Re: Re:;Question re bullying

[Guest guest]

Just wondering ,

If bullying is an NT trait,how come it happens in ASD/AS too?

Doesnt that sugest some psycho dynamic thats not a socially related thing?

Ive been bullied BAD by AS people too.

Couldnt it just simply be the fear of any real or imagined difference,and the

need to keep it away,from oneself,and as an extension of that, ones kin.?

anna

Klein wrote:

wrote:

> Can you prove this other then stating your personal opinion? It

> certainly isn't in the diagnostic criteria ( " ACs will not bully " ), it

> certainly hasn't been proven by studies, etc. It's been proven by

> and a few other ACs who seem particularly attached to this

> belief. It has not been actually proven. " Not bullying " and " not

> having NT social skills " are not the same thing, either.

If you read about bullying, and the reasons for that bullying, you will

see that the reasons given are the same things that other texts describe

as core deficiencies in autistic people. I don't suppose that anyone

has done a study particularly to find out if autistics would bully

others if they made up the majority of the population, since it is not a

terribly likely thing to happen.

What I can offer, other than what I wrote in the preceding paragraph, is

that I have seen all too well what NTs do. I have seen them submit to

the group mentality and cheer the bullies as they attack their friends.

The things that cause this are the very things we are " impaired " for not

having, according to NT-centric autism experts. I can compare what I

know about autism, from the books, my observation of the varied

autistics I know and have known, as well as myself, against what I see

in the thousands of NTs I have known. And I really have to wonder how

you don't see it-- it's kind of like you are telling me that there is no

proof that the sky is blue. All you have to do is look, honestly, at

how NTs are, with an understanding of how their minds work (you can

gather that from the autism texts-- while the goal of the authors is to

explain how autistics differ from NTs, the reverse can be done with

minimal interpolation), and the conclusion I reach is really pretty obvious.

In contrast to that... you demand proof, ignoring the anecdotal data I

have, but you have no proof either. I cannot help but conclude that

your analysis of this has missed the point, given the attention you have

given to the red herrings of the fallacies that autistics are not

capable of thinking bad things (which is one I had never heard before),

and that the things that NTs do to bully are so obviously in line with

what it means to be NT that I cannot imagine anyone missing that (even

an NT).

> I stand by my statement that if the world was 90% AC, there would be

> just as many cases of bullying, except the NTs would be the ones

> having this discussion.

And I stand by mine that it would be almost unknown.

> I've been bullied by a single person without peer dynamics.

The lack of people around in the short term does not mean that peer

dynamics do not come into play. The fact that peer dymanics have been

there in many other cases serve to make it a habit. In addition, an

NT's own image is based in large part in how others see him, and as such

he gets used to doing things before others in order to make himself feel

big, but that does not mean that the lack of others negates that inward

effect. There is nothing to stop the bully from bragging about his

deeds elsewhere.

> I've

> seen a lot of other people not stand up to the bully, but I know I've

> not helped when I could have - I've lost count of the number of cars

> on the side of the road I've driven past without stopping and

> helping.

I never said that doing nothing was the same as bullying. When people

get the mob mentality, they don't do nothing; they participate... they

actively encourage the bully, and see him as admirable for what he has

done. They laugh at the victim and vicariously enjoy the power felt by

the bully (and that type of thing is a criterion for autism in one of

the standards sets). That is FAR different than standing by passively.

Standing by passively may not discourage the act, but it does not

encourage it, either. The NT mentality encourages bullying, and this is

true whether every act of bullying is witnessed or not.

The fact that you miss the point so often on this issue (like when you

decried the " autistic as angel " thing that you seemed to think I was

suggesting, which I had not even heard before), and keep rebutting

things that I have not said or even slightly suggested, makes me think

that your analysis of the issue is flawed. I don't know how to explain

it any more effectively than I have. All people have the capacity to be

mean and nasty, but it is the tendency for NTs to have a mob mentality,

a tendency that we do not have, almost by definition, that makes

bullying the problem that it is. Bullying is part and parcel of being

an NT; it is an extension of the so-called social skills that they have,

which can be seen in the autism texts... these are the social skills

we're supposed to be defective for not having.

> I've been bullied by groups.

>

> And I've seen ACs do all of that - do it alone, ignore others doing

> it, and do it as a group.

Your interpretation of what you have seen may be as flawed as your

interpretation of the argument I have offered. The basis for the idea

that bullying is inherent to NTs can be seen readily in the texts; it is

not hard to find. Certainly, it is easy to observe for yourself, as was

evident earlier in this thread when Jeanette and I discussed bullying

that took place in our lives. The two-faced duplicitousness that all of

those NTs exhibited is a hallmark of NT mentality, not of autistic

mentality.

The fact that you have seen things that you interpret as bullying by

people that claim to be " AC " (which is an abbreviation for air

conditioning or alternating current in my mind) does not disprove the

idea that it is an inherent NT trait. Even if you saw autistics doing

it in a real way, that would not prove that they do it just as much, or

that they would do it at all if they had not been raised in a world in

which they were repeatedly told that they had value only if they act

like normal people, and that they would be treated better if they played

the social hierarchy NT game. Understanding social hierarchies, and

caring about them, is a thing inherent in NTs; the texts describe

deficiency in this as an autistic impairment.

There are a lot of things that are not inherent in autistics, things

that autistics can learn to do anyway, because the NTs force the issue.

Look how many autistics feel compelled to chit chat, be social, play NT

every day, because their jobs or other things depend on being normal.

The fact that they do these things does not mean that the traits in

question are just as common in autistics as NTs, or that they are in

fact inherent in those autistics that show those traits; it means that

the autistics have decided to mimic them as a means of survival. I have

illustrated the basis of my statements that bullying is inherent in

NT-ism, both in terms of evolutionary theory and in terms of fundamental

differences, as described in many autism texts, and in my own

corroborative observations in conjunction with what I have read.

Stand-alone anecdotal observations, especially of the hear-say variety,

do nothing to disprove that.

Bullying is an NT trait; that's just the way it is. It is so much so

that it is ingrained into culture, and probably all cultures in one

degree or another. NTs are the basis for those cultures. Our numbers

are so small as to have little cultural significance in the short term.

If we formed the culture, it would be our tendencies that were virtually

codified into that culture, and mob mentality, social

hierarchicalization, excessive concern for social status, and other NT

perseverations would not be the focus of that culture.

[Guest guest]

anna wim wrote:

> Just wondering , If bullying is an NT trait,how come it happens

> in ASD/AS too?

Lots of NT traits happen in ASD/AS. We live among them, and most of us

grow up with varying degrees of pressure to be like them, if not to be

one of them exactly. A lot of us mimic a lot of NT things, and some of

these things become fairly well ingrained. It does not make these

things inherent to those people, even if they can be shown doing them.

That is why anecdotal observations where ASD types have been observed to

bully others don't prove that bullying is as much an ASD trait as it is

an NT trait.

If you look at broad-scale NT bullying, and look at what the reasons for

that bullying are, you will see that those reasons are in areas that

autistics are, by definition, " impaired " by NT standards. Bullying as

such requires a group mentality, and that is something that autistics do

not inherently have. It requires understanding of social hierarchy,

which is not inherent in spectrum people either. This is all

well-documented in various texts and papers. The fact that some adult

autistics, and some adolescent autistics, through whatever means, opt to

participate in social hierarchy does not mean that it is inherent within

their neurology. In fact, the opposite is demonstrably true; the

existence of that social hierarchy in the minds of some autistics is a

learned behavior, one that the individual autistic found necessary to

live in an often hostile world in which NTs make the rules.

That is why I suggest that if we were the majority, if we made the

rules, bullying would not be common. The NT mentality of social

ordering and conformity would not be shoved down our throats from the

day we were born, and we would not be the same as we are now. We're not

simply products of our genetics or our neurology; each of us is a

mixture of our genetics and our life experiences. And for the vast

majority of autistics, that life experience has been one that teaches us

that we are only acceptable if we emulate NT behavior, and live by NT

rules. Some of us take this to heart more than others.

> Doesnt that sugest some psycho dynamic thats not a socially related

> thing? Ive been bullied BAD by AS people too. Couldnt it just simply

> be the fear of any real or imagined difference,and the need to keep

> it away,from oneself,and as an extension of that, ones kin.? anna

Anyone has the capacity to be cruel. In fact, many autistics may be

more cruel than an average NT, because they lack empathy for other

living beings. I certainly have limited empathy, and it does show at

times. However, and I have said this before, without the social dynamic

of the NT pack animal, it is nothing more than an interpersonal

conflict. People have conflicts with others all the time. It takes the

NT social hierarchy to make interpersonal conflict into broad-scale

bullying. And I too have known of ASD types that have participated in

that NT social dynamic. They were tired of being picked on, so they

decided to switch sides. A somewhat rational, if unethical, choice. In

the NT world, you have to pick a side; you have to be on the side of the

abusers if you are not going to be on the side of the abused. They

don't see the third choice, which is not to participate at all. And

when the NTs run the world, their blindness to the third choice makes it

a less viable choice for autistics that would otherwise pick the third

choice.

[Guest guest]

, I just want to say that I disagree. I think I know the reasons *I*

did this behavior better then you can.

Autistics are impaired in communication, too. In fact it is a diagnostic.

Does this mean that speech is an NT trait?

> Date: Sun, 15 Feb 2004 21:50:25 -0700

>

> Reply-To: AutisticSpectrumTreeHouse

> To: AutisticSpectrumTreeHouse

> Subject: Re: Re:;Question re bullying

>

> anna wim wrote:

>

> > Just wondering , If bullying is an NT trait,how come it happens

> > in ASD/AS too?

>

> Lots of NT traits happen in ASD/AS. We live among them, and most of us

> grow up with varying degrees of pressure to be like them, if not to be

> one of them exactly. A lot of us mimic a lot of NT things, and some of

> these things become fairly well ingrained. It does not make these

> things inherent to those people, even if they can be shown doing them.

> That is why anecdotal observations where ASD types have been observed to

> bully others don't prove that bullying is as much an ASD trait as it is

> an NT trait.

>

> If you look at broad-scale NT bullying, and look at what the reasons for

> that bullying are, you will see that those reasons are in areas that

> autistics are, by definition, " impaired " by NT standards. Bullying as

> such requires a group mentality, and that is something that autistics do

> not inherently have. It requires understanding of social hierarchy,

> which is not inherent in spectrum people either. This is all

> well-documented in various texts and papers. The fact that some adult

> autistics, and some adolescent autistics, through whatever means, opt to

> participate in social hierarchy does not mean that it is inherent within

> their neurology. In fact, the opposite is demonstrably true; the

> existence of that social hierarchy in the minds of some autistics is a

> learned behavior, one that the individual autistic found necessary to

> live in an often hostile world in which NTs make the rules.

>

> That is why I suggest that if we were the majority, if we made the

> rules, bullying would not be common. The NT mentality of social

> ordering and conformity would not be shoved down our throats from the

> day we were born, and we would not be the same as we are now. We're not

> simply products of our genetics or our neurology; each of us is a

> mixture of our genetics and our life experiences. And for the vast

> majority of autistics, that life experience has been one that teaches us

> that we are only acceptable if we emulate NT behavior, and live by NT

> rules. Some of us take this to heart more than others.

>

>

> > Doesnt that sugest some psycho dynamic thats not a socially related

> > thing? Ive been bullied BAD by AS people too. Couldnt it just simply

> > be the fear of any real or imagined difference,and the need to keep

> > it away,from oneself,and as an extension of that, ones kin.? anna

>

> Anyone has the capacity to be cruel. In fact, many autistics may be

> more cruel than an average NT, because they lack empathy for other

> living beings. I certainly have limited empathy, and it does show at

> times. However, and I have said this before, without the social dynamic

> of the NT pack animal, it is nothing more than an interpersonal

> conflict. People have conflicts with others all the time. It takes the

> NT social hierarchy to make interpersonal conflict into broad-scale

> bullying. And I too have known of ASD types that have participated in

> that NT social dynamic. They were tired of being picked on, so they

> decided to switch sides. A somewhat rational, if unethical, choice. In

> the NT world, you have to pick a side; you have to be on the side of the

> abusers if you are not going to be on the side of the abused. They

> don't see the third choice, which is not to participate at all. And

> when the NTs run the world, their blindness to the third choice makes it

> a less viable choice for autistics that would otherwise pick the third

> choice.

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

[Guest guest]

wrote:

> , I just want to say that I disagree.

You've already said that many times. You don't have to say that each

and every time you see something with which you disagree. I remember

your opinion on the matter.

> I think I know the reasons *I* did this behavior better then you can.

I was not talking to or about you in the post. And I don't know that

you know the reasons any better than anyone else. People delude

themselves all the time. You have had nothing but your own anecdotal

observations to support your assertion, and I have already indicated why

anecdotal observations are not useful. I have anecdotal observations

too, and mine lead me to a different view than yours. The rest of my

argument, I think, you have not grasped, because all of your rebuttals

in the previous letters in the thread were not even relevant-- they were

all about things I had not even said.

> Autistics are impaired in communication, too. In fact it is a

> diagnostic. Does this mean that speech is an NT trait?

Yes, to a large degree it is.

[Guest guest]

> I was not talking to or about you in the post. And I don't know that

> you know the reasons any better than anyone else. People delude

> themselves all the time. You have had nothing but your own anecdotal

> observations to support your assertion, and I have already indicated why

> anecdotal observations are not useful. I have anecdotal observations

> too, and mine lead me to a different view than yours. The rest of my

> argument, I think, you have not grasped, because all of your rebuttals

> in the previous letters in the thread were not even relevant-- they were

> all about things I had not even said.

Actually, it is a *counter-example*, not an anecdote.

I guess I really do have a hard time understanding you, though. And

possibly you of me.

--