Guest guest Posted June 28, 2011 Report Share Posted June 28, 2011 Well said. And that balance reflects individuation, doesn't it? Helps us see where to open. I liked the description of the sitter. That was so my oldest daughter. She would observe -- and move when she was ready. Now she teaches at a large university and was a wonderful ballerina. That careful understanding of when to sit back as a parent and not push. Lots of observing needs to be done for that, too. Control has to come from within, yet as a parent we're so pro-active... I'm also thinking -- how often do we have the opportunity to speak in front of groups? I'm fine in a small group, and especially without a hard and fast script. But before a large crowd, I start to stutter and knees knock so loudly that no one would hear anyway. Would experience and practice change this? I'm not sure. Spontaneity is my forte, because I have to get caught up in the issue in a direct way to actually *think* about it. With writing, you can form and map out the model of your thought. But speaking before a group without feedback... Um. Hard. The wanting to not be wrong. Yes; hello school. But also there is wanting to make yourself understood or to understand. The recurring nightmare in my stable is one of not communicating. Dialing an old rotary phone that has no sop on the dial. School budgets are being cut back, band programs cut, and so much after-school time is the Internet. Maybe we'll get better at writing, which will make us better communicators and thinkers -- but there is that challenge thing, putting yourself out there with so much easy anonymous sniping that you see on comment pages. Not to mention the profiling and personalization which makes even our simplest google search self rewarding. Robot do the deciding, collecting, pulling up trends, no models involved. No thinking. No human intuition. Or -- maybe -- moving to pure intuition? What is factored in and out? The manipulation and self-fulling prophecies. How do they lead and shape? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted June 28, 2011 Report Share Posted June 28, 2011 No " stop " on the dial. Typing is also a good skill to cultivate. We jump ahead. > Well said. And that balance reflects individuation, doesn't it? Helps us see > where to open. > I liked the description of the sitter. That was so my oldest daughter. She > would observe -- and move when she was ready. Now she teaches at a large > university and was a wonderful ballerina. That careful understanding of when > to sit back as a parent and not push. Lots of observing needs to be done for > that, too. Control has to come from within, yet as a parent we're so > pro-active... > I'm also thinking -- how often do we have the opportunity to speak in front > of groups? I'm fine in a small group, and especially without a hard and fast > script. But before a large crowd, I start to stutter and knees knock so > loudly that no one would hear anyway. Would experience and practice change > this? I'm not sure. Spontaneity is my forte, because I have to get caught up > in the issue in a direct way to actually *think* about it. With writing, you > can form and map out the model of your thought. But speaking before a group > without feedback... Um. Hard. > The wanting to not be wrong. Yes; hello school. But also there is wanting to > make yourself understood or to understand. The recurring nightmare in my > stable is one of not communicating. Dialing an old rotary phone that has no > sop on the dial. > School budgets are being cut back, band programs cut, and so > much after-school time is the Internet. Maybe we'll get better at writing, > which will make us better communicators and thinkers -- but there is that > challenge thing, putting yourself out there with so much easy anonymous > sniping that you see on comment pages. Not to mention the profiling > and personalization which makes even our simplest google search self > rewarding. Robot do the deciding, collecting, pulling up trends, no models > involved. No thinking. No human intuition. Or -- maybe -- moving to pure > intuition? What is factored in and out? The manipulation and self-fulling > prophecies. How do they lead and shape? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted June 28, 2011 Report Share Posted June 28, 2011 shyness as i read it (and i am desperately shy) is just another form of what the Tantric Buddhists would call pride and arrogance... a misreading of the fundamental equal nature of all that exists...i agree with deb that it has to do with communication and wanting to be understood, but it also has to do with needing to know for yourself that you have done right... this doesn't necessarily demand an audience, and, as eve says, recognition can be as misplaced and painful as it can an index of success and therefore pleasing... i worked as a solo musician from ages 16 to 33... i'm still recovering from a lot of that.-- Take more time, cover less ground. ~ Merton - Dancing In The Waters of LifeAbove all, don't wish to become a future Buddha. Your only concernas thought follows thought,should be to avoid clinging to any of them. ~Dogen Zenji (1200 - 1253) To practice self-liberating thoughts, whatever thought arises in your mind, just look at it and let go and relax. Look straight at its essential nature and let go and relax; it will be self-liberated. Do not concern yourself with what you are thinking about. Do not concern yourself with the object of your thoughts, whether it is a person or a thing. Just look at the essence of the thought itself. ~From The Melody of Dharmata: Verses on the Profound View of the Middle Way, by Khenpo Tsultrim Gyamtso Rinpoche, translated by Ari Goldfield & Jim , P.47. Please consider the environment before printing this e-mail. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted June 28, 2011 Report Share Posted June 28, 2011 AHa. Alice suggests you offer you work up, let it fly off like a bird just as it came to you. Tantric, as you point out. That helps, that model. Both ways... shyness as i read it (and i am desperately shy) is just another form of what the Tantric Buddhists would call pride and arrogance... a misreading of the fundamental equal nature of all that exists...i agree with deb that it has to do with communication and wanting to be understood, but it also has to do with needing to know for yourself that you have done right... this doesn't necessarily demand an audience, and, as eve says, recognition can be as misplaced and painful as it can an index of success and therefore pleasing... i worked as a solo musician from ages 16 to 33... i'm still recovering from a lot of that.-- Take more time, cover less ground. ~ Merton - Dancing In The Waters of LifeAbove all, don't wish to become a future Buddha. Your only concernas thought follows thought,should be to avoid clinging to any of them. ~Dogen Zenji (1200 - 1253) To practice self-liberating thoughts, whatever thought arises in your mind, just look at it and let go and relax. Look straight at its essential nature and let go and relax; it will be self-liberated. Do not concern yourself with what you are thinking about. Do not concern yourself with the object of your thoughts, whether it is a person or a thing. Just look at the essence of the thought itself. ~From The Melody of Dharmata: Verses on the Profound View of the Middle Way, by Khenpo Tsultrim Gyamtso Rinpoche, translated by Ari Goldfield & Jim , P.47. Please consider the environment before printing this e-mail. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted June 28, 2011 Report Share Posted June 28, 2011 And -- Thank you. All. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted June 28, 2011 Report Share Posted June 28, 2011 Alice suggests you offer you work up, let it fly off like a bird just as it came to you. *oh i agree 100000%!!! - the only reason i mention my 'work' was to illustrate painfulness... i still do play and sing in public from time to time, and would love to go back to doing it but not right now (as Gillian Welch sez in Miss Ohio) -- Take more time, cover less ground. ~ Merton - Dancing In The Waters of LifeAbove all, don't wish to become a future Buddha. Your only concernas thought follows thought,should be to avoid clinging to any of them. ~Dogen Zenji (1200 - 1253) To practice self-liberating thoughts, whatever thought arises in your mind, just look at it and let go and relax. Look straight at its essential nature and let go and relax; it will be self-liberated. Do not concern yourself with what you are thinking about. Do not concern yourself with the object of your thoughts, whether it is a person or a thing. Just look at the essence of the thought itself. ~From The Melody of Dharmata: Verses on the Profound View of the Middle Way, by Khenpo Tsultrim Gyamtso Rinpoche, translated by Ari Goldfield & Jim , P.47. Please consider the environment before printing this e-mail. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted June 28, 2011 Report Share Posted June 28, 2011 Big smile. I was thinking of all our work, all our shy, even all our pride and arrogance!  Word: arrogance Latin [edit]Alternative forms adrogantia [edit]Etymology From arrogÄns, present active participle of arrogÅ (“arrogate to myself, assumeâ€). word: arrogÅ dit] Alternative forms adrogÅ [edit]Etymology From ad (“to, towards, atâ€) + rogÅ (“ask; requestâ€). [edit]Pronunciation (Classical) IPA: /ˈar.ro.É¡oË/ [edit]Verb present active arrogÅ, present infinitive arrogÄre, perfect active arrogÄvÄ«, supine arrogÄtum. I claim as my own, arrogate to myself, assume. I assign, attribute. I confer upon or procure for someone. (law) I ask or inquire of someone, question. (law) I associate with someone, place by the side of someone. and for dessert:  http://www.despair.com/arrogance.html how grok this?  *oh i agree 100000%!!! - the only reason i mention my 'work' was to illustrate painfulness... i still do play and sing in public from time to time, and would love to go back to doing it but not right now (as Gillian Welch sez in Miss Ohio) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted June 28, 2011 Report Share Posted June 28, 2011 the Tibetan word is interesting.nga gyalnga = I, me. gyal = conqueror, king -- Take more time, cover less ground. ~ Merton - Dancing In The Waters of LifeAbove all, don't wish to become a future Buddha. Your only concernas thought follows thought,should be to avoid clinging to any of them. ~Dogen Zenji (1200 - 1253) To practice self-liberating thoughts, whatever thought arises in your mind, just look at it and let go and relax. Look straight at its essential nature and let go and relax; it will be self-liberated. Do not concern yourself with what you are thinking about. Do not concern yourself with the object of your thoughts, whether it is a person or a thing. Just look at the essence of the thought itself. ~From The Melody of Dharmata: Verses on the Profound View of the Middle Way, by Khenpo Tsultrim Gyamtso Rinpoche, translated by Ari Goldfield & Jim , P.47. Please consider the environment before printing this e-mail. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted June 28, 2011 Report Share Posted June 28, 2011 There was an interesting article, I think in Psychology Today, being discussed on face book recently about the self esteem and the way we use it's absence almost as a clinical diagnosis. Shyness, likewise is characterized as a social anxiety disorder. Both are about protecting and building the ego which is fine to a degree; we need a healthy ego to live in the world, but it is far better to teach our children to be genuinely present; accepting themselves and others as they are with kindness and compassion.. Suzanne One does not become enlightened by imagining figures of light, but by making the darkness conscious." – Carl Gustav Jung Surprisingly though, an understanding I got from Eckhart Tolle fairly recently changed that. What Tolle said was that shyness is often the need not to appear wrong (the NYT article says it too): protecting and building the ego. That's true, I realized, and I'm not at a stage of life where I should need to do that. It was a deep understanding. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted June 28, 2011 Report Share Posted June 28, 2011 i'll drink to that, Suzanne... after the eclipse on Friday, though.....-- Take more time, cover less ground. ~ Merton - Dancing In The Waters of LifeAbove all, don't wish to become a future Buddha. Your only concernas thought follows thought,should be to avoid clinging to any of them. ~Dogen Zenji (1200 - 1253) To practice self-liberating thoughts, whatever thought arises in your mind, just look at it and let go and relax. Look straight at its essential nature and let go and relax; it will be self-liberated. Do not concern yourself with what you are thinking about. Do not concern yourself with the object of your thoughts, whether it is a person or a thing. Just look at the essence of the thought itself. ~From The Melody of Dharmata: Verses on the Profound View of the Middle Way, by Khenpo Tsultrim Gyamtso Rinpoche, translated by Ari Goldfield & Jim , P.47. Please consider the environment before printing this e-mail. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted June 28, 2011 Report Share Posted June 28, 2011 big eclipse on Friday? One does not become enlightened by imagining figures of light, but by making the darkness conscious." – Carl Gustav Jung i'll drink to that, Suzanne... after the eclipse on Friday, though... ... -- Take more time, cover less ground.~ Merton - Dancing In The Waters of LifeAbove all, don't wish to become a future Buddha.Your only concernas thought follows thought,should be to avoid clinging to any of them.~Dogen Zenji (1200 - 1253) To practice self-liberating thoughts, whatever thought arises in your mind, just look at it and let go and relax. Look straight at its essential nature and let go and relax; it will be self-liberated. Do not concern yourself with what you are thinking about. Do not concern yourself with the object of your thoughts, whether it is a person or a thing. Just look at the essence of the thought itself. ~From The Melody of Dharmata: Verses on the Profound View of the Middle Way, by Khenpo Tsultrim Gyamtso Rinpoche, translated by Ari Goldfield & Jim , P.47.Please consider the environment before printing this e-mail. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted June 28, 2011 Report Share Posted June 28, 2011 no. a partial solar one visible only from the Antarctic, but it falls on the final day of Saga Dawa, the month in which, according to Tibetan tradition, the Buddha was born, attained enlightenment and also entered Parinirvana. Tibetan word for shyness, by the way, is ngo tsa, though it also means something more like modesty, which i think is where that balance lies, no? -- Take more time, cover less ground. ~ Merton - Dancing In The Waters of LifeAbove all, don't wish to become a future Buddha. Your only concernas thought follows thought,should be to avoid clinging to any of them. ~Dogen Zenji (1200 - 1253) To practice self-liberating thoughts, whatever thought arises in your mind, just look at it and let go and relax. Look straight at its essential nature and let go and relax; it will be self-liberated. Do not concern yourself with what you are thinking about. Do not concern yourself with the object of your thoughts, whether it is a person or a thing. Just look at the essence of the thought itself. ~From The Melody of Dharmata: Verses on the Profound View of the Middle Way, by Khenpo Tsultrim Gyamtso Rinpoche, translated by Ari Goldfield & Jim , P.47. Please consider the environment before printing this e-mail. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted June 28, 2011 Report Share Posted June 28, 2011 shyness as i read it (and i am desperately shy) is just another form of what the Tantric Buddhists would call pride and arrogance... a misreading of the fundamental equal nature of all that exists... I remember reading that somewhere a long time ago and while it gave me reason to investigate that part of me and discovered that much of my shyness was, indeed, all about me, me, me, it wasn't the whole of it. I did learn to be less self-centered in groups but I'm still shy in many ways. I also remembered that somewhere in the back of my consciousness was an admonition to "not be arrogant" and I could never figure that out or where it came from. I had nothing to be arrogant about. I'm still trying to understand that. I took a speech class that helped me to understand that, in most cases, your audience wants you to do well and they're pulling for you. After all, they don't want to have to sit through an excruciatingly boring talk. That's a bit of pressure to do well, of course, and shy folks don't want to make that misstep or whatever, but it helps knowing that the energy coming from the audience is generally overwhelmingly positive. That helps avoid the feared misstep. Blissings,SamSearch for Soulhttps://sampatron.wordpress.comJust because I believe something doesn't mean it's true.Just because I don't believe something doesn't mean it's untrue.Don't believe everything you think. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted June 28, 2011 Report Share Posted June 28, 2011 Greetings " I also remembered that somewhere in the back of my consciousness was an admonition to "not be arrogant" and I could never figure that out or where it came from. I had nothing to be arrogant about. I'm still trying to understand that." Boy does that resonate. I had/have the same experience which I have translated into a position that I will willingly address any question, but am very hesitant to volunteer information on any subject that does not appear absolutely necessary. Makes it hard to engage in email discussions. Sigh. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted June 29, 2011 Report Share Posted June 29, 2011 ..... One does not become enlightened by imagining figures of light, but by making the darkness conscious. " Carl Gustav Jung Can you tell me the source of that quote? Thanks, APMW Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted June 29, 2011 Report Share Posted June 29, 2011 No "stop" on the dial. Typing is also a good skill to cultivate. We jump ahead. On Tue, Jun 28, 2011 at 11:57 AM, dm conner wrote: > Well said. And that balance reflects individuation, doesn't it? Helps us see > where to open. > I liked the description of the sitter. That was so my oldest daughter. She > would observe -- and move when she was ready. Now she teaches at a large > university and was a wonderful ballerina. That careful understanding of when > to sit back as a parent and not push. Lots of observing needs to be done for > that, too. Control has to come from within, yet as a parent we're so > pro-active... > I'm also thinking -- how often do we have the opportunity to speak in front > of groups? I'm fine in a small group, and especially without a hard and fast > script. But before a large crowd, I start to stutter and knees knock so > loudly that no one would hear anyway. Would experience and practice change > this? I'm not sure. Spontaneity is my forte, because I have to get caught up > in the issue in a direct way to actually *think* about it. With writing, you > can form and map out the model of your thought. But speaking before a group > without feedback... Um. Hard. > The wanting to not be wrong. Yes; hello school. But also there is wanting to > make yourself understood or to understand. The recurring nightmare in my > stable is one of not communicating. Dialing an old rotary phone that has no > sop on the dial. > School budgets are being cut back, band programs cut, and so > much after-school time is the Internet. Maybe we'll get better at writing, > which will make us better communicators and thinkers -- but there is that > challenge thing, putting yourself out there with so much easy anonymous > sniping that you see on comment pages. Not to mention the profiling > and personalization which makes even our simplest google search self > rewarding. Robot do the deciding, collecting, pulling up trends, no models > involved. No thinking. No human intuition. Or -- maybe -- moving to pure > intuition? What is factored in and out? The manipulation and self-fulling > prophecies. How do they lead and shape? I preferred "sop" :-). Watkins Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted June 29, 2011 Report Share Posted June 29, 2011 'to cerberus' or 'milk', Dan? -- Take more time, cover less ground. ~ Merton - Dancing In The Waters of LifeAbove all, don't wish to become a future Buddha. Your only concernas thought follows thought,should be to avoid clinging to any of them. ~Dogen Zenji (1200 - 1253) To practice self-liberating thoughts, whatever thought arises in your mind, just look at it and let go and relax. Look straight at its essential nature and let go and relax; it will be self-liberated. Do not concern yourself with what you are thinking about. Do not concern yourself with the object of your thoughts, whether it is a person or a thing. Just look at the essence of the thought itself. ~From The Melody of Dharmata: Verses on the Profound View of the Middle Way, by Khenpo Tsultrim Gyamtso Rinpoche, translated by Ari Goldfield & Jim , P.47. Please consider the environment before printing this e-mail. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted June 29, 2011 Report Share Posted June 29, 2011 'to cerberus' or 'milk', Dan? -- Take more time, cover less ground. ~ Merton - Dancing In The Waters of Life Above all, don't wish to become a future Buddha. Your only concern as thought follows thought, should be to avoid clinging to any of them. ~Dogen Zenji (1200 - 1253) To practice self-liberating thoughts, whatever thought arises in your mind, just look at it and let go and relax. Look straight at its essential nature and let go and relax; it will be self-liberated. Do not concern yourself with what you are thinking about. Do not concern yourself with the object of your thoughts, whether it is a person or a thing. Just look at the essence of the thought itself. ~From The Melody of Dharmata: Verses on the Profound View of the Middle Way, by Khenpo Tsultrim Gyamtso Rinpoche, translated by Ari Goldfield & Jim , P.47. Please consider the environment before printing this e-mail. The first, I guess. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted June 29, 2011 Report Share Posted June 29, 2011 Should also have been as parents, except I don't want to speak for others. Fingers fly heavy and thoughts leave them in the dust. No " stop " on the dial. Typing is also a good skill to cultivate. We jump ahead. On Tue, Jun 28, 2011 at 11:57 AM, dm conner wrote: > Well said. And that balance reflects individuation, doesn't it? Helps us see > where to open. > I liked the description of the sitter. That was so my oldest daughter. She > would observe -- and move when she was ready. Now she teaches at a large > university and was a wonderful ballerina. That careful understanding of when > to sit back as a parent and not push. Lots of observing needs to be done for > that, too. Control has to come from within, yet as a parent we're so > pro-active... > I'm also thinking -- how often do we have the opportunity to speak in front > of groups? I'm fine in a small group, and especially without a hard and fast > script. But before a large crowd, I start to stutter and knees knock so > loudly that no one would hear anyway. Would experience and practice change > this? I'm not sure. Spontaneity is my forte, because I have to get caught up > in the issue in a direct way to actually *think* about it. With writing, you > can form and map out the model of your thought. But speaking before a group > without feedback... Um. Hard. > The wanting to not be wrong. Yes; hello school. But also there is wanting to > make yourself understood or to understand. The recurring nightmare in my > stable is one of not communicating. Dialing an old rotary phone that has no > sop on the dial. > School budgets are being cut back, band programs cut, and so > much after-school time is the Internet. Maybe we'll get better at writing, > which will make us better communicators and thinkers -- but there is that > challenge thing, putting yourself out there with so much easy anonymous > sniping that you see on comment pages. Not to mention the profiling > and personalization which makes even our simplest google search self > rewarding. Robot do the deciding, collecting, pulling up trends, no models > involved. No thinking. No human intuition. Or -- maybe -- moving to pure > intuition? What is factored in and out? The manipulation and self-fulling > prophecies. How do they lead and shape? I preferred " sop " :-). Watkins Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted June 30, 2011 Report Share Posted June 30, 2011 Thanks! The context is also very helpful. APMW > > Filling the conscious mind with ideal conceptions is a characteristic of > Western theosophy, but not the confrontation with the shadow and the world > of darkness. One does not become enlightened by imagining figures of light, > but by making the darkness conscious. > > " The Philosophical Tree " (1945). In CW 13: Alchemical Studies. P.335 > > > > > -- > Take more time, cover less ground. > ~ Merton - *Dancing In The Waters of Life** > > > *Above all, don't wish to become a future Buddha. > Your only concern > as thought follows thought, > should be to avoid clinging to any of them. > ~Dogen Zenji (1200 - 1253) > > > > To practice self-liberating thoughts, whatever thought arises in your mind, > just look at it and let go and relax. Look straight at its essential nature > and let go and relax; it will be self-liberated. Do not concern yourself > with what you are thinking about. Do not concern yourself with the object of > your thoughts, whether it is a person or a thing. Just look at the essence > of the thought itself. > > ~From *The Melody of Dharmata: Verses on the Profound View of the Middle Way > *, by Khenpo Tsultrim Gyamtso Rinpoche, translated by Ari Goldfield & Jim > , P.47. > > Please consider the environment before printing this e-mail. > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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