Re: Sort of new member

[Guest guest]

This message from Kaiden Fox arched across the cosmos:

>(Which is pissy, since I was obviously working third shift, and obviously up

>past my bed time, which I believe makes things slightly less obvious to all

>involved).

Hmm, less obvious for you? I'm curious, why -- how would that work?

When I've been tired out in the past, my autism would have been more

obvious rather than less so, simply because I'd be too fatigued to be

anything other than myself. (I do become hyper if I keep active despite

being tired, but that makes me act even more bizarrely.) The incidence of

meltdowns is also related to how tired I am, as that depends largely on how

patient I can manage to be with the world when it is annoying me.

DeGraf ~*~ blog http://sonic.net/mustang/moggy

" If the abnormal goes on long enough it becomes the normal. "

-- Terry Pratchett

[Guest guest]

Re: Sort of new member

> This message from Kaiden Fox arched across the cosmos:

> >(Which is pissy, since I was obviously working third shift, and obviously

up

> >past my bed time, which I believe makes things slightly less obvious to

all

> >involved).

>

> Hmm, less obvious for you? I'm curious, why -- how would that work?

Oops, forgot that I was actually involved. Actually, yes, it did make my

autism slightly less obvious to myself, because I was asking " autism or

fatigue? " every time I had momentary lapse of perfection. For example, one

math problem I had to skip because I couldn't " parse " what the tester was

saying, and I couldn't solve both possible interpretations without being

completely confused. The fatigue also erroded my attention span for the

" recite this string of numbers back to me in reverse " testing section.

Since sleep replenishes neurotransmitter levels, and fatigue means that

one's neurotransmitters are depleated, does the test showing " this person is

slow moving and has trouble concentrating " mean " we are dealing with an

autistic individual " or does it mean, " I think Kaiden needs a nappy-poo,

don't you? "

> When I've been tired out in the past, my autism would have been more

> obvious rather than less so, simply because I'd be too fatigued to be

> anything other than myself. (I do become hyper if I keep active despite

> being tired, but that makes me act even more bizarrely.) The incidence of

> meltdowns is also related to how tired I am, as that depends largely on

how

> patient I can manage to be with the world when it is annoying me.

Yeah, my Saturday Night meltdown was dirrectly related to being kept up for

nearly 24 hours on Thursday. That, and I didn't take my venlafaxine because

I was trying to " reset " myself. I realize now that my venlafaxine is

*deeply* integrated into my normal neurological functioning. That is to

say, I have a " physical addiction " to it, and my brain has adjusted to the

point where it NEEDS the chemical in order to function normally. I didn't

realize this before. I mean, I knew I experienced physical pain, fatigue

and anxiety without it, but I didn't realize that I was MUCH more prone to

meltdowns, because I've usually been in a meltdown-free situation when I've

been dose-less.

I also had a Theory Of Mind fuck-up. Because I have experienced

substance-abuse issues in the past, and Atavan is a habit-forming controlled

substance, when I lost my Atavan in October, I decided not to mention it

until I saw my psychiatrist next time. I should have, would have, could

have TOLD him I lost my chemical straight jacket, and that I would like

another set of pills for the protection of myself and others. Obvious to

many hyperlexics, " Atavan " can sooth the most " beastly " of people. And with

my wonderfully autistic neurology, half a milligram do the trick quite

nicely dispite my obese body and otherwise massive drug tolorances (e.g.,

I'm a nine aspirin type of guy).

I'm going to get the results of my testing in less than 12 hours. If they

come back negative, I'll start asking, " then how come I react to eggnog as

if it was a mild intoxicant? It's it a reaction to the effexor, or is it

the casein stimulating opiod reactors? And, if it's a purely psychological

reaction, why the increase in temperature, tachycardia, increase in skin

temperature, and decrease in fine motor coordination, coupled with REALLY

STINKY FARTS? " If he says it's all in my head, I'll ask him if he'd like to

observe an eggnog reaction, and then fart in his office until he passes

out... and then take his wallet.

Sure, I'll still be officially neurotypical, but I'll be a neurotypical with

someone else's wallet and an eggnog-induced stupor.

____________________

" I'm easily confused. It's part of my boyish charm. "

-- Kaiden Fox

[Guest guest]

> I'm going to get the results of my testing in less than 12 hours.

> If they come back negative, I'll start asking, " then how come I

> react to eggnog as if it was a mild intoxicant? It's it a reaction

> to the effexor, or is it the casein stimulating opiod reactors?

> And, if it's a purely psychological reaction, why the increase in

> temperature, tachycardia, increase in skin temperature, and

> decrease in fine motor coordination, coupled with REALLY STINKY

> FARTS? " If he says it's all in my head, I'll ask him if he'd like

> to observe an eggnog reaction, and then fart in his office until he

> passes out... and then take his wallet.

The only one of those that couldn't be duplicated with a

psychological reaction is the stinky farts. However, many things

diagnosed as psychological reactions are not.

[Guest guest]

> This message from Kaiden Fox arched across the cosmos:

> >(Which is pissy, since I was obviously working third shift, and

obviously up

> >past my bed time, which I believe makes things slightly less

obvious to all

> >involved).

>

> Hmm, less obvious for you? I'm curious, why -- how would that

work?

>

> When I've been tired out in the past, my autism would have

been more

> obvious rather than less so, simply because I'd be too fatigued

to be

> anything other than myself. (I do become hyper if I keep active

despite

> being tired, but that makes me act even more bizarrely.) The

incidence of

> meltdowns is also related to how tired I am, as that depends

largely on how

> patient I can manage to be with the world when it is annoying

me.

>

>

>

> DeGraf ~*~ blog http://sonic.net/mustang/moggy

> " If the abnormal goes on long enough it becomes the normal. "

> -- Terry Pratchett

I don't presume to know how relevant this will be, but...

I've always had severe/chronic sleep-disruption. Also,

considerable difficulty with anxiety and depression. Note, that it

is increasingly acknowledged in psych literature that anxiety and

depression are usually very closely linked, and it is very rare to

find people who experience one but not the other. That said, it

should be safe to regard both anxiety and depression as internal

stressors, which of course are often exacerbated by external

conditions. Stress / stimming / overload / meltdown / shutdown,

obviously, may follow as a result.

Okay, years ago, I read an article talking about how

sleep-deprivation tended to alleviate the symptoms of

depression. As I was well aware of my sleep problems, and

somewhat aware of the anxiety/depression pairing, this gave me

a lot of food for thought and self-observation. In no time, I

decided that both anxiety and depression were very much

alleviated by sleep-deprivation (not much use as a coping

strategy, but interesting, none the less).

Now, having learned about " the spectrum " , and having spent a

great deal of time evaluating internal and external stressors and

how they affect my behavior and performance...it has become

unmistakably clear that I function MUCH better after having been

awake for a good solid 16 hours or more, presuming I had slept

well before, and external stressors are otherwise manageable.

Does that make any sense? Or is this just my usual Davanoid

weirdness?

This is also based on my 2 month experiment with maintaining a

(roughly) 36 hour sleep-cycle, which worked very well, except for

the fact that the rest of the world was on a 24 hour clock. That

was long before I knew anything about ASDs. I'm hoping to try it

again, this time with more rigorous observational models, but

that won't work until I've got an abode to myself. We'll see...

:-)

Dave March

" Two distinct species of nerd are indiginous to America today:

the asshole with a high IQ, and the asshole with a low one. The

difference cannot be determined merely by observing the ways in

which they fall down. " --from The 'I Hate Preppies' Handbook

[Guest guest]

Thanks, . I was wondering about how autism would effect the body's

internal clock, after reading that problems with sleeping are a spectrum

trait. Humans, as a rule, have a 25 hour clock. The planet's rotation

causes us to adjust to a 24 hour clock, plus or minus Daylight-Screwings

Time. However, the famous experiement with people with no external stimuli

to tell them what time it is shows a change to a 25 hour cycle.

I was wondering if that cycle might be *longer* in autists, due to the

increased need for sleep *and* the increased occurance of insomnia.

While early to bed and early to rise may make a man healthy, wealthy, and

wise, staying up for 20 hours and crashing for 16 makes him autistic. This

may, however, be an IDEAL sleep schedule for maximum productivity for the

self-employed autist.

I have tried to condition myself to the " uberman " sleep schedule (four hours

awake, half hour nap, repeat), but my left eye twitches uncomfortably

whenever I'm seriously sleep deprived... and that's what happened. Everyone

told me it was stupid, but I did it anyway. When my left eye agreed, I knew

that there was no way I could win this argument.

[Guest guest]

I'm the same way. I think I would function well on a 36-hour schedule, too.

I get my second wind around 1 in the morning, after getting up at 8am. I

also function better after a single night of only 4 hours sleep, if it comes

after a sequence of 6-8-hour nights. But if I continue to get only 4 hours

sleep a night, I start to wear down. First day after is great, though.

Elayne

mommy to Brenden, Tamara, & Caitlin (10/12/1999 @ 26w2d) and Liam

(10/15/2002 @ 40w4d)

> -----Original Message-----

> From: K. March

> ...it has become

> unmistakably clear that I function MUCH better after having been

> awake for a good solid 16 hours or more, presuming I had slept

> well before, and external stressors are otherwise manageable.

>

> Does that make any sense? Or is this just my usual Davanoid

> weirdness?

[Guest guest]

Kaiden Fox wrote:

> my testing session for autism consisted of taking the AQ test and an

>IQ test. It was supposed to take two sessions, but I was told I didn't need

>to come back. Either I was obviously autistic, or obviously neurotypical.

>(Which is pissy, since I was obviously working third shift, and obviously up

>past my bed time, which I believe makes things slightly less obvious to all

>involved).

>

>

Are you referring to the AQ test from " Wired " magazine?

Are the " professionals " using that now?

(no reason they shouldn't, I suppose)

Ride the Music

AndyTiedye

[Guest guest]

--- In AutisticSpectrumTreeHouse , " Kaiden Fox "

> I

> anticipate with dread the whole " trust me, Montessori education is

> the way to go " debate I'm going to have with my girlfriend if we

> ever reproduce - but Montessori learning stops the " mutilated

> octopus " syndrome of " math at 8:00, English at 9:00, science at

> 10:00, history at 11:00 " that stops people from making connections.

> I think it's even more important for autistic or

> broader-autistic-phenotype children to be able to see the

> interrelations between every academic discipline.

The only Montessori school I ever went to was my preschool, and I

don't know how typical it is of Montessori schools, but it was

*definitely* a good learning environment for at least my sort of

autistic person.

Basically, the room was set up so that nearly anything you could do

was learning-related, but also fun. There were problems -- teachers

told me sometimes that I used objects in the " wrong " way, and I hear

they called my parents because I wouldn't play with other kids -- but

overall that seemed like a good environment to learn in. Granted, it

was only preschool, so I don't know how they handled advanced topics.

I only know that it's possibly the only school I ever liked.

[Guest guest]

alfamanda wrote:

> Basically, the room was set up so that nearly anything you could do

> was learning-related, but also fun. There were problems -- teachers

> told me sometimes that I used objects in the " wrong " way, and I hear

> they called my parents because I wouldn't play with other kids -- but

> overall that seemed like a good environment to learn in. Granted,

> it was only preschool, so I don't know how they handled advanced

> topics. I only know that it's possibly the only school I ever liked.

I don't remember my time there, except for a few snips here and there.

They were concerned that while all of the other kids would sit in a

circle, I would go off alone and not want to be part of the group.

Also, every time my mom tried to drop me off, I would not get out of the

car. One of the staff had to come get me, and physically pull me out of

the car as I screamed and fought. After that, I supposedly adapted and

was in a good mood, but " preferred to play alone. "

[Guest guest]

> > Basically, the room was set up so that nearly anything you could >

> do was learning-related, but also fun. There were problems --

> > teachers told me sometimes that I used objects in the " wrong "

> > way, and I hear they called my parents because I wouldn't play

> > with other kids -- but overall that seemed like a good

> > environment to learn in. Granted,it was only preschool, so I

> > don't know how they handled advanced topics. I only know that

> > it's possibly the only school I ever liked.

> I don't remember my time there, except for a few snips here and

> there.

I have a fairly good memory of times well before preschool, and

definitely by preschool age my memory is about as good as it gets

(none of my memory *ever* seems to work in a " continuous " fashion so

that would be a misnomer). So I remember a good deal of preschool.

(I'm guessing from a friend's reaction of " You remember THAT? " when I

described what I was looking at in a photograph of me in the woods at

a very young age, my memory goes further back than most.)

> They were concerned that while all of the other kids would

> sit in a circle, I would go off alone and not want to be part of

> the group.

The call they made to my parents was about something like, " She always

plays alone, and if the other kids try to get near her she lets out

this high-pitched shriek. " My parents, not having dealt with me much

with large groups of kids before (and the main time I remember before

that, Mini-Gym, is one in which I completely avoided what looked like

a roiling chaos at one end of the room, and which when I replay it in

my head looks like it must have been a bunch of kids), had never heard

this shriek, and were mostly baffled by the idea that I'd do this.

> Also, every time my mom tried to drop me off, I would not get out

> of the car. One of the staff had to come get me, and physically

> pull me out of the car as I screamed and fought. After that, I

> supposedly adapted and was in a good mood, but " preferred to play

> alone. "

The shrieking business was apparently resolved by an incident I

*don't* remember -- my mother going to the school, watching me wiggle

my fingers, and wiggling her fingers back at me. She got no more

complaints from the teachers after that.

My main memories of preschool are of all the stuff I did there --

wandering around, messing with the computer, staring at Miss Alice's

braid, perching on top of a play structure, getting shoved down a

slide (okay, so it wasn't *all* great), thinking the word " "

must designate a type of person just as " table " designates a type of

object and deciding the other must be another me (there's

something really annoying about having one of the most popular names

for 1980, although at least it wasn't as bad as the class with three

s), filling the chalkboard with chalk and liking the

punishment (slopping water over it) as much as I liked doing it,

collecting yellow things off of trees, trying to grab clothespins

through a chain link fence, watching other kids play organized games

that were *way* over my head, and assorted other things of that

nature. I also remember being made the only permanent " indoor/outdoor

kid " for some reason (most kids switched between being outdoor kids

and being indoor kids, I was allowed free run of both for some reason

I don't know).

[Guest guest]

hey amanda...

I like your point, but the first time I heard this theory (from my

friend at maestro media and Autism Site) the example Will gave was him

being 18 and enlisting in the army, and he now looks back and says yep,

I was really about 12 in a lot of ways... now that is scary...

think drivers test

think legal drinking age

think peer pressure

geez I never want my kid to leave my sight some days

speaking of that

presents to unwrap

cheers all

dani

alfamanda wrote:

>

>

> > I think that it varies, though... I'm 26 but emotionally I seem

> > closest to a *very* young NT, in terms of self-care ability I'm

> > perhaps 11 years old in NT terms on a good day (that's after a year

> > of drastic improvement via experience, too) and my cognitive

> > abilities are in some aspects still infantile -- so the 2/3 rule is

> > far too optimistic for me, even when I'm " compensating " using every

> > bit of brainpower I have. I've figured that for a complete average,

> > I might be around 1/3 my physical-NT age, though obviously that would

> > vary all over the place depending on what else is going on in my

> > life. :-)

>

> I don't think it's useful whatsoever to assign NT ages to autistic

> development. We go on a completely different developmental track.

> We're not going to fit some kind of 2/3 rule or 1/2 rule or any other

> rule like that, we're *not* just NTs with delayed development in

> certain areas on the same track as them.

>

> , who is just exactly like a 23-year-old autistic

>

>

> ------------------------------------------------------------------------

>

[Guest guest]

I attended a preschool based on those principles and that was the only time

I enjoyed in my school career. The factory model school was hell for me, as

I am sure it was/is for anyone on the spectrum.

My wife used Montessori principles very successfully while homeschooling our

children (AS, ADHD & NT) and now works in a Montessori school as a SETA with

children on the spectrum.

Re: Sort of new member

> --- In AutisticSpectrumTreeHouse , " Kaiden Fox "

> > I

> > anticipate with dread the whole " trust me, Montessori education is

> > the way to go " debate I'm going to have with my girlfriend if we

> > ever reproduce - but Montessori learning stops the " mutilated

> > octopus " syndrome of " math at 8:00, English at 9:00, science at

> > 10:00, history at 11:00 " that stops people from making connections.

> > I think it's even more important for autistic or

> > broader-autistic-phenotype children to be able to see the

> > interrelations between every academic discipline.

>

> The only Montessori school I ever went to was my preschool, and I

> don't know how typical it is of Montessori schools, but it was

> *definitely* a good learning environment for at least my sort of

> autistic person.

>

> Basically, the room was set up so that nearly anything you could do

> was learning-related, but also fun. There were problems -- teachers

> told me sometimes that I used objects in the " wrong " way, and I hear

> they called my parents because I wouldn't play with other kids -- but

> overall that seemed like a good environment to learn in. Granted, it

> was only preschool, so I don't know how they handled advanced topics.

> I only know that it's possibly the only school I ever liked.

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

[Guest guest]

danielle strom wrote:

> think drivers test

> think legal drinking age

> think peer pressure

Peer pressure? What's that?

I remember hearing a lot about it, in the sex education and drug

education modules in school, but I never knew what it was, and I

remember thinking that they were just being silly when talking about

peer pressure. I was never even aware of it, and I still do not have

much of an idea what it must feel like to experience it.

[Guest guest]

Peer pressure is when you do something just to fit-in with a crowd. It's

something that neurotypicals sometimes have a problem with. I'm not sure if

there's any books written for parents/caregivers of neurotypicals on how to

deal at an autistic level with peer-pressure.

The problem with peer-pressure is that neurotypicals with enough

self-awareness to recognize it often don't have the autistic-level awareness

to realize that pressure is pressure, and that there are many types of

social pressure. Thus, " do this because I told you to " becomes peer

pressure when dealing with someone of equal " status, " but becomes an

authoritative command when the speaker in question is of a " higher rank "

than the person being commanded. A person who follows the dictates of an

equal is " caving in " to peer pressure, while a person who DOESN'T follow the

dictates of a " superior " is somehow " being defiant. " Both are, in

neurotypical minds, " bad. "

Desmond may have written something about this.

Re: Sort of new member

> danielle strom wrote:

>

> > think drivers test

> > think legal drinking age

> > think peer pressure

>

> Peer pressure? What's that?

>

> I remember hearing a lot about it, in the sex education and drug

> education modules in school, but I never knew what it was, and I

> remember thinking that they were just being silly when talking about

> peer pressure. I was never even aware of it, and I still do not have

> much of an idea what it must feel like to experience it.

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

[Guest guest]

In my son, peer pressure takes the form of an overriding need to be

accepted, to the point of doing things totally out of character, usually

resulting in some kind of run-in with authority, which the peers manage to

avoid.

Re: Sort of new member

>

>

> > danielle strom wrote:

> >

> > > think drivers test

> > > think legal drinking age

> > > think peer pressure

> >

> > Peer pressure? What's that?

> >

> > I remember hearing a lot about it, in the sex education and drug

> > education modules in school, but I never knew what it was, and I

> > remember thinking that they were just being silly when talking about

> > peer pressure. I was never even aware of it, and I still do not have

> > much of an idea what it must feel like to experience it.

> >

> >

> >

> >

> >

> >

> >

[Guest guest]

Autists & Aspies can have a problem with it too, if they want to fit in.

They can be the ones who get caught, sometimes because the NT peers planned

it that way, or because they don't stop what they're doing when an authority

figure comes along.

>

> Reply-To: AutisticSpectrumTreeHouse

> Date: Thu, 25 Dec 2003 11:41:10 -0600

> To: <AutisticSpectrumTreeHouse >

> Subject: Re: Sort of new member

>

> Peer pressure is when you do something just to fit-in with a crowd. It's

> something that neurotypicals sometimes have a problem with. I'm not sure if

> there's any books written for parents/caregivers of neurotypicals on how to

> deal at an autistic level with peer-pressure.

[Guest guest]

Hi frank - happy boxing day....

Klein wrote:

> danielle strom wrote:

>

> > think drivers test

> > think legal drinking age

> > think peer pressure

>

> Peer pressure? What's that?

chuckle, that's funny

>

> I remember hearing a lot about it, in the sex education and drug

> education modules in school, but I never knew what it was, and I

> remember thinking that they were just being silly when talking about

> peer pressure. I was never even aware of it, and I still do not have

> much of an idea what it must feel like to experience it.

so interesting.... my son and I are extremely externally referenced and

have a high desire to be social (interacting with others - especially

verbally and physically connecting) to the point of being too demanding

on others socially and in relationships. so I know that he shares

with me the penchant for being different, and individual in his choices,

and also, that peer pressure will be a big deal for him at times... and

so my point was with the emotional maturity being so young, that peer

pressure would be Very confusing - (he would be more responding to it as

" trying to follow the rules of the group " than " to fit in " , as that is

the level he is using to guide his part in interactions.)

I can think of many times when my moral sense overcame peer pressure,

and times when my sensory system led me to be more easily influenced by

peer pressure....

gee guess I am unpredictable in that way, socially - my god that's

shocking! ;-)

dani,

who can hear the turkey calling, but really, I'm just not intersted

anymore! :-\

>

>

>

>

> ------------------------------------------------------------------------

>

[Guest guest]

sorry hi again 0 that was hi to frank, and happy boxing day everyone! duh!

danielle strom wrote:

> Hi frank - happy boxing day....

>

> Klein wrote:

>

> > danielle strom wrote:

> >

> > > think drivers test

> > > think legal drinking age

> > > think peer pressure

> >

> > Peer pressure? What's that?

>

> chuckle, that's funny

>

> >

> > I remember hearing a lot about it, in the sex education and drug

> > education modules in school, but I never knew what it was, and I

> > remember thinking that they were just being silly when talking about

> > peer pressure. I was never even aware of it, and I still do not have

> > much of an idea what it must feel like to experience it.

>

>

> so interesting.... my son and I are extremely externally referenced and

> have a high desire to be social (interacting with others - especially

> verbally and physically connecting) to the point of being too demanding

> on others socially and in relationships. so I know that he shares

> with me the penchant for being different, and individual in his choices,

> and also, that peer pressure will be a big deal for him at times... and

> so my point was with the emotional maturity being so young, that peer

> pressure would be Very confusing - (he would be more responding to it as

> " trying to follow the rules of the group " than " to fit in " , as that is

> the level he is using to guide his part in interactions.)

>

> I can think of many times when my moral sense overcame peer pressure,

> and times when my sensory system led me to be more easily influenced by

> peer pressure....

>

> gee guess I am unpredictable in that way, socially - my god that's

> shocking! ;-)

>

> dani,

> who can hear the turkey calling, but really, I'm just not intersted

> anymore! :-\

>

> >

> >

> >

> >

> > ------------------------------------------------------------------------

> >

[Guest guest]

Norah Willett wrote:

>They can be the ones who get caught, sometimes because the NT peers planned

>it that way, or because they don't stop what they're doing when an authority

>figure comes along.

>

>

and because the authority figures simply don't like us,

and because NTs *assume* that anyone who can't make eye-contact is lying.

Ride the Music

AndyTiedye

[Guest guest]

> and because the authority figures simply don't like us,

> and because NTs *assume* that anyone who can't make eye-contact is lying.

I don't think it is that they don't like us.

I think that people lying often behave in atypical ways. Unfortunately,

our normal behavior is also atypical, which is the cause of this - but it

isn't malicious or intentional on the NT's part.

--

[Guest guest]

You have a lot of faith in your fellow man. I usually assume that any given

person is hard-wired to preserve and propagate the culture their minds have

built. It's like how in Rome, no slave revolt was a revolt against the

*institution* of slavery. The reason why revolutions fail is because

changing governments or laws doesn't change PEOPLE, and most people are

running on primate-level brain hardware of territory, submission and

dominance, verbal " grooming " behaviors, and the non-verbal communication

(voice tone, posture, facial expression) of apes.

" Marat

these cells of the inner self

are worse than the deepest stone dungeon

and as long as they are locked

all your revolution remains

only a prison mutiny

to be put down

by corrupted fellow prisoners "

-- Wiess, " Marat/Sade "

----- Original Message -----

> I think that people lying often behave in atypical ways. Unfortunately,

> our normal behavior is also atypical, which is the cause of this - but it

> isn't malicious or intentional on the NT's part.

>

> --

>

>

>

>

>

>

[Guest guest]

> You have a lot of faith in your fellow man. I usually assume that any given

> person is hard-wired to preserve and propagate the culture their minds have

> built. It's like how in Rome, no slave revolt was a revolt against the

> *institution* of slavery. The reason why revolutions fail is because

> changing governments or laws doesn't change PEOPLE, and most people are

> running on primate-level brain hardware of territory, submission and

> dominance, verbal " grooming " behaviors, and the non-verbal communication

> (voice tone, posture, facial expression) of apes.

And autistics certainly don't do any less of this then NTs.

--

[Guest guest]

Kaiden wrote:

>>... most people are

>> running on primate-level brain hardware of territory, submission and

>> dominance, verbal " grooming " behaviors, and the non-verbal communication

>> (voice tone, posture, facial expression) of apes.

and wrote:

>And autistics certainly don't do any less of this then NTs.

?? What Kaiden wrote certainly doesn't describe me. Does it

describe you, ?

Jane

[Guest guest]

I wrote:

>> ?? What Kaiden wrote certainly doesn't describe me. Does it

>> describe you, ?

and responded:

>Given the right circumstances, I'm pretty sure it would. I don't think

>I'm a better man then the average NT.

I don't know whether I'm " better than the average NT, "

but I know I'm a lot different from the characteristics

Kaiden laid out.

Jane

[Guest guest]

> Joal, your perceptions and conclusions are so radically different

> than mine that we seem to be running incompatible brain software.

> You'll never convince me that autists behave in an ape-like manner,

> and I'll never be able to convince you that they don't. In your

> world, autists aren't teased, beaten, or even killed because they

> present a threat by their failure to conform.

runs the only " Murder of Autistics " website in existence. I

*sincerely* doubt he doesn't know this.

> In your world,

> neurotypicals don't " present " in ape-like ways, with ape like

> expressions, postures, and vocal tones - or if they do, then

> autists do as well.

> Either you're seeing something that's not there, or you're failing

> to see something that is there, OR I am the one with the perceptual

> problems.

I think you're failing to see something that is there, personally. I

have not seen autistic group dynamics, for instance, to be less

" apelike " than NT group dynamics. I have seen autistic people use

facial expressions and body postures that resemble those used by other

primates.

I have also seen autistic people use social dominance over other

autistic people. I have seen many groups of autistic people over time

and watched them form hierarchies similar to those found in groups of

NT people, I have seen one group of auties disband in part over who

was having sex with whom, I have seen autistics pick on other

autistics *horribly* for not being the same kind of autistic, I have

seen autistics vie for power, I have seen autistics hold specific

other autistics in such high esteem that said other autistics are

considered above criticism, I have seen autistics who think they're

better than other autistics and say so openly, I have witnessed

shouting matches between autistics, I have seen autistics beat each

other up, I have seen autistics gossip about other autistics, I have

seen autistics put each other down, I have seen autistics gang up on

other autistics, and I have seen a lot of other things like that.

I have also witnessed enough *other* groups who think they are above

these things only to later find out that they are not (women are one

of many examples), to, in combination with the above data, believe

that autistic people *as a group* are no exception to this sort of

thing, and that it's not just that we've spent too long around NTs.

The main difference I have seen is in the *way* autistic people

express these things, and even that difference is quite often absent.

> Your statement that you do not believe in a primate ancestor for

> the human race, and a dismissal of the out-of-Africa theory of

> human divergence, gives me some insight into how I believe your

> mind must work. While I admit that " theory of mind " isn't my

> strongest point, I do believe I have a good enough " handle " on you.

> Your mind operates in such a way that, somehow, you seem to believe

> that human beings were " created " by either aliens or some

> supernatural entity, or perhaps I am reading too much into your

> statement and you simply believe that the evolutionary lines for

> human beings do not cross with the lines of other primates, despite

> the anatomical similarity and the 97% identical genetic structure

> with chimps.

> I won't be able to convince *you* of anything, because you're

> paradigmatic structure precludes the idea of genetics, anatomical

> structure, or behavior, making individuals within a species (or

> closely related species - I'm not completely sold on the " one

> humanity " idea, simply because anthropology is TOO politically

> motivated) NEARER or FARTHER from another species is not something

> you're going to be convinced of.

I probably disagree with about the origins of humanity, but I do

agree with him about autistic people, particularly when put together

in groups, being quite capable of forming the same sorts of

destructive " apelike " dominance, hierarchy, and social structures that

NTs do. So clearly this observation is not just a matter of what

origins for humanity one believes in.

> Also, your belief that autistic behavior and neurotypical behavior >

is the same, in regards to the formation and perpetuation of social

> structures and ape-like hierarchies, is so radically different than

> my observations that I simply don't *trust* you. One of us is

> living in a fantasy world, and given the comments of others

> supporting my claims as to their behavior (which I will confess I

> cannot observe except by trusting them), I have to assume that it's

> not me.

I don't think is living in a fantasy world. I don't think you

are either, but I think you may simply not have observed large groups

of autistic people long enough to notice that we're really (as a

group) not above things like ape-like hierarchies, even if some of us

individually don't like them.