Re: DSM AS vs. Autism F criteria

[Guest guest]

DeGraf opined:

>Not to mention, of course, that distinguishing between somebody that

>is labeled " Autistic " versus one that has been labeled " AS " is

>pretty much impossible. I used to be on the other side of the fence

>on that issue, but I learned the hard way by actually trying to

>figure out where Parrish and I each are on the (linear-categorical)

>spectrum that it isn't realistic. We're nearly identical in traits,

>but his traits are stronger in some ways and mine in others, with

>the strange end-result that we appear to be at opposite ends of the

>spectrum simultaneously.

I don't profess to be an expert on autism yet, but I've been giving

this " spectrum " idea some thought lately. It seems to me that, while

the concept is a well-intentioned attempt to get away from the

somewhat " black or white " attitude that some seem to have toward

autism, even a " spectrum " is a bit misleading, inasmuch as a spectrum

is usually a two-dimensional idea. I think a better replacement

would be an expanded and more detailed version of what has

posted on his site, where various symptomatic categories are broken

down and individually spectrumed (is that a word?). That would be

more complicated, of course, and even that wouldn't produce a

complete picture, but it would also describe the autistic much more

accurately.

Is anyone in the autistic research community pursuing something like this?

--Parrish

[Guest guest]

Dr Ozonoff is on an advisory committee for the new DSM, or she claimed

to be a little more than a year ago.

She was asked to write a book of advice for parents of Asperger's

kids. She refused unless she could write it for AS and HFA kids IN

THE TITLE because a big part of her previous research had conclusively

shown that there was no difference between them. She had films of her

interacting with both kinds of kids/teens and said, I heard her, " I

can't tell them apart on the films, I have to go back and look

sometimes to tell which dx they had "

She says there is no difference and she is on the DSM rewrite

committee, so she said.

Camille

-- In AutisticSpectrumTreeHouse , DeGraf

<moggy@s...> wrote:

> Gerald Newport jotted this down:

> > I am technically not autistic anyway as I satisfy condition " f " of

> > my DSM-IV description of Asperger's which reads: " Does not meet the

> > criteria for another pervasive developmental disorder or

> > schizophrenia. "

>

> Isn't " F " in the DSM-IV criteria a contradiction, though, as the AS

criteria is extremely close to the Autism criteria plus " F " and one

other bizarrely contradictory claim about simultaneously having and

not having a developmental delay?

>

> I forget who said it, but somebody reputable (insofar as any of us

can be) mentioned on the lists a while back that they knew somebody on

the DSM committee, and that their plan is to merge AS and Autism in

part because of this particular problem. Anybody know who it was or

when this is supposed to happen, or if I just dreamed it?

>

> Not to mention, of course, that distinguishing between somebody that

is labeled " Autistic " versus one that has been labeled " AS " is pretty

much impossible. I used to be on the other side of the fence on that

issue, but I learned the hard way by actually trying to figure out

where Parrish and I each are on the (linear-categorical) spectrum that

it isn't realistic. We're nearly identical in traits, but his traits

are stronger in some ways and mine in others, with the strange

end-result that we appear to be at opposite ends of the spectrum

simultaneously.

> --

> DeGraf ~*~ http://www.sonic.net/mustang/moggy

[Guest guest]

One of the researchers I heard speak, might have been Tony ,

tried to show the " spectrum " as overlapping venn diagrams. I see the

spectrum as overlapping globes that have colors that pulse and that

have stuff that shifts within them like billows of smoke.

After having shown the Venn diagrams, which had a color aspect to

them, he returned to a very linear description of autism

We are totally trapped by the Western logic construct of linear

thinking. I love " proofs " " if then " thinking, linear constructions,

BuT they don't fit the real world. The real world is a pulsing amoeba

of changing colors and textures and smells. It isn't a fine black

line with hash marks placed evenly along it's length.

As Szatmari said, " you can't carve nature at the joints. " And he was

talking about the differentiation between AS and HFA and pdd-nos and

LFA at the time.

Camille

>

> I don't profess to be an expert on autism yet, but I've been giving

> this " spectrum " idea some thought lately. It seems to me that, while

> the concept is a well-intentioned attempt to get away from the

> somewhat " black or white " attitude that some seem to have toward

> autism, even a " spectrum " is a bit misleading, inasmuch as a spectrum

> is usually a two-dimensional idea. I think a better replacement

> would be an expanded and more detailed version of what has

> posted on his site, where various symptomatic categories are broken

> down and individually spectrumed (is that a word?). That would be

> more complicated, of course, and even that wouldn't produce a

> complete picture, but it would also describe the autistic much more

> accurately.

>

> Is anyone in the autistic research community pursuing something like

this?

>

> --Parrish

[Guest guest]

> We are totally trapped by the Western logic construct of linear

> thinking.

Only if we're trapped in the confines of language. (Which affects

non-Western philosophy as well.) That's one of the exact reasons I

find most differentiations of autism so frustrating, is they *are*

mostly language and most people seem to take " There's a word for it so

it *must* be this way " or something. Which baffles me.

> As Szatmari said, " you can't carve nature at the joints. " And he

> was talking about the differentiation between AS and HFA and pdd-nos

> and LFA at the time.

Exactly.