Re: nonverbal language

[Guest guest]

wrote:

> > Nonverbal language predated humans, and primates for that

> > matter. It was necessary then. It isn't now; we have something

> > better. Nonverbal language is like the appendix now, or the

> > vestigial feet in boa constrictors.

And Jane responded:

> > That's an odd thing to say. Nonverbal language (or rather,

> > inability to do it) is what gets many auties fired from their jobs.

> > It keeps many auties from being hired in the first place. It's what

> > keeps auties longing for friends and/or romance alone in their

> > lives. It gets some auties locked up (by cops or docs).

> > My appendix never did any of that to me.

and countered:

> You have to take what I wrote in context. I mean that nonverbal

> language no longer serves a useful purpose, now that we have

> something better. It is a vestige of our nonverbal heritage, evol-

> utionarily and in the early days of the species. It's an idea whose

> time has come and gone.

It may not serve much purpose to you, or most aspies, but I think

that NTs still use it to great effect. They use it all the time, whether

or not you notice, to denote when someone is doing/saying something

odd, when they are angry with someone, kids roll their eyes when their

parents begin an oft-heard speech. And nonverbal language includes

body language too. All NTs give off hundreds, perhaps thousands of

nonverbal messages each day, and one of the primary areas where it

is practiced is in the romantic department. Every interested look,

every smile, every upturned eyebrow, every sucked-in gut, all these

things and more are little message packets, and are read by the intended

person as such. No offense, but many aspies either don't see, recognize,

or understand these messages. Trust me, it's not a dying language.

Clay

[Guest guest]

Jane Meyerding wrote:

> > ...Nonverbal language predated humans, and primates for that

> > matter. It was necessary then. It isn't now; we have something

> > better. Nonverbal language is like the appendix now, or the

> > vestigial feet in boa constrictors.

>

> That's an odd thing to say. Nonverbal language (or rather, inability

> to do it) is what gets many auties fired from their jobs. It keeps

> many auties from being hired in the first place. It's what keeps

> auties longing for friends and/or romance alone in their lives. It

> gets some auties locked up (by cops or docs).

>

> My appendix never did any of that to me.

You have to take what I wrote in context. I mean that nonverbal

language no longer serves a useful purpose, now that we have something

better. It is a vestige of our nonverbal heritage, evolutionarily and

in the early days of the species. It's an idea whose time has come and

gone.

[Guest guest]

>

> > ...whether in the world of NTs or in this mythical version

> > of the world where autistics somehow reproductively overrun

> > the NTs.

>

> " Somehow " makes it sound really improbable, but it seems

> likely that the population is already becoming saturated

> with autistic genes. Many people have the recessive gene

> for autism, but it doesn't surface until those genes are

> reinforced by the other partner. This is why there seems to

> be an " epidemic " of it just now. It was barely known fifty

> years ago, and now it's on everyone's lips, and they're

> hysterical about it. The rush is on to reproduce, before

> they make it illegal to do so, or find a way to detect us

> in the womb. Make love, not war! 8<{)

>

> Clay

Off the top of my head, I tend to agree with most of this. What

really worries me is the fact that " the rush is on " to teach the

young spectrumites that autistic behavior is, itself, inherently

" sociopathic " or " bad " (or whatever term might apply), thus

effectively alienating them from their true identity on basis of

" autism = bad " . (Obvious, yes, but ...)

It is the long-term effects of this that really give me the screaming

heebie-jeebies. Specifically, it will be that self-alienation which

WILL lead to the very " sociopathic " behavior that intervention

purports to " correct " . But the effect will them be *blamed* on

autism itself---NOT on the imposed self-alienation (emotional

abuse) which led to the " bad " behavior. The effect of this will be

that the " autism = bad " view will have much more ample (though

inherently false) " eveidence " that autism itself is responsible for

" bad " , and even criminal, behavior. Obviously, this will lead to

exacerbation of the anti-autistic backlash presently being

fostered by the ABA/curebie crowd.

In short, by compulsively botching their own cause/effect logic,

they will create a " self-fulfilling prophecy " which will further

endanger all of us.

Now, the real big-picture is obviously a bogglingly complex set of

dynamics, so anything could happen. And I certainly hope things

don't unfold as I am predicting here. But frankly, this scenario

worries the hell out of me when I consider the long-term

" prognosis " for autism in society, to say nothing of the more

" short-term " consequences for today's autistic children and

adults.

I hope I've done justice to my point here. It's a pretty loopy set of

individual and social dynamics, so it's hard to explain clearly,

and impossible to grasp for those who want " simple "

rationalizations for everything they feel like doing. But to me, this

is yet another example of how " folk morality " could easily destroy

some of the most inherently benign human beings in existence.

But don't tell Digby Tantam I said that! :-O

Here's hoping for the best. We're gonna need it.

:-\

Dave March

[Guest guest]

>

> > If you can figure out a way that I can do that without having to

ever

> > see or interact with the kid, or pay any money for its upkeep,

let me

> > know.

>

> Sperm donation?

>

>

Pah! You're no fun at all! (j.k.)

:-)

--DKM

[Guest guest]

Yeah, I know the feeling. I was taught that " stimming = lack of 'poise' " .

Once I realized what stimming was, I invested in Silly Putty and have been

playing with it whenever my hands need something to do.

It's important to teach that autism isn't bad, just different. It's also

useful to teach what is expected, although that may be debatable. For

example, the whole " eye contact " thing, proper posture, that stimming is

distracting to others, etc. There's nothing inherently wrong with faking NT

for short periods of time. There is great harm in telling people that how

they are naturally is inherently wrong, and that they have to fake NT for

the rest of their lives.

The problem I think most of the new generation will face is the same problem

that faced Jefferson - the need for " a more universal aquantence. " The

problem is that it's easy enough to give us a life-long love of learning,

and to introduce us into the joys of knowing things. Our natural ability to

perseverate gives us the natural curiosity which drives the learning

process. However, being in an evironment where others are there only by

force, and who decide to make the lives of those who see school as a place

of learning into hell, makes many see school as hell. I mean, who cares

about the War of 1812 when your battles are with people better coordinated,

more violent, and more able to lie convincingly than you? Overt violence

and psychological " we hate you " is enough to make any student *loath* school

with a passion. That doesn't encourage good study habits, or even a desire

for life-long education. The educational process itself becomes mucked-up

with layer upon layer of psychological shit.

I don't know if isolation is the key. As a child, I was quite likely to

believe " the rule is " meant that things were that way and that was so. Good

behavior would simply be a set of expectations, which would be easy enough

to follow once they were established. I don't know if having an

autists-only educational system would actually work... if everyone would be

a good rule-follower and turn the educational process into a joy, rather

than a lesson in pain.

The advice Norm Ledgin gives in his book " Diagnosing Jefferson, " is to drop

out at age 16, get a GED, and go straight to college. It really doesn't

matter that you're not socially equipped to deal with people a few years

older than you... if you're like me you won't be socially equipped *anyway*

when the " right time " comes. In college, since everyone who is going there

is paying to be there and actually *wants* to be there, you're not going to

suffer any shit.

[Guest guest]

Kaiden Fox wrote:

> For example, the whole " eye contact " thing, proper

> posture, that stimming is distracting to others, etc. There's

> nothing inherently wrong with faking NT for short periods of time.

I tend to disagreeme with this. It serves to reinforce the notion that

other people's comfort is more important than ours. It also hides us

from others, which prevents them from being forced to deal with it, and

get used to it-- like they did with the blacks, for example. Whites had

to get used to having them around, which won't happen if they don't

appear to be around.

As such, I would rather make a special effort to be visibly autistic in

public than to hide it.

> In college,

> since everyone who is going there is paying to be there and actually

> *wants* to be there, you're not going to suffer any shit.

This is not true. My late friend Shane found that the people he met at

Sangamon State University in Springfield, Illinois, were more abusive to

him than those in high school. Many of the people that tormented me in

middle and high school were people that wanted to be there, not the

delinquents in training that would rather be somewhere else.

[Guest guest]

> I tend to disagreeme with this. It serves to reinforce the notion

> that other people's comfort is more important than ours. It also

> hides us from others, which prevents them from being forced to deal

> with it, and get used to it-- like they did with the blacks, for

> example. Whites had to get used to having them around, which won't

> happen if they don't appear to be around.

> As such, I would rather make a special effort to be visibly

> autistic in public than to hide it.

I agree with here, with the caveat that pragmatics can overrule

ideals at times. and I, and others on SSI/SSD (I don't know

what on earth I'm on now, but it pays more than SSI for once), and

others who can't *help* not passing, we have much less to lose by

being openly autistic than many other people do.

This doesn't mean I advocate passing or that I think *anyone* should

have to pass, only that if it saves your life to pass briefly in

public, I don't think that's condemnable. I think it is remarkable

when any autistic is openly and blatantly autistic in public, but I

think it is all the more remarkable from people who, *unlike*

and me, could lose everything they've got by doing it.

That said, I think my part as someone who *doesn't* have a lot to lose

is to be openly and unashamedly autistic in public to pave the way for

those later, in a time where hopefully (in part because of our

efforts) people will have a lot *less* to lose for being themselves.

But I can't blame people who don't want to die (which, while it's a

potential consequence of passing, is also a potential consequence of

*not* passing) for trying to pass in some situations. I am just

angered by the fact that the rest of the world promotes that crap and

makes it necessary for people to hide who they are.

[Guest guest]

Kaiden Fox wrote:

>Yeah, I know the feeling. I was taught that " stimming = lack of 'poise' " .

>Once I realized what stimming was, I invested in Silly Putty and have been

>playing with it whenever my hands need something to do.

>

I haven't tried that lately, but I probably will (particularly since

some appeared in the xmas stocking).

Some of my favorites:

Dancing (best full-body stim there is)

Giving massage

Swinging up-side-down on an inversion bar.

Petting a cat (purrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrr)

Stealthy stims:

twirling one's feet around at the ankle (when seated)

kindof a circular pattern thing involving my abdominal muscles

>It's important to teach that autism isn't bad, just different. It's also

>useful to teach what is expected, although that may be debatable. For

>example, the whole " eye contact " thing, proper posture, that stimming is

>distracting to others, etc. There's nothing inherently wrong with faking NT

>for short periods of time. There is great harm in telling people that how

>they are naturally is inherently wrong, and that they have to fake NT for

>the rest of their lives.

>

We can't do it anyway, though some make themselves crazy trying.

>

>The problem I think most of the new generation will face is the same problem

>that faced Jefferson - the need for " a more universal aquantence. " The

>problem is that it's easy enough to give us a life-long love of learning,

>and to introduce us into the joys of knowing things. Our natural ability to

>perseverate gives us the natural curiosity which drives the learning

>process. However, being in an evironment where others are there only by

>force, and who decide to make the lives of those who see school as a place

>of learning into hell, makes many see school as hell. I mean, who cares

>about the War of 1812 when your battles are with people better coordinated,

>more violent, and more able to lie convincingly than you? Overt violence

>and psychological " we hate you " is enough to make any student *loath* school

>with a passion.

>

The War of 1812 is an interesting example to bring up in this

context. Britain was far more powerful than the US at that time,

and they clobbered us militarily and burned down our capital.

The only sense in which we can claim to have " won " that war is

that we survived it (and rebuilt our Capitol out of less flammable

materials).

I made it through middle and high school on sheer masochism.

>That doesn't encourage good study habits,

>

What really prevented me from developing good study habits was

that school was way too easy, academically. I was at the top of

my class with very little effort. All of that changed when I got to

MIT, where I had to actually study hard for the first time. The

environment was totally different too, nobody gets bullied for being

a nerd at MIT! It was the first place I ever seemed to fit in at all.

Ride the Music

AndyTiedye

[Guest guest]

Andy, You hang upside down in your house? How do you not break your wall?

I would ruin the plaster.

>

> >but have to have the " perfect " atmosphere. "

> For years, my " perfect atmosphere " was the Grateful Dead. That

It is free-form,

> there

> is no wrong way to

> do it. If you can do it for hours at a time, so much the

> better!

>

> There is something about dancing all night under the stars, way out

> in

> the forest somewhere

> with a few hundred other happy people.

Rave?

Hmmmmmmmm

Yeah well...Minus the ecstacy drug attached to some of those scenes I

would go for it.Sounds freeing

KIM

________________________________________________________________

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[Guest guest]

D Tucker wrote:

>Andy, You hang upside down in your house? How do you not break your wall?

>I would ruin the plaster.

>

It mounts in a doorframe. The brackets take six screws.

There is also a freestanding table version, you can hang up-side-down in

that too,

if you don't think your doorframes are sturdy enough or you don't want

to drill

any holes.

http://www.relaxtheback.com/global/product/pg_subcategory.cfm?TID=90581721407800\

0405016449 & CFID=41172140 & CFTOKEN=250405013 & Site=main & TreeID=1913/global/product/\

pg_subcategory.cfm?TID=905817214078000405016449 & CFID=41172140 & CFTOKEN=250405013 & \

Site=main & TreeID=1913

>>There is something about dancing all night under the stars, way out

>>in the forest somewhere

>>with a few hundred other happy people.

>>

>>

>

>Rave?

>

>Hmmmmmmmm

>

>Yeah well...Minus the ecstacy drug attached to some of those scenes I

>would go for it.

>

It is not actually required that one take ecstacy at a rave, especially

if one is hyperactive

and on the spectrum. In my case it would be redundant. The

combination of stimming

and sensory overload from dancing at a rave works better for me than any

drug, and I'm

usually still dancing when most of the candy kids have run out of steam.

It does help make the NTs who take it less NT, at least for a few hours,

and my natural wierdness looks sufficiently similar to what they are used to

that they are not put off by it. Far from it.

I am sometimes asked for " some of whatever you are on " .

>Sounds freeing

>KIM

>

IT IS!

Ride the Music

AndyTiedye

[Guest guest]

Re: Bugs & Karmann Ghias--So did my Dad! My fave was his green Karmann

Ghia convertible. There was also the VW bus too-red & white. The

Beetle was red. Man, what memories!!! sigh.... ; > )

http://community.webtv.net/tikigalharkins/LETSTALKASPERGERS

[Guest guest]

andy tiedye

> It mounts in a doorframe. The brackets take six screws.

>

> There is also a freestanding table version, you can hang

> up-side-down in

> that too,

That's batty

But I rent and I'd be Screwed, pardon that pun.

KT

________________________________________________________________

The best thing to hit the internet in years - Juno SpeedBand!

Surf the web up to FIVE TIMES FASTER!

Only $14.95/ month - visit www.juno.com to sign up today!

[Guest guest]

D Tucker wrote:

>andy tiedye

>

>

>

>>It mounts in a doorframe. The brackets take six screws.

>>

>>There is also a freestanding table version, you can hang

>>up-side-down in

>>that too,

>>

>>

>

>That's batty

>

>But I rent and I'd be Screwed, pardon that pun.

>

The guy I bought mine from rents too. I don't know if he even

bothered to patch the holes when he moved.

Screw-holes in a doorframe shouldn't be too much of an issue,

and if they are, they are easy to patch.

Alternatively, you can get an inversion table, which is free-standing,

but still allows you to hang up-side-down.

Ride the Music

AndyTiedye