Re: Christmas Trees

[Guest guest]

Hi Charlie,

The 'Christmas Tree' is the symbol of ultimate utility of failure, for Nadas

who need to feel superior ... what better way to demean a 'free thinking'

child than to illustrate that he/she cannot even decorate a damn tree

correctly.

I think ... it is a conspiracy. Nadas all over the world use symbolic icons

to demean us.

Since the GOAl is, anyway, to make us feel inferior ... what better

mechanism can there be than the ultimate Christian Holiday?

I choose to creat my own holiday traditions ... no damb tree. Carol

In a message dated 11/29/2006 9:48:11 AM Eastern Standard Time,

charlottehoneychurch@... writes:

Dear all,

Yesterday I bought a Christmas song on i-tunes. It was one from my

childhood. Then last

night, I had a dream where my subconsious wanted to tell me something. It

was about the

Christmas tree.

From my earliest memory, my nada used the Christmas tree as one of her

instruments to

make me seem inept, ridiculous and annihilated. Here's how she did it. She

and my

younger (split good) sister were the ones considered capable of decorating

the tree.

Whenever I tried to help, they would watch what I did, then verbally shame

me and give me

grief (that doesn't go THERE), and half the time they would go back and move

ornaments

away from where I had put them. If I wanted a certain something--like a

color of tinsel or

lights or such, there was more of that shaming, there would be a response in

a tone as if I

had just said the most ridiculous, insulting thing to them that deserved to

be completely

scoffed, rebuffed and dismissed. When I went away to school, they started

decorating the

tree before I came home, so I could not even participate at all. One year,

nada bought a

smaller tree and put it in the kitchen, and when I got home she gave me all

the older,

leftover ornaments and lights and said that was 'my' tree and I could

decorate it. And I

did, stupidly. (Not knowing about BPD. Now I would have refused of

course). This was all

surrounded by that terrible twisting of reality--like how dare I get angry

about it or try to

defend myself, they were doing absolutely NOTHING wrong, they didn't SAY I

was

ridiculous, they were letting me help, what was I TALKING about, why was I

so mean and

viscious?

I knew this had happened but I didn't realize how much it broke my heart

during

childhood til I dreamed about it. What little girl wants to be shamed with

the Christmas

tree? The idea was that I had no sense of beauty or decoration or such, I

was incapable of

being able to pick the right ornaments and put them in the right places,

because, overall, I

was a ridiculous person, not to be taken seriously, whose only motivation in

life was hate

for my nada. And this reality was so FORCED upon me, so confusing!!

So I am going to verify another reality here with all of you: Christmas

should be a fun and

loving time for the family. Nothing should be used to pit one child against

another,

including decoration of a tree. The mother's role should be to make sure

that all the

children feel included and festive and happy. It was absolutely right of me

to sense that

injustice was going on with the tree, and try to do something about it.

I was thinking of maybe trying to do my own tree this year at my apartment

..... To maybe

purge some of this crap.

Love

Charlie

[Guest guest]

My mom's favorite, too, was to invite me into the kitchen under the pretense

of teaching, berate and criticize, then finally kick me out so she could do

it " right. " She didn't teach me a whole lot of anything, either. Her idea

of teaching moments usually went something like this:

" Iron my scrubs, I'm late to work. "

" I don't know how to iron. "

" Well, then, it's about time you learned. "

Twenty minutes later... " What the hell are you doing? Those look like

crap, I can't go to work in that! What's the matter with you? Here, give it

to

me, I'll do it myself... "

We go through the exact same thing every single week on the way to church.

For Thanksgiving, I didn't bother to even TRY to go into the kitchen.

Coincidently, two of the dishes were " forgotten " because the poor thing didn't

have

any help... UGH Can't win for losin'.

Kristi

In a message dated 11/29/2006 10:27:49 PM Eastern Standard Time,

kylaboo728@... writes:

All this kitchen talk has made something dawn on me -- how the

shutting us out of the kitchen is symbolic of them shutting us out

of a relationship with them.

My nada never really waved me into the kitchen, either. She was

always grumbling about preparing food for us, anyway. (The concept

of service to your family out of love never occurred to her.) I

think it's symbolic of how much they're willing to let us into their

lives, period.

My niece (now grown) once told me that she was enjoying learning how

to cook, now that she had an apartment. She said her mom never

wanted them in the kitchen. The mom's a very rigid, tightly

controlled person (I mean, her very demeanor is stiff! She's

terrified to relax!) -- it didn't surprise me, and I thought it was

sad.

Anytime, without exception, that I ask my daughter " want to help me

cook dinner? " the answer is always YES. And sure, it's easier just

to do it myself -- the kitchen's a little messier, but so what?

I've let her in a little, and that's for the best.

At first, I was resistant to a helper, but overrode that when I saw

the hopeful look on her face. Now, it's second nature to invite her

to join me in preparing the meal. It's nice.

[Guest guest]

Dear Charile,

Yes, do have your own Christmas tree. (A Charlie Brown tree? [Pun

intended]) I have been decorating my tree MY way for the last

several years. It has been very theraputic for me.

Sylvia

>

> Dear all,

>

> Yesterday I bought a Christmas song on i-tunes. It was one from

my childhood. Then last

> night, I had a dream where my subconsious wanted to tell me

something. It was about the

> Christmas tree.

>

> From my earliest memory, my nada used the Christmas tree as one of

her instruments to

> make me seem inept, ridiculous and annihilated. Here's how she

did it. She and my

> younger (split good) sister were the ones considered capable of

decorating the tree.

> Whenever I tried to help, they would watch what I did, then

verbally shame me and give me

> grief (that doesn't go THERE), and half the time they would go

back and move ornaments

> away from where I had put them. If I wanted a certain something--

like a color of tinsel or

> lights or such, there was more of that shaming, there would be a

response in a tone as if I

> had just said the most ridiculous, insulting thing to them that

deserved to be completely

> scoffed, rebuffed and dismissed. When I went away to school, they

started decorating the

> tree before I came home, so I could not even participate at all.

One year, nada bought a

> smaller tree and put it in the kitchen, and when I got home she

gave me all the older,

> leftover ornaments and lights and said that was 'my' tree and I

could decorate it. And I

> did, stupidly. (Not knowing about BPD. Now I would have refused

of course). This was all

> surrounded by that terrible twisting of reality--like how dare I

get angry about it or try to

> defend myself, they were doing absolutely NOTHING wrong, they

didn't SAY I was

> ridiculous, they were letting me help, what was I TALKING about,

why was I so mean and

> viscious?

>

> I knew this had happened but I didn't realize how much it broke my

heart during

> childhood til I dreamed about it. What little girl wants to be

shamed with the Christmas

> tree? The idea was that I had no sense of beauty or decoration or

such, I was incapable of

> being able to pick the right ornaments and put them in the right

places, because, overall, I

> was a ridiculous person, not to be taken seriously, whose only

motivation in life was hate

> for my nada. And this reality was so FORCED upon me, so

confusing!!

>

> So I am going to verify another reality here with all of you:

Christmas should be a fun and

> loving time for the family. Nothing should be used to pit one

child against another,

> including decoration of a tree. The mother's role should be to

make sure that all the

> children feel included and festive and happy. It was absolutely

right of me to sense that

> injustice was going on with the tree, and try to do something

about it.

>

> I was thinking of maybe trying to do my own tree this year at my

apartment .... To maybe

> purge some of this crap.

>

> Love

> Charlie

>

[Guest guest]

All this kitchen talk has made something dawn on me -- how the

shutting us out of the kitchen is symbolic of them shutting us out

of a relationship with them.

My nada never really waved me into the kitchen, either. She was

always grumbling about preparing food for us, anyway. (The concept

of service to your family out of love never occurred to her.) I

think it's symbolic of how much they're willing to let us into their

lives, period.

My niece (now grown) once told me that she was enjoying learning how

to cook, now that she had an apartment. She said her mom never

wanted them in the kitchen. The mom's a very rigid, tightly

controlled person (I mean, her very demeanor is stiff! She's

terrified to relax!) -- it didn't surprise me, and I thought it was

sad.

Anytime, without exception, that I ask my daughter " want to help me

cook dinner? " the answer is always YES. And sure, it's easier just

to do it myself -- the kitchen's a little messier, but so what?

I've let her in a little, and that's for the best.

At first, I was resistant to a helper, but overrode that when I saw

the hopeful look on her face. Now, it's second nature to invite her

to join me in preparing the meal. It's nice.

> >

> > Charlie,

> >

> > In one story you have succinctly shown what emotional and verbal

abuse

> > looks like! Anyone who wanted to minimize the abuse could say,

it's

> > just a tree, but we know it's so much more than that.

> >

> > I so want to give that little Charlie a hug and say come play

with my

> > Christmas Tree!

> >

> > My nada did the same thing with cooking. She and split bad

younger

> > sis where the cooks of the family and I couldn't make things

well.

> > Well, of course I couldn't with limited training,

micromanagement, and

> > the constant switch between over blown praise and negative

comments.

> >

> > a

> >

>

[Guest guest]

Your post evoked so many feelings -- mainly the unfairness of it

all -- the being treated like a yo-yo. Like we exist so they'll

have someone to berate.

I can feel the hurt. It makes me heartsick to read it. So glad

you're here.

-Kyla

>

>

> My mom's favorite, too, was to invite me into the kitchen under

the pretense

> of teaching, berate and criticize, then finally kick me out so

she could do

> it " right. " She didn't teach me a whole lot of anything,

either. Her idea

> of teaching moments usually went something like this:

>

> " Iron my scrubs, I'm late to work. "

>

> " I don't know how to iron. "

>

> " Well, then, it's about time you learned. "

>

> Twenty minutes later... " What the hell are you doing? Those

look like

> crap, I can't go to work in that! What's the matter with you?

Here, give it to

> me, I'll do it myself... "

>

> We go through the exact same thing every single week on the way

to church.

> For Thanksgiving, I didn't bother to even TRY to go into the

kitchen.

> Coincidently, two of the dishes were " forgotten " because the poor

thing didn't have

> any help... UGH Can't win for losin'.

>

> Kristi

>

>

>

> In a message dated 11/29/2006 10:27:49 PM Eastern Standard Time,

> kylaboo728@... writes:

>

> All this kitchen talk has made something dawn on me -- how the

> shutting us out of the kitchen is symbolic of them shutting us

out

> of a relationship with them.

>

> My nada never really waved me into the kitchen, either. She was

> always grumbling about preparing food for us, anyway. (The concept

> of service to your family out of love never occurred to her.) I

> think it's symbolic of how much they're willing to let us into

their

> lives, period.

>

> My niece (now grown) once told me that she was enjoying learning

how

> to cook, now that she had an apartment. She said her mom never

> wanted them in the kitchen. The mom's a very rigid, tightly

> controlled person (I mean, her very demeanor is stiff! She's

> terrified to relax!) -- it didn't surprise me, and I thought it

was

> sad.

>

> Anytime, without exception, that I ask my daughter " want to help

me

> cook dinner? " the answer is always YES. And sure, it's easier

just

> to do it myself -- the kitchen's a little messier, but so what?

> I've let her in a little, and that's for the best.

>

> At first, I was resistant to a helper, but overrode that when I

saw

> the hopeful look on her face. Now, it's second nature to invite

her

> to join me in preparing the meal. It's nice.

>

>

>

>

>

>

[Guest guest]

Can't say I blame you. The whole pressure of putting on

the " perfect " Christmas stresses me to no end....starting around

October!

I resent that it's been twisted to be this " let's all be a happy

family " and " let's go into debt so we can shove presents at

everybody we've ever met " kind of holidays.....waiting in line to

get the latest gadget (which I refuse to do) -- everybody looks like

a bunch of cows being led to slaughter.

Like you, I've finally given myself permission to celebrate it the

way I want to. What a relief! One of my traditions is that I stay

in my PJs all day (Everybody gets new PJs that day) I even sit down

to dinner in the dining room in them. May have horrified the in-

laws when I did it the first time, but they're used to it now.

>

>

> Hi Charlie,

>

> The 'Christmas Tree' is the symbol of ultimate utility of failure,

for Nadas

> who need to feel superior ... what better way to demean a 'free

thinking'

> child than to illustrate that he/she cannot even decorate a damn

tree correctly.

>

> I think ... it is a conspiracy. Nadas all over the world use

symbolic icons

> to demean us.

>

> Since the GOAl is, anyway, to make us feel inferior ... what

better

> mechanism can there be than the ultimate Christian Holiday?

>

> I choose to creat my own holiday traditions ... no damb tree.

Carol

>

>

>

>

> In a message dated 11/29/2006 9:48:11 AM Eastern Standard Time,

> charlottehoneychurch@... writes:

>

> Dear all,

>

> Yesterday I bought a Christmas song on i-tunes. It was one from

my

> childhood. Then last

> night, I had a dream where my subconsious wanted to tell me

something. It

> was about the

> Christmas tree.

>

> From my earliest memory, my nada used the Christmas tree as one

of her

> instruments to

> make me seem inept, ridiculous and annihilated. Here's how she

did it. She

> and my

> younger (split good) sister were the ones considered capable of

decorating

> the tree.

> Whenever I tried to help, they would watch what I did, then

verbally shame

> me and give me

> grief (that doesn't go THERE), and half the time they would go

back and move

> ornaments

> away from where I had put them. If I wanted a certain something--

like a

> color of tinsel or

> lights or such, there was more of that shaming, there would be a

response in

> a tone as if I

> had just said the most ridiculous, insulting thing to them that

deserved to

> be completely

> scoffed, rebuffed and dismissed. When I went away to school,

they started

> decorating the

> tree before I came home, so I could not even participate at all.

One year,

> nada bought a

> smaller tree and put it in the kitchen, and when I got home she

gave me all

> the older,

> leftover ornaments and lights and said that was 'my' tree and I

could

> decorate it. And I

> did, stupidly. (Not knowing about BPD. Now I would have refused

of

> course). This was all

> surrounded by that terrible twisting of reality--like how dare I

get angry

> about it or try to

> defend myself, they were doing absolutely NOTHING wrong, they

didn't SAY I

> was

> ridiculous, they were letting me help, what was I TALKING about,

why was I

> so mean and

> viscious?

>

> I knew this had happened but I didn't realize how much it broke

my heart

> during

> childhood til I dreamed about it. What little girl wants to be

shamed with

> the Christmas

> tree? The idea was that I had no sense of beauty or decoration

or such, I

> was incapable of

> being able to pick the right ornaments and put them in the right

places,

> because, overall, I

> was a ridiculous person, not to be taken seriously, whose only

motivation in

> life was hate

> for my nada. And this reality was so FORCED upon me, so

confusing!!

>

> So I am going to verify another reality here with all of you:

Christmas

> should be a fun and

> loving time for the family. Nothing should be used to pit one

child against

> another,

> including decoration of a tree. The mother's role should be to

make sure

> that all the

> children feel included and festive and happy. It was absolutely

right of me

> to sense that

> injustice was going on with the tree, and try to do something

about it.

>

> I was thinking of maybe trying to do my own tree this year at my

apartment

> .... To maybe

> purge some of this crap.

>

> Love

> Charlie

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

[Guest guest]

Thank you Sylvia and Carol! So nice to hear from both of you. I think I will

take control of

my own language, symblos, etc., when it comes to the holidays!

>

>

> Hi Charlie,

>

> The 'Christmas Tree' is the symbol of ultimate utility of failure, for Nadas

> who need to feel superior ... what better way to demean a 'free thinking'

> child than to illustrate that he/she cannot even decorate a damn tree

correctly.

>

> I think ... it is a conspiracy. Nadas all over the world use symbolic icons

> to demean us.

>

> Since the GOAl is, anyway, to make us feel inferior ... what better

> mechanism can there be than the ultimate Christian Holiday?

>

> I choose to creat my own holiday traditions ... no damb tree. Carol

>

>

>

>

> In a message dated 11/29/2006 9:48:11 AM Eastern Standard Time,

> charlottehoneychurch@... writes:

>

> Dear all,

>

> Yesterday I bought a Christmas song on i-tunes. It was one from my

> childhood. Then last

> night, I had a dream where my subconsious wanted to tell me something. It

> was about the

> Christmas tree.

>

> From my earliest memory, my nada used the Christmas tree as one of her

> instruments to

> make me seem inept, ridiculous and annihilated. Here's how she did it. She

> and my

> younger (split good) sister were the ones considered capable of decorating

> the tree.

> Whenever I tried to help, they would watch what I did, then verbally shame

> me and give me

> grief (that doesn't go THERE), and half the time they would go back and move

> ornaments

> away from where I had put them. If I wanted a certain something--like a

> color of tinsel or

> lights or such, there was more of that shaming, there would be a response in

> a tone as if I

> had just said the most ridiculous, insulting thing to them that deserved to

> be completely

> scoffed, rebuffed and dismissed. When I went away to school, they started

> decorating the

> tree before I came home, so I could not even participate at all. One year,

> nada bought a

> smaller tree and put it in the kitchen, and when I got home she gave me all

> the older,

> leftover ornaments and lights and said that was 'my' tree and I could

> decorate it. And I

> did, stupidly. (Not knowing about BPD. Now I would have refused of

> course). This was all

> surrounded by that terrible twisting of reality--like how dare I get angry

> about it or try to

> defend myself, they were doing absolutely NOTHING wrong, they didn't SAY I

> was

> ridiculous, they were letting me help, what was I TALKING about, why was I

> so mean and

> viscious?

>

> I knew this had happened but I didn't realize how much it broke my heart

> during

> childhood til I dreamed about it. What little girl wants to be shamed with

> the Christmas

> tree? The idea was that I had no sense of beauty or decoration or such, I

> was incapable of

> being able to pick the right ornaments and put them in the right places,

> because, overall, I

> was a ridiculous person, not to be taken seriously, whose only motivation in

> life was hate

> for my nada. And this reality was so FORCED upon me, so confusing!!

>

> So I am going to verify another reality here with all of you: Christmas

> should be a fun and

> loving time for the family. Nothing should be used to pit one child against

> another,

> including decoration of a tree. The mother's role should be to make sure

> that all the

> children feel included and festive and happy. It was absolutely right of me

> to sense that

> injustice was going on with the tree, and try to do something about it.

>

> I was thinking of maybe trying to do my own tree this year at my apartment

> .... To maybe

> purge some of this crap.

>

> Love

> Charlie

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

[Guest guest]

The perfect Christmas... My perfect Christmases where when we didnt have the

money to go home and they didn't have the money to come visit. Just me

and DH and the kids <<sigh>> We might've not had the 18 course meal and

Martha house, but we were comfy, and the kids learned about charity (we

always took plates to the guys on duty at DH's unit) and they weren't

bombarded with so many gifts it made them lose their mind. Oh, and there was

no

competeing with Nada about who gives the best gifts, us or her. Like there is

this year... Must be nice not to have to pay rent or bills or food or gas and

spend your (very decent) paycheck on nothing but ways to make your daughter

look bad...

Kristi

[Guest guest]

Good golly Charlie....hasn't your mum ever seen the " Charlie Brown Christmas

cartoon? In the words of Charlie Brown.... " Good Grief! " I'm glad you are

healthy enough to see what her pickyness was really about....and I'm glad

you are thinking about doing your tree....i hope you do...and when you do, I

would love to see pictures. You know, for us KO's....there is something so

liberating about those clarifying moments that others have....i wish none of

us had to go through them....but somehow, the lesson we learn on our own is

somewhat worth it. My grandmother would refer to it as learning something

the hard way. Pfffft.....I don't have to be hit by a freaking train to know

the damage it would do....but for some reason they seem to like those

paralels.

You know....I think the reason I find such validity in healing is because it

is harder for people like us to heal. We have been programmed by

unforgiving, critical, self-absorbed individuals who make us feel so

helpless and worthless....to find that serenity is so re-assuring. Like

there was a light at the end of the tunnel that we were told we didn't

posess the ability to reach....but we did....and we did it in spite of them.

...not because of them.

Anyway...I wanted to chime in here....yeah...Christmas was the same way at

my house. Of course, we didn't have ANY holiday or birthday without

complete and utter chaos. Yelling, screaming, throwing stuff....ridiculous

accusations....hurling inappropriate remarks for stuff that happened 10

years before that had NOTHING to do with the arguement. Without fail I

would always end up sick...finally the doctor told my nada that it wasn't

allergies...it was a stomach ulcer....caused by all the drama most likely!

Christmas was always the same...my mother fought with my father for days to

put up the fake tree (because I was allergic to the real ones....yeah...

NOT!) and put the ugly gold lights on it....(because women can't do that

kind of stuff)...my mother decorated the entire house...the entire tree..

everything. I realize now, she did it all because it was ABOUT her. Even

the little ornaments that I made at school weren't good enough for the tree.

She would laugh at me like " oh....aren't you adorable you stupid pathetic

little creature....you think you made something for the tree...hahahaha " I

wasn't even allowed in the room with the tree by myself because I would

knock it over and set the house on fire " (Nada has always been paranoid

about fires) Even now....she called me over 2 days ago...i had to stop what

i was doing and spend 4 hours helping her arrange all of her outdoor

Christmas ornaments....of course when i finally got out of there NOTHING and

I mean NOTHING was where " we " arranged it. GRRRR.....why did you suck 4

hours out of my day begging me for help and then do the exact OPPOSITE of

what I suggest? I mean....i knew that is how it would go down....and when i

saw how she changed it i just laughed...it gives me validation now.

So...when I got married my husband and I changed everything...we go to a

Christmas tree farm....ride out on the wagon, cut down the tree and then

ride back. Once back to the tree farm we enjoy some warm cider or hot

chocolate and some warm hot dogs and my kids get their picture taken with

santa. Once everything is rung up, the kids go out and help my hubby load

the tree onto the car and I sneak off and buy 3 ornaments...one for each of

them. We crank the Christmas carols when we get back and all get to work

getting the tree up. Yeah...we have 6 cats...so that is always fun. Once

the tree is up my husband puts the lights on, I put on the tinsel and my

girls drag out the box with all the Christmas ornaments. Before anything is

put on the tree, I give out the ornaments that I bought....they are

unwrapped and they each place them where they want them. We put an ornament

on the tree for my deceased son....and then one for my cat who is also

deceased...then the girls have at it. Last year was the first year the

decorations went all the way to the top. We have always just let the girls

decorate it, and if that means only the bottom 3 feet have ornaments, then

so be it.! 16 years now we have had a live tree and I haven't had any

allergic reaction to it!! I love Christmas....because my nada HATES my tree

and can't bear to look at it. (Our first year, she called social services on

us because we had a live Christmas tree in the house with our daughter, and

she thought it was a fire hazzard....thus we were putting our child in harms

way.) It's just too bad I can't keep it around for the entire year!!!

Kisses and Nibbles,

Bunny

-- Re: Christmas Trees

Hi Charlie,

The 'Christmas Tree' is the symbol of ultimate utility of failure, for Nadas

who need to feel superior ... what better way to demean a 'free thinking'

child than to illustrate that he/she cannot even decorate a damn tree

correctly.

I think ... it is a conspiracy. Nadas all over the world use symbolic icons

to demean us.

Since the GOAl is, anyway, to make us feel inferior ... what better

mechanism can there be than the ultimate Christian Holiday?

I choose to creat my own holiday traditions ... no damb tree. Carol

In a message dated 11/29/2006 9:48:11 AM Eastern Standard Time,

charlottehoneychurch@... writes:

Dear all,

Yesterday I bought a Christmas song on i-tunes. It was one from my

childhood. Then last

night, I had a dream where my subconsious wanted to tell me something. It

was about the

Christmas tree.

From my earliest memory, my nada used the Christmas tree as one of her

instruments to

make me seem inept, ridiculous and annihilated. Here's how she did it. She

and my

younger (split good) sister were the ones considered capable of decorating

the tree.

Whenever I tried to help, they would watch what I did, then verbally shame

me and give me

grief (that doesn't go THERE), and half the time they would go back and move

ornaments

away from where I had put them. If I wanted a certain something--like a

color of tinsel or

lights or such, there was more of that shaming, there would be a response in

a tone as if I

had just said the most ridiculous, insulting thing to them that deserved to

be completely

scoffed, rebuffed and dismissed. When I went away to school, they started

decorating the

tree before I came home, so I could not even participate at all. One year,

nada bought a

smaller tree and put it in the kitchen, and when I got home she gave me all

the older,

leftover ornaments and lights and said that was 'my' tree and I could

decorate it. And I

did, stupidly. (Not knowing about BPD. Now I would have refused of

course). This was all

surrounded by that terrible twisting of reality--like how dare I get angry

about it or try to

defend myself, they were doing absolutely NOTHING wrong, they didn't SAY I

was

ridiculous, they were letting me help, what was I TALKING about, why was I

so mean and

viscious?

I knew this had happened but I didn't realize how much it broke my heart

during

childhood til I dreamed about it. What little girl wants to be shamed with

the Christmas

tree? The idea was that I had no sense of beauty or decoration or such, I

was incapable of

being able to pick the right ornaments and put them in the right places,

because, overall, I

was a ridiculous person, not to be taken seriously, whose only motivation in

life was hate

for my nada. And this reality was so FORCED upon me, so confusing!!

So I am going to verify another reality here with all of you: Christmas

should be a fun and

loving time for the family. Nothing should be used to pit one child against

another,

including decoration of a tree. The mother's role should be to make sure

that all the

children feel included and festive and happy. It was absolutely right of me

to sense that

injustice was going on with the tree, and try to do something about it.

I was thinking of maybe trying to do my own tree this year at my apartment

.. To maybe

purge some of this crap.

Love

Charlie

[Guest guest]

Dear Bunny, Thanks so much for this! How very kind of you. Several

things--first, I can't

watch Charlie Brown. It's one of those things the media always told me I was

supposed to

like, but I could never stand it. UBM says KOs can't stand Alice in Wonderland

bks it's too

much like their childhood, and I think Charlie Brown is something similar to

that, for me.

Thank you for sharing your turn-around. Your tree experience sounds just

wonderful! I

know that I am going to have my own experiences like that one day--and no need

to

waste time getting started. If it can't be the tree I'll do something with my

friends or

whatever; but it's definitely time to start making my own, very happy Christmas

memories.

Can I especially say I was tickled by the ornament in honor of the deceased cat.

That is

the sortof thing that would delight a child, that never could have happened in

my

household!

I also completely relate to your nada moving things around after asking you to

'help' her

for four hours. I also, was somehow devoid of the ability to place things, in

her eyes. My

sister only was allowed that talent--perhaps bks my sister allowed nada to merge

w/her.

This shows itself now in the idea that nothing about me can be in the house--no

bedroom

of my own, no mementos from my childhood, no musical instruments, etc. Every

once

inawhile there are a few random pictures of me that will appear when nada needs

to do so

to split herself good--but it's usually stuff of my own she has usurped control

over. As a

matter of fact, they are all pictures of my own she has confiscated. No picture

I ever GAVE

her has been hung up, even some really nice professional ones. So I know what

you mean

there.

My nada was not a rager though--more of a hermit waif. She was too scared to be

the

witch in front of my dishrag. So I can't really relate to your chaotic

holidays. But I can

sympathize, and say I'm quite glad your ulcer and allergies are gone!

Best

Charlie

>

> Good golly Charlie....hasn't your mum ever seen the " Charlie Brown Christmas

> cartoon? In the words of Charlie Brown.... " Good Grief! " I'm glad you are

> healthy enough to see what her pickyness was really about....and I'm glad

> you are thinking about doing your tree....i hope you do...and when you do, I

> would love to see pictures. You know, for us KO's....there is something so

> liberating about those clarifying moments that others have....i wish none of

> us had to go through them....but somehow, the lesson we learn on our own is

> somewhat worth it. My grandmother would refer to it as learning something

> the hard way. Pfffft.....I don't have to be hit by a freaking train to know

> the damage it would do....but for some reason they seem to like those

> paralels.

>

> You know....I think the reason I find such validity in healing is because it

> is harder for people like us to heal. We have been programmed by

> unforgiving, critical, self-absorbed individuals who make us feel so

> helpless and worthless....to find that serenity is so re-assuring. Like

> there was a light at the end of the tunnel that we were told we didn't

> posess the ability to reach....but we did....and we did it in spite of them.

> ..not because of them.

>

> Anyway...I wanted to chime in here....yeah...Christmas was the same way at

> my house. Of course, we didn't have ANY holiday or birthday without

> complete and utter chaos. Yelling, screaming, throwing stuff....ridiculous

> accusations....hurling inappropriate remarks for stuff that happened 10

> years before that had NOTHING to do with the arguement. Without fail I

> would always end up sick...finally the doctor told my nada that it wasn't

> allergies...it was a stomach ulcer....caused by all the drama most likely!

> Christmas was always the same...my mother fought with my father for days to

> put up the fake tree (because I was allergic to the real ones....yeah...

> NOT!) and put the ugly gold lights on it....(because women can't do that

> kind of stuff)...my mother decorated the entire house...the entire tree..

> everything. I realize now, she did it all because it was ABOUT her. Even

> the little ornaments that I made at school weren't good enough for the tree.

> She would laugh at me like " oh....aren't you adorable you stupid pathetic

> little creature....you think you made something for the tree...hahahaha " I

> wasn't even allowed in the room with the tree by myself because I would

> knock it over and set the house on fire " (Nada has always been paranoid

> about fires) Even now....she called me over 2 days ago...i had to stop what

> i was doing and spend 4 hours helping her arrange all of her outdoor

> Christmas ornaments....of course when i finally got out of there NOTHING and

> I mean NOTHING was where " we " arranged it. GRRRR.....why did you suck 4

> hours out of my day begging me for help and then do the exact OPPOSITE of

> what I suggest? I mean....i knew that is how it would go down....and when i

> saw how she changed it i just laughed...it gives me validation now.

>

> So...when I got married my husband and I changed everything...we go to a

> Christmas tree farm....ride out on the wagon, cut down the tree and then

> ride back. Once back to the tree farm we enjoy some warm cider or hot

> chocolate and some warm hot dogs and my kids get their picture taken with

> santa. Once everything is rung up, the kids go out and help my hubby load

> the tree onto the car and I sneak off and buy 3 ornaments...one for each of

> them. We crank the Christmas carols when we get back and all get to work

> getting the tree up. Yeah...we have 6 cats...so that is always fun. Once

> the tree is up my husband puts the lights on, I put on the tinsel and my

> girls drag out the box with all the Christmas ornaments. Before anything is

> put on the tree, I give out the ornaments that I bought....they are

> unwrapped and they each place them where they want them. We put an ornament

> on the tree for my deceased son....and then one for my cat who is also

> deceased...then the girls have at it. Last year was the first year the

> decorations went all the way to the top. We have always just let the girls

> decorate it, and if that means only the bottom 3 feet have ornaments, then

> so be it.! 16 years now we have had a live tree and I haven't had any

> allergic reaction to it!! I love Christmas....because my nada HATES my tree

> and can't bear to look at it. (Our first year, she called social services on

> us because we had a live Christmas tree in the house with our daughter, and

> she thought it was a fire hazzard....thus we were putting our child in harms

> way.) It's just too bad I can't keep it around for the entire year!!!

>

>

>

> Kisses and Nibbles,

> Bunny

>

>

> -- Re: Christmas Trees

>

>

> Hi Charlie,

>

> The 'Christmas Tree' is the symbol of ultimate utility of failure, for Nadas

>

> who need to feel superior ... what better way to demean a 'free thinking'

> child than to illustrate that he/she cannot even decorate a damn tree

> correctly.

>

> I think ... it is a conspiracy. Nadas all over the world use symbolic icons

> to demean us.

>

> Since the GOAl is, anyway, to make us feel inferior ... what better

> mechanism can there be than the ultimate Christian Holiday?

>

> I choose to creat my own holiday traditions ... no damb tree. Carol

>

>

>

>

> In a message dated 11/29/2006 9:48:11 AM Eastern Standard Time,

> charlottehoneychurch@... writes:

>

> Dear all,

>

> Yesterday I bought a Christmas song on i-tunes. It was one from my

> childhood. Then last

> night, I had a dream where my subconsious wanted to tell me something. It

> was about the

> Christmas tree.

>

> From my earliest memory, my nada used the Christmas tree as one of her

> instruments to

> make me seem inept, ridiculous and annihilated. Here's how she did it. She

> and my

> younger (split good) sister were the ones considered capable of decorating

> the tree.

> Whenever I tried to help, they would watch what I did, then verbally shame

> me and give me

> grief (that doesn't go THERE), and half the time they would go back and move

>

> ornaments

> away from where I had put them. If I wanted a certain something--like a

> color of tinsel or

> lights or such, there was more of that shaming, there would be a response in

>

> a tone as if I

> had just said the most ridiculous, insulting thing to them that deserved to

> be completely

> scoffed, rebuffed and dismissed. When I went away to school, they started

> decorating the

> tree before I came home, so I could not even participate at all. One year,

> nada bought a

> smaller tree and put it in the kitchen, and when I got home she gave me all

> the older,

> leftover ornaments and lights and said that was 'my' tree and I could

> decorate it. And I

> did, stupidly. (Not knowing about BPD. Now I would have refused of

> course). This was all

> surrounded by that terrible twisting of reality--like how dare I get angry

> about it or try to

> defend myself, they were doing absolutely NOTHING wrong, they didn't SAY I

> was

> ridiculous, they were letting me help, what was I TALKING about, why was I

> so mean and

> viscious?

>

> I knew this had happened but I didn't realize how much it broke my heart

> during

> childhood til I dreamed about it. What little girl wants to be shamed with

> the Christmas

> tree? The idea was that I had no sense of beauty or decoration or such, I

> was incapable of

> being able to pick the right ornaments and put them in the right places,

> because, overall, I

> was a ridiculous person, not to be taken seriously, whose only motivation in

>

> life was hate

> for my nada. And this reality was so FORCED upon me, so confusing!!

>

> So I am going to verify another reality here with all of you: Christmas

> should be a fun and

> loving time for the family. Nothing should be used to pit one child against

> another,

> including decoration of a tree. The mother's role should be to make sure

> that all the

> children feel included and festive and happy. It was absolutely right of me

> to sense that

> injustice was going on with the tree, and try to do something about it.

>

> I was thinking of maybe trying to do my own tree this year at my apartment

> . To maybe

> purge some of this crap.

>

> Love

> Charlie

>

>

[Guest guest]

I thought I'd add my contribution to the Christmas stories (and yes--to whoever

remarked that the posts seem to have doubled lately, I do think it's all of our

traumatic holiday memories resurfacing!!)

I've always loved the AA idea that we should retell our stories until we are

tired of telling them. My Christmas story is one I have yet to tire of telling

so I'm assuming that is still plaguing my subconcious.

Christmases were always tricky in my house--the presents for nada had to be

plentiful and exactly what she'd asked for and the slightest, strangest thing

could set her off. For instance, last year, a simple chapstick in her stocking

caused an almost three hour screaming fit w/ step dad triggered by: Where did

you get this? From a gas station? Mobil you say? Which Mobil? There's no

Mobil near here. The one in X? What on earth were you doing over there? When

was this? Why didn't you tell me you'd been over there? And on and on until

she'd convinced herself that he was secretely keeping a mistress in X and had

never loved her etc. etc.

But the story I'm referring to happened when I was about 15. Each year, it

had been my tradition to make my parents breakfast in bed. That year, I got up

early, made homemade muffins, omelets and all sorts of goodies that took me

nearly three hours. Nada and step dad #1 were at it from 7 am on, screaming and

chasing one another around the upstairs which I tried to block out by listening

to a X-mas CD (I still remember it was a whole CD of carols played on bells). I

brought up the food, along with some fresh sprigs of holly (it's all very vivid,

strange) and left it outside their bedroom door because they were still

screaming and wouldn't let me in.

Shortly after that, my mother suddenly ran downstairs and told me to hide in

my room. I obeyed and ran upstairs to find the tray I'd so lovingly prepared

toppled over with muffins ground into the carpet and juice and coffee

spilled...I went into my room and suddenly, the cops showed up, their lights

blazing outside in the driveway, neighbors coming out of their houses to see

what I suddenly saw--step-dad being handcuffed and put in the cruiser.

Mom sped off immediately to the hospital, to have her wrist x-rayed because

she claimed he'd 'broken' it during their dispute. The doctors of course only

found some mild swelling (and my dad later informed me that she'd been clawing

at him and to defend himself he'd wrenched her arm off of him--I believe him as

I saw her attack him dozens of times and never saw him lay a finger on her).

However, she still had him arrested and charged with domestic abuse and got a

restraining order against him and I wasn't allowed to see him for seven months.

(And talk about a smear campaign...)

So there I sat, stunned, presents unopened, food all over the hallway, while

my dad was in jail and my mom didn't return for two days. I don't really

remember what I did when I was home alone during those two days but god, it was

awful, so sad. Oh dear, here I am crying at Starbucks:)

Anyway, like I suspected, that just needed to get retold and it feels good to

acknowledge that this happened, and is a part of me and my memories, not just

some distanced thing that I witnessed...

Thanks for anyone who read this all the way to the end.

charlottehoneychurch wrote:

Dear all,

Yesterday I bought a Christmas song on i-tunes. It was one from my childhood.

Then last

night, I had a dream where my subconsious wanted to tell me something. It was

about the

Christmas tree.

From my earliest memory, my nada used the Christmas tree as one of her

instruments to

make me seem inept, ridiculous and annihilated. Here's how she did it. She and

my

younger (split good) sister were the ones considered capable of decorating the

tree.

Whenever I tried to help, they would watch what I did, then verbally shame me

and give me

grief (that doesn't go THERE), and half the time they would go back and move

ornaments

away from where I had put them. If I wanted a certain something--like a color of

tinsel or

lights or such, there was more of that shaming, there would be a response in a

tone as if I

had just said the most ridiculous, insulting thing to them that deserved to be

completely

scoffed, rebuffed and dismissed. When I went away to school, they started

decorating the

tree before I came home, so I could not even participate at all. One year, nada

bought a

smaller tree and put it in the kitchen, and when I got home she gave me all the

older,

leftover ornaments and lights and said that was 'my' tree and I could decorate

it. And I

did, stupidly. (Not knowing about BPD. Now I would have refused of course). This

was all

surrounded by that terrible twisting of reality--like how dare I get angry about

it or try to

defend myself, they were doing absolutely NOTHING wrong, they didn't SAY I was

ridiculous, they were letting me help, what was I TALKING about, why was I so

mean and

viscious?

I knew this had happened but I didn't realize how much it broke my heart during

childhood til I dreamed about it. What little girl wants to be shamed with the

Christmas

tree? The idea was that I had no sense of beauty or decoration or such, I was

incapable of

being able to pick the right ornaments and put them in the right places,

because, overall, I

was a ridiculous person, not to be taken seriously, whose only motivation in

life was hate

for my nada. And this reality was so FORCED upon me, so confusing!!

So I am going to verify another reality here with all of you: Christmas should

be a fun and

loving time for the family. Nothing should be used to pit one child against

another,

including decoration of a tree. The mother's role should be to make sure that

all the

children feel included and festive and happy. It was absolutely right of me to

sense that

injustice was going on with the tree, and try to do something about it.

I was thinking of maybe trying to do my own tree this year at my apartment ....

To maybe

purge some of this crap.

Love

Charlie

---------------------------------

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