Re: Death with Dignity - [possibly upsetting]

[Guest guest]

,

 

I truly believe in what you say.  Thanks for having the courage to say what

some of us have been thinking for a long time.

Melody

Subject: Death with Dignity - [possibly upsetting]

To: livercirrhosissupport

Date: Friday, June 10, 2011, 5:35 PM

 

Hi everybody

I dont post much here, because I am more interested in listening and learning,

than about speaking.

But every so often a topic comes up that I wish to comment on.

This is one, and I hope that this is acceptable.

 

I have discussed the - 'Death with Dignity' - topic with quite a few people

over the years.

Family, friends, religious, legal, and medical folks, etc.

It is a topic that strikes each one of us on a very personal level, and one

that most of us rarely have to dwell on [thank God].

It is also a very serious and contraversial topic, as we each have our own ideas

and beliefs about what is right or wrong, for us personally, or for other people

as a whole.

 

I would like to share my point of view with the group, [if that is ok], and

listen to everybodys feedback.

Some people may, or may not agree with what I am about to say, but I would like

to remind everyone that this is just 'my own personal opinion, about my own

personal life'.

- I am not trying to compel anyone else to agree with me, or to do anything that

mught be deemed 'wrong'.

- I do not intend to 'argue' about it, but I will discuss it [maybe].

 

BACKGROUND and RATIONALE -

I was raised up in the Christian religion, and was told that 'suicide' was

against God's wishes, and that people who committed 'suicide' would burn in Hell

for Eturnity.

I do NOT believe this to be a TRUTH, and I have always questioned

this rationality for 3 reasons -

1 - I believe that 'my' God loves me - unconditionally - so I doubt that he

would really throw me away if I committed suicide.

2 - I believe that suicide is just one more 'option', of many, in life.

3 - Logic tells me that some, or most people may actually be committing suicide

in various ways, by their choices in life.

 

IE: Soldiers and police place themselves in harms way. Driving your vehicle may

result in a deadly accident. Some forms of sport, or the foods that you eat may

eventually kill you. Choosing to climb a ladder, or flying in a plane may result

in a deadly fall. Taking drugs, crossing the street, tripping down the stairs,

going into a store that is being held up by armed bandits, choosing to live in a

natural disaster or war zone, and on and on.

- All are personal choices with mostly 'un-foreseeable' results, except for one.

Did we actually, in reality, commit suicide by our choices?

 

If this is the case, are we all, then really doomed by God for this?

Even the 'holiest' of people?

Or does this rule apply to only those who conciously OD, or blow their brains

out? 

 

Long before I ever became aware of Dr Kevorkian's work in assisted suicide, I

had come to the awareness that each of us - OWNS - our own life.

In my opinion, each life is a personal gift - given to us by God at

conception - and no other person has the right, [under most conditions], to

take it from us, or enslave us in any way.

I have always admired Dr Kevorkian for stepping up to the plate, and defying the

laws of the land [and religion], and helping people choose 'how to die with

dignity'.

I believe that he was attempting to act correctly under the basis that each

persons life is their own, to do with as they see fit.

 

I have always lived my life believing this way also, and it has also affected

how I try to treat others.

- It has kept me from becomming a military or police person, because I do not

wish to be put in a position where I might be required to take another persons

life.

- Likewise, it has kept me from becomming a criminal, where I might be required

to defend myself, or kill another.

- It has kept me from ever sitting on jury duty, because I do not know if I

could make a correct judgement about an accused persons guilt, and lock them in

a cage.

- I have never voted because I am afraid that the person I vote for may act in

some manner that will result is the suffering, or demise of others.

 

- Even in my relationships with a spouce, I have never been the 'head of the

house', because who am I to lord it over someone else, in any manner?

[Especially someone who I say that I love.]

- I try to always treat everyone as my equal - even my children, friends,

co-workers, employers, etc.

No one is superior to me, and I am not superior to anyone else - 'as a bottom

line'.

[i do admit - sometimes I fail, but I always 'try' to live this value.]

 

I have never wanted to 'KICK', or suffer, when I die.

My Mothers heart stopped, and she was dead before she hit the floor.

She was un-aware of anything, she did not suffer, and knew nothing.

This is the manner in which ideally I wish to die also, if at all possible.

I also wish that each of us might be so blessed, even though I know that this

may not always be the case.

 

This may not be possible for me personally, though.

I have liver disease [HCV], and so far have been unable to treat due to my

heart.

I am possibly, so to speak, 'between a rock and a hard spot'.

I do try to take care of myself, and slow down the deterioration of my health

and body by various means.

But I am also afraid that this effort may not be enough.

Time will tell.

 

A long time ago, I came to the conclusion, that 'if' my quality of life degrades

to the point where I am no longer comfortable with living - then I wish to be

able to commit suicide, and end my life - 'instantly', if at all possible.

Some people may say that that is wrong, or that I must be mentally unbalanced,

but I disagree.

 

My older brother committed suicide, overdosing on narcotics, then when

completely stoned, he drank anti-freeze.

He had mental disorders, and to my knowledge he never saw a 'happy' day during

his 40 years of life.

I believe that he wanted to be healthy and happy, but that he was never able to

attain this.

I also believe that he did suffer some during this suicide process, because

death by anti-freeze is very painful, even if one is in a stupor.

I say this because when the police found his body, he was in the fetal position.

I personally thank God, that my brother had a way to end his life-long

suffering, although I do miss him.

 

I have talked with others, as I have said, about my wish to have the option to

commit suicide, if need be.

I have been made aware of the fact that it may cause trama to those who love me,

should I do so.

No doubt it probably will to some, but I fall back on the fact that my life is

mine alone, to do with as I see fit, providing I do as little damage to others,

as is possible.

I do not wish to cause upset or trama to others, but I am not in control of that

for the most part.

Each person must come to grips with their own reality, in relation to others.

 

I have thought that if I did commit suicide, I would wish to do so out in the

woods, without poisons.....alone.

This is so that my last view is of the glory of nature, totally quiet and at

peace within, and that the animals can eat me before my body is discovered.

I say this because I have eaten plants and animals all my life to sustain my

body.

I feel that it is only right and proper to give my body back to nature, rather

than be cremated, or filled with poisonous preservatives [plasticized], and

buried.

This is also how some American Indians treat their dead, and the rationale

behind their actions.

 

One last note -

- I do believe that a person [myself] should strive to live for as long as

possible, healthy and happily, because life really is a blessing, and a great

gift.

- I do not believe that a person should wantonly throw their life away, for any

reason, if there is the remotest possibility that one can live healthy and

happily, and reap the rewards of life.

- I always have, and I always shall do everything within my power to achieve a

full and long life, and I strongly encourage everyone else to try to do the

same.

 

But, like I say, I do believe that each persons life is their own, to do with

as they see fit, and that the ability to die with dignity is a 'God given

right', not to be imposed on by any other person, or by any society as a whole.

 

Ok, sorry for my long post.

I just wanted to share my viewpoint with everyone, and my reasons for believing

as I do.

I hope that I did not offend anyone.

I pray that each of us can heal, live forever healthy and happy, and that this

topic will never become an issue for any of us.

 

love

don in ks 

 

 

 

[Guest guest]

Some just don't understand this conmcept because they have not been put into a

situation where there is  no cure for the suffering............ 

SUE

Subject: Death with Dignity - [possibly upsetting]

To: livercirrhosissupport

Date: Friday, June 10, 2011, 5:35 PM

 

Hi everybody

I dont post much here, because I am more interested in listening and learning,

than about speaking.

But every so often a topic comes up that I wish to comment on.

This is one, and I hope that this is acceptable.

 

I have discussed the - 'Death with Dignity' - topic with quite a few people

over the years.

Family, friends, religious, legal, and medical folks, etc.

It is a topic that strikes each one of us on a very personal level, and one

that most of us rarely have to dwell on [thank God].

It is also a very serious and contraversial topic, as we each have our own ideas

and beliefs about what is right or wrong, for us personally, or for other people

as a whole.

 

I would like to share my point of view with the group, [if that is ok], and

listen to everybodys feedback.

Some people may, or may not agree with what I am about to say, but I would like

to remind everyone that this is just 'my own personal opinion, about my own

personal life'.

- I am not trying to compel anyone else to agree with me, or to do anything that

mught be deemed 'wrong'.

- I do not intend to 'argue' about it, but I will discuss it [maybe].

 

BACKGROUND and RATIONALE -

I was raised up in the Christian religion, and was told that 'suicide' was

against God's wishes, and that people who committed 'suicide' would burn in Hell

for Eturnity.

I do NOT believe this to be a TRUTH, and I have always questioned

this rationality for 3 reasons -

1 - I believe that 'my' God loves me - unconditionally - so I doubt that he

would really throw me away if I committed suicide.

2 - I believe that suicide is just one more 'option', of many, in life.

3 - Logic tells me that some, or most people may actually be committing suicide

in various ways, by their choices in life.

 

IE: Soldiers and police place themselves in harms way. Driving your vehicle may

result in a deadly accident. Some forms of sport, or the foods that you eat may

eventually kill you. Choosing to climb a ladder, or flying in a plane may result

in a deadly fall. Taking drugs, crossing the street, tripping down the stairs,

going into a store that is being held up by armed bandits, choosing to live in a

natural disaster or war zone, and on and on.

- All are personal choices with mostly 'un-foreseeable' results, except for one.

Did we actually, in reality, commit suicide by our choices?

 

If this is the case, are we all, then really doomed by God for this?

Even the 'holiest' of people?

Or does this rule apply to only those who conciously OD, or blow their brains

out? 

 

Long before I ever became aware of Dr Kevorkian's work in assisted suicide, I

had come to the awareness that each of us - OWNS - our own life.

In my opinion, each life is a personal gift - given to us by God at

conception - and no other person has the right, [under most conditions], to

take it from us, or enslave us in any way.

I have always admired Dr Kevorkian for stepping up to the plate, and defying the

laws of the land [and religion], and helping people choose 'how to die with

dignity'.

I believe that he was attempting to act correctly under the basis that each

persons life is their own, to do with as they see fit.

 

I have always lived my life believing this way also, and it has also affected

how I try to treat others.

- It has kept me from becomming a military or police person, because I do not

wish to be put in a position where I might be required to take another persons

life.

- Likewise, it has kept me from becomming a criminal, where I might be required

to defend myself, or kill another.

- It has kept me from ever sitting on jury duty, because I do not know if I

could make a correct judgement about an accused persons guilt, and lock them in

a cage.

- I have never voted because I am afraid that the person I vote for may act in

some manner that will result is the suffering, or demise of others.

 

- Even in my relationships with a spouce, I have never been the 'head of the

house', because who am I to lord it over someone else, in any manner?

[Especially someone who I say that I love.]

- I try to always treat everyone as my equal - even my children, friends,

co-workers, employers, etc.

No one is superior to me, and I am not superior to anyone else - 'as a bottom

line'.

[i do admit - sometimes I fail, but I always 'try' to live this value.]

 

I have never wanted to 'KICK', or suffer, when I die.

My Mothers heart stopped, and she was dead before she hit the floor.

She was un-aware of anything, she did not suffer, and knew nothing.

This is the manner in which ideally I wish to die also, if at all possible.

I also wish that each of us might be so blessed, even though I know that this

may not always be the case.

 

This may not be possible for me personally, though.

I have liver disease [HCV], and so far have been unable to treat due to my

heart.

I am possibly, so to speak, 'between a rock and a hard spot'.

I do try to take care of myself, and slow down the deterioration of my health

and body by various means.

But I am also afraid that this effort may not be enough.

Time will tell.

 

A long time ago, I came to the conclusion, that 'if' my quality of life degrades

to the point where I am no longer comfortable with living - then I wish to be

able to commit suicide, and end my life - 'instantly', if at all possible.

Some people may say that that is wrong, or that I must be mentally unbalanced,

but I disagree.

 

My older brother committed suicide, overdosing on narcotics, then when

completely stoned, he drank anti-freeze.

He had mental disorders, and to my knowledge he never saw a 'happy' day during

his 40 years of life.

I believe that he wanted to be healthy and happy, but that he was never able to

attain this.

I also believe that he did suffer some during this suicide process, because

death by anti-freeze is very painful, even if one is in a stupor.

I say this because when the police found his body, he was in the fetal position.

I personally thank God, that my brother had a way to end his life-long

suffering, although I do miss him.

 

I have talked with others, as I have said, about my wish to have the option to

commit suicide, if need be.

I have been made aware of the fact that it may cause trama to those who love me,

should I do so.

No doubt it probably will to some, but I fall back on the fact that my life is

mine alone, to do with as I see fit, providing I do as little damage to others,

as is possible.

I do not wish to cause upset or trama to others, but I am not in control of that

for the most part.

Each person must come to grips with their own reality, in relation to others.

 

I have thought that if I did commit suicide, I would wish to do so out in the

woods, without poisons.....alone.

This is so that my last view is of the glory of nature, totally quiet and at

peace within, and that the animals can eat me before my body is discovered.

I say this because I have eaten plants and animals all my life to sustain my

body.

I feel that it is only right and proper to give my body back to nature, rather

than be cremated, or filled with poisonous preservatives [plasticized], and

buried.

This is also how some American Indians treat their dead, and the rationale

behind their actions.

 

One last note -

- I do believe that a person [myself] should strive to live for as long as

possible, healthy and happily, because life really is a blessing, and a great

gift.

- I do not believe that a person should wantonly throw their life away, for any

reason, if there is the remotest possibility that one can live healthy and

happily, and reap the rewards of life.

- I always have, and I always shall do everything within my power to achieve a

full and long life, and I strongly encourage everyone else to try to do the

same.

 

But, like I say, I do believe that each persons life is their own, to do with

as they see fit, and that the ability to die with dignity is a 'God given

right', not to be imposed on by any other person, or by any society as a whole.

 

Ok, sorry for my long post.

I just wanted to share my viewpoint with everyone, and my reasons for believing

as I do.

I hope that I did not offend anyone.

I pray that each of us can heal, live forever healthy and happy, and that this

topic will never become an issue for any of us.

 

love

don in ks 

 

 

 

[Guest guest]

you are so right, People don't understand the life changes that have to be made

to survie each day.

Subject: Death with Dignity - [possibly upsetting]

To: livercirrhosissupport

Date: Friday, June 10, 2011, 5:35 PM

 

Hi everybody

I dont post much here, because I am more interested in listening and learning,

than about speaking.

But every so often a topic comes up that I wish to comment on.

This is one, and I hope that this is acceptable.

 

I have discussed the - 'Death with Dignity' - topic with quite a few people

over the years.

Family, friends, religious, legal, and medical folks, etc.

It is a topic that strikes each one of us on a very personal level, and one

that most of us rarely have to dwell on [thank God].

It is also a very serious and contraversial topic, as we each have our own ideas

and beliefs about what is right or wrong, for us personally, or for other people

as a whole.

 

I would like to share my point of view with the group, [if that is ok], and

listen to everybodys feedback.

Some people may, or may not agree with what I am about to say, but I would like

to remind everyone that this is just 'my own personal opinion, about my own

personal life'.

- I am not trying to compel anyone else to agree with me, or to do anything that

mught be deemed 'wrong'.

- I do not intend to 'argue' about it, but I will discuss it [maybe].

 

BACKGROUND and RATIONALE -

I was raised up in the Christian religion, and was told that 'suicide' was

against God's wishes, and that people who committed 'suicide' would burn in Hell

for Eturnity.

I do NOT believe this to be a TRUTH, and I have always questioned

this rationality for 3 reasons -

1 - I believe that 'my' God loves me - unconditionally - so I doubt that he

would really throw me away if I committed suicide.

2 - I believe that suicide is just one more 'option', of many, in life.

3 - Logic tells me that some, or most people may actually be committing suicide

in various ways, by their choices in life.

 

IE: Soldiers and police place themselves in harms way. Driving your vehicle may

result in a deadly accident. Some forms of sport, or the foods that you eat may

eventually kill you. Choosing to climb a ladder, or flying in a plane may result

in a deadly fall. Taking drugs, crossing the street, tripping down the stairs,

going into a store that is being held up by armed bandits, choosing to live in a

natural disaster or war zone, and on and on.

- All are personal choices with mostly 'un-foreseeable' results, except for one.

Did we actually, in reality, commit suicide by our choices?

 

If this is the case, are we all, then really doomed by God for this?

Even the 'holiest' of people?

Or does this rule apply to only those who conciously OD, or blow their brains

out? 

 

Long before I ever became aware of Dr Kevorkian's work in assisted suicide, I

had come to the awareness that each of us - OWNS - our own life.

In my opinion, each life is a personal gift - given to us by God at

conception - and no other person has the right, [under most conditions], to

take it from us, or enslave us in any way.

I have always admired Dr Kevorkian for stepping up to the plate, and defying the

laws of the land [and religion], and helping people choose 'how to die with

dignity'.

I believe that he was attempting to act correctly under the basis that each

persons life is their own, to do with as they see fit.

 

I have always lived my life believing this way also, and it has also affected

how I try to treat others.

- It has kept me from becomming a military or police person, because I do not

wish to be put in a position where I might be required to take another persons

life.

- Likewise, it has kept me from becomming a criminal, where I might be required

to defend myself, or kill another.

- It has kept me from ever sitting on jury duty, because I do not know if I

could make a correct judgement about an accused persons guilt, and lock them in

a cage.

- I have never voted because I am afraid that the person I vote for may act in

some manner that will result is the suffering, or demise of others.

 

- Even in my relationships with a spouce, I have never been the 'head of the

house', because who am I to lord it over someone else, in any manner?

[Especially someone who I say that I love.]

- I try to always treat everyone as my equal - even my children, friends,

co-workers, employers, etc.

No one is superior to me, and I am not superior to anyone else - 'as a bottom

line'.

[i do admit - sometimes I fail, but I always 'try' to live this value.]

 

I have never wanted to 'KICK', or suffer, when I die.

My Mothers heart stopped, and she was dead before she hit the floor.

She was un-aware of anything, she did not suffer, and knew nothing.

This is the manner in which ideally I wish to die also, if at all possible.

I also wish that each of us might be so blessed, even though I know that this

may not always be the case.

 

This may not be possible for me personally, though.R>I have liver disease [HCV],

and so far have been unable to treat due to my heart.

I am possibly, so to speak, 'between a rock and a hard spot'.

I do try to take care of myself, and slow down the deterioration of my health

and body by various means.

But I am also afraid that this effort may not be enough.

Time will tell.

 

A long time ago, I came to the conclusion, that 'if' my quality of life degrades

to the point where I am no longer comfortable with living - then I wish to be

able to commit suicide, and end my life - 'instantly', if at all possible.

Some people may say that that is wrong, or that I must be mentally unbalanced,

but I disagree.

 

My older brother committed suicide, overdosing on narcotics, then when

completely stoned, he drank anti-freeze.

He had mental disorders, and to my knowledge he never saw a 'happy' day during

his 40 years of life.

I believe that he wanted to be healthy and happy, but that he was never able to

attain this.

I also believe that he did suffer some during this suicide process, because

death by anti-freeze is very painful, even if one is in a stupor.

I say this because when the police found his body, he was in the fetal position.

I personally thank God, that my brother had a way to end his life-long

suffering, although I do miss him.

 

I have talked with others, as I have said, about my wish to have the option to

commit suicide, if need be.

I have been made aware of the fact that it may cause trama to those who love me,

should I do so.

No doubt it probably will to some, but I fall back on the fact that my life is

mine alone, to do with as I see fit, providing I do as little damage to others,

as is possible.

I do not wish to cause upset or trama to others, but I am not in control of that

for the most part.

Each person must come to grips with their own reality, in relation to others.

 

I have thought that if I did commit suicide, I would wish to do so out in the

woods, without poisons.....alone.

This is so that my last view is of the glory of nature, totally quiet and at

peace within, and that the animals can eat me before my body is discovered.

I say this because I have eaten plants and animals all my life to sustain my

body.

I feel that it is only right and proper to give my body back to nature, rather

than be cremated, or filled with poisonous preservatives [plasticized], and

buried.

This is also how some American Indians treat their dead, and the rationale

behind their actions.

 

One last note -

- I do believe that a person [myself] should strive to live for as long as

possible, healthy and happily, because life really is a blessing, and a great

gift.

- I do not believe that a person should wantonly throw their life away, for any

reason, if there is the remotest possibility that one can live healthy and

happily, and reap the rewards of life.

- I always have, and I always shall do everything within my power to achieve a

full and long life, and I strongly encourage everyone else to try to do the

same.

 

But, like I say, I do believe that each persons life is their own, to do with

as they see fit, and that the ability to die with dignity is a 'God given

right', not to be imposed on by any other person, or by any society as a whole.

 

Ok, sorry for my long post.

I just wanted to share my viewpoint with everyone, and my reasons for believing

as I do.

I hope that I did not offend anyone.

I pray that each of us can heal, live forever healthy and happy, and that this

topic will never become an issue for any of us.

 

love

don in ks 

 

 

 

[Guest guest]

all i can say is what the bible says God is the giver and taker of life..Only

he has that right..who knows what he intended to do for us...just sayin

Annie

> To: livercirrhosissupport

> From: esp2469@...

> Date: Fri, 10 Jun 2011 16:36:02 -0700

> Subject: Re: Death with Dignity - [possibly

upsetting]

>

> you are so right, People don't understand the life changes that have to be

made to survie each day.

>

>

>

>

> Subject: Death with Dignity - [possibly upsetting]

> To: livercirrhosissupport

> Date: Friday, June 10, 2011, 5:35 PM

>

>

>

> Hi everybody

> I dont post much here, because I am more interested in listening and learning,

than about speaking.

> But every so often a topic comes up that I wish to comment on.

> This is one, and I hope that this is acceptable.

>

> I have discussed the - 'Death with Dignity' - topic with quite a few people

over the years.

> Family, friends, religious, legal, and medical folks, etc.

> It is a topic that strikes each one of us on a very personal level, and one

that most of us rarely have to dwell on [thank God].

> It is also a very serious and contraversial topic, as we each have our own

ideas and beliefs about what is right or wrong, for us personally, or for other

people as a whole.

>

> I would like to share my point of view with the group, [if that is ok], and

listen to everybodys feedback.

> Some people may, or may not agree with what I am about to say, but I would

like to remind everyone that this is just 'my own personal opinion, about my own

personal life'.

> - I am not trying to compel anyone else to agree with me, or to do anything

that mught be deemed 'wrong'.

> - I do not intend to 'argue' about it, but I will discuss it [maybe].

>

> BACKGROUND and RATIONALE -

> I was raised up in the Christian religion, and was told that 'suicide' was

against God's wishes, and that people who committed 'suicide' would burn in Hell

for Eturnity.

> I do NOT believe this to be a TRUTH, and I have always questioned this

rationality for 3 reasons -

> 1 - I believe that 'my' God loves me - unconditionally - so I doubt that he

would really throw me away if I committed suicide.

> 2 - I believe that suicide is just one more 'option', of many, in life.

> 3 - Logic tells me that some, or most people may actually be committing

suicide in various ways, by their choices in life.

>

> IE: Soldiers and police place themselves in harms way. Driving your vehicle

may result in a deadly accident. Some forms of sport, or the foods that you eat

may eventually kill you. Choosing to climb a ladder, or flying in a plane may

result in a deadly fall. Taking drugs, crossing the street, tripping down the

stairs, going into a store that is being held up by armed bandits, choosing to

live in a natural disaster or war zone, and on and on.

> - All are personal choices with mostly 'un-foreseeable' results, except for

one.

> Did we actually, in reality, commit suicide by our choices?

>

> If this is the case, are we all, then really doomed by God for this?

> Even the 'holiest' of people?

> Or does this rule apply to only those who conciously OD, or blow their brains

out?

>

> Long before I ever became aware of Dr Kevorkian's work in assisted suicide, I

had come to the awareness that each of us - OWNS - our own life.

> In my opinion, each life is a personal gift - given to us by God at conception

- and no other person has the right, [under most conditions], to take it from

us, or enslave us in any way.

> I have always admired Dr Kevorkian for stepping up to the plate, and defying

the laws of the land [and religion], and helping people choose 'how to die with

dignity'.

> I believe that he was attempting to act correctly under the basis that each

persons life is their own, to do with as they see fit.

>

> I have always lived my life believing this way also, and it has also affected

how I try to treat others.

> - It has kept me from becomming a military or police person, because I do not

wish to be put in a position where I might be required to take another persons

life.

> - Likewise, it has kept me from becomming a criminal, where I might be

required to defend myself, or kill another.

> - It has kept me from ever sitting on jury duty, because I do not know if I

could make a correct judgement about an accused persons guilt, and lock them in

a cage.

> - I have never voted because I am afraid that the person I vote for may act in

some manner that will result is the suffering, or demise of others.

>

> - Even in my relationships with a spouce, I have never been the 'head of the

house', because who am I to lord it over someone else, in any manner?

> [Especially someone who I say that I love.]

> - I try to always treat everyone as my equal - even my children, friends,

co-workers, employers, etc.

> No one is superior to me, and I am not superior to anyone else - 'as a bottom

line'.

> [i do admit - sometimes I fail, but I always 'try' to live this value.]

>

> I have never wanted to 'KICK', or suffer, when I die.

> My Mothers heart stopped, and she was dead before she hit the floor.

> She was un-aware of anything, she did not suffer, and knew nothing.

> This is the manner in which ideally I wish to die also, if at all possible.

> I also wish that each of us might be so blessed, even though I know that this

may not always be the case.

>

> This may not be possible for me personally, though.R>I have liver disease

[HCV], and so far have been unable to treat due to my heart.

> I am possibly, so to speak, 'between a rock and a hard spot'.

> I do try to take care of myself, and slow down the deterioration of my health

and body by various means.

> But I am also afraid that this effort may not be enough.

> Time will tell.

>

> A long time ago, I came to the conclusion, that 'if' my quality of life

degrades to the point where I am no longer comfortable with living - then I wish

to be able to commit suicide, and end my life - 'instantly', if at all possible.

> Some people may say that that is wrong, or that I must be mentally unbalanced,

but I disagree.

>

> My older brother committed suicide, overdosing on narcotics, then when

completely stoned, he drank anti-freeze.

> He had mental disorders, and to my knowledge he never saw a 'happy' day during

his 40 years of life.

> I believe that he wanted to be healthy and happy, but that he was never able

to attain this.

> I also believe that he did suffer some during this suicide process, because

death by anti-freeze is very painful, even if one is in a stupor.

> I say this because when the police found his body, he was in the fetal

position.

> I personally thank God, that my brother had a way to end his life-long

suffering, although I do miss him.

>

> I have talked with others, as I have said, about my wish to have the option to

commit suicide, if need be.

> I have been made aware of the fact that it may cause trama to those who love

me, should I do so.

> No doubt it probably will to some, but I fall back on the fact that my life is

mine alone, to do with as I see fit, providing I do as little damage to others,

as is possible.

> I do not wish to cause upset or trama to others, but I am not in control of

that for the most part.

> Each person must come to grips with their own reality, in relation to others.

>

> I have thought that if I did commit suicide, I would wish to do so out in the

woods, without poisons.....alone.

> This is so that my last view is of the glory of nature, totally quiet and at

peace within, and that the animals can eat me before my body is discovered.

> I say this because I have eaten plants and animals all my life to sustain my

body.

> I feel that it is only right and proper to give my body back to nature, rather

than be cremated, or filled with poisonous preservatives [plasticized], and

buried.

> This is also how some American Indians treat their dead, and the rationale

behind their actions.

>

> One last note -

> - I do believe that a person [myself] should strive to live for as long as

possible, healthy and happily, because life really is a blessing, and a great

gift.

> - I do not believe that a person should wantonly throw their life away, for

any reason, if there is the remotest possibility that one can live healthy and

happily, and reap the rewards of life.

> - I always have, and I always shall do everything within my power to achieve a

full and long life, and I strongly encourage everyone else to try to do the

same.

>

> But, like I say, I do believe that each persons life is their own, to do with

as they see fit, and that the ability to die with dignity is a 'God given

right', not to be imposed on by any other person, or by any society as a whole.

>

> Ok, sorry for my long post.

> I just wanted to share my viewpoint with everyone, and my reasons for

believing as I do.

> I hope that I did not offend anyone.

> I pray that each of us can heal, live forever healthy and happy, and that this

topic will never become an issue for any of us.

>

> love

> don in ks

>

>

>

>

>

[Guest guest]

I lost my very very best friend in the whole world in August 2006. After she

died, and I was diagnosed with end stage liver disease, I had a choice to make.

I had to get sober in order to have any kind of chance to live at all. My liver

was close to failure, and I had no clotting factors left. Another really good

friend of mine told me about the church's teaching on the subject of suicide. I

am a devout Catholic. He was convinced that we would never be with our loved

ones for eternity of we committed suicide. This subject is not something I take

lightly at all. My dear wife has a terrible genetic disorder, and suffers

terribly. We talk about this a lot. I happen to believe my friend that suicide

will mean that I will not be able to see my loved ones who have passed ever

again, or be with my wife in the after life.

Just around the corner is an event so profound that none of us can even imagine

it. It is called the SINGULARITY.

http://singinst.org/singularityfaq?gclid=CNzzgOb7rKkCFcO8Kgods3ptPA#HowLikelyIsA\

n

Computers will become intelligent. I firmly believe that end stage liver

disease will seem as simple to solve as food safety is today. Before

microscopes, no one knew about simple bacteria which killed millions of people.

MILLIONS of people. Simply because they didnt know that food has a three hour

rule, once it reaches the temps between 40 and 140. It grows bacteria,

especially botulism with will absolutely KILL you. I believe I will not commit

suicide and I will wait for the day when the doctor can unleash a nano robot in

to my blood stream which will untangle liver fibrosis, and re attach all of my

bile ducts and blood vessles in there, and I will be better, and I will live for

a long time. This day is right around the ... corner. Bobby

________________________________

To: livercirrhosissupport

Sent: Fri, June 10, 2011 4:35:15 PM

Subject: Death with Dignity - [possibly upsetting]

Hi everybody

I dont post much here, because I am more interested in listening and learning,

than about speaking.

But every so often a topic comes up that I wish to comment on.

This is one, and I hope that this is acceptable.

I have discussed the - 'Death with Dignity' - topic with quite a few people over

the years.

Family, friends, religious, legal, and medical folks, etc.

It is a topic that strikes each one of us on a very personal level, and one that

most of us rarely have to dwell on [thank God].

It is also a very serious and contraversial topic, as we each have our own ideas

and beliefs about what is right or wrong, for us personally, or for other people

as a whole.

I would like to share my point of view with the group, [if that is ok], and

listen to everybodys feedback.

Some people may, or may not agree with what I am about to say, but I would like

to remind everyone that this is just 'my own personal opinion, about my own

personal life'.

- I am not trying to compel anyone else to agree with me, or to do anything that

mught be deemed 'wrong'.

- I do not intend to 'argue' about it, but I will discuss it [maybe].

BACKGROUND and RATIONALE -

I was raised up in the Christian religion, and was told that 'suicide' was

against God's wishes, and that people who committed 'suicide' would burn in Hell

for Eturnity.

I do NOT believe this to be a TRUTH, and I have always questioned

this rationality for 3 reasons -

1 - I believe that 'my' God loves me - unconditionally - so I doubt that he

would really throw me away if I committed suicide.

2 - I believe that suicide is just one more 'option', of many, in life.

3 - Logic tells me that some, or most people may actually be committing suicide

in various ways, by their choices in life.

IE: Soldiers and police place themselves in harms way. Driving your vehicle may

result in a deadly accident. Some forms of sport, or the foods that you eat may

eventually kill you. Choosing to climb a ladder, or flying in a plane may result

in a deadly fall. Taking drugs, crossing the street, tripping down the stairs,

going into a store that is being held up by armed bandits, choosing to live in a

natural disaster or war zone, and on and on.

- All are personal choices with mostly 'un-foreseeable' results, except for one.

Did we actually, in reality, commit suicide by our choices?

If this is the case, are we all, then really doomed by God for this?

Even the 'holiest' of people?

Or does this rule apply to only those who conciously OD, or blow their brains

out?

Long before I ever became aware of Dr Kevorkian's work in assisted suicide, I

had come to the awareness that each of us - OWNS - our own life.

In my opinion, each life is a personal gift - given to us by God at

conception - and no other person has the right, [under most conditions], to take

it from us, or enslave us in any way.

I have always admired Dr Kevorkian for stepping up to the plate, and defying the

laws of the land [and religion], and helping people choose 'how to die with

dignity'.

I believe that he was attempting to act correctly under the basis that each

persons life is their own, to do with as they see fit.

I have always lived my life believing this way also, and it has also affected

how I try to treat others.

- It has kept me from becomming a military or police person, because I do not

wish to be put in a position where I might be required to take another persons

life.

- Likewise, it has kept me from becomming a criminal, where I might be required

to defend myself, or kill another.

- It has kept me from ever sitting on jury duty, because I do not know if I

could make a correct judgement about an accused persons guilt, and lock them in

a cage.

- I have never voted because I am afraid that the person I vote for may act in

some manner that will result is the suffering, or demise of others.

- Even in my relationships with a spouce, I have never been the 'head of the

house', because who am I to lord it over someone else, in any manner?

[Especially someone who I say that I love.]

- I try to always treat everyone as my equal - even my children, friends,

co-workers, employers, etc.

No one is superior to me, and I am not superior to anyone else - 'as a bottom

line'.

[i do admit - sometimes I fail, but I always 'try' to live this value.]

I have never wanted to 'KICK', or suffer, when I die.

My Mothers heart stopped, and she was dead before she hit the floor.

She was un-aware of anything, she did not suffer, and knew nothing.

This is the manner in which ideally I wish to die also, if at all possible.

I also wish that each of us might be so blessed, even though I know that this

may not always be the case.

This may not be possible for me personally, though.

I have liver disease [HCV], and so far have been unable to treat due to my

heart.

I am possibly, so to speak, 'between a rock and a hard spot'.

I do try to take care of myself, and slow down the deterioration of my health

and body by various means.

But I am also afraid that this effort may not be enough.

Time will tell.

A long time ago, I came to the conclusion, that 'if' my quality of life degrades

to the point where I am no longer comfortable with living - then I wish to be

able to commit suicide, and end my life - 'instantly', if at all possible.

Some people may say that that is wrong, or that I must be mentally unbalanced,

but I disagree.

My older brother committed suicide, overdosing on narcotics, then when

completely stoned, he drank anti-freeze.

He had mental disorders, and to my knowledge he never saw a 'happy' day during

his 40 years of life.

I believe that he wanted to be healthy and happy, but that he was never able to

attain this.

I also believe that he did suffer some during this suicide process, because

death by anti-freeze is very painful, even if one is in a stupor.

I say this because when the police found his body, he was in the fetal position.

I personally thank God, that my brother had a way to end his life-long

suffering, although I do miss him.

I have talked with others, as I have said, about my wish to have the option to

commit suicide, if need be.

I have been made aware of the fact that it may cause trama to those who love me,

should I do so.

No doubt it probably will to some, but I fall back on the fact that my life is

mine alone, to do with as I see fit, providing I do as little damage to others,

as is possible.

I do not wish to cause upset or trama to others, but I am not in control of that

for the most part.

Each person must come to grips with their own reality, in relation to others.

I have thought that if I did commit suicide, I would wish to do so out in the

woods, without poisons.....alone.

This is so that my last view is of the glory of nature, totally quiet and at

peace within, and that the animals can eat me before my body is discovered.

I say this because I have eaten plants and animals all my life to sustain my

body.

I feel that it is only right and proper to give my body back to nature, rather

than be cremated, or filled with poisonous preservatives [plasticized], and

buried.

This is also how some American Indians treat their dead, and the rationale

behind their actions.

One last note -

- I do believe that a person [myself] should strive to live for as long as

possible, healthy and happily, because life really is a blessing, and a great

gift.

- I do not believe that a person should wantonly throw their life away, for any

reason, if there is the remotest possibility that one can live healthy and

happily, and reap the rewards of life.

- I always have, and I always shall do everything within my power to achieve a

full and long life, and I strongly encourage everyone else to try to do the

same.

But, like I say, I do believe that each persons life is their own, to do with as

they see fit, and that the ability to die with dignity is a 'God given right',

not to be imposed on by any other person, or by any society as a whole.

Ok, sorry for my long post.

I just wanted to share my viewpoint with everyone, and my reasons for believing

as I do.

I hope that I did not offend anyone.

I pray that each of us can heal, live forever healthy and happy, and that this

topic will never become an issue for any of us.

love

don in ks

[Guest guest]

Bobby

I admire your principals and love, in the face of all the lousy stuff in your

life. Really, I don't believe in suicide, just not for the same reasons. How

dare I think that I could circumvent my Higher Powers path for me. I've fought

for almost 25 yrs now, to understand God's will or Gloria's will. The

difference is simple!! If it all goes sideways, chances are, that was my will.

I do best when I leave the decisions up to that spiritual power.

Through 2 Hep C treatments and the liver cancer, I thought that I had learned

extremely well who was in charge. However, the month after my husband's

surprising death, my baby brother also died. That one drove me to my knees with

pain. I still can't even type these words without tears. No, I certainly do

not believe that my God of love, snatched my brother before his time. We just

don't understand yet, why it was the baby that went first.

________________________________

I lost my very very best friend in the whole world in August 2006. After she

died, and I was diagnosed with end stage liver disease, I had a choice to make.

I had to get sober in order to have any kind of chance to live at all. My liver

was close to failure, and I had no clotting factors left. Another really good

friend of mine told me about the church's teaching on the subject of suicide. I

am a devout Catholic. He was convinced that we would never be with our loved 's

w

ones for eternity of we committed suicide. This subject is not something I take

lightly at all. My dear wife has a terrible genetic disorder, and suffers

terribly. We talk about this a lot. I happen to believe my friend that suicide

will mean that I will not be able to see my loved ones who have passed ever

again, or be with my wife in the after life.

Just around the corner is an event so profound that none of us can even imagine

it. It is called the SINGULARITY.

http://singinst.org/singularityfaq?gclid=CNzzgOb7rKkCFcO8Kgods3ptPA#HowLikelyIsA\

n

Computers will become intelligent. I firmly believe that end stage liver

disease will seem as simple to solve as food safety is today. Before

microscopes, no one knew about simple bacteria which killed millions of people.

MILLIONS of people. Simply because they didnt know that food has a three hour

rule, once it reaches the temps between 40 and 140. It grows bacteria,

especially botulism with will absolutely KILL you. I believe I will not commit

suicide and I will wait for the day when the doctor can unleash a nano robot in

to my blood stream which will untangle liver fibrosis, and re attach all of my

bile ducts and blood vessles in there, and I will be better, and I will live for

a long time. This day is right around the ... corner. Bobby

________________________________

To: livercirrhosissupport

Sent: Fri, June 10, 2011 4:35:15 PM

Subject: Death with Dignity - [possibly upsetting]

Hi everybody

I dont post much here, because I am more interested in listening and learning,

than about speaking.

But every so often a topic comes up that I wish to comment on.

This is one, and I hope that this is acceptable.

I have discussed the - 'Death with Dignity' - topic with quite a few people over

the years.

Family, friends, religious, legal, and medical folks, etc.

It is a topic that strikes each one of us on a very personal level, and one that

most of us rarely have to dwell on [thank God].

It is also a very serious and contraversial topic, as we each have our own ideas

and beliefs about what is right or wrong, for us personally, or for other people

as a whole.

I would like to share my point of view with the group, [if that is ok], and

listen to everybodys feedback.

Some people may, or may not agree with what I am about to say, but I would like

to remind everyone that this is just 'my own personal opinion, about my own

personal life'.

- I am not trying to compel anyone else to agree with me, or to do anything that

mught be deemed 'wrong'.

- I do not intend to 'argue' about it, but I will discuss it [maybe].

BACKGROUND and RATIONALE -

I was raised up in the Christian religion, and was told that 'suicide' was

against God's wishes, and that people who committed 'suicide' would burn in Hell

for Eturnity.

I do NOT believe this to be a TRUTH, and I have always questioned

this rationality for 3 reasons -

1 - I believe that 'my' God loves me - unconditionally - so I doubt that he

would really throw me away if I committed suicide.

2 - I believe that suicide is just one more 'option', of many, in life.

3 - Logic tells me that some, or most people may actually be committing suicide

in various ways, by their choices in life.

IE: Soldiers and police place themselves in harms way. Driving your vehicle may

result in a deadly accident. Some forms of sport, or the foods that you eat may

eventually kill you. Choosing to climb a ladder, or flying in a plane may result

in a deadly fall. Taking drugs, crossing the street, tripping down the stairs,

going into a store that is being held up by armed bandits, choosing to live in a

natural disaster or war zone, and on and on.

- All are personal choices with mostly 'un-foreseeable' results, except for one.

Did we actually, in reality, commit suicide by our choices?

If this is the case, are we all, then really doomed by God for this?

Even the 'holiest' of people?

Or does this rule apply to only those who conciously OD, or blow their brains

out?

Long before I ever became aware of Dr Kevorkian's work in assisted suicide, I

had come to the awareness that each of us - OWNS - our own life.

In my opinion, each life is a personal gift - given to us by God at

conception - and no other person has the right, [under most conditions], to take

it from us, or enslave us in any way.

I have always admired Dr Kevorkian for stepping up to the plate, and defying the

laws of the land [and religion], and helping people choose 'how to die with

dignity'.

I believe that he was attempting to act correctly under the basis that each

persons life is their own, to do with as they see fit.

I have always lived my life believing this way also, and it has also affected

how I try to treat others.

- It has kept me from becomming a military or police person, because I do not

wish to be put in a position where I might be required to take another persons

life.

- Likewise, it has kept me from becomming a criminal, where I might be required

to defend myself, or kill another.

- It has kept me from ever sitting on jury duty, because I do not know if I

could make a correct judgement about an accused persons guilt, and lock them in

a cage.

- I have never voted because I am afraid that the person I vote for may act in

some manner that will result is the suffering, or demise of others.

- Even in my relationships with a spouce, I have never been the 'head of the

house', because who am I to lord it over someone else, in any manner?

[Especially someone who I say that I love.]

- I try to always treat everyone as my equal - even my children, friends,

co-workers, employers, etc.

No one is superior to me, and I am not superior to anyone else - 'as a bottom

line'.

[i do admit - sometimes I fail, but I always 'try' to live this value.]

I have never wanted to 'KICK', or suffer, when I die.

My Mothers heart stopped, and she was dead before she hit the floor.

She was un-aware of anything, she did not suffer, and knew nothing.

This is the manner in which ideally I wish to die also, if at all possible.

I also wish that each of us might be so blessed, even though I know that this

may not always be the case.

This may not be possible for me personally, though.

I have liver disease [HCV], and so far have been unable to treat due to my

heart.

I am possibly, so to speak, 'between a rock and a hard spot'.

I do try to take care of myself, and slow down the deterioration of my health

and body by various means.

But I am also afraid that this effort may not be enough.

Time will tell.

A long time ago, I came to the conclusion, that 'if' my quality of life degrades

to the point where I am no longer comfortable with living - then I wish to be

able to commit suicide, and end my life - 'instantly', if at all possible.

Some people may say that that is wrong, or that I must be mentally unbalanced,

but I disagree.

My older brother committed suicide, overdosing on narcotics, then when

completely stoned, he drank anti-freeze.

He had mental disorders, and to my knowledge he never saw a 'happy' day during

his 40 years of life.

I believe that he wanted to be healthy and happy, but that he was never able to

attain this.

I also believe that he did suffer some during this suicide process, because

death by anti-freeze is very painful, even if one is in a stupor.

I say this because when the police found his body, he was in the fetal position.

I personally thank God, that my brother had a way to end his life-long

suffering, although I do miss him.

I have talked with others, as I have said, about my wish to have the option to

commit suicide, if need be.

I have been made aware of the fact that it may cause trama to those who love me,

should I do so.

No doubt it probably will to some, but I fall back on the fact that my life is

mine alone, to do with as I see fit, providing I do as little damage to others,

as is possible.

I do not wish to cause upset or trama to others, but I am not in control of that

for the most part.

Each person must come to grips with their own reality, in relation to others.

I have thought that if I did commit suicide, I would wish to do so out in the

woods, without poisons.....alone.

This is so that my last view is of the glory of nature, totally quiet and at

peace within, and that the animals can eat me before my body is discovered.

I say this because I have eaten plants and animals all my life to sustain my

body.

I feel that it is only right and proper to give my body back to nature, rather

than be cremated, or filled with poisonous preservatives [plasticized], and

buried.

This is also how some American Indians treat their dead, and the rationale

behind their actions.

One last note -

- I do believe that a person [myself] should strive to live for as long as

possible, healthy and happily, because life really is a blessing, and a great

gift.

- I do not believe that a person should wantonly throw their life away, for any

reason, if there is the remotest possibility that one can live healthy and

happily, and reap the rewards of life.

- I always have, and I always shall do everything within my power to achieve a

full and long life, and I strongly encourage everyone else to try to do the

same.

But, like I say, I do believe that each persons life is their own, to do with as

they see fit, and that the ability to die with dignity is a 'God given right',

not to be imposed on by any other person, or by any society as a whole.

Ok, sorry for my long post.

I just wanted to share my viewpoint with everyone, and my reasons for believing

as I do.

I hope that I did not offend anyone.

I pray that each of us can heal, live forever healthy and happy, and that this

topic will never become an issue for any of us.

love

don in ks