Re: The Feds, Antitrust, ADA, and Salary Discussions

[Guest guest]

Not sure I caught this whole discussion but here is that part from the Feds

that is the foundation of salary discussion. There have been many legal

cases on the issue but the interpretation has remained the same. I am sure if

you have specifics questions about ADA, maybe contact Craig Bussey. He is our

legal counsel in the ADA Chicago office and can provide the expert insight

into the implications for ADA members.

In the meantime, here is that reference. Reading the piece seems like so

few words with so much far reaching effects. :-) Hope this helps.

_Federal Trade Commission Act_ (http://www.ftc.gov/ogc/ftcact.shtm) (15

U.S.C. §§ 41-58, as amended)

Under this Act, the Commission is empowered, among other things, to (a)

prevent unfair methods of competition, and unfair or deceptive acts or

practices

in or affecting commerce; ( seek monetary redress and other relief for

conduct injurious to consumers; © prescribe trade regulation rules defining

with specificity acts or practices that are unfair or deceptive, and

establishing requirements designed to prevent such acts or practices; (d)

conduct

investigations relating to the organization, business, practices, and

management of

entities engaged in commerce; and (e) make reports and legislative

recommendations to Congress.

Pat Raimondi MS, RD

The Milestone Group

In a message dated 12/25/2007 8:31:51 P.M. Central Standard Time,

neuroendolist@... writes:

Pam,

Would you be able to provide any kind of documentation from the FEDS (not

ADA) supporting your claim that they believe discussing salary is a violation

of anti-trust?

Anti-trust is when people actually AGREE to set a certain price. That is NOT

what salary discussions do.

If you're willing to provide the documentation I'm perfectly willing to

abide by it. But I've never, ever seen that anywhere. I've only seen ADA's

interpretation of that law and how dietitians accept that interpretation

without

the evidence they demand of each other, as you just demanded of Jan with regard

to LEAP, when it comes to a clinical situation.

That seems to me to be completely illogical and inconsistent.

Look forward to seeing your reference, thanks in advance,

Monika M. Woolsey, MS, RD

_http://www.afterthehttp://w_ (http://www.afterthediet.com/)

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

**************************************See AOL's top rated recipes

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[Guest guest]

Monika,

I doubt that " anti-trust " is applicable to privately owned listserves or

webpages. I agree w you, and disagree w ADA's definition or policy I just

follow it in the ADA sponsored sites. However, I believe it's inappropriate for

anyone that is a willing member of privately owned sites to chastise other

willing members for any opinions or statements that do not vioate that privately

owned site's and/or site owner's rules. So, whatever you allow to be said, so be

it for the rest of us, or we should just not belong and participate.

D

Digna Cassens, MHA, RD

http://groups.msn.com/RDForum

Start by doing what's necessary, then what's possible, and suddenly you are

doing the impossible. St. Francis Assis

The Feds, Antitrust, ADA, and Salary Discussions

Pam,

Would you be able to provide any kind of documentation from the FEDS (not ADA)

supporting your claim that they believe discussing salary is a violation of

anti-trust?

Anti-trust is when people actually AGREE to set a certain price. That is NOT

what salary discussions do.

If you're willing to provide the documentation I'm perfectly willing to abide

by it. But I've never, ever seen that anywhere. I've only seen ADA's

interpretation of that law and how dietitians accept that interpretation without

the evidence they demand of each other, as you just demanded of Jan with regard

to LEAP, when it comes to a clinical situation.

That seems to me to be completely illogical and inconsistent.

Look forward to seeing your reference, thanks in advance,

Monika M. Woolsey, MS, RD

http://www.afterthediet.com

[Guest guest]

Please, let's not get into this discussion. I am not a lawyer for ADA nor do I

wish to discuss this. I merely stated what has been ADA's position for quite

some time. If you have questions about it, feel free to contact ADA's legal

counsel.

Regards,

pam

Pamela Charney PhD, RD, LD, CNSD

Lecturer, Nutrition Sciences

Affiliate Associate Professor, Pharmacy

University of Washington

Seattle, WA

pcharney@...

On Tuesday, December 25, 2007, at 09:31PM, " Monika M. Woolsey, MS, RD "

wrote:

> Pam,

>

> Would you be able to provide any kind of documentation from the FEDS (not

ADA) supporting your claim that they believe discussing salary is a violation of

anti-trust?

>

> Anti-trust is when people actually AGREE to set a certain price. That is NOT

what salary discussions do.

>

> If you're willing to provide the documentation I'm perfectly willing to abide

by it. But I've never, ever seen that anywhere. I've only seen ADA's

interpretation of that law and how dietitians accept that interpretation without

the evidence they demand of each other, as you just demanded of Jan with regard

to LEAP, when it comes to a clinical situation.

>

> That seems to me to be completely illogical and inconsistent.

>

> Look forward to seeing your reference, thanks in advance,

>

> Monika M. Woolsey, MS, RD

> http://www.afterthediet.com

>

>

>

>

[Guest guest]

Actually it has nothing to do with public versus private. It has to do with

collusion and price setting. ADA is just following the law and making sure

as an organization we do not get sued. They are very careful on how they

conduct the salary survey to make sure there are no issues, as well.

Rates are not secret since anyone should be able to call your business and

obtain this information. And most people are very curious to know what their

peers are making. It is just human nature.

It is when however, if we start to collude with other dietitian-owned

businesses and agree on how much to charge then we are on shaky legal ground.

This

could be done on a listserve (members only or public), website, clubhouse or

back alley. I know it seems weird probably but if any of us did have these

discussions, there could be competitors in the area of nutrition that could

file suit. As example could be health food stores. And of course, then you

get into the licensure laws as well.

I am not sure of the history of the FTC Act but I am sure something started

this and it would be interesting to hear what profession drove this???

Pat Raimondi MS, RD

**************************************See AOL's top rated recipes

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[Guest guest]

Pam:

Why would a privately owned listserve have to consult w ADA's legal counsel for

anything? I believe that this discussion started with your initial comment,

but before that, nobody had a question about topic appropriateness. I'm asking

because I also own several websites, and it would never occur to be to consult

with ADA legal counsel, or any other legal counsel, about appropriate topics of

discussion on those sites.

Digna Cassens, MHA, RD

http://groups.msn.com/RDForum

Start by doing what's necessary, then what's possible, and suddenly you are

doing the impossible. St. Francis Assis

Re: The Feds, Antitrust, ADA, and Salary Discussions

Please, let's not get into this discussion. I am not a lawyer for ADA nor do I

wish to discuss this. I merely stated what has been ADA's position for quite

some time. If you have questions about it, feel free to contact ADA's legal

counsel.

Regards,

pam

Pamela Charney PhD, RD, LD, CNSD

Lecturer, Nutrition Sciences

Affiliate Associate Professor, Pharmacy

University of Washington

Seattle, WA

pcharney@...

On Tuesday, December 25, 2007, at 09:31PM, " Monika M. Woolsey, MS, RD "

wrote:

> Pam,

>

> Would you be able to provide any kind of documentation from the FEDS (not

ADA) supporting your claim that they believe discussing salary is a violation of

anti-trust?

>

> Anti-trust is when people actually AGREE to set a certain price. That is NOT

what salary discussions do.

>

> If you're willing to provide the documentation I'm perfectly willing to

abide by it. But I've never, ever seen that anywhere. I've only seen ADA's

interpretation of that law and how dietitians accept that interpretation without

the evidence they demand of each other, as you just demanded of Jan with regard

to LEAP, when it comes to a clinical situation.

>

> That seems to me to be completely illogical and inconsistent.

>

> Look forward to seeing your reference, thanks in advance,

>

> Monika M. Woolsey, MS, RD

> http://www.afterthediet.com

>

>

>

>

[Guest guest]

" Rates are not secret since anyone should be able to call your business and

obtain this information. And most people are very curious to know what their

peers are making. It is just human nature " and " ... however, if we start to

collude with other dietitian-owned businesses and agree on how much to charge

then we are on shaky legal ground. " ...

So reading the above, then why is there such a problem an RD asks what does

one make, charge for a service, etc? It's simply a question, no one is

colluding to set prices for the public!

" The universe is vast, though we are so small. There is really only one thing

we can ever truly control... whether we are good or evil " ~Oma, Stargate SG1

---------------------------------

Be a better friend, newshound, and know-it-all with Yahoo! Mobile. Try it now.

[Guest guest]

Why don't any of you seem to be concerned when insurance companies tell you how

much you can charge for your services? And you all get reimbursed at the same

rate. That to me is price fixing.

Or when ADA negotiates a rate with Medicare that is too low for me to accept

in order to pay my basic business expenses? That to me is price fixing.

It only seems to be price fixing when the organization who has undernegotiated

our financial worth might lose its negotiating power for us to realize that.

And the reason I don't accept insurance is precisely because I don't want

anyone colluding and underselling my worth.

Asking a colleague how she set her fees helps me to set a more competetive

rate in my own area. I can't charge what someone in California does, and I know

I can charge more than someone in Nebraska does.

The only way we could ever be accused of that is if we all agreed to charge

exactly the same price for what we do and if someone called all of our offices

to check our rates and discovered that all our consultation fees were the same.

That simply isn't how it is when these discussions arise.

And Pam, as Digna said, YOU are the one who started this. Instigating

something and then backing out of it when asked to support your cause is not

really a good use of this listserve. Stick with it till the end, that way we

can all learn something.

Monika

[Guest guest]

Why don't any of you seem to be concerned when insurance companies tell you how

much you can charge for your services? And you all get reimbursed at the same

rate. That to me is price fixing.

Or when ADA negotiates a rate with Medicare that is too low for me to accept

in order to pay my basic business expenses? That to me is price fixing.

It only seems to be price fixing when the organization who has undernegotiated

our financial worth might lose its negotiating power for us to realize that.

And the reason I don't accept insurance is precisely because I don't want

anyone colluding and underselling my worth.

Asking a colleague how she set her fees helps me to set a more competetive

rate in my own area. I can't charge what someone in California does, and I know

I can charge more than someone in Nebraska does.

The only way we could ever be accused of that is if we all agreed to charge

exactly the same price for what we do and if someone called all of our offices

to check our rates and discovered that all our consultation fees were the same.

That simply isn't how it is when these discussions arise.

And Pam, as Digna said, YOU are the one who started this. Instigating

something and then backing out of it when asked to support your cause is not

really a good use of this listserve. Stick with it till the end, that way we

can all learn something.

Monika

[Guest guest]

I didn't say that. What I was referring to was the original poster's

comment about not being allowed to post certain topics on an " ADA-

sponsored " list. Perhaps I misconstrued, and if I did, I apologize.

However, to my knowledge, the only type of message not allowed on an

ADA-sponsored list is a discussion of salary.

I never said that this list would need to consult with anyone before

posting or commenting. Now, can we leave this?

Pam Charney PhD, RD, CNSD

Lecturer, Nutrition Sciences

Dept of Epidemiology

School of Public Health and Community Medicine

305-B Raitt Hall

Affiliate Associate Professor

School of Pharmacy

University of Washington

Seattle, WA

> Pam:

> Why would a privately owned listserve have to consult w ADA's legal

> counsel for anything? I believe that this discussion started with

> your initial comment, but before that, nobody had a question about

> topic appropriateness. I'm asking because I also own several

> websites, and it would never occur to be to consult with ADA legal

> counsel, or any other legal counsel, about appropriate topics of

> discussion on those sites.

> Digna Cassens, MHA, RD

> http://groups.msn.com/RDForum

> Start by doing what's necessary, then what's possible, and suddenly

> you are doing the impossible. St. Francis Assis

>

> Re: The Feds, Antitrust, ADA, and Salary Discussions

>

> Please, let's not get into this discussion. I am not a lawyer for

> ADA nor do I wish to discuss this. I merely stated what has been

> ADA's position for quite some time. If you have questions about it,

> feel free to contact ADA's legal counsel.

> Regards,

> pam

>

> Pamela Charney PhD, RD, LD, CNSD

> Lecturer, Nutrition Sciences

> Affiliate Associate Professor, Pharmacy

> University of Washington

> Seattle, WA

> pcharney@...

>

> On Tuesday, December 25, 2007, at 09:31PM, " Monika M. Woolsey, MS,

> RD " wrote:

> > Pam,

> >

> > Would you be able to provide any kind of documentation from the

> FEDS (not ADA) supporting your claim that they believe discussing

> salary is a violation of anti-trust?

> >

> > Anti-trust is when people actually AGREE to set a certain price.

> That is NOT what salary discussions do.

> >

> > If you're willing to provide the documentation I'm perfectly

> willing to abide by it. But I've never, ever seen that anywhere.

> I've only seen ADA's interpretation of that law and how dietitians

> accept that interpretation without the evidence they demand of each

> other, as you just demanded of Jan with regard to LEAP, when it

> comes to a clinical situation.

> >

> > That seems to me to be completely illogical and inconsistent.

> >

> > Look forward to seeing your reference, thanks in advance,

> >

> > Monika M. Woolsey, MS, RD

> > http://www.afterthediet.com

> >

> >

> >

> >

[Guest guest]

It is an interesting comment you posted and as I said there must be some

history that set this precedent. I share everyone's view of the perplexing

situa

tion. I do remember this in my health care law class as being a big

deal...rate setting and collusion with health professionals. It sounds like it

should be in the Sopranos' and not referring to an RD listserve. :-) I

suppose

one just needs to do a risk assessment on the potential liability of posting

information.

I am at a loss though at the inconsistency of the monitoring of ADA

listserves (I know this one is independent of ADA). Pam is correct that this

has

been a position of ADA of not discussing this issue on listserves. DPG and

affiliate leaders have been cautioned about this with their listserves. (I

being

one to receive such cautions) And I know that when the ADA-L was still

alive, the ADA webmaster posted on this to the group. So if some were able to

post and others not, who knows why? But it sounds like, in any event useful

information was able to be shared.

Happy almost 2008!

Pat Raimondi MS, RD

In a message dated 12/27/2007 5:25:16 A.M. Central Standard Time,

thenancyrd@... writes:

" Rates are not secret since anyone should be able to call your business and

obtain this information. And most people are very curious to know what their

peers are making. It is just human nature " and " ... however, if we start to

collude with other dietitian-owned businesses and agree on how much to charge

then we are on shaky legal ground. " ...

So reading the above, then why is there such a problem an RD asks what does

one make, charge for a service, etc? It's simply a question, no one is

colluding to set prices for the public!

" The universe is vast, though we are so small. There is really only one

thing we can ever truly control... whether we are good or evil " ~Oma, Stargate

SG1

---------------------------------

Be a better friend, newshound, and know-it-all with Yahoo! Mobile. Try it

now.

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[Guest guest]

It is an interesting comment you posted and as I said there must be some

history that set this precedent. I share everyone's view of the perplexing

situa

tion. I do remember this in my health care law class as being a big

deal...rate setting and collusion with health professionals. It sounds like it

should be in the Sopranos' and not referring to an RD listserve. :-) I

suppose

one just needs to do a risk assessment on the potential liability of posting

information.

I am at a loss though at the inconsistency of the monitoring of ADA

listserves (I know this one is independent of ADA). Pam is correct that this

has

been a position of ADA of not discussing this issue on listserves. DPG and

affiliate leaders have been cautioned about this with their listserves. (I

being

one to receive such cautions) And I know that when the ADA-L was still

alive, the ADA webmaster posted on this to the group. So if some were able to

post and others not, who knows why? But it sounds like, in any event useful

information was able to be shared.

Happy almost 2008!

Pat Raimondi MS, RD

In a message dated 12/27/2007 5:25:16 A.M. Central Standard Time,

thenancyrd@... writes:

" Rates are not secret since anyone should be able to call your business and

obtain this information. And most people are very curious to know what their

peers are making. It is just human nature " and " ... however, if we start to

collude with other dietitian-owned businesses and agree on how much to charge

then we are on shaky legal ground. " ...

So reading the above, then why is there such a problem an RD asks what does

one make, charge for a service, etc? It's simply a question, no one is

colluding to set prices for the public!

" The universe is vast, though we are so small. There is really only one

thing we can ever truly control... whether we are good or evil " ~Oma, Stargate

SG1

---------------------------------

Be a better friend, newshound, and know-it-all with Yahoo! Mobile. Try it

now.

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[Guest guest]

The entire quote is gibble-di-boob to me. Practices and acts aren't

discussions.

Re: The Feds, Antitrust, ADA, and Salary Discussions

Not sure I caught this whole discussion but here is that part from the Feds

that is the foundation of salary discussion. There have been many legal

cases on the issue but the interpretation has remained the same. I am sure if

you have specifics questions about ADA, maybe contact Craig Bussey. He is our

legal counsel in the ADA Chicago office and can provide the expert insight

into the implications for ADA members.

In the meantime, here is that reference. Reading the piece seems like so

few words with so much far reaching effects. :-) Hope this helps.

_Federal Trade Commission Act_ (http://www.ftc.gov/ogc/ftcact.shtm) (15

U.S.C. §§ 41-58, as amended)

Under this Act, the Commission is empowered, among other things, to (a)

prevent unfair methods of competition, and unfair or deceptive acts or

practices

in or affecting commerce; ( seek monetary redress and other relief for

conduct injurious to consumers; © prescribe trade regulation rules defining

with specificity acts or practices that are unfair or deceptive, and

establishing requirements designed to prevent such acts or practices; (d)

conduct

investigations relating to the organization, business, practices, and

management of

entities engaged in commerce; and (e) make reports and legislative

recommendations to Congress.

Pat Raimondi MS, RD

The Milestone Group

In a message dated 12/25/2007 8:31:51 P.M. Central Standard Time,

neuroendolist@... writes:

Pam,

Would you be able to provide any kind of documentation from the FEDS (not

ADA) supporting your claim that they believe discussing salary is a violation

of anti-trust?

Anti-trust is when people actually AGREE to set a certain price. That is NOT

what salary discussions do.

If you're willing to provide the documentation I'm perfectly willing to

abide by it. But I've never, ever seen that anywhere. I've only seen ADA's

interpretation of that law and how dietitians accept that interpretation

without

the evidence they demand of each other, as you just demanded of Jan with

regard

to LEAP, when it comes to a clinical situation.

That seems to me to be completely illogical and inconsistent.

Look forward to seeing your reference, thanks in advance,

Monika M. Woolsey, MS, RD

_http://www.afterthehttp://w_ (http://www.afterthediet.com/)

[Guest guest]

I'm catching up on a few posts and I'm sure some would MUCH rather this

thread disappeared, but I'm going to chime in with a couple of comments.

I think I caught the jest of this thread by reading the old posts on the

Yahoo site.

First of all, does anyone remember WHY this group created in the first

place? Wasn't it first on some other venue, before Yahoo? (Can't recall

that detail.) Granted, I was off of it for awhile, but if I recall

correctly, it was for exactly this reason: So discussions such as rates

could be discussed.

Second (and last); when I work with clients, something I walk them

through is how to conduct competitive research. When anyone in any kind

of business starts planning that business, it is imperative that they

investigate who else is out there offering services similar to what they

will offer. This not only includes the services, but the charges, how

they charge, what exactly they charge for, etc. So, it doesn't matter

what I charge, unless I live in the same area. If the services are

provided long-distance, then the competition to be investigated will be

more global, so to speak, but this is still rather rare in dietetics,

today.

Anyway, just had to share those two comments!

Margie

Marjorie Geiser, RD, NSCA-CPT

Author of " Just Jump: The No-Fear Business Startup Guide for Health & Fitness

Professionals "

http://www.meg-enterprises.com

http://www.megfit.com

Digna Cassens wrote:

>

> The entire quote is gibble-di-boob to me. Practices and acts aren't

> discussions.

> Re: The Feds, Antitrust, ADA, and Salary Discussions

>

> Not sure I caught this whole discussion but here is that part from the

> Feds

> that is the foundation of salary discussion. There have been many legal

> cases on the issue but the interpretation has remained the same. I am

> sure if

> you have specifics questions about ADA, maybe contact Craig Bussey. He

> is our

> legal counsel in the ADA Chicago office and can provide the expert

> insight

> into the implications for ADA members.

>

> In the meantime, here is that reference. Reading the piece seems like so

> few words with so much far reaching effects. :-) Hope this helps.

>

> _Federal Trade Commission Act_ (http://www.ftc.gov/ogc/ftcact.shtm

> <http://www.ftc.gov/ogc/ftcact.shtm>) (15

> U.S.C. §§ 41-58, as amended)

> Under this Act, the Commission is empowered, among other things, to (a)

> prevent unfair methods of competition, and unfair or deceptive acts or

> practices

> in or affecting commerce; ( seek monetary redress and other relief for

> conduct injurious to consumers; © prescribe trade regulation rules

> defining

> with specificity acts or practices that are unfair or deceptive, and

> establishing requirements designed to prevent such acts or practices;

> (d) conduct

> investigations relating to the organization, business, practices, and

> management of

> entities engaged in commerce; and (e) make reports and legislative

> recommendations to Congress.

>

> Pat Raimondi MS, RD

> The Milestone Group

>

> In a message dated 12/25/2007 8:31:51 P.M. Central Standard Time,

> neuroendolist@...

> <mailto:neuroendolist%40afterthediet.com> writes:

>

> Pam,

>

> Would you be able to provide any kind of documentation from the FEDS (not

> ADA) supporting your claim that they believe discussing salary is a

> violation

> of anti-trust?

>

> Anti-trust is when people actually AGREE to set a certain price. That

> is NOT

> what salary discussions do.

>

> If you're willing to provide the documentation I'm perfectly willing to

> abide by it. But I've never, ever seen that anywhere. I've only seen

> ADA's

> interpretation of that law and how dietitians accept that

> interpretation without

> the evidence they demand of each other, as you just demanded of Jan

> with regard

> to LEAP, when it comes to a clinical situation.

>

> That seems to me to be completely illogical and inconsistent.

>

> Look forward to seeing your reference, thanks in advance,

>

> Monika M. Woolsey, MS, RD

> _http://www.afterthehttp://w_ <http://www.afterthehttp://w_>

> (http://www.afterthediet.com/ <http://www.afterthediet.com/>)

>

>