Re: Taking a tax loss on non-covered benefits

May 17, 2011

You can't do that. You take a loss of money against a gain of money. You can't deduct your own labor? It's illusive - how much is it worth? Who's to say? Bad debt is not deductable. It was never cash received. Expend money on a business purpose, lose money on a business purpose and it's deductable. Man, if our non-receipts were deductable, we'd all have zero taxable income.

WK

Taking a tax loss on non-covered benefits

Has anyone tried billing for non-covered benefits and taking a loss on taxes when they don't get paid?MikeE-mail message checked by Spyware Doctor (7.0.0.514)Database version: 6.17530http://www.pctools.com/spyware-doctor-antivirus/E-mail'>http://www.pctools.com/spyware-doctor-antivirus/E-mail message checked by Spyware Doctor (7.0.0.514)Database version: 6.17530http://www.pctools.com/spyware-doctor-antivirus/

May 17, 2011

I want to understand tax loss better. I was recently told that Group Health, our local non profit huge medical entity that is both insurance and provider for patients, does accept a small group of patients who have state Medicaid insurance as opposed to group health insurance. Group health loses money on these patients but takes it as a tax loss. Seems there's something in there to learn from and use to my advantage, but I don't understand this concept of tax loss.

You can't do that. You take a loss of money against a gain of money. You can't deduct your own labor? It's illusive - how much is it worth? Who's to say? Bad debt is not deductable. It was never cash received. Expend money on a business purpose, lose money on a business purpose and it's deductable. Man, if our non-receipts were deductable, we'd all have zero taxable income.

WK

Taking a tax loss on non-covered benefits

Has anyone tried billing for non-covered benefits and taking a loss on taxes when they don't get paid?MikeE-mail message checked by Spyware Doctor (7.0.0.514)Database version: 6.17530http://www.pctools.com/spyware-doctor-antivirus/E-mail'>http://www.pctools.com/spyware-doctor-antivirus/E-mail message checked by Spyware Doctor (7.0.0.514)Database version: 6.17530http://www.pctools.com/spyware-doctor-antivirus/

May 17, 2011

ï»¿

If they're spending more money than they're taking on this group, they can deduct the loss. Just like you.

WK

Taking a tax loss on non-covered benefits

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May 17, 2011

So if I figure out what it costs me to see a patient in my office (and would I include my salary and my staffs' salaries?) and if I then collect less on a visit than this cost (either from an insurance, our sliding scale or the folks we see pro bono) and if I then track this money difference I could add all up and take as tax deduction as tax loss?That could be big for us. And we dont need to be non- profit?

ï»¿

If they're spending more money than they're taking on this group, they can deduct the loss. Just like you.

WK

Taking a tax loss on non-covered benefits

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May 17, 2011

ï»¿

When you do your business taxes at the end of the year, or whenever you do them, you tally up your gross income and from that gross you deduct all business expenses. If you are an employee of your corporation then your salary is a business expense. If you're a sole proprietor, then the left over is your take home. As for how much you lose on a particular visit, that's an accounting study which you should study as a good business person. But, from a tax standpoint, it is just part of the annual profit/loss tally. Obviously, you can't operate at a loss for very long.

WK

Taking a tax loss on non-covered benefits

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May 17, 2011

There are two methods of accoutning: Cash and accrual. My understanding is most of us work on a cash basis. Our income is what we have already received. Our costs are what we have spent and we have depreciations.

Accrual means we pay taxes on money we have earned, even if we haven't received it yet, so on accounts receivable. That also allows us to write off bad debt. But it's not based on what our cost of doing business is based on what we receive. It's much harder to do accrual accounting and I don't think we get depreciation expenses with this method but...I am not acountant and have limited knowledge and my reference is wikipedia.

Kathy Saradarian, MD

Taking a tax loss on non-covered benefits

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May 17, 2011

ï»¿

Writing off business deductions has nothing to do with the method of accounting. All the method of accounting means is when you account of your gains and or your losses. There's no such thing as a business deduction that works under one method but not under another method. A business deduction is a deduction based upon it's nature and is applicable to any entity which incurs it. You can't write off bad debt. It's not money you have ever received.

WK

Taking a tax loss on non-covered benefits

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May 17, 2011

Sorry to beat this- but then what's the tax loss Group Health is taking that seemed to make sense to you- where you stated"-If they're spending more money than they're taking on this group, they can deduct the loss. Just like you."

ï»¿

When you do your business taxes at the end of the year, or whenever you do them, you tally up your gross income and from that gross you deduct all business expenses. If you are an employee of your corporation then your salary is a business expense. If you're a sole proprietor, then the left over is your take home. As for how much you lose on a particular visit, that's an accounting study which you should study as a good business person. But, from a tax standpoint, it is just part of the annual profit/loss tally. Obviously, you can't operate at a loss for very long.

WK

Taking a tax loss on non-covered benefits

Has anyone tried billing for non-covered benefits and taking a loss on taxes when they don't get paid?MikeE-mail message checked by Spyware Doctor (7.0.0.514)Database version: 6.17530http://www.pctools.com/spyware-doctor-antivirus/E-mail'>http://www.pctools.com/spyware-doctor-antivirus/E-mail message checked by Spyware Doctor (7.0.0.514)Database version: 6.17530http://www.pctools.com/spyware-doctor-antivirus/

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May 17, 2011

We bill for non-covered benefits all the time. But we don't provide them if they aren't Pre-paid.

Has anyone tried billing for non-covered benefits and taking a loss on taxes when they don't get paid?

Mike

May 17, 2011

ï»¿

Don't know what they're doing. When you have a tax loss, which is a negative income, you generally carry it forward. In general, you can't apply a tax loss by one entity against a tax gain in another entity. So I don't know what they're doing. But I'm guessing they have a loss in one section of their business as opposed to other sections of business in their entity. All I'm meaning in loss is just that - loss. They spend more money than they take in. That's a loss.

Taking a tax loss on non-covered benefits

Has anyone tried billing for non-covered benefits and taking a loss on taxes when they don't get paid?MikeE-mail message checked by Spyware Doctor (7.0.0.514)Database version: 6.17530http://www.pctools.com/spyware-doctor-antivirus/E-mail'>http://www.pctools.com/spyware-doctor-antivirus/E-mail message checked by Spyware Doctor (7.0.0.514)Database version: 6.17530http://www.pctools.com/spyware-doctor-antivirus/

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May 17, 2011

Thanks for sharing your insight, Walter!

Eads, MD

Pinnacle Family Medicine

Colorado Springs, CO

www.PinnacleFamilyMedicine.com

From:

[mailto: ] On Behalf Of Walter V.

Kowtoniuk

Sent: Tuesday, May 17, 2011 8:44 AM

To:

Subject: Re: Taking a tax loss on non-covered

benefits

ï»¿

Don't know what they're doing. When you

have a tax loss, which is a negative income, you generally

carry it forward. In general, you can't apply a tax loss by

one entity against a tax gain in another entity. So I don't know

what they're doing. But I'm guessing they have a loss in one

section of their business as opposed to other sections of business in their

entity. All I'm meaning in loss is just that -

loss. They spend more money than they take in. That's a

loss.

Taking a tax loss on non-covered benefits

Has anyone tried billing for non-covered

benefits and taking a loss on taxes when they don't get paid?

Mike

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May 17, 2011

Yes, salaries are deductible. They are cash you have paid out. All expenses (rent, phone, employer taxes, etc) are also deductible. Bur you have to be able to justify the MD salary (too high or too low) to the IRS. Our total receipts in our office are low, so steve's salary is low, too. For example, you have $250,000 in gross receipts for 2010. Your tot expenses were $300,000, therefore your business had a loss of $50,000. You, as the sole sharholder will get to write part of that off on your personal taxes. But beware, the duduction is not dollar-for-dollar for all expenses. You should really consult with a CPA. This is only my understanding and experience and should not be considered as tax advice.

So if I figure out what it costs me to see a patient in my office (and would I include my salary and my staffs' salaries?) and if I then collect less on a visit than this cost (either from an insurance, our sliding scale or the folks we see pro bono) and if I then track this money difference I could add all up and take as tax deduction as tax loss?That could be big for us. And we dont need to be non- profit?

ï»¿

If they're spending more money than they're taking on this group, they can deduct the loss. Just like you.

WK

Taking a tax loss on non-covered benefits

Has anyone tried billing for non-covered benefits and taking a loss on taxes when they don't get paid?MikeE-mail message checked by Spyware Doctor (7.0.0.514)Database version: 6.17530http://www.pctools.com/spyware-doctor-antivirus/E-mail'>http://www.pctools.com/spyware-doctor-antivirus/E-mail message checked by Spyware Doctor (7.0.0.514)Database version: 6.17530http://www.pctools.com/spyware-doctor-antivirus/

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May 17, 2011

Deductions are different than depreciations (though I am not sure on that but I thought that is what my account said as one of the downsides to accrual accounting other than it's diffiulty). And if you use accrual method of accouting, you can write-off bad debt.

Kathy Sardarian

Taking a tax loss on non-covered benefits

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May 17, 2011

ï»¿

You can not write off that loss against personal income unless you are an S corp. If you are a C corp you can't write that loss off against your personal income. You can only carry it forward to next year or until you have a gain.

If you are a sole proprietor, i.e., schedule C filer, you don't have a salary per se. You have money left over and when you take that home you pay self employment taxes which the schedule C calculates for you. As you know, self employment taxes are both sides of social security taxes, employer plus employee.

Taking a tax loss on non-covered benefits

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May 17, 2011

ï»¿

You can't write off bad debt. It's money you never got so you don't owe taxes on it.

Depreciation is a deduction. It happens to be deductions of an item purchased and deducted over a number of years in parts. Like a refrigerator. I think frigs are 5 years. $500 frig, 5 yr schedule, $100 deduction per year for 5 years. accrual v. cash doesn't change the numbers. Just, maybe, when you do it.

Taking a tax loss on non-covered benefits

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May 17, 2011

If you do your accounting on a accrual basis, your accounts receivable are taxable. Therefore if you never receive the payment and write-off the money owed, you can deduct the bad debt. I don't know of any doctor's office that accounts through this method which is why we can't deduct the bad debt.

From the IRS website:

Topic 453 - Bad Debt Deduction

If someone owes you money that you cannot collect, you may have a bad debt. For a discussion of what constitutes a valid debt, refer to Publication 550, Investment Income and Expenses, and Publication 535, Business Expense. To deduct a bad debt, you must have previously included the amount in your income or loaned out your cash. If you are a cash basis taxpayer, you may not take a bad debt deduction for money you expected to receive but did not (for example, for money owed to you for services performed, or rent) because that amount was never included in your income. For a bad debt, you must show that there was an intention at the time of the transaction to make a loan and not a gift. If you lend money to a relative or friend with the understanding that it may not be repaid, it is considered a gift and not a loan.

There are two kinds of bad debts â€“ business and nonbusiness.

Generally, a business bad debt is one that comes from operating your trade or business.

The following are examples of business bad debts (if previously included in income):

Loans to clients and suppliers Credit sales to customers, or Business loan guarantees

A business deducts its bad debts from gross income when figuring its taxable income. Business bad debts may be deducted in part or in full. You can claim a business bad debt using either the specific charge-off method or the nonaccrual-experience method.

All other bad debts are nonbusiness. Nonbusiness bad debts must be totally worthless to be deductible. You cannot deduct a partially worthless nonbusiness bad debt.

A debt becomes worthless when the surrounding facts and circumstances indicate there is no reasonable expectation of payment. To show that a debt is worthless, you must establish that you have taken reasonable steps to collect the debt. It is not necessary to go to court if you can show that a judgment from the court would be uncollectible. You may take the deduction only in the year the debt becomes worthless. You do not have to wait until a debt is due to determine whether it is worthless.

A nonbusiness bad debt is reported as a shortâ€“term capital loss in Part 1 on Form 1040, Schedule D (PDF). It is subject to the capital loss limitations. A nonbusiness bad debt deduction requires a separate detailed statement attached to your return.

For more information on nonbusiness bad debts, refer to Publication 550, Investment Income and Expenses. For more information on business bad debts, refer to Publication 535, Business Expenses.

Taking a tax loss on non-covered benefits

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May 17, 2011

ï»¿

Yes this is correct. To the extent they match up. And, you are likely not writing off all bad debt, just against the receivables you accounted for and never received.

Yep, like I said:

"To deduct a bad debt, you must have previously included the amount in your income or loaned out your cash. If you are a cash basis taxpayer, you may not take a bad debt deduction for money you expected to receive but did not (for example, for money owed to you for services performed, or rent) because that amount was never included in your income. For a bad debt, you must show that there was an intention at the time of the transaction to make a loan and not a gift. "

Taking a tax loss on non-covered benefits

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May 17, 2011

ï»¿

But even in an accrual accounting system, the "bad debt" is not a business deduction per se. It is merely an accounting entry offset against income accounted for but never received.

Taking a tax loss on non-covered benefits

Has anyone tried billing for non-covered benefits and taking a loss on taxes when they don't get paid?MikeE-mail message checked by Spyware Doctor (7.0.0.514)Database version: 6.17530http://www.pctools.com/spyware-doctor-antivirus/E-mail'>http://www.pctools.com/spyware-doctor-antivirus/E-mail message checked by Spyware Doctor (7.0.0.514)Database version: 6.17530http://www.pctools.com/spyware-doctor-antivirus/

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May 17, 2011

Why would you go through the hassle of acrual accounting? You come out mostly in the same place. From: [ ] On Behalf Of Walter V. Kowtoniuk [walterv@...]Sent: Tuesday, May 17, 2011 10:37 AMTo: Subject: Re: Taking a tax loss on non-covered benefits ï»¿ But even in an accrual accounting system, the " bad debt " is not a business deduction per se. It is merely an accounting entry offset against income accounted for but never received. Taking a tax loss on non-covered benefits Has anyone tried billing for non-covered benefits and taking a loss on taxes when they don't get paid?MikeE-mail message checked by Spyware Doctor (7.0.0.514)Database version: 6.17530http://www.pctools.com/spyware-doctor-antivirus/E-mail'>http://www.pctools.com/spyware-doctor-antivirus/E-mail message checked by Spyware Doctor (7.0.0.514)Database version: 6.17530http://www.pctools.com/spyware-doctor-antivirus/E-mail'>http://www.pctools.com/spyware-doctor-antivirus/E-mail message checked by Spyware Doctor (7.0.0.514)Database version: 6.17530http://www.pctools.com/spyware-doctor-antivirus/E-mail'>http://www.pctools.com/spyware-doctor-antivirus/E-mail message checked by Spyware Doctor (7.0.0.514)Database version: 6..17530http://www.pctools.com/spyware-doctor-antivirus/E-mail'>http://www.pctools.com/spyware-doctor-antivirus/E-mail message checked by Spyware Doctor (7.0.0.514)Database version: 6.17530http://www.pctools.com/spyware-doctor-antivirus/E-mail'>http://www.pctools.com/spyware-doctor-antivirus/E-mail message checked by Spyware Doctor (7.0.0....514)Database version: 6.17530http://www.pctools.com/spyware-doctor-antivirus/E-mail'>http://www.pctools.com/spyware-doctor-antivirus/E-mail message checked by Spyware Doctor (7.0.0.514)Database version: 6.17530http://www.pctools.com/spyware-doctor-antivirus/E-mail'>http://www.pctools.com/spyware-doctor-antivirus/E-mail message checked by Spyware Doctor (7.0.0...514)Database version: 6.17530http://www.pctools.com/spyware-doctor-antivirus/E-mail'>http://www.pctools.com/spyware-doctor-antivirus/E-mail message checked by Spyware Doctor (7.0.0.514)Database version: 6.17530http://www.pctools.com/spyware-doctor-antivirus/E-mail'>http://www.pctools.com/spyware-doctor-antivirus/E-mail message checked by Spyware Doctor (7.0.0..514)Database version: 6.17530http://www.pctools.com/spyware-doctor-antivirus/E-mail'>http://www.pctools.com/spyware-doctor-antivirus/E-mail message checked by Spyware Doctor (7.0.0.514)Database version: 6.17530http://www.pctools.com/spyware-doctor-antivirus/E-mail'>http://www.pctools.com/spyware-doctor-antivirus/E-mail message checked by Spyware Doctor (7.0.0.514)Database version: 6.17530http://www.pctools.com/spyware-doctor-antivirus/

May 18, 2011

ï»¿

Accrual accounting allows for greater flexibility in shifting income and expenses over reporting periods. I'm sure all big companies use accrual systems. For a small business it certainly would be way more trouble than it's worth. You know the joke about accountants? Three persons were interviewing for an accounting job.

The first interviewee was asked what is 1+1. He got mad, got insulted, and stomped off.

The second was asked the same question. He also was dumbfounded, and left.

The third was asked, what is 1+1. He answered, "what do you want it to equal?" He was hired.

Accrual accounting.

WK

Taking a tax loss on non-covered benefits

Has anyone tried billing for non-covered benefits and taking a loss on taxes when they don't get paid?MikeE-mail message checked by Spyware Doctor (7.0.0.514)Database version: 6.17530http://www.pctools.com/spyware-doctor-antivirus/E-mail'>http://www.pctools.com/spyware-doctor-antivirus/E-mail message checked by Spyware Doctor (7.0.0.514)Database version: 6.17530http://www.pctools.com/spyware-doctor-antivirus/

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May 18, 2011

Walter is correct. You cannot deduct bad debt, because the no income was realized in cash accounting. In accrual accounting, the income is realized at the time of billing (your made-up usual and customary rate). In accrual accounting, you would then deduct the difference of your billed amount minus what your were actually paid (insurance, HRA, patient). So, if you bill $120 for 99213 and received $80 from insurance and the patient stiffs you for $20 then you would deduct $40 for that bill. Your are taxed on $80. In cash accounting, you would not be taxed until you received $80 from the insurance. Cash accounting is simpler. The accrual method does not reduce taxes, and seems to me to create an unnecessary accounting headache. It just does not make sense for docs because the billed charge is

arbitrary, so using the accrual method wound not give a clearer picture of your business activities unless you billed the allowable for each carrier. I hope I got this correct. Maybe we should lobby to have this bad debt as a write off, or even better, maybe we should lobby to make charitable care deductible for professionals.I know I would rather my money (lost income giving charitable care) go towards those that cannot afford care than the government?

g

To: Sent: Tue, May 17, 2011 4:41:56 PMSubject: Re: Taking a tax loss on non-covered benefits

ï»¿ Accrual accounting allows for greater flexibility in shifting income and expenses over reporting periods. I'm sure all big companies use accrual systems. For a small business it certainly would be way more trouble than it's worth. You know the joke about accountants? Three persons were interviewing for an accounting job.

The first interviewee was asked what is 1+1. He got mad, got insulted, and stomped off.

The second was asked the same question. He also was dumbfounded, and left.

The third was asked, what is 1+1. He answered, "what do you want it to equal?" He was hired.

Accrual accounting.

WK

Taking a tax loss on non-covered benefits

Has anyone tried billing for non-covered benefits and taking a loss on taxes when they don't get paid?MikeE-mail message checked by Spyware Doctor (7.0.0.514)Database version: 6.17530http://www.pctools.com/spyware-doctor-antivirus/E-mail'>http://www.pctools.com/spyware-doctor-antivirus/E-mail message checked by Spyware Doctor (7.0.0.514)Database version: 6.17530http://www.pctools.com/spyware-doctor-antivirus/

E-mail message checked by Spyware Doctor (7.0.0.514)Database version: 6.17530http://www.pctools.com/spyware-doctor-antivirus/E-mail'>http://www.pctools.com/spyware-doctor-antivirus/E-mail message checked by Spyware Doctor (7.0.0.514)Database version: 6..17530http://www.pctools.com/spyware-doctor-antivirus/

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May 18, 2011

Yep, both correct. AS I said why would you want to do this is a small business?

There is the increased cost of accounting to consider also.

________________________________________

From:

[ ] On Behalf Of g p [georgeinv@...]

Sent: Tuesday, May 17, 2011 5:06 PM

To:

Subject: Re: Taking a tax loss on non-covered benefits

Walter is correct. You cannot deduct bad debt, because the no income was

realized in cash accounting. In accrual accounting, the income is realized at

the time of billing (your made-up usual and customary rate). In accrual

accounting, you would then deduct the difference of your billed amount minus

what your were actually paid (insurance, HRA, patient). So, if you bill $120 for

99213 and received $80 from insurance and the patient stiffs you for $20 then

you would deduct $40 for that bill. Your are taxed on $80. In cash accounting,

you would not be taxed until you received $80 from the insurance. Cash

accounting is simpler. The accrual method does not reduce taxes, and seems to me

to create an unnecessary accounting headache. It just does not make sense for

docs because the billed charge is arbitrary, so using the accrual method wound

not give a clearer picture of your business activities unless you billed the

allowable for each carrier. I hope I got this correct. Maybe we should lobby to

have this bad debt as a write off, or even better, maybe we should lobby to make

charitable care deductible for professionals.I know I would rather my money

(lost income giving charitable care) go towards those that cannot afford care

than the government?

g

________________________________

To:

Sent: Tue, May 17, 2011 4:41:56 PM

Subject: Re: Taking a tax loss on non-covered benefits

ï»¿

Accrual accounting allows for greater flexibility in shifting income and

expenses over reporting periods. I'm sure all big companies use accrual

systems. For a small business it certainly would be way more trouble than it's

worth. You know the joke about accountants?

Three persons were interviewing for an accounting job.

The first interviewee was asked what is 1+1. He got mad, got insulted, and

stomped off.

The second was asked the same question. He also was dumbfounded, and left.

The third was asked, what is 1+1. He answered, " what do you want it to

equal? " He was hired.

Accrual accounting.

WK

Taking a tax loss on non-covered benefits

Has anyone tried billing for non-covered benefits and taking a loss on taxes

when they don't get paid?

Mike

E-mail message checked by Spyware Doctor (7.0.0.514)

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May 18, 2011

Thanks everyone for the help. Accounting is mysterious. I wish I understood it

better. It sounds like the 'loss' involved in a phone call, for example, does

not apply to taxes. I guess it's just income I didn't receive.

I think I will start billing insurance/patients for phone calls. Even if I

don't get anything, it sends a message that I value that time (even if no one

else does).

Mike

>

> Has anyone tried billing for non-covered benefits and taking a loss on taxes

when they don't get paid?

>

> Mike

>

May 18, 2011

You can disclose to your patients that you charge $x for phone calls. There are CPT codes. We tell our patients that they are non-covered benefits, typically, and they pay in advance. But this ONLY applies to phone calls that are occurring in lieu of an office visit. We do bill insurance but have never have one paid for by ins.

Thanks everyone for the help. Accounting is mysterious. I wish I understood it better. It sounds like the 'loss' involved in a phone call, for example, does not apply to taxes. I guess it's just income I didn't receive.

I think I will start billing insurance/patients for phone calls. Even if I don't get anything, it sends a message that I value that time (even if no one else does).

Mike

>

> Has anyone tried billing for non-covered benefits and taking a loss on taxes when they don't get paid?

>

> Mike

>

May 18, 2011

ï»¿

How often do you do that and how much do you charge?

WK

Re: Re: Taking a tax loss on non-covered benefits

You can disclose to your patients that you charge $x for phone calls. There are CPT codes. We tell our patients that they are non-covered benefits, typically, and they pay in advance. But this ONLY applies to phone calls that are occurring in lieu of an office visit. We do bill insurance but have never have one paid for by ins.

Thanks everyone for the help. Accounting is mysterious. I wish I understood it better. It sounds like the 'loss' involved in a phone call, for example, does not apply to taxes. I guess it's just income I didn't receive. I think I will start billing insurance/patients for phone calls. Even if I don't get anything, it sends a message that I value that time (even if no one else does).Mike>> Has anyone tried billing for non-covered benefits and taking a loss on taxes when they don't get paid?> > Mike>

E-mail message checked by Spyware Doctor (7.0.0.514)Database version: 6.17540http://www.pctools.com/spyware-doctor-antivirus/E-mail'>http://www.pctools.com/spyware-doctor-antivirus/E-mail message checked by Spyware Doctor (7.0.0.514)Database version: 6.17540http://www.pctools.com/spyware-doctor-antivirus/

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