Guest guest Posted December 10, 2000 Report Share Posted December 10, 2000 > But in my opinion, it should be a very small part of being a good > well rounded " Peace Officer " . > " living in the old days " Weintraut > ******************************************************************** The " peace " has been taken out of the new officers. Ask one of the new people (7 years or less) if they stopped someone for 3rd or 4th offense OWI, what would they do first. Make the arrest and get the bum off the road, or see if they could possible get the person some alcohol counseling help somewhere. Ask them, " where does your compassion as a human being start for your fellow man? " You are very liable to get a " deer in the headlights " stare back. Sad, really sad. Iowa State Patrol Communications Cedar Rapids Werling, Anamosa, IA AOL IM Ridgeroader http://www.jonescountytourism.com http://www.ia.net/~anachamb/pumpkin.html http://www.earthsat.com/Iowa/Winter.html (roads) http://www.thehungersite.com (feed someone today) mailto:scott@... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted December 11, 2000 Report Share Posted December 11, 2000 ref/cops helping 3rd or 4th offense DWIs get counseling..... Peace Officers are certified by their states to maintain the law. We could on and on reference the Letter of the Law and the Color of the law. Those who have been involved with law enforcement understands what that means. Some interpret that to mean that there are certain circumstances that you cut someone a " break " . In some states, a fifth DWI is a Felony. An officer ignoring that can be taken to task, not only by his employer, but by the Code of most states... First off....being a human being is done everyday on the road. Not all actions that are done on the road are relayed, via radio, to the dispatch. One cannot sit in an isolated room and know exactly what happened on a call. Sure, the officer can radio, or even call in and tell you what transpired...but the nuances of the call...only the officer and the person involved can describe. Even that can be construed in many various ways. As far as counseling? Officers do that all the time. You as a dispatcher see it all the time with your repeat callers who cannot (or will not) handle their own kids, or lives. Call the cops for every little problem that they cannot handle. It is not the officers job to stop a suspected DWI, ascertain if his alcohol problem stems from he/she being from a lousy household, beaten as kid...etc..yadda yadda. At the particular point in incident, which you state in your example..the DWI, the officers job is to evaluate the situation at hand and go from there. IF the officer lets that drunk go...providing he/she is drunk...and he/she decides to wipe out a family head on...what happens then? The cop is sued, the county or municipality is sued...and on and on.... To think that counseling from a cop on a car stop is going to make a difference is like...well...nevermind. Sometimes it makes a difference, sometimes it doesn't. The person who has an obvious problem with alcohol, to use your example again...has for sure heard the same from the wife, husband, kids, employer. It is not the cops job to offer alternatives at that particular place in time. It would up to the courts to decide where this subject would be down the road. Sorry this is long and preachy...but I feel that once again...the job of counselor is not the cops. The question as to whose place it is to do will be argued for years to come. Cin in good ole Ohio happy day, be safe Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted December 11, 2000 Report Share Posted December 11, 2000 You had a good response also... While cops may be people first, cops second....It is nice in dialogue...but take it to court on some cases. The reason that cops strap on the gun and wear the badge is because they have to do the job that a lot don't want to do. A lot of the calls for service is to do that...serve and protect. While a lot may argue that there are a lot of souls to save out there...I still believe that cops do a multitude of jobs...counselor (done on a lot of calls...referals to human services..etc...) And most cops do it well. While for some reason you seem to degrade the newer officers...be advised that todays officers are better trained and have more to deal with than some officers of old. While we wish that the Andy of Mayberry cop still exists (in some places they do) in a lot of communities, Law enforcement agencies are shorthanded, understaffed on the road and in dispatch. With todays law-suit happy world, the cop of today does the job as best he/she can, with the time and the departmental and local restraints that they have to deal with. Most officers that go in today understand the low pay and low moral that goes with the job. See, as a dispatcher, you are slamming the cops of your own dept. If cops today cannot even get support from their own agency, where are they to turn? Also understand, as I know...that after a cop leaves after a call for service...some people are not happy. Maybe they do not understand how the law works. Maybe they need someone to vent to....True, maybe the cop they dealt with was rude. I cannot answer that response. It is one thing to deal with people on the phone. It is quite another thing to have to deal with a not drunk enough person to arrest (there are laws reference when and can't you can arrest someone) and have to explain to these people how the system works. The system is in place. Most officers on the road do a damn fine job with it. The few that don't manage to tangle themselves up, or wash out down the road. Just like the dispatch conversations we have had here with dispatchers. Yes, cops are people too. Until you understand that yes, there are some agencies that hinder the actions of cops, OR, there are some good (and young) cops out there...and until you understand that cops do try to help...there isnt much more I can add to this. Just like dispatchers...there are good cops, super cops and border line ones. The courts are clogged up because of the system, the way people are raised and not raised. It is not the cop that clogs the system. It is the actions of all. And until someone finds a better way..that is the way it is. I cannot explain it any different. If you know of a better way...please let us all know!!! It is hard for all involved.... Cin in good ole Ohio happy day, be safe Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted December 11, 2000 Report Share Posted December 11, 2000 > Peace Officers are certified by their states to maintain the law. We could on > and on reference the Letter of the Law and the Color of the law. Those who > have been involved with law enforcement understands what that means. Some > interpret that to mean that there are certain circumstances that you cut > someone a " break " . In some states, a fifth DWI is a Felony. An officer > ignoring that can be taken to task, not only by his employer, but by the Code > of most states... Here in Iowa anything beyond DWI 2nd can be filed by an officer, but it must be filed in court by the county attorney. Many won't do that because they are in an elected position. That is another arguement. As to being taken to task for not filing DWI 5th or whatever, much of what I directly deal with is tickets first, people 2nd. Just the exact opposite of how it should be. Not everyone on the road is a criminal, much to the surprise of the newer officer. Where does the officer's responsibility to the public begin & end. The answer of law enforcement doesn't wash. They often forget they are people first, law enforcement second. > First off....being a human being is done everyday on the road. Not all > actions that are done on the road are relayed, via radio, to the dispatch. > One cannot sit in an isolated room and know exactly what happened on a call. > Sure, the officer can radio, or even call in and tell you what > transpired...but the nuances of the call...only the officer and the person > involved can describe. Even that can be construed in many various ways. Agreed. But far too many times we are the victim of the " fallout " of the call. Complaints on rude officers, officers not responding to calls because.....(too busy with dinner, too cold, too hot, too whatever). There is a saying in Iowa by some of the PDs and SOs, " A good trooper doesn't get cold, tired, hungry, or wet. " More truth there than is realized by the public. > As far as counseling? Officers do that all the time. You as a dispatcher see > it all the time with your repeat callers who cannot (or will not) handle > their own kids, or lives. Call the cops for every little problem that they > cannot handle. It is not the officers job to stop a suspected DWI, ascertain > if his alcohol problem stems from he/she being from a lousy household, beaten > as kid...etc..yadda yadda. At the particular point in incident, which you > state in your example..the DWI, the officers job is to evaluate the situation > at hand and go from there. IF the officer lets that drunk go...providing > he/she is drunk...and he/she decides to wipe out a family head on...what > happens then? The cop is sued, the county or municipality is sued...and on > and on.... At no point did I say the officer let anyone go. Conversely I said that the officer should take it upon him/her self to see that this person is put into an alcohol rehab system. As to the lousy household yada yada yad, as you put it, that may be where the officer can see that this person is contacted by an alcohol/drug counselor. It is obvious that the person must comply with these restrictions, but if they don't off to the crossbar hotel we go. > To think that counseling from a cop on a car stop is going to make a > difference is like...well...nevermind. Sometimes it makes a difference, > sometimes it doesn't. The person who has an obvious problem with alcohol, to > use your example again...has for sure heard the same from the wife, husband, > kids, employer. It is not the cops job to offer alternatives at that > particular place in time. It would up to the courts to decide where this > subject would be down the road. You contradict yourself very well. If the officer can help 1 person a day that is 30 (give or take) a month. If that 1 person helps 1 every other day that is 15 more a month. You can see where I am going; in that it would be the best of all worlds if it worked this way. And to use your example, if it winds up in the courts, that is the reason the court system is so dangerously overloaded. If the cops deflect the problem to start with and do it correctly, the cases will not be clogging up the courts. They can focus on more pressing matters; like dangling chads, pregnant chads etc. But I digress. > Sorry this is long and preachy...but I feel that once again...the job of > counselor is not the cops. The question as to whose place it is to do will be > argued for years to come. Good letter, Cin. I hope I don't come off as negative, but I feel the cops are like First Responders, do what they can with what they have available, a bandaid solution yes, but it will help. To think that cops are not counselors demeans the officer, the badge and uniform. > > Cin in good ole Ohio > happy day, be safe > ******************************************************************** Iowa State Patrol Communications Cedar Rapids Werling, Anamosa, IA AOL IM Ridgeroader http://www.jonescountytourism.com http://www.ia.net/~anachamb/pumpkin.html http://www.earthsat.com/Iowa/Winter.html (roads) http://www.thehungersite.com (feed someone today) mailto:scott@... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted December 11, 2000 Report Share Posted December 11, 2000 > While a lot may argue that there are a lot of souls to save out there...I > still believe that cops do a multitude of jobs...counselor (done on a lot of > calls...referals to human services..etc...) And most cops do it well. While > for some reason you seem to degrade the newer officers...be advised that > todays officers are better trained and have more to deal with than some > officers of old. While we wish that the Andy of Mayberry cop still exists (in > some places they do) in a lot of communities, Law enforcement agencies are > shorthanded, understaffed on the road and in dispatch. My main reason to degrade newer officers is due to poor training. They get the " how " but not the " why. " Then you get the pebble in the pond effect, the ripples flow outward. Isn't easy to tell the officers on the street by who trained them? Maybe not in your agency but very easy in mine. If you don't have this problem, (good FTO) then you are extremely lucky. That is something that has been discussed here. Older officers have often expressed dismay at the attitude of the newbies, they already know everything and don't want to be taught they want to write tickets, arrest the bad guys, get that motherloade of drugs in that next semi truck rolling down the highway. This is the major problem, in our area, why the FTO program has become a joke. One of the troops doing it was almost fired due to racial profiling, harrassment of prisoners, and being an all around jerk to the general public. But he is a very high ticket writer so he stays. Therefore the pebble in the pond continues to make ripples. No supervisors care. > With todays law-suit happy world, the cop of today does the job as best > he/she can, with the time and the departmental and local restraints that they > have to deal with. > Most officers that go in today understand the low pay and low moral that goes > with the job. See, as a dispatcher, you are slamming the cops of your own > dept. I'm not sure if you are aligning this statement to your own department or not, but here in Iowa a new trooper will start just a few thousand below the Iowa median income of $36k / year and be over that amount in 2 years. While a dispatcher will start at about $12k less than the median income and never reach that amount in the 7 years it takes to reach the top pay range. Troopers in Iowa, while in training, are told they are the elite of the state law enforcement and are second to none, they are adored by all and are 2nd only to God. I'm not making this up. A Des Moines Register poll taken a few years ago said this. In one of their own year books is a picture of a trooper with several women looking up at him, the caption is (paraphrasing) " Women swoon over a man in uniform. " > If cops today cannot even get support from their own agency, where are they > to turn? > Also understand, as I know...that after a cop leaves after a call for > service...some people are not happy. Maybe they do not understand how the law > works. Maybe they need someone to vent to....True, maybe the cop they dealt > with was rude. I cannot answer that response. It is one thing to deal with > people on the phone. It is quite another thing to have to deal with a not > drunk enough person to arrest (there are laws reference when and can't you > can arrest someone) and have to explain to these people how the system works. True, true. I think we are in agreement here. But to pick a nit, we are a support group, part of the Iowa State Patrol. They didn't want us, the legislature " gave " us to them. Now they don't know what to do with us. > The system is in place. Most officers on the road do a damn fine job with it. > The few that don't manage to tangle themselves up, or wash out down the road. > Just like the dispatch conversations we have had here with dispatchers. Yes, > cops are people too. Until you understand that yes, there are some agencies > that hinder the actions of cops, OR, there are some good (and young) cops out > there...and until you understand that cops do try to help...there isnt much > more I can add to this. Just like dispatchers...there are good cops, super > cops and border line ones. I would have to say, that yes more than half do a good job. But more and more you hear about agencies doing paperwork on all traffic stops to keep track of who may or maynot be racially profiling, what officers may or may not be violating the civil rights of people. The officers get told and they ignore it. Again, it is lack of or just poor supervision and their hunt for glory. > The courts are clogged up because of the system, the way people are raised > and not raised. It is not the cop that clogs the system. It is the actions of > all. And until someone finds a better way..that is the way it is. I cannot > explain it any different. If you know of a better way...please let us all > know!!! It is hard for all involved.... I don't understand here....if the cop does some " on the street " counseling or gets counseling for those types you and I have discussed, maybe the arrest won't happen therefore the court system will be less clogged. How people are raised becomes the court concern when they come in front of the court. How & why they got there is the concern of the prosecutor & police. It would fit that if some can be turned from the " dark side " less time and effort will be wasted on residivisim. Take for example the sheriff in Arizona who makes his prisoners wear pink underwear, eat green balogna, watch Disney channel & CNN (I think). They sleep in tents in the desert too. Repeat offenders are a terrible curse on this society. 61% nationwide is an accepted number. His department has admitted to a 62% residivism rate. Why? I understand that the cop can't raise the kid, but they could assist in the short term and possibly prevent crime, injury or death in the long term. Consider this is not the most letigious period in history, that belongs to the late 19th century. Great give & take Cin.... > > Cin in good ole Ohio > happy day, be safe > ******************************************************************** Iowa State Patrol Communications Cedar Rapids Werling, Anamosa, IA AOL IM Ridgeroader http://www.jonescountytourism.com http://www.ia.net/~anachamb/pumpkin.html http://www.earthsat.com/Iowa/Winter.html (roads) http://www.thehungersite.com (feed someone today) mailto:scott@... 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Guest guest Posted December 11, 2000 Report Share Posted December 11, 2000 Since I was partly the cause of this little debate... I'd like to make clear my position. A little less " Rambo " A little more " Andy " . We need both... and I'm afraid that the newer officers are not being taught just how important " Andy " is. Weintraut Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted December 11, 2000 Report Share Posted December 11, 2000 I certainly agree.We know we need quick response units with special training for certain situations.But as long as we dress our personnel in cammo and combat boots,the attitudes will be hard to change.It's real hard for people (especially kids)to relate to an officer who looks like a storm trooper.I think alot more emphasis needs to be placed on the old style " beat cop " concept.Get to know the folks and let them know you. >Since I was partly the cause of this little debate... > >I'd like to make clear my position. > >A little less " Rambo " > >A little more " Andy " . > >We need both... and I'm afraid that the newer officers are not being >taught just how important " Andy " is. > >Weintraut Rick D'Atrio,Lt. Delray Beach Florida Fire Dept. rdatrio@... " if it is to be,it is up to me " ________________________________________________________________________________\ _____ Get more from the Web. FREE MSN Explorer download : http://explorer.msn.com Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted December 11, 2000 Report Share Posted December 11, 2000 Re: 911:: Peace Officers > Since I was partly the cause of this little debate... > > I'd like to make clear my position. > > A little less " Rambo " > > A little more " Andy " . > > We need both... and I'm afraid that the newer officers are not being > taught just how important " Andy " is. > > Weintraut --------------------------------------------------------------------------- ----------------------------------------------- Many agencies have the motto " to protect and serve " Many new officers are not getting the " serve " part of it. I know there are many calls officers don't like to go on, they are a waste of time and energy, but that is part of customer service. I don't necessarily like to send them on these calls, however if the complainant demands and officer I don't have a choice. Normally I try to let the officer know that all possibilities were exhausted before we sent them out there. Some appreciate that some don't. But Hey, it goes with the pretty girls and the pension as a fellow said in a movie one time. Along with I can remember some of the old days, not as many as him , but we remember what it was like have officers who were glad to have a job and willing to please the public they serve. Now, and it is the same with many dispatchers, we are getting into an us against them philosopy, against the public, interdepartmental problems and problems with other agencies. alluded to people complaining about not having troopers available. In our county, unless it is a very major accident the troopers are usually not called off their meal breaks, this isn't to bad except when you see two or three units checked out at the same restaurant, the troopers here really like the oriental food. I think that if there are three working only two should be allowed to go on a break at the same time, our dpt does not allow more than two units to go to a restaurant at the same time, and their meal breaks are subject to call out. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted December 12, 2000 Report Share Posted December 12, 2000 >I know there are many calls officers don't like to go on, they are a waste of time and energy, but that is part of customer service. I don't necessarily like to send them on these calls, however if the complainant demands and officer I don't have a choice.< I know exactly what you're saying... But I must disagree with you when you say " I don't necessarily like to send them on these calls " . Every dispatcher I know has this same feeling (including myself), and it's wrong... If the call demands an officer... we send one.. We shouldn't feel guilty about it, the officer should feel guilty when he complains about having to take the call. >Along with I can remember some of the old days, not as many as him ,< Now, that was totally uncalled for! (grin) >but we remember what it was like have officers who were glad to have a job and willing to please the public they serve. Now, and it is the same with many dispatchers, we are getting into an us against them philosopy< The " us against them philosophy " is certainly a big part of it, and where does that come from?... Sure, if you're working a high crime area, in a major metro area, some of that's going to slip in. However, I work a rural area, problems, yes, but anything major is rare... I've got young troops, strapping on leather gloves, shaving their heads, wearing $100 sunglasses... trying to act like the guys on " COPS " ... What the hell is that????? You mention " customer service " .... That should be taught in the academy. Both Enforcement and Dispatch need classes in customer service. Think about it.. a very small percentage of the calls that our agencies answer are actually emergency calls. The majority are calls in which the caller needs our help... or " service " ... after all we, in addition to enforcing the law, our job is to " serve the public " ... If we don't take care of the " service " calls in a professional manner, we are making a huge mistake... The person who just looked out the window and saw two feet of snow on the ground.... and then called you to find out how the roads are.... may be an idiot (grin)... but how you answer that call may be the only contact he ever has with your agency. That's probably a poor example... but you know what I mean. Oh.... and to take a little heat of the " new units " ... I gave a 10 year troop an accident yesterday... he was sitting across the street in a restaurant.... The cell phone rings... and in a rough voice he ask.... " Is that compliments of the county? " Pardon my language.... Who cares?.... It's a call.... Take care of it! I've rambled enough... time to go to work... " missing Andy " Weintraut Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted December 12, 2000 Report Share Posted December 12, 2000 Re: 911:: Peace Officers > >I know there are many calls officers don't like to go on, they are a waste > of time and energy, but that is part > of customer service. I don't necessarily like to send them on these calls, > however if the complainant demands and officer I don't have a choice.< > > I know exactly what you're saying... But I must disagree with you > when you say " I don't necessarily like to send them on these calls " . ------------------------------------------------- Of course, sometimes it depends on the officer. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted December 12, 2000 Report Share Posted December 12, 2000 <<<<<<<<<<<snip>>>>>>>>>>>> I found a way to cover yourself is to log that " officer advised he was out on meal and would respond when he finished eating. " <<<<<<<<<<<snip>>>>>>>>>>>> Oh ......believe you me.....I log what they say!! If they say they are eating...that is how it's logged. However, I have not told them over the air that I log it that way, but they have access to the radio log in our network so it's there for everyone to see; including the deputy chief and sheriff himself. I learned a long time ago that in this profession, the primary reason for documenting is to CYA!! :-) -------------------------------------------------------------- Cain 9-1-1 Dispatcher/Training Officer Randolph County Communications 155 E. South Street Winchester, Indiana 47394 mcain@... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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