911:: Overtime scheduling question.

[Guest guest]

When working in Orlando, we did something similar to what you did. There was

a list we kept of comm center employees, when it was time to fill an overtime

slot, we went to the list to see who was eligible (as in not conflicting with

their regular work schedule). Of those eligible, it was noted who was

mandatoried to work last and the next name on the list is your gal/guy! The

eligible employees for the half shift would come from those currently on

duty...mandatoried to stay for the additional hours. Then, if necessary, we

would call the oncoming shift and advise the dayshift person who was next on

the list that their number was up, see you early. This of course ended up

making folks mad, but it happened to everyone and was just the nature of the

beast. At least it was equitable. In your case, it is obvious that this

person who never worked OT...well she was due!

Stacey K

[Guest guest]

First I will set the stage, then i will pose my dilemma.

When overtime becomes available, we do not post a sign up sheet, seniors

perform a call in routine that

consists of paging then calling the employees residence. We have 6 part time

employees, and the shifts go to them

first, except when it will constitute OT for them, or on premium days such as

sundays and holidays.

The date in question is a saturday nightwork (12 hour shifts), the full time

employee (54) put in for vacation

and was approved, and the shift was covered with a part timer (94). The part

timer (94) calls a week later and

cannot work the entire 12 hour shift, only the back half (we allow for split

shifts).

I go through all of the part timers and none will take the shift, I start on

the full timers to see if anyone

wants to take the OT. No takers. I check with my Director, and he instructs me

to fill the shift, no matter what

needs to be done, fill it.

My next step is to call the daywork shift (4 persons) to see if any of them

WANT to take the additional 6 hours

on the end of their regularly scheduled 12 hour daywork, resulting in an 18 hour

shift and making the next two days

double time pay for them. 2 returned my calls and denied, the other two never

called in. One of the two that did

not call in is dispatcher (12), this person NEVER returns pages and does not

answer the phone when we call (caller

id), nor does he/she return messages. When this person is confronted while on

shift, he/she simply denies all OT

offers. He/she apparently has a heart condition for which he/she has medical

approval NOT to work beyond 12 hour

shift because he/she will miss medication. Why he/she doesn't bring meds to work

is beyond me, but beside the

point.

I once again check with my Director, who reiterates that the shift must be

filled. I suggest that we double

check with the vacation requesting employee (54) to see if they absolutely

need/want that day off, the Director

instructs to just fill the 6 hour shift. Force FT before PT, he stated.

What are my options here? I'll tell you what I did.

I wrote an inter-office (must initial form upon receipt) to dispatcher 12

advising him/her that he/she has been

forced to work an additional 6 hour shift on such and such date, resulting in

him/her working 0600 hrs until 0001

hrs. I advised that they were chosen from the shift due to their " overtime

accepted " rank. (which means that 12

worked the least amount of overtime for the year so far).

What would you have done in similar situation? Would you have forced a part

timer in for the 6 hours? Or would

you have done as I have? Don't let this become another part timer issue, that's

not the point. The question is,

what are your policies for such an occasion?

J. Fred Ayars

Senior PST

Salem County NJ

[Guest guest]

Fred, I think you've just set yourself up for some trouble with dispatcher

12. If this person has medical excuse (meaning you have on file

documentation from doctor that they can not work more then 12 consecutive

hours), You're opening the door for an ADA case.

On the other hand, I would not work 18 consecutive hours, I don't care who

ordered me in and probably would try to get a note saying I couldn't work

more then 13 or 14 consecutive hours. How do you do it working that many

hours? That's a huge liability (not just to the agency) in my eyes....

But to answer your question, is it possible to split the shift this way...

dispatcher 12 comes in for 6 hours, goes home for 6, then back for 6? Or have

dispatcher 12 come in 6 hours later then normal. Are you working solo

dispatchers or double? If it's solo, then neither of these suggestions would

work.

I can forsee dispatcher 12 putting their headset away at the end of the

normal 12hour shift and leaving, and having no one to dispatch for 6 hours.

Please let me know how this turns out....

Kathy

[Guest guest]

<<Force FT before PT, he stated. >>

If no one that was called/paged responds for overtime, the captive audience

is polled for volunteers. If there are no volunteers , the person with the

least OT in the last 30 days is ordered to stay and given permission to

recite the " I've got a life outside LESA " speech.

Bob in Tacoma

Law Enforcement Support Agency (LESA)

[Guest guest]

Our dispatchers are union, so we have very specific rules for call-ins/OT

that actually appear in the contract. Everything is seniority based.

Dispatchers can't work more than 12 hours in any given 24 hour period or

more than 12 hours straight (our shifts are 8 hours). We don't do part-time

(why? I don't know, probably some union thing...).

We've gone so far as to actually send units to dispatchers homes to attempt

to deliver the message that they've been forced to work (this usually occurs

when someone has called in sick at 0300 for the shift that starts at 0700

and no one wants to stay over or can't and the available dayshifters

refused... then those bozo's who don't answer the phone get a police officer

at their door at 0530).

=============================================

kevbayer911@... IM:kevbayer911

~If at first you don't succeed, do it the way your wife told you~

TheBayerFamilyWebSite:

http://sites.netscape.net/kevbayer/index.html

=============================================

[Guest guest]

Our dispatchers are union, so we have very specific rules for call-ins/OT

that actually appear in the contract. Everything is seniority based.

Dispatchers can't work more than 12 hours in any given 24 hour period or

more than 12 hours straight (our shifts are 8 hours). We don't do part-time

(why? I don't know, probably some union thing...).

We've gone so far as to actually send units to dispatchers homes to attempt

to deliver the message that they've been forced to work (this usually occurs

when someone has called in sick at 0300 for the shift that starts at 0700

and no one wants to stay over or can't and the available dayshifters

refused... then those bozo's who don't answer the phone get a police officer

at their door at 0530).

=============================================

kevbayer911@... IM:kevbayer911

~If at first you don't succeed, do it the way your wife told you~

TheBayerFamilyWebSite:

http://sites.netscape.net/kevbayer/index.html

=============================================

[Guest guest]

<<then those bozo's who don't answer the phone get a police officer

at their door at 0530>>

Color me bozo. I had an officer at my door once. I consider it harassment.

Our contract requires me to have a working phone. Says nothing about

answering it.

Just for the record, tho, I am consistently in the top group as far as ot

worked.

But I still think it is uncalled for.

Bob in Tacoma

[Guest guest]

<<then those bozo's who don't answer the phone get a police officer

at their door at 0530>>

Color me bozo. I had an officer at my door once. I consider it harassment.

Our contract requires me to have a working phone. Says nothing about

answering it.

Just for the record, tho, I am consistently in the top group as far as ot

worked.

But I still think it is uncalled for.

Bob in Tacoma

[Guest guest]

<<the contract didn't specify that you speak>>

Well,if I couldn't speak, that would be good exercise to the phone and back

in the middle of the night...:-)

Back when I was young and foolish (remembering we are a civilian

organization)I grabbed the phone every time it rang and would hop right

into work if I was " ordered " to. I know better now. I am not " on call " , I

am " Bob, would you come to work early? " and I can say yes or no. The shift

currently at work can be ordered to stay if no one volunteers. The loser is

chosen the same way, by who has the least ot in the last 30 days. I find

it easier to volunteer for all the ot I can at the beginning of the month so

when it comes down to it I am not the " loser " in the " who has to stay "

contest.

Yeah, they try to stay away from days off here, too. But even vacations

aren't sacred anymore. I had August off and got called 4 times to

work.(don't ask what my 4 answers were!)

Bob in Tacoma

Law Enforcement Support Agency

[Guest guest]

<< called (short

of a major catastrophe).>>

That's another good. What about disasters? We have a sleeping volcano in

our county. Do you have a employee recall disaster plan? We have an " a "

group and a " b " group. If you are off and the dreaded " LAHAR " happens, " a "

groups reports to work immediately w/out being called and " b " group reports

in 12 hours. Each group planning to stay at least 12 hrs.

Bob (bored) in Tacoma

Law Enforcement Support Agency

[Guest guest]

Well First off if you tried calling me at 5am, I for one would not pick up

the phone, because I am a very hevy sleeper and I dont here the phone at

that time of morning. Number two, if you sent someone out to my house at

that time, I would not wake up when they knocked on the door as I live in a

2 story house and my bedroom is on the second floor. There is no way

possible unless the officer is going to climb up onto the roof and find my

bedroom window will he wake me. I think sending an officer to an employee

house is very much over kill and a waist of his time and everyone else

involved.

Jim from North East Ohio

LifeCare Ambulance

E-mail LifeCare449@...

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[Guest guest]

Bob in Tacoma is right.....that IS harassment.....and as I recall, there was

a previous thread on this list about this subject. One person recommended

answering the door with a cold beer in hand and a slight slur to their

speech. LOL

Marcia in Pierce County

[Guest guest]

>I had an officer at my door once. I consider it harassment.

Our contract requires me to have a working phone. Says nothing about

answering it.

Like " Bozo Bob " ... I too would consider this harassment...

Not in " emergency " situations... If it's an emergency, I want to

be there... If my people need help.. I want to be there....

Shortage of personnel is not an " emergency " ... It's a condition

brought on by the people refuse to take the steps necessary

to bring our profession and working conditions up to standard.

Our " agreement " ... it's just an agreement, as we do not have

collective bargaining, allows employees to turn down mandatory

overtime twice per year. (once every six months)...

We are supposed (I don't know of any post who does this) to have

two overtime lists... One voluntary.. one mandatory.

If you sign up on the voluntary overtime lists it starts by seniority, and

you go down the lists until you find someone to work... The mandatory

lists uses seniority in reverse...

With only five dispatchers... this system is nearly impossible to

work... it's really made for the larger state agencies.

Luckily I have good people.. who don't grumble (much) about overtime.

Although I've found they are not eager to work it... lots of gripe

about pay (justified).. but don't want to have to work the extra

hours to bring in the money... (understandable).

When you must send an officer to someone's home, trying to

find people to fill shifts... shouldn't that tell someone about

one of the real problems we face in our profession????

That's my rant for today.

Weintraut

[Guest guest]

>I had an officer at my door once. I consider it harassment.

Our contract requires me to have a working phone. Says nothing about

answering it.

Like " Bozo Bob " ... I too would consider this harassment...

Not in " emergency " situations... If it's an emergency, I want to

be there... If my people need help.. I want to be there....

Shortage of personnel is not an " emergency " ... It's a condition

brought on by the people refuse to take the steps necessary

to bring our profession and working conditions up to standard.

Our " agreement " ... it's just an agreement, as we do not have

collective bargaining, allows employees to turn down mandatory

overtime twice per year. (once every six months)...

We are supposed (I don't know of any post who does this) to have

two overtime lists... One voluntary.. one mandatory.

If you sign up on the voluntary overtime lists it starts by seniority, and

you go down the lists until you find someone to work... The mandatory

lists uses seniority in reverse...

With only five dispatchers... this system is nearly impossible to

work... it's really made for the larger state agencies.

Luckily I have good people.. who don't grumble (much) about overtime.

Although I've found they are not eager to work it... lots of gripe

about pay (justified).. but don't want to have to work the extra

hours to bring in the money... (understandable).

When you must send an officer to someone's home, trying to

find people to fill shifts... shouldn't that tell someone about

one of the real problems we face in our profession????

That's my rant for today.

Weintraut

[Guest guest]

>but not all staff

shortages are management fault.

I agree, but only partially (grin)....

I understand that sick time, vacation, and other factors can

cause a personnel shortage that is no one persons fault....

But, if you look at most centers.. even when they are at full staff...

they simply don't have enough people to contend with things

like sick time, vacation, training, maternity leave...

I supervise a state police facility... one operator per shift needed..

I'm considered full staff when I have five dispatchers...

That's five dispatchers to cover 24 hours a day 365 days a year.

That's my point... five dispatchers makes me full staff.

That's ridiculous.

Weintraut

[Guest guest]

I agree, but only partially. I understand that some agencies have

management/government that keeps them short staffed, but not all staff

shortages are management fault.

Right now we have a full time staff of 16, and 6 part time employees.

Shift staffing is 4. There are 3 people who are sick with the flu. This

weekend is one of our dispatchers wedding, she took the last half of this

week off, and all of next week. Another dispatcher is in her wedding, she

took saturday and sunday off. Next week there are two of our dispatchers out

for surgery, one on the shoulder and one on the knee. Starting the second

half of next week, for 7 days, two other employees are going to Canada on a

hunting trip. Of the 6 part timers, one is away at college in Kentucky, one

is full time at another comm center, another has a full time job, two are

full time local students, and the last is a new mother.

I work with a bunch of dedicated and great people, but the next three

weeks are going to be a trying time for everyone. If any new " shift shortage "

issue crops up, we will be at an " emergency " status that is no one persons

fault.

J. Fred

NJ

wrote:

> Not in " emergency " situations... If it's an emergency, I want to

> be there... If my people need help.. I want to be there....

>

> Shortage of personnel is not an " emergency " ... It's a condition

> brought on by the people refuse to take the steps necessary

> to bring our profession and working conditions up to standard.

>

[Guest guest]

> Organization: Salem Fire Dept. / Jitter N The Bug DJ's

> To: 911consoleegroups

>

> Date: Mon, 23 Oct 2000 15:17:08 -0400

> Reply-to: 911consoleegroups

> Subject: Re: 911:: Overtime scheduling question.

============<snip===========

> I work with a bunch of dedicated and great people, but the next three

> weeks are going to be a trying time for everyone. If any new " shift shortage "

> issue crops up, we will be at an " emergency " status that is no one persons

> fault.

> J. Fred

> NJ

>

------------<snip>--------------

Sounds like hunting season up here...

Last November, I worked 50 o/t hours in one two-week pay period!

All events of this type are important to each individual, and need to

be recognized...just which one do you tell can't have the time off?

Not a good situation to be in...

Still, gotta get the job done! You gotta do what ya gotta do...

Nick Wagner

Cortland Co. (NY) Sheriff's Dept

E9-1-1 Center/Sr. Supervisor

mailto:nwagner@...

[Guest guest]

Regarding from Tacoma's posting about the legal liabilities of

forcing someone to work in direct contradiction of doctor's orders: RIGHT

ON! Why on earth would any supervisor/manager want to put themself and their

department in such a position?? You can bet any manager that tried that in

our agency would find themselves unemployed.....and rightfully so!

Marcia

Pierce Co. WA

[Guest guest]

> > so how many is enough? what's the number? 6? 7? how many days a year is

> > a dispatcher absent for any given reason? if that adds up to 2080 hours

> > then you need another person? 1040 hours, you could use part-time help.

> > now there may be other factors involved that are specific to your

> situation.

> > rich

> > ********************************************************************

It's Catch 22, Rich. If you could foresee time away from the job, that

would

be easy to schedule extra help or get new people etc. Within a state run

facility it is not easy to pre-schedule for much more than military leave,

predetermined sick leave (surgery, birth, maybe terminal illness).

Therefore, it is not possible to for people at Weintraut's level to do much

about additional staff without the proverbial Act of Congress. Even if he

is

able to convince his higher ups of more staff it could be as little as 1

year or as much as 5 before that new body comes through the door (assuming

everyone else stays put).

Working at the state level is very frustrating at times.

Werling, Anamosa, IA

http://www.jonescountytourism.com

http://www.ia.net/~anachamb/pumpkin.html

http://www.earthsat.com/Iowa/Winter.html (roads)

http://www.thehungersite.com (feed someone today)

mailto:scott@...

[Guest guest]

> been there, done that, scott. i can appreciate the problem. but there

are

> some things you can do. during any given 12 month period, how much

vacation

> time would be taken assuming everyone took all the vac time they were

> entitled to? i assume that in a small agency only 1 person at a time can

> take vacation. sick time? use the past X years to determine the average

> number of sick days taken by all operators. you'd have to custom this to

> whatever specific conditions exist at your center. example...when someone

> is out on vac or sick do you run short, cover with OT or bring someone in

> off the street? just something to think about.

>

> rich

> ********************************************************************

We have had that same problem. Our station ran 30% short of help for almost

2 years. Couldn't even give the job away.

We tried the sick leave & vacation thing. The powers that be just scoffed

and said that never happens and if it does we just deal with it.

Typical state government operation, Crisis Management. They can't manage

without a crisis!

Werling, Anamosa, IA Iowa State Patrol Communications Cedar Rapids

http://www.jonescountytourism.com

http://www.ia.net/~anachamb/pumpkin.html

http://www.earthsat.com/Iowa/Winter.html (roads)

http://www.thehungersite.com (feed someone today)

mailto:scott@...