Re: Is it worse when it could be worse?

[Guest guest]

Sara, your response reminded me of a time I hadn't given much thought

to lately. I was over 12 (cause at 12 I had to start doing my own

laundry) and she yelled at me about the dryer running (they were poor

and she was obsessed with " wasting _______ " ). I cried to my father,

asking him why it was such a big deal and why did she have to yell and

carry on so much, and he pretty much just sat there and looked at me,

answerless.

Thank you all so much for validating my experiences.

> >

> > Clearly, there are many levels of BPD, as everyone is different.

> With

> > me, my mother never said " I hate you " or " I wish you were never

> born "

> > or " You make me sick " , but she would LOOK at me like she hated me.

> > Stare with this intensity of hatred and disgust.

> >

> > She never saw I had a broken ankle and refused to take me to the

> > doctor, but when I woke up and couldn't move my arm, she made me

> wait

> > until her 30 minute phone call was over to look at me even though I

> > was crying. And when I awoke from anesthesia for the first time

> after

> > wisdom teeth removal and was groggy and confused, she yelled at me

> all

> > the way to the car door and all the way home. I was confused and

> too

> > slow moving for her. Most people would react with kindness!

> >

> > She didn't beat me, but when I was 10 and she was curling my hair,

> I

> > had the nerve to say " ouch " as she was burning me and her response

> was

> > to pull my hair and get in my face and tell me to shut the hell

> up.

> > As I cried, she continued curling, making sure she did burn my

> scalp

> > and that I was to say nothing of it! We were headed to a funeral,

> and

> > I cried for 2 hours once this incident started, I was so deeply

> hurt

> > by her nastiness and obvious hatred towards me.

> >

> > So, do any of you have a hard time with a BP parent who was able to

> > stay within the boundaries of *obvious* cruelty? Do you think that

> > makes it difficult for others to understand your consequently

> intense

> > anger/hatred/resentment towards her as you become an adult?

> >

>

[Guest guest]

My nada too! I just realized, you know detangler did exist when I

was young and yet I would sit there for hours crying as she yanked

out the knots

Sara

>

> OMG, my nada did/said this same exact thing !!! I always thought

she pulled

> my hair on purpose, using " brushing " as a cover, because she did

it SO often

>

> Jackie

>

>

> ... when I was young I was a very pretty blonde haired

blue eyed

> child. I had gorgeous blonde locks.. and had to go through *hell*

every

> time The Nada decided to wash my hair.

> She'd pull my hair so hard with that comb ... and I'd complain

and yell

> and pain... only to be told to shut up. If I cried .. for any

reason ... I

> was told to stop crying or I'd be given something to cry about.

>

[Guest guest]

Okay, what is UP with the hair thing?!

I had this problem too! Is this, like, some unknown BPD criterion we should be

aware of?:

" will likely tear brush through child's hair and give child headache with

unnecessarily tight

ponytails "

My mom was weird with the physical violence. I know she would scare herself if

she hurt

me, and would say it was an accident. Once, she was at the top of the stairs

while I was at

the bottom, and she threw a glass at me. It shattered, and cut my leg to bits.

To this day,

she says the glass slipped. On other occasions, she knew where I would lie on

the floor of

my room (in front of the door to block her) and she would slam it open and hit

my head.

Again, an " accident " . All I know is, that " I'm going to kill you " look terrified

me to the core.

I still believe if I hadn't been faster than she was, she might have really

damaged me.

Somehow, I appreciated those moments, though. I understood physical violence

because it

was something I could see. All the emotional stuff was so hard to put my finger

on. How

do you explain to someone it's not just a teenage daughter/mom fight?

I did hit back though. I socked her once, and even now, I feel absolutely no

remorse.

Almost wish I'd hit her more often. It actually makes me proud...

kisses and one VERY loose ponytail,

RbW

> > Clearly, there are many levels of BPD, as everyone is

> different. With

> > me, my mother never said " I hate you " or " I wish you were never

> born "

> > or " You make me sick " , but she would LOOK at me like she hated me.

> > Stare with this intensity of hatred and disgust.

> >

> > She never saw I had a broken ankle and refused to take me to the

> > doctor, but when I woke up and couldn't move my arm, she made me

> wait

> > until her 30 minute phone call was over to look at me even though I

> > was crying. And when I awoke from anesthesia for the first time

> after

> > wisdom teeth removal and was groggy and confused, she yelled at me

> all

> > the way to the car door and all the way home. I was confused and too

> > slow moving for her. Most people would react with kindness!

> >

> > She didn't beat me, but when I was 10 and she was curling my hair, I

> > had the nerve to say " ouch " as she was burning me and her response

> was

> > to pull my hair and get in my face and tell me to shut the hell up.

> > As I cried, she continued curling, making sure she did burn my scalp

> > and that I was to say nothing of it! We were headed to a funeral,

> and

> > I cried for 2 hours once this incident started, I was so deeply hurt

> > by her nastiness and obvious hatred towards me.

> >

> > So, do any of you have a hard time with a BP parent who was able to

> > stay within the boundaries of *obvious* cruelty? Do you think that

> > makes it difficult for others to understand your consequently

> intense

> > anger/hatred/resentment towards her as you become an adult?

> >

> >

> >

> >

> >

> >

> > ---------------------------------

> > Ahhh...imagining that irresistible " new car " smell?

> > Check outnew cars at Yahoo! Autos.

> >

> >

[Guest guest]

>Okay, what is UP with the hair thing?!

I think it was nadas way of inflicting pain but if we told anyone, it would

look like a honest accident and we would be babies...

Jackie

[Guest guest]

I assume it was around when I was a kid, but even if it wasn't, if you go

slowly and take a little at a time, it cane be done with out much hair loss

and no pain...

Jackie

My nada too! I just realized, you know detangler did exist when I

was young and yet I would sit there for hours crying as she yanked

out the knots

Sara

[Guest guest]

I think the hair thing is perfect for a nada. First, she gives

herself points for being a loving caring mother by brushing her

child's hair. But unfortunately, the child is so ungrateful, she

yells, cries, etc. But the hair must be brushed - that is what good

mother's do. And if her ungrateful child is jerking around, well

then if the hair is being pulled, it is the child's fault. Poor

nada, she is just trying to help this bad child (NOT).

Sylvia

>

> Okay, what is UP with the hair thing?!

>

> I had this problem too! Is this, like, some unknown BPD criterion

we should be aware of?:

> " will likely tear brush through child's hair and give child

headache with unnecessarily tight

> ponytails "

>......

[Guest guest]

I was another one who could dodge and out run her untill she realized that

physicaly abusing me was a bad idea. I got really got at dodging hair brushes.

My other big thing was to dive under the bed, cause she couldn't reach me. If

she did get a hold of me I was so wiggly she couldn't keep me. The only thing

that worked is when she would sit on me. A few times when she sat on me I would

scream at the top of my lungs so she would grab a cloth and stuff it in my

mouth. Holy Crap know that I look at this, that was scary as heck. Ok I meant

this to be a out ran her story but I guess I didn't allways. Do any of the rest

of you start off a post and then a stream of consiousness just takes over you

and you remember stuff you burried? It is kind of scary for me when it happens.

Then I get all worried that you all aren't going to believe me......oh my I am

havig a KO moment!

Lilly

rainbowisteria wrote:

Okay, what is UP with the hair thing?!

I had this problem too! Is this, like, some unknown BPD criterion we should be

aware of?:

" will likely tear brush through child's hair and give child headache with

unnecessarily tight

ponytails "

My mom was weird with the physical violence. I know she would scare herself if

she hurt

me, and would say it was an accident. Once, she was at the top of the stairs

while I was at

the bottom, and she threw a glass at me. It shattered, and cut my leg to bits.

To this day,

she says the glass slipped. On other occasions, she knew where I would lie on

the floor of

my room (in front of the door to block her) and she would slam it open and hit

my head.

Again, an " accident " . All I know is, that " I'm going to kill you " look terrified

me to the core.

I still believe if I hadn't been faster than she was, she might have really

damaged me.

Somehow, I appreciated those moments, though. I understood physical violence

because it

was something I could see. All the emotional stuff was so hard to put my finger

on. How

do you explain to someone it's not just a teenage daughter/mom fight?

I did hit back though. I socked her once, and even now, I feel absolutely no

remorse.

Almost wish I'd hit her more often. It actually makes me proud...

kisses and one VERY loose ponytail,

RbW

> > Clearly, there are many levels of BPD, as everyone is

> different. With

> > me, my mother never said " I hate you " or " I wish you were never

> born "

> > or " You make me sick " , but she would LOOK at me like she hated me.

> > Stare with this intensity of hatred and disgust.

> >

> > She never saw I had a broken ankle and refused to take me to the

> > doctor, but when I woke up and couldn't move my arm, she made me

> wait

> > until her 30 minute phone call was over to look at me even though I

> > was crying. And when I awoke from anesthesia for the first time

> after

> > wisdom teeth removal and was groggy and confused, she yelled at me

> all

> > the way to the car door and all the way home. I was confused and too

> > slow moving for her. Most people would react with kindness!

> >

> > She didn't beat me, but when I was 10 and she was curling my hair, I

> > had the nerve to say " ouch " as she was burning me and her response

> was

> > to pull my hair and get in my face and tell me to shut the hell up.

> > As I cried, she continued curling, making sure she did burn my scalp

> > and that I was to say nothing of it! We were headed to a funeral,

> and

> > I cried for 2 hours once this incident started, I was so deeply hurt

> > by her nastiness and obvious hatred towards me.

> >

> > So, do any of you have a hard time with a BP parent who was able to

> > stay within the boundaries of *obvious* cruelty? Do you think that

> > makes it difficult for others to understand your consequently

> intense

> > anger/hatred/resentment towards her as you become an adult?

> >

> >

> >

> >

> >

> >

> > ---------------------------------

> > Ahhh...imagining that irresistible " new car " smell?

> > Check outnew cars at Yahoo! Autos.

> >

> >

[Guest guest]

Wow, I think you nailed it! There might also be some " well, brushing

hair hurts. My mom brushed my hair and it hurt. " You think Nada rips

through her own hair though? Or does she take time and care with it?

>

> I think the hair thing is perfect for a nada. First, she gives

> herself points for being a loving caring mother by brushing her

> child's hair. But unfortunately, the child is so ungrateful, she

> yells, cries, etc. But the hair must be brushed - that is what good

> mother's do. And if her ungrateful child is jerking around, well

> then if the hair is being pulled, it is the child's fault. Poor

> nada, she is just trying to help this bad child (NOT).

>

> Sylvia

>

[Guest guest]

> Can i just say in a very small voice that my older daughter insists

that she wants her hair long, but throws a rip-roaring fit so often

when it's time to brush it, that i have told her that if this doesn't

stop, we'll have to get it cut short in a bob, because it needs to be

brushed. i don't intentionally pull it, but sometimes we are in a

hurry, because it has taken so long to get her to stand still and have

it done. i do take it piece by piece and try to be gentle, but i have

explained to her that sometimes it hurts to get the tangles out. i

have very long hair and sometimes it hurts when i brush it, but that's

just how it is with long hair!!< it's just that i am so insecure and

worry about the bpd fleas i have that i need to explain this! i think

kids just hate to get their hair brushed in general, and my daughter

specifically is pretty sensitive in many ways.

Tara

>

> >Okay, what is UP with the hair thing?!

>

>

> I think it was nadas way of inflicting pain but if we told anyone,

it would

> look like a honest accident and we would be babies...

>

> Jackie

>

[Guest guest]

Sara, I agree with you.

The words is MINIMIZATION ladies and gentlemen. The minimize their

affect on us and sow seeds of doubt in our brains about what

happened to hide it.

From my point of view - that's two abuses!

a

> >

> > Clearly, there are many levels of BPD, as everyone is

different.

> With

> > me, my mother never said " I hate you " or " I wish you were never

> born "

> > or " You make me sick " , but she would LOOK at me like she hated

me.

> > Stare with this intensity of hatred and disgust.

> >

> > She never saw I had a broken ankle and refused to take me to the

> > doctor, but when I woke up and couldn't move my arm, she made me

> wait

> > until her 30 minute phone call was over to look at me even

though I

> > was crying. And when I awoke from anesthesia for the first time

> after

> > wisdom teeth removal and was groggy and confused, she yelled at

me

> all

> > the way to the car door and all the way home. I was confused

and

> too

> > slow moving for her. Most people would react with kindness!

> >

> > She didn't beat me, but when I was 10 and she was curling my

hair,

> I

> > had the nerve to say " ouch " as she was burning me and her

response

> was

> > to pull my hair and get in my face and tell me to shut the hell

> up.

> > As I cried, she continued curling, making sure she did burn my

> scalp

> > and that I was to say nothing of it! We were headed to a

funeral,

> and

> > I cried for 2 hours once this incident started, I was so deeply

> hurt

> > by her nastiness and obvious hatred towards me.

> >

> > So, do any of you have a hard time with a BP parent who was able

to

> > stay within the boundaries of *obvious* cruelty? Do you think

that

> > makes it difficult for others to understand your consequently

> intense

> > anger/hatred/resentment towards her as you become an adult?

> >

>

[Guest guest]

I'm sorry that happened to you. How sad!

>

> Clearly, there are many levels of BPD, as everyone is different.

With

> me, my mother never said " I hate you " or " I wish you were never

born "

> or " You make me sick " , but she would LOOK at me like she hated me.

> Stare with this intensity of hatred and disgust.

>

> She never saw I had a broken ankle and refused to take me to the

> doctor, but when I woke up and couldn't move my arm, she made me

wait

> until her 30 minute phone call was over to look at me even though I

> was crying. And when I awoke from anesthesia for the first time

after

> wisdom teeth removal and was groggy and confused, she yelled at me

all

> the way to the car door and all the way home. I was confused and

too

> slow moving for her. Most people would react with kindness!

>

> She didn't beat me, but when I was 10 and she was curling my hair,

I

> had the nerve to say " ouch " as she was burning me and her response

was

> to pull my hair and get in my face and tell me to shut the hell

up.

> As I cried, she continued curling, making sure she did burn my

scalp

> and that I was to say nothing of it! We were headed to a funeral,

and

> I cried for 2 hours once this incident started, I was so deeply

hurt

> by her nastiness and obvious hatred towards me.

>

> So, do any of you have a hard time with a BP parent who was able to

> stay within the boundaries of *obvious* cruelty? Do you think that

> makes it difficult for others to understand your consequently

intense

> anger/hatred/resentment towards her as you become an adult?

>

[Guest guest]

Start at the bottom of the hair and go slowly. Is she old enough to

brush her own hair yet? You can teach her the technique of starting

slowly at the bottom. If you're at least trying to be gentle and

taking it in sections...that's way more than my mom did.

> >

> > >Okay, what is UP with the hair thing?!

> >

> >

> > I think it was nadas way of inflicting pain but if we told anyone,

> it would

> > look like a honest accident and we would be babies...

> >

> > Jackie

> >

>

[Guest guest]

Thank you.

> >

> > Clearly, there are many levels of BPD, as everyone is different.

> With

> > me, my mother never said " I hate you " or " I wish you were never

> born "

> > or " You make me sick " , but she would LOOK at me like she hated me.

> > Stare with this intensity of hatred and disgust.

> >

> > She never saw I had a broken ankle and refused to take me to the

> > doctor, but when I woke up and couldn't move my arm, she made me

> wait

> > until her 30 minute phone call was over to look at me even though I

> > was crying. And when I awoke from anesthesia for the first time

> after

> > wisdom teeth removal and was groggy and confused, she yelled at me

> all

> > the way to the car door and all the way home. I was confused and

> too

> > slow moving for her. Most people would react with kindness!

> >

> > She didn't beat me, but when I was 10 and she was curling my hair,

> I

> > had the nerve to say " ouch " as she was burning me and her response

> was

> > to pull my hair and get in my face and tell me to shut the hell

> up.

> > As I cried, she continued curling, making sure she did burn my

> scalp

> > and that I was to say nothing of it! We were headed to a funeral,

> and

> > I cried for 2 hours once this incident started, I was so deeply

> hurt

> > by her nastiness and obvious hatred towards me.

> >

> > So, do any of you have a hard time with a BP parent who was able to

> > stay within the boundaries of *obvious* cruelty? Do you think that

> > makes it difficult for others to understand your consequently

> intense

> > anger/hatred/resentment towards her as you become an adult?

> >

>

[Guest guest]

Also, what's your attitude when you're doing it? Is it " I know honey,

I'm sorry this hurts " ? or is it " shut up you big whiny baby! " ? That

makes all the difference...I hope that helps you feel better about it!

> >

> > >Okay, what is UP with the hair thing?!

> >

> >

> > I think it was nadas way of inflicting pain but if we told anyone,

> it would

> > look like a honest accident and we would be babies...

> >

> > Jackie

> >

>

[Guest guest]

I recently remembered this really disturbing thing that my nada and

grandmother did. Every summer vacation, they would say that I had

dirty ears and they woudl hold me down and " clean " the supposed

blackheads by popping them with a bobby pin. My father never

intervened, and neither did my aunt,t hough I noticed she never

allowed them to do it to her daughter. I remember enduring hours of

agony every night. Big tipoff for me that there was something wrong

with my grandmother, too...and yet I never thought to criticize it,

just accepted that I was " dirty " !

>

> >Okay, what is UP with the hair thing?!

>

>

> I think it was nadas way of inflicting pain but if we told anyone,

it would

> look like a honest accident and we would be babies...

>

> Jackie

>

[Guest guest]

Lilly, this is terrible! How awful for you, this would scare the

pants off anyone, nevermind a child.

I remember that while my mother only carried through on the threat a

few times, she loved to say " I'll take a hairbrush to you " . She

must have gotten it from somewhere!

Sara

> > > Clearly, there are many levels of BPD, as everyone is

> > different. With

> > > me, my mother never said " I hate you " or " I wish you were

never

> > born "

> > > or " You make me sick " , but she would LOOK at me like she hated

me.

> > > Stare with this intensity of hatred and disgust.

> > >

> > > She never saw I had a broken ankle and refused to take me to

the

> > > doctor, but when I woke up and couldn't move my arm, she made

me

> > wait

> > > until her 30 minute phone call was over to look at me even

though I

> > > was crying. And when I awoke from anesthesia for the first

time

> > after

> > > wisdom teeth removal and was groggy and confused, she yelled

at me

> > all

> > > the way to the car door and all the way home. I was confused

and too

> > > slow moving for her. Most people would react with kindness!

> > >

> > > She didn't beat me, but when I was 10 and she was curling my

hair, I

> > > had the nerve to say " ouch " as she was burning me and her

response

> > was

> > > to pull my hair and get in my face and tell me to shut the

hell up.

> > > As I cried, she continued curling, making sure she did burn my

scalp

> > > and that I was to say nothing of it! We were headed to a

funeral,

> > and

> > > I cried for 2 hours once this incident started, I was so

deeply hurt

> > > by her nastiness and obvious hatred towards me.

> > >

> > > So, do any of you have a hard time with a BP parent who was

able to

> > > stay within the boundaries of *obvious* cruelty? Do you think

that

> > > makes it difficult for others to understand your consequently

> > intense

> > > anger/hatred/resentment towards her as you become an adult?

> > >

> > >

> > >

> > >

> > >

> > >

> > > ---------------------------------

> > > Ahhh...imagining that irresistible " new car " smell?

> > > Check outnew cars at Yahoo! Autos.

> > >

> > >

[Guest guest]

This is where I have huge questions. I don't remember much, but having seen

my mother with my children, she pushes them one side, slaps them, pinches

them, I am beginning to realise she probably did the same with me. I was

told by my god mother that she wouldn't pick me up when i was crying as a

baby. Very not there.

I became almost reclusive when I grew up, not having many friends, disliked

my own name intensely. Was v polite at home, even asking if I could use the

phone. I just knew I didn't want to rock the boat.

Still trying to piece it all together.

[Guest guest]

One of my earliers memories is asking my parents whether I was

allowed to use the toilet!!

>

> This is where I have huge questions. I don't remember much, but

having seen

> my mother with my children, she pushes them one side, slaps them,

pinches

> them, I am beginning to realise she probably did the same with me.

I was

> told by my god mother that she wouldn't pick me up when i was

crying as a

> baby. Very not there.

> I became almost reclusive when I grew up, not having many friends,

disliked

> my own name intensely. Was v polite at home, even asking if I

could use the

> phone. I just knew I didn't want to rock the boat.

> Still trying to piece it all together.

>

>

>

[Guest guest]

sure do !! I was so terrified of nada my whole life...she'd threaten to

kill me many times, and tried a few...and with the hair brushing, she used

to make my ears bleed by brusing over them so hard...I started getting my

hair cute really short !! That also made her loose her hair grabbing

potential and she could drag me around like she did my sister

Jackie

I was another one who could dodge and out run her untill she realized that

physicaly abusing me was a bad idea. I got really got at dodging hair

brushes. My other big thing was to dive under the bed, cause she couldn't

reach me. If she did get a hold of me I was so wiggly she couldn't keep me.

The only thing that worked is when she would sit on me. A few times when

she sat on me I would scream at the top of my lungs so she would grab a

cloth and stuff it in my mouth. Holy Crap know that I look at this, that

was scary as heck. Ok I meant this to be a out ran her story but I guess I

didn't allways. Do any of the rest of you start off a post and then a

stream of consiousness just takes over you and you remember stuff you

burried? It is kind of scary for me when it happens. Then I get all

worried that you all aren't going to believe me......oh my I am havig a KO

moment!

Lilly

[Guest guest]

when blood is drawn because the hair is brushed over the ears so roughly...I

don't think that can be " accidental " or the natural pulling of hair being

brushed..

Jackie

> i think

kids just hate to get their hair brushed in general, and my daughter

specifically is pretty sensitive in many ways.

Tara

[Guest guest]

exactly !! this is how I do my horses manes and tails...much more messy

that any human childs hair LOL but I do it in stages, from the bottom up

Jackie

Start at the bottom of the hair and go slowly. Is she old enough to

brush her own hair yet? You can teach her the technique of starting

slowly at the bottom. If you're at least trying to be gentle and

taking it in sections...that's way more than my mom did.

[Guest guest]

oh, very much so !!

Jackie

Also, what's your attitude when you're doing it? Is it " I know honey,

I'm sorry this hurts " ? or is it " shut up you big whiny baby! " ? That

makes all the difference...I hope that helps you feel better about it!

[Guest guest]

how awful !! they sure do like to inflict pain..and seem to delight in it

:-( My nada, a few years ago, told me she learned a new way to make a

headache go away. I had one, so like an idiot, I let her do it...she bent

her arm, and shoved her elbow as hard as she could between my shoulder

blades on my back !! I ended up with a nasty bruise..and man that

hurt...and I still had the headache too...

Jackie

I recently remembered this really disturbing thing that my nada and

grandmother did. Every summer vacation, they would say that I had

dirty ears and they woudl hold me down and " clean " the supposed

blackheads by popping them with a bobby pin. My father never

intervened, and neither did my aunt,t hough I noticed she never

allowed them to do it to her daughter. I remember enduring hours of

agony every night. Big tipoff for me that there was something wrong

with my grandmother, too...and yet I never thought to criticize it,

just accepted that I was " dirty " !

[Guest guest]

It's funny that you mention hating your own name. I believe Lilly made a post a

few days again where she mentioned changing her name. I've always hated my name.

I don't even use it. I go by Jae, obviously. But my original name is . I

just use the initial and spell it different lol. I've been thinking hard about

changing it when I marry. New nuclear family, new life, new " home " so to speak,

why not a new name?

Is this a common KO thing? I know it's expected that we would have problems

forming a strong, cohesive identity, since our BPDs often force us to adopt

theirs or one that makes things easier on them. I could definitely see a

relation there. I actively dislike the person that that name represents to me

and I hate hearing it or seeing it written. Anybody else?

Jae

claudine bowyer wrote:

This is where I have huge questions. I don't remember much, but having

seen

my mother with my children, she pushes them one side, slaps them, pinches

them, I am beginning to realise she probably did the same with me. I was

told by my god mother that she wouldn't pick me up when i was crying as a

baby. Very not there.

I became almost reclusive when I grew up, not having many friends, disliked

my own name intensely. Was v polite at home, even asking if I could use the

phone. I just knew I didn't want to rock the boat.

Still trying to piece it all together.

[Guest guest]

I went through a period where I hated my name too.

>

> It's funny that you mention hating your own name. I believe Lilly

made a post a few days again where she mentioned changing her name.

I've always hated my name. I don't even use it. I go by Jae,

obviously. But my original name is . I just use the initial and

spell it different lol. I've been thinking hard about changing it when

I marry. New nuclear family, new life, new " home " so to speak, why not

a new name?

>

> Is this a common KO thing? I know it's expected that we would have

problems forming a strong, cohesive identity, since our BPDs often

force us to adopt theirs or one that makes things easier on them. I

could definitely see a relation there. I actively dislike the person

that that name represents to me and I hate hearing it or seeing it

written. Anybody else?

>

> Jae