Re: AHA/Texas Soapmakers ... Angie

July 17, 2004

jeanette_ann_3@... writes:

I totally respect your choice not to use AHAs and you

...... just because someone wants to learn

about a subject doesn't mean they are going to run and

and sell it. It means they are in the process of

making an informed decision.

Angie writes:

Maybe I'm just too cautious, but it seems like there are too many other neat

products to worry about selling something that could be a potential health

risk for some people.

Greetings...

Hey, the issue is not about whether or not you use products products made with

AHAs.

I believe the issue is two fold ...

1. should a vendor be marketing and promoting a potentially hazardous ingredient

to homecrafters, and thus

2. subjecting the customer (hand crafter) to liability and possible legal action

due to patent infringement and/or customer injury?

But shouldn't a product that has AHA as an ingredient also have sunscreens in

the formula? In fact, most products that are available for consumer use at home

do have sunscreens in the formula. That would seem to be the responsible thing

to do. Yet, I don't find where Judy is selling sunscreen ingredients. HMMM...

Could this be because handcrafters typically do not have the resources ($$$) for

the research and testing required for OTC drugs, and wouldn't buy them for that

reason? No market.

Note: The sunscreen ingredient is declared as an active drug ingredient and

is listed before the listing of the cosmetic ingredients (Section 502©(1) of

the FD & C Act and 21 CFR 702.3(d)).

But, more importantly, I can't find any information advising her customers that

they should retain or at least consult with an attorney before marketing

products made with AHAs. Clearly, one should form a limited liability

corporation, (to prevent loss of personal assets in the event of a decision) as

well as $$$$ of product liability insurance. Seems like the smart thing to do

for me.

Yep, Angie..... with over 9000 cosmetic ingredients on the market, and in view

of subjecting her customers and in their customers to potential hazard, why take

the risk? (Gosh, I have a LONG LONG LIST of stuff that I want, and can't find a

reseller, sniff,sniff).

While Judy does provide good information about the FD & C labeling, she drops the

ball when it comes to advising her customer about the risk of defending patent

infringement suits, product liability or customer injury issues. Simply put,

her customers have not been given enough information to complete the process of

making an informed decision. I believe this is the point that Maurice has been

trying to make.

enough already,

Pam Ingle

July 18, 2004

In a message dated 7/17/2004 9:22:29 PM Eastern Daylight Time,

pingle@... writes:

Yep, Angie..... with over 9000 cosmetic ingredients on the market, and in

view of subjecting her customers and in their customers to potential hazard, why

take the risk? (Gosh, I have a LONG LONG LIST of stuff that I want, and can't

find a reseller, sniff,sniff).

Hi Pam and All,

Well, you pretty much summed it up for us I guess I was dancing around

the issue because I am not one that likes to point fingers at specific vendors.

Since none of us are perfect I try to give everyone the benefit of the

doubt----therefore my rather vague statements.

Angie

The Herbarie

http://www.theherbarie.com/

July 18, 2004

In a message dated 7/17/2004 9:22:29 PM Eastern Daylight Time,

pingle@... writes:

Yep, Angie..... with over 9000 cosmetic ingredients on the market, and in

view of subjecting her customers and in their customers to potential hazard, why

take the risk? (Gosh, I have a LONG LONG LIST of stuff that I want, and can't

find a reseller, sniff,sniff).

Hi Pam and All,

Well, you pretty much summed it up for us I guess I was dancing around

the issue because I am not one that likes to point fingers at specific vendors.

Since none of us are perfect I try to give everyone the benefit of the

doubt----therefore my rather vague statements.

Angie

The Herbarie

http://www.theherbarie.com/

July 18, 2004

In a message dated 7/17/2004 9:22:29 PM Eastern Daylight Time,

pingle@... writes:

Yep, Angie..... with over 9000 cosmetic ingredients on the market, and in

view of subjecting her customers and in their customers to potential hazard, why

take the risk? (Gosh, I have a LONG LONG LIST of stuff that I want, and can't

find a reseller, sniff,sniff).

Hi Pam and All,

Well, you pretty much summed it up for us I guess I was dancing around

the issue because I am not one that likes to point fingers at specific vendors.

Since none of us are perfect I try to give everyone the benefit of the

doubt----therefore my rather vague statements.

Angie

The Herbarie

http://www.theherbarie.com/

July 18, 2004

In a message dated 7/17/2004 10:32:27 PM Eastern Daylight Time,

jeanette_ann_3@... writes:

Yep, I read it. I also know that there are many

studies out there, not just this one. I also know that

some products that get the red flag and are latter

declared fine.

Jeanette,

Pam Ingle made excellent points in another post, so I won't elaborate on what

she has already said. But, I will say this, the FDA is not 'a study out

there', it is our regulatory agency and what they have to say is important...or

should be. The very point they make is that not all the info is in on the

safety of AHAs. To me, that's clearly a 'red flag' that alerts us to the

potential

risks involved in manufacturing and using AHAs. What someone---a user or

vendor---chooses to do with that information is totally up to them.

But that isn't the point. I just don't

want someone judging someone's intelligence because of

their decision to use a product.

Using the words " duh " " fool " and " stupid " in your

email comes across as judgemental. There's no need for

that.

I'm sorry I came across as judgemental....I'm probably about the least

judgemental person around---if you only knew Opinionated for

sure....crotchety

maybe, but not judgemental. Stupid and fool aren't words that I use on a

regular basis, but now that I've eased into my 50's I tend to say exactly what I

think more and more! There are probably at least 100 folks on this list that

know I will " tell it like it is " . I have lost more than one sale because I

refuse to tell a customer what he or she wants to hear...things like " is this

all

natural " , " will this cure such and such " , " will this make a perfect such and

such " . Fortunately I don't need my business to make ends meet. I am in

business because I love it and derive a great deal of satisfaction from it. I

worked for over 20 years in the health care field ---could have continued and

made

lots more money than I make now, but I chose to make a change to follow my

dreams. If I can't make a go of the business being honest, then I won't make a

go of the business--it wouldn't be worth it to me. I quite honestly got weary

of spending time and energy educating folks about health risks and benefits

only to have them do what they want to do based on other factors that they

perceive as more important. Smoking or not smoking--exercise or couch potato

(or

computer potato ---high saturated fat consumption or a balanced diet

---driving fast/no seatbelt vs wearing a seatbelt and driving the speed limit

--drinking too much vs moderate to no drinking--unprotected sex vs wearing

condoms or

abstinence........the list goes on. But after so many years, I learned to

honor those decisions. My own best friend smoked until just recently---Yay for

her quitting!! These health behaviors are all based on choices we have to

make as individuals that are influenced by so very many factors. There are

upteen different behavior change theories to demonstrate why people behave the

way

they do. So, foolish and stupid are not the correct words to use

anyway---people have their reasons for what they choose to do. You are right,

who am I to

say? It's only from my perspective that those decisions seem foolish; from

their perspective they probably seem like good, valid decisions. It seems like

I continue to do the same thing-----I guess you can take the educator out of

the system, but you can't take the educator out of the educator I basically

think it's important to weigh out the whole risk/benefit analysis to things.

So, with that, I'll leave it be.

Angie

The Herbarie

http://www.theherbarie.com/

July 18, 2004

In a message dated 7/17/2004 10:32:27 PM Eastern Daylight Time,

jeanette_ann_3@... writes:

Yep, I read it. I also know that there are many

studies out there, not just this one. I also know that

some products that get the red flag and are latter

declared fine.

Jeanette,

Pam Ingle made excellent points in another post, so I won't elaborate on what

she has already said. But, I will say this, the FDA is not 'a study out

there', it is our regulatory agency and what they have to say is important...or

should be. The very point they make is that not all the info is in on the

safety of AHAs. To me, that's clearly a 'red flag' that alerts us to the

potential

risks involved in manufacturing and using AHAs. What someone---a user or

vendor---chooses to do with that information is totally up to them.

But that isn't the point. I just don't

want someone judging someone's intelligence because of

their decision to use a product.

Using the words " duh " " fool " and " stupid " in your

email comes across as judgemental. There's no need for

that.

I'm sorry I came across as judgemental....I'm probably about the least

judgemental person around---if you only knew Opinionated for

sure....crotchety

maybe, but not judgemental. Stupid and fool aren't words that I use on a

regular basis, but now that I've eased into my 50's I tend to say exactly what I

think more and more! There are probably at least 100 folks on this list that

know I will " tell it like it is " . I have lost more than one sale because I

refuse to tell a customer what he or she wants to hear...things like " is this

all

natural " , " will this cure such and such " , " will this make a perfect such and

such " . Fortunately I don't need my business to make ends meet. I am in

business because I love it and derive a great deal of satisfaction from it. I

worked for over 20 years in the health care field ---could have continued and

made

lots more money than I make now, but I chose to make a change to follow my

dreams. If I can't make a go of the business being honest, then I won't make a

go of the business--it wouldn't be worth it to me. I quite honestly got weary

of spending time and energy educating folks about health risks and benefits

only to have them do what they want to do based on other factors that they

perceive as more important. Smoking or not smoking--exercise or couch potato

(or

computer potato ---high saturated fat consumption or a balanced diet

---driving fast/no seatbelt vs wearing a seatbelt and driving the speed limit

--drinking too much vs moderate to no drinking--unprotected sex vs wearing

condoms or

abstinence........the list goes on. But after so many years, I learned to

honor those decisions. My own best friend smoked until just recently---Yay for

her quitting!! These health behaviors are all based on choices we have to

make as individuals that are influenced by so very many factors. There are

upteen different behavior change theories to demonstrate why people behave the

way

they do. So, foolish and stupid are not the correct words to use

anyway---people have their reasons for what they choose to do. You are right,

who am I to

say? It's only from my perspective that those decisions seem foolish; from

their perspective they probably seem like good, valid decisions. It seems like

I continue to do the same thing-----I guess you can take the educator out of

the system, but you can't take the educator out of the educator I basically

think it's important to weigh out the whole risk/benefit analysis to things.

So, with that, I'll leave it be.

Angie

The Herbarie

http://www.theherbarie.com/

July 18, 2004

In a message dated 7/17/2004 10:32:27 PM Eastern Daylight Time,

jeanette_ann_3@... writes:

Yep, I read it. I also know that there are many

studies out there, not just this one. I also know that

some products that get the red flag and are latter

declared fine.

Jeanette,

Pam Ingle made excellent points in another post, so I won't elaborate on what

she has already said. But, I will say this, the FDA is not 'a study out

there', it is our regulatory agency and what they have to say is important...or

should be. The very point they make is that not all the info is in on the

safety of AHAs. To me, that's clearly a 'red flag' that alerts us to the

potential

risks involved in manufacturing and using AHAs. What someone---a user or

vendor---chooses to do with that information is totally up to them.

But that isn't the point. I just don't

want someone judging someone's intelligence because of

their decision to use a product.

Using the words " duh " " fool " and " stupid " in your

email comes across as judgemental. There's no need for

that.

I'm sorry I came across as judgemental....I'm probably about the least

judgemental person around---if you only knew Opinionated for

sure....crotchety

maybe, but not judgemental. Stupid and fool aren't words that I use on a

regular basis, but now that I've eased into my 50's I tend to say exactly what I

think more and more! There are probably at least 100 folks on this list that

know I will " tell it like it is " . I have lost more than one sale because I

refuse to tell a customer what he or she wants to hear...things like " is this

all

natural " , " will this cure such and such " , " will this make a perfect such and

such " . Fortunately I don't need my business to make ends meet. I am in

business because I love it and derive a great deal of satisfaction from it. I

worked for over 20 years in the health care field ---could have continued and

made

lots more money than I make now, but I chose to make a change to follow my

dreams. If I can't make a go of the business being honest, then I won't make a

go of the business--it wouldn't be worth it to me. I quite honestly got weary

of spending time and energy educating folks about health risks and benefits

only to have them do what they want to do based on other factors that they

perceive as more important. Smoking or not smoking--exercise or couch potato

(or

computer potato ---high saturated fat consumption or a balanced diet

---driving fast/no seatbelt vs wearing a seatbelt and driving the speed limit

--drinking too much vs moderate to no drinking--unprotected sex vs wearing

condoms or

abstinence........the list goes on. But after so many years, I learned to

honor those decisions. My own best friend smoked until just recently---Yay for

her quitting!! These health behaviors are all based on choices we have to

make as individuals that are influenced by so very many factors. There are

upteen different behavior change theories to demonstrate why people behave the

way

they do. So, foolish and stupid are not the correct words to use

anyway---people have their reasons for what they choose to do. You are right,

who am I to

say? It's only from my perspective that those decisions seem foolish; from

their perspective they probably seem like good, valid decisions. It seems like

I continue to do the same thing-----I guess you can take the educator out of

the system, but you can't take the educator out of the educator I basically

think it's important to weigh out the whole risk/benefit analysis to things.

So, with that, I'll leave it be.

Angie

The Herbarie

http://www.theherbarie.com/

July 18, 2004

>

> But, more importantly, I can't find any information advising her

customers that they should retain or at least consult with an attorney

before marketing products made with AHAs. Clearly, one should form a limited

liability corporation, (to prevent loss of personal assets in the event of a

decision) as well as $$$$ of product liability insurance. Seems like the

smart thing to do for me.

Pam, the legal entity of your company is not necessarily going to save you

if it can be proven that you broke the law. All you need do is look at the

people in the news currently that the government is prosecuting for breaking

the law. When a person does something delibertly, knowing that they may

injure other people, that can be deemed illegal and no corporate entity is

going to save you. This list has warned people of the many dangers involved

as well as the legal problems they can create for themselves. If they choose

to ignore those warnings that is their perogative. However, if they ever

find themselves defending a civil or legal action and it can be proved that

we have given them all this advanced warning, it will not bode well for

them.

Pat.

Peace, Joy, Serenity.

pat@... http://www.houseofscents.com

For quality hand-crafted Toiletries, Massage Oils, Incense and Candles.

Designed to make you look and feel great.

July 18, 2004