Soaps vs. Surfactants

[Guest guest]

In a message dated 3/18/04 11:55:58 AM Eastern Standard Time,

gfryer@... writes:

> By 'chemical surfactants,' I assume you are referring to detergents.

> These are chemically distinct from soap, and are used differently. They

> became popular as soap substitutes during the war because they are

> cheaper and faster to produce and they have remained. Most 'bath bars'

> out there are not soap, but detergent -- note name change. Commercial

> 'soaps' are generally a blend of poor quality soap made with tallow or

> other cheap oil, and detergent. Also, the naturally formed glycerin is

> removed as it gums up machinery. Additives keep the bar hard and

> prevent it from becoming runny when left in a puddle of water (which

> happens with hand-made soap.) Detergents work by surrounding oil

> molecules dispersed in water, so they are fabulous at cleaning clothes

> and dishes. Your skin has a natural oil barrier, which detergents

> effectively strip off. You then have to apply a moisturizer to get back

> to where you started.

>

Hi Gillian and All,

See what I mean? Soap vs. Surfactants is a no-win subject and there will be

no right or wrong---please keep this in mind folks. We all have our opinions

and we are entitled to them

But with all due respect to your opinion, Gillian, your comments are not

entirely factual. Surfactants make up a very large category and not all of them

are detergents or for cleansing. Within the category of cleansing surfactants,

there again is wide variability. Very few things can be stated as absolutes

Please allow me to share some information with you that you may find

interesting.

This is an abstract found in Medline:

The concept of the acid mantle of the skin: its relevance for the choice of

skin cleansers.

Schmid MH, Korting HC.

Department of Dermatology, Ludwig Maximilian University, Munich, Germany.

Whereas soap has long been the only cleansing agent, a new generation of

cleansers, the so-called synthetic detergents or syndets, has been developed

during the last decades. They offer a wide variety of formulations and are

therefore becoming more and more important for cleansing of diseased and healthy

skin.

Among the syndets, especially those with a pH of about 5.5 seem to be

relevant. In contrast to alkaline soap, they do not interfere with the cutaneous

microflora, whose composition is linked to the skin surface pH. As their

irritancy

potential might be even lower than that of soap, the benefit-to-risk ratio of

syndets appears favorable.

J Am Acad Dermatol 1988 Jan;18(1 Pt 1):62-6

This is just one study and no conclusions can be drawn from one study. If

you run a search in Medline, you'll find some other interesting findings. Most

soapmakers are passionate about their soap! Ultimately it all depends on what

one wants to use---again no right or wrong---just preference.

Angie

The Herbarie

Natural Source Ingredients for Toiletries & Cosmetics

http://www.theherbarie.com

[Guest guest]

In a message dated 3/18/04 11:55:58 AM Eastern Standard Time,

gfryer@... writes:

> By 'chemical surfactants,' I assume you are referring to detergents.

> These are chemically distinct from soap, and are used differently. They

> became popular as soap substitutes during the war because they are

> cheaper and faster to produce and they have remained. Most 'bath bars'

> out there are not soap, but detergent -- note name change. Commercial

> 'soaps' are generally a blend of poor quality soap made with tallow or

> other cheap oil, and detergent. Also, the naturally formed glycerin is

> removed as it gums up machinery. Additives keep the bar hard and

> prevent it from becoming runny when left in a puddle of water (which

> happens with hand-made soap.) Detergents work by surrounding oil

> molecules dispersed in water, so they are fabulous at cleaning clothes

> and dishes. Your skin has a natural oil barrier, which detergents

> effectively strip off. You then have to apply a moisturizer to get back

> to where you started.

>

Hi Gillian and All,

See what I mean? Soap vs. Surfactants is a no-win subject and there will be

no right or wrong---please keep this in mind folks. We all have our opinions

and we are entitled to them

But with all due respect to your opinion, Gillian, your comments are not

entirely factual. Surfactants make up a very large category and not all of them

are detergents or for cleansing. Within the category of cleansing surfactants,

there again is wide variability. Very few things can be stated as absolutes

Please allow me to share some information with you that you may find

interesting.

This is an abstract found in Medline:

The concept of the acid mantle of the skin: its relevance for the choice of

skin cleansers.

Schmid MH, Korting HC.

Department of Dermatology, Ludwig Maximilian University, Munich, Germany.

Whereas soap has long been the only cleansing agent, a new generation of

cleansers, the so-called synthetic detergents or syndets, has been developed

during the last decades. They offer a wide variety of formulations and are

therefore becoming more and more important for cleansing of diseased and healthy

skin.

Among the syndets, especially those with a pH of about 5.5 seem to be

relevant. In contrast to alkaline soap, they do not interfere with the cutaneous

microflora, whose composition is linked to the skin surface pH. As their

irritancy

potential might be even lower than that of soap, the benefit-to-risk ratio of

syndets appears favorable.

J Am Acad Dermatol 1988 Jan;18(1 Pt 1):62-6

This is just one study and no conclusions can be drawn from one study. If

you run a search in Medline, you'll find some other interesting findings. Most

soapmakers are passionate about their soap! Ultimately it all depends on what

one wants to use---again no right or wrong---just preference.

Angie

The Herbarie

Natural Source Ingredients for Toiletries & Cosmetics

http://www.theherbarie.com

[Guest guest]

Here's a study that I find interesting. Obviously they didn't have

soapmakers in their study

A comparative study of the effects on the skin of a classical bar soap and a

syndet cleansing bar in normal use conditions and in the soap chamber test.

Barel AO, Lambrecht R, Clarys P, on BM Jr, Paye M.

Laboratory of General and Biological Chemistry, Faculty of Physical Education

and Physiotherapy, Free University of Brussels, Belgium.

BACKGROUND/AIMS: The skin irritation potential of a body cleansing product is

often compared under exaggerated test conditions, although the product is

intended to be used at home with repetitive and brief contact with the skin. The

aim of this study was to determine how much patch testing is predictive of the

clinical, sub-clinical and subjective cutaneous effects of products used at

home by consumers for their normal hygienic cleansing. METHODS: A double-blind

comparative study of the normal use of an alkaline soap bar and a syndet at

home during 10 consecutive weeks was performed on two identical groups of 25

healthy female subjects. The eventual skin changes observed at different

anatomical skin sites were evaluated by clinical visual examination and by

bioengineering measurements before the start of the study and then every 2

weeks. The

objective measurements were compared with the subject's perceptions of dryness,

tightness and product irritancy during the testing. RESULTS: The bioengineering

measurements did not show any significant changes on all the anatomical skin

sites, except for a small increase in skin pH with the classical soap bar.

However, a trend appeared, showing that the alkaline soap bar is perceived by

the

subjects themselves as more of an irritant than the syndet bar. In the soap

chamber test, the bar soap showed a significantly higher irritancy than the

syndet bar. CONCLUSION: This study showed that cutaneous irritation induced by

cleansing products in patch testing is not necessarily predictive of the

irritation likely to occur in normal use conditions. Finally, a clear

relationship

could be demonstrated between the results of the soap chamber test and the

consumer perception of both cleansing bars.

The Herbarie

Natural Source Ingredients for Toiletries & Cosmetics

http://www.theherbarie.com

[Guest guest]

Here's a study that I find interesting. Obviously they didn't have

soapmakers in their study

A comparative study of the effects on the skin of a classical bar soap and a

syndet cleansing bar in normal use conditions and in the soap chamber test.

Barel AO, Lambrecht R, Clarys P, on BM Jr, Paye M.

Laboratory of General and Biological Chemistry, Faculty of Physical Education

and Physiotherapy, Free University of Brussels, Belgium.

BACKGROUND/AIMS: The skin irritation potential of a body cleansing product is

often compared under exaggerated test conditions, although the product is

intended to be used at home with repetitive and brief contact with the skin. The

aim of this study was to determine how much patch testing is predictive of the

clinical, sub-clinical and subjective cutaneous effects of products used at

home by consumers for their normal hygienic cleansing. METHODS: A double-blind

comparative study of the normal use of an alkaline soap bar and a syndet at

home during 10 consecutive weeks was performed on two identical groups of 25

healthy female subjects. The eventual skin changes observed at different

anatomical skin sites were evaluated by clinical visual examination and by

bioengineering measurements before the start of the study and then every 2

weeks. The

objective measurements were compared with the subject's perceptions of dryness,

tightness and product irritancy during the testing. RESULTS: The bioengineering

measurements did not show any significant changes on all the anatomical skin

sites, except for a small increase in skin pH with the classical soap bar.

However, a trend appeared, showing that the alkaline soap bar is perceived by

the

subjects themselves as more of an irritant than the syndet bar. In the soap

chamber test, the bar soap showed a significantly higher irritancy than the

syndet bar. CONCLUSION: This study showed that cutaneous irritation induced by

cleansing products in patch testing is not necessarily predictive of the

irritation likely to occur in normal use conditions. Finally, a clear

relationship

could be demonstrated between the results of the soap chamber test and the

consumer perception of both cleansing bars.

The Herbarie

Natural Source Ingredients for Toiletries & Cosmetics

http://www.theherbarie.com

[Guest guest]

I make CP soap almost for a living. Without going into the chemistry,

which others here are better qualified, real soap and chemical

surfactants as you use the terms, are two completely different beasts.

Soap is an alkali salt of a fatty acid -- sodium olivate (olive oil

soap), etc. It is made through a chemical reaction with oil and water

and lye (sodium or potassium hydroxide.) This is the only way to make

true soap. What you get is something that foams (surfacts), but

generally does not dry the skin because of the oils. This is simplified

of course -- different oils have different properties and lye heavy

soaps are alkaline and very drying. A properly made soap which is

properly cured should be close to neutral, although it may still be

extremely alkaline when first out of the mold. Old fashioned 'lye

soap,' a redundancy, is made with tallow and is considered to be drying

and best suited for laundry. It was all many people had, and they

certainly could not check the chemistry to determine alkalinity. The

lye they used was often derived from wood ash, so inconsistent of itself.

By 'chemical surfactants,' I assume you are referring to detergents.

These are chemically distinct from soap, and are used differently. They

became popular as soap substitutes during the war because they are

cheaper and faster to produce and they have remained. Most 'bath bars'

out there are not soap, but detergent -- note name change. Commercial

'soaps' are generally a blend of poor quality soap made with tallow or

other cheap oil, and detergent. Also, the naturally formed glycerin is

removed as it gums up machinery. Additives keep the bar hard and

prevent it from becoming runny when left in a puddle of water (which

happens with hand-made soap.) Detergents work by surrounding oil

molecules dispersed in water, so they are fabulous at cleaning clothes

and dishes. Your skin has a natural oil barrier, which detergents

effectively strip off. You then have to apply a moisturizer to get back

to where you started.

BTW, 'glycerin soaps' are generally detergents with glycerin added back,

and are not any better for you than any other commercial soap. They also

contain solvents: alcohol, added glycerin and sugar. Melt & Pour (known

as M & P) is a pre manufactured product you can buy in bulk, melt

repeatedly in the microwave, color and scent to call your own. It is

the Betty Crocker of soap, but it does allow one to be creative with

color and design without the worry of working with lye. Again, it is

not true soap, and most of us soap snobs do not consider it to be

home-made.

Your skin can take a lot, but a bad hand-made soap will peel the skin.

(Lye will eat through almost any organic material). Since there is such

a huge and unregulated cottage industry, customers have no way of

knowing good from bad. (A trick to tell lye heaviness is to lick the

soap -- if it tingles or zaps you, put it down and walk away quickly.

The saliva on your tongue will protect you from damage from a quick

lick.) In contrast, a premium super-fatted cold process soap, should

clean and leave your skin feeling moist, and ideally, you should notice

a reduced need for additional moisturizing.

Gillian Fryer

>I have a couple of questions: What are the pros and/or cons of using handmade

soap (superfatted) compared to chemical surfactants? I realize there are some

surfactants that are milder than others, but how do these compare to handmade

soap in terms of gentleness? And what about the ph of soap; I've read it's

fairly high--but from what I understand the skin is able to adjust it's ph back

to normal after a few hours. Is this true? What effect does high ph have on skin

for those few hours???

>

>Thanks,

>April

>