Re: OT: need advice

[Guest guest]

, I am not a fan of ABA therapy. The school that my son attends uses

it. I think for the most part ABA therapy is demeaning to a human being.

Some of it is good, it has good ideas but I am now leaning more to floortime

therapy. I've been reading a book called The Child With Special Needs by

Stanley Greenspan M.D.

I agree with his type of therapy that lets a child be a child while learning.

ABA is very structured but lets face it..life is not structured! I'm still

reading the book and so far I am very agreeable to this therapy. Just a

suggestion.

[Guest guest]

,

I've been here before. The bottom line is he is YOUR child who YOU KNOW

BEST. Follow your heart on what you feel he needs and you won't go wrong.

Kathy in Denver

[Guest guest]

,

Do you mind telling more about your son?

How is his receptive language (what he understands)?

How is his expressive language?

What motivates him?

Does he have eye contact?

What has not worked with him?

What is the longest amount of time the doctor has spent with him?

How often does the therapist work with him? (I should know this - but

what is a hab therapist?)

Does your child respond well to playing with you?

Does he enjoy listening to you read?

How is his attention span?

Have you observed an ABA session?

Why does the doctor think ABA will work for your son better than

floortime?

--- In @y..., " Butcher " <heatherrt2@e...>

wrote:

> I am so lost.

>

> I've got one side (Josh's developmental pediatrician) telling me

ABA is the

> way to go, I've got my hab therapist saying she wouldn't advise for

anyone

> to use ABA. She says that she knows him better than the doctor

because

> she's known longer and that she doesn't think it's right for

him.

> That it'll frustrate him and I'll lose everything we have gained up

till

> now. And that there is no 100% guarantee that ABA will work for

him and

> that I might damage him. I have my own reservations about ABA, and

want

> Greenspan to work for him, but I want to do what is right for

. My

> hab therapist

> is putting pressure on me to decide what I want, The doctor has

pretty much

> said what he thinks is best..

>

> I want to trust his doctor, but don't know what to do. He is a very

> respected autism specialist, and he even has told me that he

doesn't like

> ABA, but that he thinks it would work well with .

>

> Anyone have any good advice?

>

> ~

> SAHM to:

> Dana (3.5, NT) and (2.5, autistic, HI)

> http://www.butcherfamily.freeservers.com

[Guest guest]

Just my 2 cents. I used my version of Floortime with the boys and it

was really the best for them. I have this neurological bent as well

and when I heard of ABA, I thought eeeewwwwww! It seemed to be a very

boring and frustrating way to force someone to do something. However,

it probably depends a lot on the teacher and the child. Floortime was

a very natural thing for me to do and for them to learn. It worked

wonderfully. I have heard ABA is best for a younger person and when

the child is not verbal or has very difficult time communicating.

That wasn't our situation. I think the Floortime is wonderful.

It sounds like you really don't want to do the ABA and might want

some permission to say no. You know your child best and if you are

not completely sold on it, don't take someone else's word for it.

Especially when that someone else is also not completely sold on it.

If you try the Floortime and it just doesn't work out, you can always

try the ABA afterwards.

.

[Guest guest]

Dear ,

This is a difficult decision for EVERYONE because therapies are different

and children are different. I will tell you my experience and research,

and I know others have different stories. I'll tell you a bit about WHY we

made the decisions we made and you can decide if it fits for you...

Our son, developed normally until he was about 15-18 months.

We didn't notice anything wrong, but my mom urged us to ask our pediatrician if

he needed help. We thought he was just a late-talking second child.

Finally, to placate my mom, we took to the pediatrician, who referred us

to a developmental pediatrician, who said was " probably autistic. "

He was about 18-20 months old and had about 10 words. We enrolled him in a

Greenspan floortime-philosophied early intervention program in August of

1998. He made little progress until we started OT and a

behavioral-philosophied (ABA-type) speech program in March of 1999. His

speech increased from about 20 words to 400 words in 5 months! We

attribute it mostly to the behavioral speech program. At that point,

was still in early intervention.

I was reluctant to start ABA because of what I had heard, too. Then I

read " Let Me Hear Your Voice. " I talked to other parents who were telling

me positive things. We enrolled in an ABA program when he turned

3. His progress has been unbelievable. The things that have made the

most difference in 's life are, in order 1) GFCF diet

2) ABA 3) Behavioral Speech

4) Enzymes 5) OT. These five have had measurable, huge

results. Other things that have helped, but not as much, have been, in

order 6) Music therapy (music has been shown to have great

impact on language in autistic children), and 7) Floortime.

Now, I know there are big floortime fans out there. For , he

HAD to be able to access the ideas available in floortime before he could

benefit from it. HE NEVER would have been able to access floortime without

ABA. It gave him the ability to attend. Once he was able to attend,

he benefitted from ABA AND floortime.

There are a lot of myths about ABA, and if you let me know your specific

concerns, I might be able to answer questions and give you info. I had

heard it made kids robots and that they didn't have a chance to be kids. I

didn't like Lovaas' arrogance, and it kept me away for a long time. THE

ONLY REGRET I HAVE IS I WISH WE HAD STARTED SOONER. gets plenty of

time to be a kid. He loves his therapists and they love him, and they have

incorporated play into their sessions as he has been able to emerge into a

relationship with them. He now attends a little nursery school with

typical children with an aide 4 days/week. He has 38 hours of ABA (8 of

which used to be floortime), 90 min speech, and 2 hours OT per week. He is

speaking in sentences. When you ask him " what goes with ____, " he gives

beautiful, spontaneous answers that haven't been " drilled " into him.

He has a wonderful sense of humor. He has a long way to go, but he is

a very hard worker and we are so proud of him.

I wish so much that Greenspan would do research to back up his work,

because I know it has helped a lot of kids. ABA has a lot of research to

back up its success. For a while, we were able to have ABA and floortime

in our program. The school district now makes parents make a choice,

which I think is very unfair.

I know this is a HOT topic, and I don't want to offend anyone. But I

feel strongly that there are a few things that are worth trying to see if a

child benefits from it, because I THINK IT CAN CHANGE THEIR LIVES. ABA is

one of them...and the earlier, the better. You can always try it, and if

it doesn't seem right for your son, move on to something that is right for

him. Most of all, get all the info you can and GO WITH YOUR GUT.

People make opinions based on all sorts of information...some of it is true and

some of it is false. What does your hab specialist know about ABA?

How does she think it might " damage " him?

Do the pediatrician and hab specialist both know lots of autistic kids who

have gone through different types of therapies? NO THERAPY is 100%

guaranteed (I WISH!!!), but Lovaas' research shows that MANY (some research says

over 40%) can reach a point where they are described as " indistinguishable from

their peers " by first grade. The IQ's of autistic children has been shown

to increase with ABA and remain stable for many years...

ABA is frustrating for the child in the beginning, because they are being

taught in a way they haven't been taught before. They are reinforced for

behaviors that will help them to make contact with the world, and they have to

respond in order to obtain reinforcements. That's not a bad

thing...Actually, it's kind of how life works...

Let me know if you have any questions. I hope I haven't sounded so

opinionated that you will discount my opinion...It has just worked so well for

, and I want the best for every child...no matter what that is!

I'll be praying for you as you make the best decision for YOUR son,

, Mom to (5, autistic) and (6, NT)

[ ] OT: need

advice

I am so lost.

I've got one side (Josh's developmental pediatrician) telling me ABA is

the

way to go, I've got my hab therapist saying she wouldn't advise for

anyone

to use ABA. She says that she knows him better than the doctor

because

she's known longer and that she doesn't think it's right for

him.

That it'll frustrate him and I'll lose everything we have gained up

till

now. And that there is no 100% guarantee that ABA will work for

him and

that I might damage him. I have my own reservations about ABA,

and want

Greenspan to work for him, but I want to do what is right for

. My

hab therapist

is putting pressure on me to decide what I want, The doctor has pretty

much

said what he thinks is best..

I want to trust his doctor, but don't know what to do. He is a

very

respected autism specialist, and he even has told me that he doesn't

like

ABA, but that he thinks it would work well with .

Anyone have any good advice?

~

SAHM to:

Dana (3.5, NT) and (2.5, autistic, HI)

http://www.butcherfamily.freeservers.com

[Guest guest]

Dear ,

ABA is very structured in the beginning, but as a child develops, they have

much more freedom. Our therapists take our son on outings and teach him

how to order at a restaurant, go to the store and teach him the names of foods,

etc. There is as much flexibility as there is creativity by the

therapists...But in the beginning, the child learns skills that help him attend

to the world he is in. Life isn't structured, BUT autistic children need

structure in the beginning so the world isn't overwhelming to them...If they

have the ability to " tune into the world around them, " floortime can be more

accessible and helpful to them.

I guess I'm concerned because Greenspan appeals to something in all of us

that wants to be a mom of a normal child, because floortime, when you get down

to it, is like being a good mom. But if your child had trouble seeing or

hearing, you wouldn't object to doing things BIGGER or LOUDER to help him.

I think ABA intensifies things and breaks things down into little (discrete)

pieces so children can learn them...A good ABA therapist will transition a child

into real life...and structure won't be so necessary.

, Mom to and

Re: [ ] OT: need

advice

, I am not a fan of ABA therapy. The school that my son attends uses

it. I think for the most part ABA therapy is demeaning to a

human being.

Some of it is good, it has good ideas but I am now leaning more to

floortime

therapy. I've been reading a book called The Child With Special Needs by

Stanley Greenspan M.D.

I agree with his type of therapy that lets a child be a child while

learning.

ABA is very structured but lets face it..life is not

structured! I'm still

reading the book and so far I am very agreeable to this therapy. Just a

suggestion.

[Guest guest]

Hi -

We are on one of those " roads less traveled " . We do at home therapy with our

daughter (3.5 yo) under the instruction of a nuerodevelopmentalist. This therapy

has bits and pieces that resemble speech therapy, ot, pt, ABA, patterning, and a

few more. You decide how many hours a day you (or the teaches, relatives, hired

help) can put into it. Some parents do 4-6 hours, I do 3, some can only fit in 1

(on a good day). I have a friend using ABA for her daughter- she's been told

less than 20 hours a week doesn't help, 30-40 is best. I feel so sorry for her

child who did 9 hrs a day this summer. We do about 1/2 hour at school, then I do

several 15- 45 minutes sets throughout the day. ND believes consistancy is best,

but some is better than none. The program averages out to $100 a month- I've

heard ABA can be pretty steap. If your interested the website for my ND is

www.ican-do.net/ under links you can see other ND's and who is nearest you.

Another organization is www.NACD.org/ it has a good article on what a day of

program is like under new then the girls name- something like ? Most

professionals I've talked to haven't heard of this approach, though it goes back

to the 40's and has evolved into a very successful program. E-mail me privately

if you need more info.

Blessings-

I want to trust his doctor, but don't know what to do. He is a very

respected autism specialist, and he even has told me that he doesn't like

ABA, but that he thinks it would work well with .

Anyone have any good advice?

~

[Guest guest]

Before reading your answers, I would have advised floortime, because

it's more my style as a parent and also because you sounded reluctant

about the ABA. After reading the below, though, I would consider the

ABA. It may not end up being the best plan - and as a parent you

have the right to change your mind anytime - but I would at least do

more investigating, which it sounds like you will be doing.

You say he does best attention-wise when restricted to his high

chair, yet he does enjoy playing with you. So, it's your call on if

he'll do better with ABA where he'll be in a chair for the more

structured lessons, or floortime, where he'll usually have freedom to

move about.

With either approach, you have to be willing to implement the therapy

on your own, too, so I think YOU have to be enthusiastic about your

decision. The best way to decide is to get recommendations for

therapists and then observe them (which I know you are going to do).

If you kind of like what you see, but don't care for the therapist,

observe another one. Most people don't mind getting a second opinion

on health issues, so consider doing that for this matter, too.

Remember that either approach if done right is to be tailored to your

child's needs. You'll have to decide what his most important goals

are right now and that will help you with choosing an approach, also.

If attention is his biggest problem, then ABA might be better at

least for now. If you want to improve socialization, then perhaps

the floortime is the way to go. For language, I see benefits with

either approach and perhaps you could take parts of each to help with

language.

I don't know how much help this, but after observing and talking

more, you could post more questions/concerns and we could try to

help. I'm in a rush today, but will post more later if I think of

anything else.

> How is his receptive language (what he understands)?

Receptively he's

> about the level of a 18 mo old, give or take..

> How is his expressive language? Functionally non-verbal.. Few

words,

> mostly labels and not used in normal speech

> What motivates him? Art. Drawing, coloring, music.

> Does he have eye contact? yes, but poor

> What has not worked with him? allowing him freedom, he is

restricted to

> his high chair during OT and ST because of his tendency to wander

and do his

> own thing. During HT, she keeps on him to keep his focus, but they

have had

> to resort to the chair too for certain activities

> What is the longest amount of time the doctor has spent with

him? This

> was our first visit with him, 2 hrs.

> How often does the therapist work with him? (I should know this -

but

> what is a hab therapist?) She's in 3 hrs a day, 5 days a week,

and does

> our respite care, up to 5 hrs a week -- Hab therapists teach them

to do

> things, she backs up OT, ST, and PT therapies and works with him on

> dressing, safety awareness, ect.

> Does your child respond well to playing with you? yes, he's

affectionate

> and loving and laughs

> Does he enjoy listening to you read? no

> How is his attention span? poor unless confined in his chair

> Have you observed an ABA session? no

> Why does the doctor think ABA will work for your son better than

> floortime? Because, I'm guessing, that he'll be engaged more.

He said

> he wanted 30-40 hrs of ABA for him, so that at least 6 out of every

8 hrs

> he's engaged with something. That he's too happy being in his own

little

> world right now and we need to 'break the code'.

>

>

> ~

> SAHM to:

> Dana (3.5, NT) and (2.5, autistic, HI)

> http://www.butcherfamily.freeservers.com

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

[Guest guest]

,

I have used both Floortime and ABA with my son. Evan, who is now 5, needed

ABA to teach him to attend when he was 3 1/2. He had " gaps " in early

learning skills that were taught well in an ABA format. He had behavioral

issues that could not be addressed with Floortime (Evan has received 2 -3

hours of floortime per week since he was 2). Now that Evan attends well and

can regulate his outbursts better, Floortime has become more important in

the learning of social and emotional skills and development of imaginative

play. We do very little ABA at this point.

I shared some of your concerns regarding ABA when I was trying to figure out

how to help our son. A good ABA program fades out food or object prompts as

soon as possible and replaces it with an activity or social praise. This is

not unlike how the rest of the world works (ie.. you can watch TV after you

clean your room). I have always been drawn to Floortime because the whole

family can be involved. I know other families who have used both

approaches. Just something to think about.

Cori

Re: [ ] OT: need advice

Dear ,

ABA is very structured in the beginning, but as a child develops, they have

much more freedom. Our therapists take our son on outings and teach him

how to order at a restaurant, go to the store and teach him the names of

foods,

etc. There is as much flexibility as there is creativity by the

therapists...But in the beginning, the child learns skills that help him

attend

to the world he is in. Life isn't structured, BUT autistic children need

structure in the beginning so the world isn't overwhelming to them...If they

have the ability to " tune into the world around them, " floortime can be more

accessible and helpful to them.

I guess I'm concerned because Greenspan appeals to something in all of us

that wants to be a mom of a normal child, because floortime, when you get

down

to it, is like being a good mom. But if your child had trouble seeing or

hearing, you wouldn't object to doing things BIGGER or LOUDER to help him.

I think ABA intensifies things and breaks things down into little (discrete)

pieces so children can learn them...A good ABA therapist will transition a

child

into real life...and structure won't be so necessary.

, Mom to and

Re: [ ] OT: need

advice

, I am not a fan of ABA therapy. The school that my son attends uses

it. I think for the most part ABA therapy is demeaning to a

human being.

Some of it is good, it has good ideas but I am now leaning more to

floortime

therapy. I've been reading a book called The Child With Special Needs by

Stanley Greenspan M.D.

I agree with his type of therapy that lets a child be a child while

learning.

ABA is very structured but lets face it..life is not

structured! I'm still

reading the book and so far I am very agreeable to this therapy. Just a

suggestion.

[Guest guest]

I'd probably print it out and leave it in his mailbox. I did that to a farmer

once to tell them about PASA - they were ideally situated to change their focus

to direct marketing and sustainable agrotourism. They seem to have taken the

hint, too as now they have a CSA, direct market meat and eggs, and are shifting

more and more to grass/pasture and organic.

Speaking of that, sometimes people just need a support system - is there a

Gerson group or other support group? I'd imagine he'd like to meet people

trying it and see what they have to say.

>

> Hello folks,

>

> My husband has a job interview today with a man who will most likely die soon

from cancer. He is looking for a replacement for himself. I have the man's

e-mail address and would like to send him information under a fictitious address

and name, about the Gerson Therapy. Can I do that without being found out? He

is a computer genius.

>

> Thanks,

> Joan

>