Re: It all went wrong again...

[Guest guest]

Hallo, thanks everyone for getting back to me. I have really appreciated

reading the messages.

To update, I am still pretty blown away by it all again, and fighting to

preserve my mental wellbeing, given that extremes are a dangerous place for me

to be as my Bipolar needs calm. So my sleeping and general function has been

rather impaired, as has my confidence, along with being unable to think

straight, and keep bursting into tears.

Jon seems to think he can change. On thing is that he has made a good

connection between intending something and the actual need to do something to

achieve it. Prior to this, head in the sand and wishful thinking were his usual

domains.

It's really frustrating to go through this, as I genuinely thought we had

cracked it after a great deal of effort and a lot of communication, only for him

to then shut down on me again. And it seems he has largely forgotten everything

we covered in counselling for several months together. This indicates either he

never understood it in the first place, or at some point decided it was

unnecessary knowledge and deleted it.

The irony is that with my work in Probation, helping offenders to change and

rehabilitate, and on top of that, working as a life coach, plus the work I have

done applying all of this to myself, which does rather consolidate the text book

knowledge. I can't suggest things to Jon as he just doesn't hear them. He is

very self aware at the moment, but it just drifts away into his alternative

reality, which then rips the relationship apart, as I respond by going into

overdrive to then compensate.

Without wishing to seem dramatic, I am seriously concerned about going through

this, as I have only recently got a sensible handle on my bipolar, making me

mentally a bit vulnerable. Bipolar has the highest incidence of suicide out of

all mental health problems. Largely when people get 'mixed episodes' which is

basically depression, in addition to anxiety and feeling high energy and wired.

I get this. And Jon's behaviour/challenges/disability or whatever it is keeps

triggering it.

I have said to him, that every time he pushed my balance so far off kilter, my

risk of suicide is going up, and I am genuinely terrified that the biological

aspect will take over, and that I will get so ill that I try to kill myself. I

really am afraid, and my relatively fresh and new sanity and balance are so

precious.

Jon has gone from trying to blame me, to trying to blame everything on himself,

and go into super-intense compensative overdrive to make up for it. I keep

telling him he needs to slow down and prioritise, otherwise he's setting himself

up for failure, disillusionment and another shut down.

Prior to this last shut down, I had got my head around the potential of having a

child with AS. And I actually began to feel that we are well placed to deal

with it. There is also a risk of passing on the bipolar. But now I am really

terrified of having an asperger child. This is a gut reaction, and I really

don't want anyone to think I am having a go at those with AS. I am really

thinking that I wouldn't be able to cope, especially if Jon keeps shutting down

on me. The pressure of raising another AS person in addition to coping with Jon

is not something I feel that I am up to! I even had a mad idea of trying for a

sperm donor from and non AS person! (Yes I am that desperate to have a child

now, and again sorry, it's my biology, it's not conscious and yes, it's very

unusually strong in me, I am a survivor and part of me is highly intent on

securing my lineage. I am sure people will have plenty to disagree about that)

Not that I was going right into it, I was planning to start in about a year,

after I had got fit, sorted my stability, integrated into German life then to

look to have a child with Jon. But I really don't think I can trust him to

support me in pregnancy and further on into parenting.

We were going to start a family about 3.5-4yrs back, before we knew about the AS

or the BP, but then I had a breakdown, a massive one, so it was put off, and

only now did I feel I was well enough to even begin thinking about having a

child, and our relationship seemed to be really improving, but now, here I am

swinging around wildly, crying all the time, really wary of going out, because I

don't want to look crazy to others if they ask how I am and how is Jon,.....

Jon is seeking a diagnosis now, after being ambivalent. He understands my point

of 'knowing the shape of the beast' to be able to manage it better, the goods

and the bads of it all.

He is creating an action plan to try to stop fading out into the mists of AS.

He says he becomes lost in the AS thinking and can't work out a way to come back

to me. I have the opinion that working on his self awareness and having some

sort of checklist each day to remind him what he has said is important to him.

Please note, this is his own list, not one I am trying to enforce on him. I

have said that if he is every going to stick to anything, then the chances are

massively higher if he generates the plans and points himself. He is also

thinkg about going to see a psychiatrist or psychologist long term, to help him

manage himself better. As I pointed out to him, as time goes by and things

become easier for him, then he can reduce the frequency of seeing this person,

however it may be a life time commitment, depending on how well he does.

But, I don't want him to change who he is. But the bottom line is that I cannot

remain in a relationship where the other person is completely turned off for

months on end, as it does honestly affect my mental health, and I accept that

this is not something I can easily control, having done virtually everything I

can to manage my mental health problems - but I cannot stop Jon from turning

off, and I cannot accept feeling so utterly isolated. So either we just quit

the whole thing or he learns to show some love and make some small connections

with me, day by day.

And I have even pared it down to my essential needs: to have a genuine

conversational exchange, where Jon is actually listening, making eye contact and

reacting to what we are talking about, and this is really only about 10 mins

over dinner or something. Nothing too heavy, but the chance to share something,

perhaps laugh or commiserate.... I also need some physical affection, a smile, a

kiss, a hug or a touch each day. Nooky would be wonderful, but not essential and

not daily!!! (that's just greedy!) However it needs to be genuine, not me being

patted like the dog, which is the normal process. He does it whilst he trances

out to the tv, and I have told him so many times to just not bother, also he

strokes the same bit of skin over and over again, til it actually hurts! So I

think it's soothing him, not about connecting with me. More just part of the

routine he goes through on autopilot.

I just want a tiny bit each day, and that is enough for now, whilst we can then

collaborate to improve things as a couple.

I have said and I think he understands that making any change has to start with

an admission that change is essential, that there is a problem, and it needs

addressing. Then you have to think on it every day, and try every day. That it

doesn't just 'miraculously bestow itself on you' but that you have to practice,

and reflect on yourself, and how you are doing, and measure it, have goals.

I guess the bottom line is that whilst I can be flexible and bend around him

almost limitlessly, and pick up after him and compensate for him, actually at

the end of the day, I need him to make some effort to communicate to me, in a

way that I identify with, genuinely. I will still meet him more than half way,

and work around his AS, but he needs to give just a small something back, so

that I can continue in the relationship. If he can't do that, and I need it so

much, then well, it's just not going to work, and we should quit torturing each

other and part ways.

Any advice I can pass on to Jon re making changes, interacting in a relationship

and so on - I would be really grateful - any links, books, personal experience.

Also, any advice on trying to re-engage with the relationship, and addressing my

deep fear of being hurt again, which is making me very reticent.

Thanks again for all the messages, so far. I feel so stupid, I really thought

we were getting somewhere and actually making it work, but I have had to

realise, that I can't fix a relationship on my own. Nor can Jon. We have to

work together, I am just not sure if 'together' is the right route for either of

us, yet he protests he loves me deeply and doesn't want me to go. I have

challenged him on that and said it's prob more to do with fear of living on his

own, and taking responsiblity for himself as an adult, than really love.

Head still very much spinning.

>

> > Over the years I have cautioned members that when it gets past this point,

it's going to be very hard, if not impossible to get that feeling back, and I

can now verify this from personal experience. Eventually there will come a point

where you will no longer feel angry or sad about the repeated hurt and

abandonment. It's like your brain will simply seal itself off from those

pathways to hurt, but the downside is you will no longer be open to loving and

trusting, and running the risk of getting hit with another let-down, ever again.

>

>

> You described the phenomenon very well, Helen. This is exactly the

> place where my late husband arrived at late in our marriage. It doesn't

> matter that much of his perceived hurt and abandonment was based on

> misinterpretations of my behavior (due to neither of us knowing anything

> about AS). To him, the experience and ongoing emotional suffering was

> real and ultimately lead to his infidelity. [Then it was my turn to feel

> hurt and abandoned.]

>

>

> > Often we find that behaviors we developed as children to survive are carried

over to adulthood even when they are no longer needed. Some children learned it

was very important to " stay under the radar " and keep others happy with us, or

much pain would ensue. As adults why we felt vaguely not as worthy as others,

and vaguely unreasonable when we realized we have our own needs. We somehow felt

we must keep atoning for being less than worthy human beings, and we did this

with a lifetime of servitude and self denial that often felt like punishment.

> >

> > But eventually, Becky, it's impossible not to feel resentful about the

one-way outflow of all your energies, when nothing, nothing is coming back in to

replenish you. As time and health ebbs away, bitterness *will* creep in.

Eventually, like an abscess, it *will* burst and get spewed back all over the

people you felt with-held the basics of life from you. At that point, we don't

recognize ourselves any more and hate the person we have become. In the end,

being a martyr serves no one.

>

> Helen, you describe my late husband perfectly. Due to the circumstances

> in his family of origin, he became a poster child for codependency. He

> enabled me for many years, and the bitterness eventually took its toll.

> Once he decided that he wanted to be " codependent no'mo " , the pendulum

> swung to the other extreme and I became the enemy who could do nothing

> right. This mentality also served to justify infidelity, but that's a

> whole other topic.....

>

>

> > If your partner (or any one else you interact with) repeatedly fails to live

up to expectations, then there has to be real consequences. If you don't follow

through, you may be unwittingly enabling the other person's behaviors to

continue and thwarting their progress. They need to see " cause and effect " in

order to grow and develop as a person too and I hope that in realizing that, it

will assuage your guilt over terminating your parental role in this marriage.

>

>

> This was the very advice that my late husband eventually was able to

> embrace and act upon. Although not without a huge amount of

> self-loathing and guilt (and we all know where that lead).

>

> Best,

> ~CJ

>

> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

> No matter how many mistakes you make or how slow you progress,

> you are still way ahead of everyone who isn't trying.

>

[Guest guest]

Hi Becky,

Thank you for updating us. I was thinking about you over there alone in Germany

and hoped that you were hanging in there. Did you see the AS dad's blog link I

had posted recently? That may be of help to you and your husband. I am sure that

others will have good suggestions too and everything that Judy Barrow writes is

gold! Deb may have some suggestions too .. I haven't seen Deb here lately and I

hope things are going well for her.

My main concern is for *you.* You are a very loving, kind and giving person and

that comes through in all your posts. The message in my previous post is that

being in dysfunctional relationship can morph you into a person you won't like

or even know, and I would hate to see that happen to you.

Looking back over the years, I have come to realize that although AS can

certainly add a great layer of complication to things, so can many other things,

such as the many diverse neurobiological conditions we all have, and most

significantly, our growing up experiences.

Sometimes two people may love each other very much for the unique qualities each

one has. But they have very different temperaments and needs that unfortunately

are not complementary. This has less to do with their particular neurodiversity

and more to do with just their basic personality, and the sum total of their

life experiences to date.

If those differences are not acknowledged and dealt with in a satisfactory way,

it creates a " perfect storm " in which, eventually if one *must* assign blame,

neither partner is going to come out smelling like roses.

It's impossible to live in an emotional vacuum indefinitely without becoming

traumatized, and if this is not dealt with, finally becoming completely

embittered by the experience. At that point, there is little trust or respect

left in the relationship and you can see this in the writings of a few of the

past members we've had. Yes, they had it bad, but WOW, they are a piece of work

now, too. So sad.

You are far, far from that place and you are very self aware and you are more

than willing to do the work, but it *has* to be a concerted effort on both

parts, not just yours. It could well be that your husband is trying but his

trying won't meet your needs because what you need, he simply can not give. It's

no crime, but it means that you would each be both better off with someone else.

You are at a crossroads where you and your husband can still make or break this

marriage but I can't stress the above (and what I've said previously) enough. If

you re-read 's response, she asked you to consider a timeline. Given your

situation, I think that it is very realistic to set some goals. If the deadline

approaches and things seem to have backslid, then it's time for you to be brave

- while you can still reclaim your own life. Staying too long in something that

is sort-of-working-but-not-really has a terrible cost to everyone. I know.

cyber hugs,

Helen

[Guest guest]

> You described the phenomenon very well, Helen. This is exactly the

place where my late husband arrived at late in our marriage. It doesn't matter

that much of his perceived hurt and abandonment was based on misinterpretations

of my behavior (due to neither of us knowing anything about AS). To him, the

experience and ongoing emotional suffering was real and ultimately lead to his

infidelity. [Then it was my turn to feel hurt and abandoned.]<snipped>

CJ, I really feel your pain. I'm so very sorry about the way your ex chose to

get the " last word " in. Please be gentle with yourself!

The responsibility for the success or failure of the marriage is shared. This is

hard for some to accept. All they want to do is " fix " their partner and they

want us to tell them how to do that.

We may feel like the put-upon victim, but unless the circumstances are

extraordinary (eg. you were a child bride in a stone age culture) there is

always a way forward. We can choose .. if we have the courage. For some, they

refuse to take that step, saying, marriage vows are " sacred. " Yes, they are,

when *both* partners work every day to hold that union sacred! Otherwise, it's

just a business or co-dependent relationship and in the end, the person in the

" martyr " role will be no more " righteous " than the other.

Helen

[Guest guest]

> You described the phenomenon very well, Helen. This is exactly the

place where my late husband arrived at late in our marriage. It doesn't matter

that much of his perceived hurt and abandonment was based on misinterpretations

of my behavior (due to neither of us knowing anything about AS). To him, the

experience and ongoing emotional suffering was real and ultimately lead to his

infidelity. [Then it was my turn to feel hurt and abandoned.]<snipped>

CJ, I really feel your pain. I'm so very sorry about the way your ex chose to

get the " last word " in. Please be gentle with yourself!

The responsibility for the success or failure of the marriage is shared. This is

hard for some to accept. All they want to do is " fix " their partner and they

want us to tell them how to do that.

We may feel like the put-upon victim, but unless the circumstances are

extraordinary (eg. you were a child bride in a stone age culture) there is

always a way forward. We can choose .. if we have the courage. For some, they

refuse to take that step, saying, marriage vows are " sacred. " Yes, they are,

when *both* partners work every day to hold that union sacred! Otherwise, it's

just a business or co-dependent relationship and in the end, the person in the

" martyr " role will be no more " righteous " than the other.

Helen