Guest guest Posted June 3, 2004 Report Share Posted June 3, 2004 >> So, Emulsifying Wax NF is a self-emulsifying fatty alcohol. In theory >> and practice, you can eliminate Emulsifying Wax NF by adding the >> Cetostearyl Alcohol and Polysorbate 60 as separate ingredients. > >I thought this might be the case, but as ewax NF comes in a premixed >form, without knowing the exact % of cetostearyl and ps60 that makes >up ewax, how do you enter them as separate values? That's why I don't use Emulsifying Wax NF or other waxy substances that are called emulsifying wax. >I'm wondering..... emulsifying wax NF is always going to be the same % >of cetostearyl to ps20.... so once we know what the value of each is, >we can add it together and then come up with a HLB for it as a >combined product - yes? Wouldn't that save time when entering into >the calculator? In the HLB System, you try to match the required HLB of your butters,oils and/or waxes with an emulsifier or blend of emulsifers that have the same HLB. Calculations are used to calculate the required HLB of a mixture of butters,oils and/or waxes. And calculations are needed to calculate the HLB of a blend of emulsifiers. How much emulsifier you use is a guesstimate. And calculations are needed to calculate the HLB of a blend of emulsifiers. >BTMS is easier (I think) as is is Behentrimonium Methosulfate (and) >Cetearyl Alcohol, and I know that the one I am using contains the >cetearyl at 75% and the behentrimonium at 25% so I CAN enter those as >separate values (if of course I could find the HLB of benetrimonium, >which is proving challenging)..... then once I know how much of each I >need I can combine the quantity to come up with a % of BTMS that I >need to use. I got that right haven't I? I can then add a new >ingredient to my calculator called BTMS and enter it's HLB value. Just like Emulsifying Wax NF, the required HLB of Cetearyl Alcohol is 15.5, the theoretical HLB of Behentrimonium Methosulfate should be around 15.5. The HLB System is a formulating tool that created for nonionic emulsifiers. Behentrimonium Methosulfate is cationic. And this was confirmed with Croda: >Croda does not give an HLB value for Incroquat Behenyl TMS (BTMS >Conditioning Emulsifier) also known as (INCI Behentrimonium Methosulfate and >Cetearyl Alcohol). I asked this question a long time ago Their explanation >at that time was that this cationic self-emulsifier behaves a bit differently >and the HLB guidelines don't exactly apply. Perhaps since the exact formula >is proprietary, they don't want to share the information---I don't know. They >will give you a guestimate though of where to figure it and that is >approximately 14-15 or so. >Oh another question.... one of the documents I read on using HLB said >it is mostly used for nonionic emulsifiers, and as the BTMS is a >cationic emulsifier, does that mean my musings above are not applicable? Yep. >Ooops - another question....I want to combine a surfactant and an oil >to make a blooming bath oil that bubbles. I am guessing polysorbate >80 is the best choice.... can I use the calculator to give me an ideal >% rate of ps80 needed to emulsify the two? Based on my experiments, I find Polysorbate 85 a better choice. The amount that you need is about 25%. Maurice -------------------------------------------------------- Maurice O. Hevey Convergent Cosmetics, Inc. http://www.ConvergentCosmetics.com ------------------------------------------------------- Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted June 3, 2004 Report Share Posted June 3, 2004 >> So, Emulsifying Wax NF is a self-emulsifying fatty alcohol. In theory >> and practice, you can eliminate Emulsifying Wax NF by adding the >> Cetostearyl Alcohol and Polysorbate 60 as separate ingredients. > >I thought this might be the case, but as ewax NF comes in a premixed >form, without knowing the exact % of cetostearyl and ps60 that makes >up ewax, how do you enter them as separate values? That's why I don't use Emulsifying Wax NF or other waxy substances that are called emulsifying wax. >I'm wondering..... emulsifying wax NF is always going to be the same % >of cetostearyl to ps20.... so once we know what the value of each is, >we can add it together and then come up with a HLB for it as a >combined product - yes? Wouldn't that save time when entering into >the calculator? In the HLB System, you try to match the required HLB of your butters,oils and/or waxes with an emulsifier or blend of emulsifers that have the same HLB. Calculations are used to calculate the required HLB of a mixture of butters,oils and/or waxes. And calculations are needed to calculate the HLB of a blend of emulsifiers. How much emulsifier you use is a guesstimate. And calculations are needed to calculate the HLB of a blend of emulsifiers. >BTMS is easier (I think) as is is Behentrimonium Methosulfate (and) >Cetearyl Alcohol, and I know that the one I am using contains the >cetearyl at 75% and the behentrimonium at 25% so I CAN enter those as >separate values (if of course I could find the HLB of benetrimonium, >which is proving challenging)..... then once I know how much of each I >need I can combine the quantity to come up with a % of BTMS that I >need to use. I got that right haven't I? I can then add a new >ingredient to my calculator called BTMS and enter it's HLB value. Just like Emulsifying Wax NF, the required HLB of Cetearyl Alcohol is 15.5, the theoretical HLB of Behentrimonium Methosulfate should be around 15.5. The HLB System is a formulating tool that created for nonionic emulsifiers. Behentrimonium Methosulfate is cationic. And this was confirmed with Croda: >Croda does not give an HLB value for Incroquat Behenyl TMS (BTMS >Conditioning Emulsifier) also known as (INCI Behentrimonium Methosulfate and >Cetearyl Alcohol). I asked this question a long time ago Their explanation >at that time was that this cationic self-emulsifier behaves a bit differently >and the HLB guidelines don't exactly apply. Perhaps since the exact formula >is proprietary, they don't want to share the information---I don't know. They >will give you a guestimate though of where to figure it and that is >approximately 14-15 or so. >Oh another question.... one of the documents I read on using HLB said >it is mostly used for nonionic emulsifiers, and as the BTMS is a >cationic emulsifier, does that mean my musings above are not applicable? Yep. >Ooops - another question....I want to combine a surfactant and an oil >to make a blooming bath oil that bubbles. I am guessing polysorbate >80 is the best choice.... can I use the calculator to give me an ideal >% rate of ps80 needed to emulsify the two? Based on my experiments, I find Polysorbate 85 a better choice. The amount that you need is about 25%. Maurice -------------------------------------------------------- Maurice O. Hevey Convergent Cosmetics, Inc. http://www.ConvergentCosmetics.com ------------------------------------------------------- Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted June 3, 2004 Report Share Posted June 3, 2004 Dear Maurice, Thank you again for your patient answers. Your responses always give me material to do further research and better understand the chemistry behind what I love doing. On a personal note, I picked biology as my highschool science subject rather than chemistry - do you think it is worthwhile going back to school and taking chem again? love, Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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