Re: Re: Soaps vs. Surfactants

[Guest guest]

Hi Gillian

> Hi Angie, I already buy from you and love your stuff. I agree that some of

> the new surfactants are wonderful, especially after battling trying to make

> an acceptable liquid soap (using potassium hydroxide) that was gentle but not

> sticky. I gave up after many months of frustration.

I know you do and I'm so glad you like The Herbarie products--thankyou!

You are not the first to have given up on liquid soap altogether

>

> The problem with the initial question is that it mentioned surfactants and

> chemicals. I actually tried to steer towards a commentary on classic 'lye'

> soap vs. detergents. As for chemicals, I am through talking to anyone who

> wants a product without chemicals, as EVERYTHING is composed of chemicals,

both

> natural and synthetic. (I know no one on this list would make such a faux

> pas, but I hear it all the time...)

Bless your heart! I'm with you on this one lol!

>

> But a comparison of 'soaps' is not sufficiently specific to make a valid

> argument.

>

>

I think you make a very good point

>

>

> This is my list of ingredients for Ivory soap:

>

>

> In comparing to my INCI files, I don't see any classic soap in this.

I would call Ivory soap a syndet bar.

>

> How about Dove?

>

>

I would call Dove a combo syndet/soap bar.

>

> I would never touch beef tallow in a body soap, it is too drying -- the

> industry uses it as a by-product of the beef industry, so it is very cheap.

As

> for Coconut oil and PKO, they are standard ingredients in CP soap for hardness

> and lather, but rarely does one use them alone. As an example, I would add

> 25-35% olive to the coconut and PKO and probably some castor or shea or

> something else that is rich and distinctive (not going into specific

> characteristics of the oils themselves here.) All of my soaps are superfatted

5% and many

> contain goat's milk in addition.

There is no question that most homecrafters use luscious oils and butters in

their cp soap that I think are much more desirable than beef fat

>

>

> As for comparisons, I doubt the testing industry made any distinction among

> CP type soaps, and all home made soaps are not equal.

I think you are probably right---and Andree made this same point yesterday.

It would be interesting to conduct a study that breaks soap into various

categories wouldn't it?

That way a better comparison could be made between the differences. But

then, what's the point? We should use whatever we want to use.

You know....most things in life have pros and cons, including soap and

surfactants In the big picture, it's not going to matter that much which one

people choose to use or to make. Within my own family, two daughters and one

husband prefer my handmade cp soap, I prefer my body wash----we all use my

shampoo though I surely don't want to malign cp soap! I just taught my

oldest

daughter to make cp soap last month!

Hey, y'all, it's Friday and it's gorgeous here with the birds singing and the

flowers blooming! Have a wonderful weekend!

Angie

The Herbarie

Natural Source Ingredients for Toiletries & Cosmetics

http://www.theherbarie.com

[Guest guest]

Hi Gillian

> Hi Angie, I already buy from you and love your stuff. I agree that some of

> the new surfactants are wonderful, especially after battling trying to make

> an acceptable liquid soap (using potassium hydroxide) that was gentle but not

> sticky. I gave up after many months of frustration.

I know you do and I'm so glad you like The Herbarie products--thankyou!

You are not the first to have given up on liquid soap altogether

>

> The problem with the initial question is that it mentioned surfactants and

> chemicals. I actually tried to steer towards a commentary on classic 'lye'

> soap vs. detergents. As for chemicals, I am through talking to anyone who

> wants a product without chemicals, as EVERYTHING is composed of chemicals,

both

> natural and synthetic. (I know no one on this list would make such a faux

> pas, but I hear it all the time...)

Bless your heart! I'm with you on this one lol!

>

> But a comparison of 'soaps' is not sufficiently specific to make a valid

> argument.

>

>

I think you make a very good point

>

>

> This is my list of ingredients for Ivory soap:

>

>

> In comparing to my INCI files, I don't see any classic soap in this.

I would call Ivory soap a syndet bar.

>

> How about Dove?

>

>

I would call Dove a combo syndet/soap bar.

>

> I would never touch beef tallow in a body soap, it is too drying -- the

> industry uses it as a by-product of the beef industry, so it is very cheap.

As

> for Coconut oil and PKO, they are standard ingredients in CP soap for hardness

> and lather, but rarely does one use them alone. As an example, I would add

> 25-35% olive to the coconut and PKO and probably some castor or shea or

> something else that is rich and distinctive (not going into specific

> characteristics of the oils themselves here.) All of my soaps are superfatted

5% and many

> contain goat's milk in addition.

There is no question that most homecrafters use luscious oils and butters in

their cp soap that I think are much more desirable than beef fat

>

>

> As for comparisons, I doubt the testing industry made any distinction among

> CP type soaps, and all home made soaps are not equal.

I think you are probably right---and Andree made this same point yesterday.

It would be interesting to conduct a study that breaks soap into various

categories wouldn't it?

That way a better comparison could be made between the differences. But

then, what's the point? We should use whatever we want to use.

You know....most things in life have pros and cons, including soap and

surfactants In the big picture, it's not going to matter that much which one

people choose to use or to make. Within my own family, two daughters and one

husband prefer my handmade cp soap, I prefer my body wash----we all use my

shampoo though I surely don't want to malign cp soap! I just taught my

oldest

daughter to make cp soap last month!

Hey, y'all, it's Friday and it's gorgeous here with the birds singing and the

flowers blooming! Have a wonderful weekend!

Angie

The Herbarie

Natural Source Ingredients for Toiletries & Cosmetics

http://www.theherbarie.com

[Guest guest]

Hi Gillian

> Hi Angie, I already buy from you and love your stuff. I agree that some of

> the new surfactants are wonderful, especially after battling trying to make

> an acceptable liquid soap (using potassium hydroxide) that was gentle but not

> sticky. I gave up after many months of frustration.

I know you do and I'm so glad you like The Herbarie products--thankyou!

You are not the first to have given up on liquid soap altogether

>

> The problem with the initial question is that it mentioned surfactants and

> chemicals. I actually tried to steer towards a commentary on classic 'lye'

> soap vs. detergents. As for chemicals, I am through talking to anyone who

> wants a product without chemicals, as EVERYTHING is composed of chemicals,

both

> natural and synthetic. (I know no one on this list would make such a faux

> pas, but I hear it all the time...)

Bless your heart! I'm with you on this one lol!

>

> But a comparison of 'soaps' is not sufficiently specific to make a valid

> argument.

>

>

I think you make a very good point

>

>

> This is my list of ingredients for Ivory soap:

>

>

> In comparing to my INCI files, I don't see any classic soap in this.

I would call Ivory soap a syndet bar.

>

> How about Dove?

>

>

I would call Dove a combo syndet/soap bar.

>

> I would never touch beef tallow in a body soap, it is too drying -- the

> industry uses it as a by-product of the beef industry, so it is very cheap.

As

> for Coconut oil and PKO, they are standard ingredients in CP soap for hardness

> and lather, but rarely does one use them alone. As an example, I would add

> 25-35% olive to the coconut and PKO and probably some castor or shea or

> something else that is rich and distinctive (not going into specific

> characteristics of the oils themselves here.) All of my soaps are superfatted

5% and many

> contain goat's milk in addition.

There is no question that most homecrafters use luscious oils and butters in

their cp soap that I think are much more desirable than beef fat

>

>

> As for comparisons, I doubt the testing industry made any distinction among

> CP type soaps, and all home made soaps are not equal.

I think you are probably right---and Andree made this same point yesterday.

It would be interesting to conduct a study that breaks soap into various

categories wouldn't it?

That way a better comparison could be made between the differences. But

then, what's the point? We should use whatever we want to use.

You know....most things in life have pros and cons, including soap and

surfactants In the big picture, it's not going to matter that much which one

people choose to use or to make. Within my own family, two daughters and one

husband prefer my handmade cp soap, I prefer my body wash----we all use my

shampoo though I surely don't want to malign cp soap! I just taught my

oldest

daughter to make cp soap last month!

Hey, y'all, it's Friday and it's gorgeous here with the birds singing and the

flowers blooming! Have a wonderful weekend!

Angie

The Herbarie

Natural Source Ingredients for Toiletries & Cosmetics

http://www.theherbarie.com

[Guest guest]

In a message dated 3/19/2004 9:05:17 AM Central Standard Time,

gfryer@... writes:

> As for Coconut oil and PKO, they are standard ingredients in CP soap for

> hardness and lather, but rarely does one use them alone. As an example, I

> would add 25-35% olive to the coconut and PKO and probably some castor or shea

or

> something else that is rich and distinctive (not going into specific

> characteristics of the oils themselves here.) All of my soaps are superfatted

5%

> and many contain goat's milk in addition.

Please don't construe this as a soapmaking message as much as it is intended

to contribute to the soap vs surfactant discussion ... in discussing comparing

the " classic " soaps, your dove / ivory ingredients and this soap-oils

sampling is very relevant. However, to be fair to the discussion of mildness,

here's

my take ...

To only add around 35% olive with some castor or shea (guessing at about 3%

castor and 5% shea), you'd still have 57% coconut / pko ... NOT mild, NOT

comparible to the gentle surfactants ... the presumption that it is comparible

is

what understandably has the pro-surfactant people thinking the soapers are " all

wet, " because that combo has no rinse-off assisting oils, is too defatting,

and the little bit of olive, castor, and shea don't do as much toward mildness

and conditioning as the surfactants ...

Make a milder, more conditioning BASIC soap within the following guidelines

and then compare with the surfactants:

maximum 35% coconut / pko

around 10% sunflower, safflower, or avocado

between 2% and 5% castor

olive for the rest

Superfat at 6% -

Further, pay attention to formulating with similar water phases ... if you

use distilled water for soap, that's what you'll use for the surfactant

experiment ... if you use aloe juice, use it in both ... and for a true

comparative,

don't get fancy with either of these with additives, make both very basic.

In the above soap guidelines, you'll have enough hardness, you'll have a way

milder, less defatting soap, you'll have enough lather, you'll have enough

rinseoff in soft water (which, to be fair in finding a personal preference, soft

water should be used to compare both) ... you'll get clean ...

IMO, this compares more favorably to the true action of both groups. The

less-mild soaps (by the above guidelines) only compare to the less-mild

surfactants, which are not the big question ... the mild surfactants are way

more

gentle than these defatting soaps. Sensitive skin is what I have ... and the

defatting soap irritates it as much as surfactants. Occassionally, I've used a

surfactant product that does not, but neither do my more-mild soaps.

-