Guest guest Posted October 8, 2001 Report Share Posted October 8, 2001 Could somebody explain why and how EPSOM salt bathes have anything to do with reducing the phenols in the body? I started EPSOM salt bathes yesterday and would not know if it is effective or not. Also, the recommended dose was 375 g of salts to a tub of water, which I only added half of. Do you know anything about the amount to be used? Elvira Australia *********************************************************** The information contained in this e-mail message and any attached files is confidential information. If you are not the intended recipient, any use, reliance, dissemination, disclosure, or copying of this e-mail or any part of this e-mail or attached files is unauthorised. If you have received this e-mail in error, please notify us immediately by reply e-mail to sender and delete all copies. It is your responsibility to scan this communication and any files attached for computer viruses and other defects. Visy Industries Holdings Pty Ltd and its related bodies corporate ( " Visy " ) do not warrant, represent, or guarantee the accuracy or completeness of any information contained in this e-mail or attached files. Visy does not accept liability for any loss or damage (whether direct, indirect, consequential or economic) however caused, and whether directly or indirectly from this e-mail or any attached files. *********************************************************** Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted October 8, 2001 Report Share Posted October 8, 2001 --- In @y..., " Elvira Kurti " <elvira.kurti@v...> wrote: > Could somebody explain why and how EPSOM salt bathes have anything to do > with > reducing the phenols in the body? I believe it is the magnesium interacting with sulphur, which is the PST issue. Here is more information http://home.pacbell.net/cscomp/phenol.htm > > I started EPSOM salt bathes yesterday and would not know if it is > effective or > not. Also, the recommended dose was 375 g of salts to a tub of water, > which I > only added half of. Do you know anything about the amount to be used? I cannot convert this to metric, but it is recommended 2 cups of epsom salts in as warm water as safe for the child, and then soak for about 20 minutes. Dana Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted October 31, 2001 Report Share Posted October 31, 2001 I use ~180 g per bath. This is half the recommended amount. It may not be enough, I don't know. He has an Epsom Salt bath every other day for approx 15 minutes. It costs us AUS$2.11 (approx US$4.50) per 375g box. I can get a kilo version but I do not remember the price and it was not available last time. Talking about prices, I got a box of magnesium/calcium the ionised easily absorbed version, very clean but it cost me over $40 (~US$80) in the health food shop. It has apple cider extract something removed from it for taste. It actually testes a bit similar to bicarb soda. It will be enough for quite a while, but still too expansive. Plus, I parked my car in front of the health food store, half hanging into the no parking zone, and bang. 7 minutes in the store, AUS$100 parking fine on the car. I could not believe it. They are very efficient with the fines here, I should have known better. I am still unsure how the Epsom salt bath works. I'd like to know. I heard somewhere that it goes through the skin but my naturopath says that it draws toxins out of the body. Since using it, I notice red bumpy rashes on my son. He develops one or a few of these, they look like mosquito bites but they are not. Itchy. They heal in 5-6 days. I do not know if it is related to Epsom Salts, but that was the only new thing at the time of them appearing the first time. Could they be due to the toxins that are drawn out? Although he had a cold around that time too and he still has a cough. It got worse since the pep trial, it is a bit like asthmatic, but he does not have asthma. Evaluation of everything is very complex. Cause an effect, yes, but in what order and magnitude and with what delay? So we do not only become a 'doctor' and 'nurse' but also have to become a 'scientist' and find, process and analyse data. Wow. I may end up publishing correlation diagrams and mean calculations. I have a gutt feel, outside of science LOL, that the Pep may MAGNIFY phenol issues. At least at the beginning. Elvira Australia *********************************************************** The information contained in this e-mail message and any attached files is confidential information. If you are not the intended recipient, any use, reliance, dissemination, disclosure, or copying of this e-mail or any part of this e-mail or attached files is unauthorised. If you have received this e-mail in error, please notify us immediately by reply e-mail to sender and delete all copies. It is your responsibility to scan this communication and any files attached for computer viruses and other defects. Visy Industries Holdings Pty Ltd and its related bodies corporate ( " Visy " ) do not warrant, represent, or guarantee the accuracy or completeness of any information contained in this e-mail or attached files. Visy does not accept liability for any loss or damage (whether direct, indirect, consequential or economic) however caused, and whether directly or indirectly from this e-mail or any attached files. *********************************************************** Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted October 31, 2001 Report Share Posted October 31, 2001 what does the epson salt bath do? --- Elvira Kurti <elvira.kurti@...> wrote: > I use ~180 g per bath. This is half the recommended > amount. It may not > be > enough, I don't know. He has an Epsom Salt bath > every other day for > approx 15 > minutes. > > It costs us AUS$2.11 (approx US$4.50) per 375g box. > I can get a kilo > version but > I do not remember the price and it was not available > last time. > > Talking about prices, I got a box of > magnesium/calcium the ionised > easily > absorbed version, very clean but it cost me over $40 > (~US$80) in the > health food > shop. It has apple cider extract something removed > from it for taste. It > actually testes a bit similar to bicarb soda. It > will be enough for > quite a > while, but still too expansive. Plus, I parked my > car in front of the > health > food store, half hanging into the no parking zone, > and bang. 7 minutes > in the > store, AUS$100 parking fine on the car. I could not > believe it. They are > very > efficient with the fines here, I should have known > better. > > I am still unsure how the Epsom salt bath works. I'd > like to know. I > heard > somewhere that it goes through the skin but my > naturopath says that it > draws > toxins out of the body. > > Since using it, I notice red bumpy rashes on my son. > He develops one or > a few of > these, they look like mosquito bites but they are > not. Itchy. They heal > in 5-6 > days. I do not know if it is related to Epsom Salts, > but that was the > only new > thing at the time of them appearing the first time. > Could they be due to > the > toxins that are drawn out? > > Although he had a cold around that time too and he > still has a cough. It > got > worse since the pep trial, it is a bit like > asthmatic, but he does not > have > asthma. > > Evaluation of everything is very complex. Cause an > effect, yes, but in > what > order and magnitude and with what delay? So we do > not only become a > 'doctor' and > 'nurse' but also have to become a 'scientist' and > find, process and > analyse > data. Wow. I may end up publishing correlation > diagrams and mean > calculations. > > I have a gutt feel, outside of science LOL, that the > Pep may MAGNIFY > phenol > issues. At least at the beginning. > > Elvira > Australia > > > *********************************************************** > The information contained in this e-mail message and > any > attached files is confidential information. > > If you are not the intended recipient, any use, > reliance, > dissemination, disclosure, or copying of this e-mail > or any > part of this e-mail or attached files is > unauthorised. > > If you have received this e-mail in error, please > notify us > immediately by reply e-mail to sender and delete all > copies. > > It is your responsibility to scan this communication > and any > files attached for computer viruses and other > defects. > > Visy Industries Holdings Pty Ltd and its related > bodies > corporate ( " Visy " ) do not warrant, represent, or > guarantee > the accuracy or completeness of any information > contained > in this e-mail or attached files. > > Visy does not accept liability for any loss or > damage > (whether direct, indirect, consequential or > economic) > however caused, and whether directly or indirectly > from > this e-mail or any attached files. > *********************************************************** > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted November 2, 2001 Report Share Posted November 2, 2001 I just want to add re: epsom salts bath. My son sometimes bites his hand (used to do it pretty reguraly when over stimulated). It left deep wound like marks on his skin. After the bath marks are not that visible as if epsom salt " healed " the wound. Mila __________________________________________________ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted April 14, 2003 Report Share Posted April 14, 2003 Hi -- I've got a write-up that Owens helped me write, and it addresses this hyper response at the very end of it. I don't think the issue is that you are not mag deficient, because it would take EXTREMELY high doses of magnesium to make one " magnesium toxic " . So it is not that at all. It has more to do with the sulfate and the cells. Here is what she had to say: Q: I gave my child an epsom salt bath, and s/he seemed more hyper and/or emotional afterwards. Is this related to the bath? Why would my child react this way instead of having the " expected " results? I think the trick here, which is important to know about, is that you need to start slowly when introducing a supplement of something for which you have been deficient a long time, and then slowly work up to more. This is because, unlike drugs, where the quantity of a dose is set by the doctor trying to obtain a blood level of something FOREIGN to the body, introducing a supplement of something the body uses every day works in a whole different way, and this can be generalized to lots of things. I'll explain why. Most chemical reactions happen inside cells after substances have crossed over the cell's outer membrane. For things cells use everyday, they have specific transporters and receptors that are expressed on the cell surface in the quantity that is appropriate to assure an appropriate supply to that cell type. Not all cells like the same quantity. When everything works right, the inside of the cell gets the appropriate quantity of what it needs of that substance. The cell wants not too much and not too little and it knows how to adjust the availability of that substance to the inside of the cell when the supply outside the cell changes. If the supply of something the body uses up every day has been low for awhile, the cell will upregulate the transporter or receptor that is specific for that substance. Upregulation means it will put more of these working molecules on the cell surface in order to increase the odds that the substance will find its receptor or transporter. When the supply has been high for a long time, the cell will also cut back the quantity of the receptor or transporter on the cell surface. Cells are very fluid like that: changing and adjusting constantly: not like a machine at all! Your car doesn't increase the gas caps when its fuel supply is low, but it doesn't have to gets its gas from the passing parade by chance and kinetics... So, if you have been deficient in sulfate for a long time, your cells would have upregulated the transporters to make much of little. All over the body, receptors that need sulfated ligands might have been upregulated as well, trying to increase their signal or supply. If you suddenly increase the quantity of sulfate that approaches the cell by several fold, you can get too intense a signal, and that can be overwhelming. That is why you should start slowly. This gives your body's cells a chance to readjust to the new level they will be seeing. We're not trying to overdo that level, but just to return it to something normal. Remember that cells are accustomed to biological rhythms that change the quantities of nutrients that cells see. This includes feeding schedules and sleep. Cells don't make these adjustments on whim or very quickly, for they know there will be long periods of time when the supply gets lower just because it has been a long time since you ate something. I would guess, for that reason, that cells tend to adjust to conditions that may continue for at least a day or two. The way this biology works gives me the suspicion that the children who get the most hyper after their first epsom salts bath or baths may be the children who have been the most deficient of this substance, and have receptors and transporters dialed WAY up. If you are deficient in supply, even when you have receptors or transporters expressed at extremely high quantity, you still might be low in quantity for the function you need. The increase of receptors or transporters will help, but it isn't much of a solution long term. If you get exposed to something that requires a lot of sulfate for your body to detoxify (like phenols in fumes or foods or drugs), the level of sulfate available for NORMAL functions will be hurting temporarily as your body tries to recover from this demand. The loss of the function of other molecules that use sulfate for normal function is likely what is producing symptoms: not your body feeling toxic as if it had just been " burned " by the substance your body was trying to detoxify. That sort of injury might take longer and it would probably be more subtle, anyway. If you are having neurological reactions, you are probably seeing an adjustment in the neurological chemistry which is feeling shorted and may be overwhelmed with sudden change. Of course, you really need an appropriate supply of sulfate, but the story of HOW the supply got low in the first place can be very different from child to child, and involve organs like the kidneys, the liver and the GI tract and systems like the immune system. Anyway, as an example of this sort of mechanism with an entirely different substance, I'll tell you a little about the secretin story. This sort of receptor-quantity issue was suspected to be happening in the children with autism who were given IV secretin. In response to the same dose that had a predictable response in normal people, those with autism instead put out huge quantities of pancreatic fluid. Their response was intense on the very same dose that other patients were getting without experiencing this overexuberant response. Why? The sudden increase in secretin was more of a surprise for the bodies of autistic children than it was for the other children with GI problems being tested. The pancreas was OVER responsive to secretin probably because this was the first good supply of secretin that it had gotten in a long time. Scientists suspected that the amount of secretin these children had been producing on their own had been low for a long time. I hope all this makes sense. Your body makes secretin, but it also makes sulfate from the amino acids cysteine and methionine. There may be a reason this isn't happening appropriately. I've heard of parents starting with as little as a teaspoon in the bathwater and working up. You can also apply the solution topically, and can control the quantity by how much surface of the skin you cover. The half-life of sulfate in the blood is 4-9 hours. At any rate, please do not interpret this [emotional/hyper reaction] to mean the epsom salts were the wrong thing...it may mean exactly the opposite! Normal people do not have any response to epsom salts baths except maybe to feel relaxed later! They don't get hyper or emotional… If you have already tried reducing the quantity of epsom salts drastically and slowly increasing the quantity, and it doesn't work to reduce this hyper or emotional response, I'd be glad to talk to you offlist about what else it might mean. Anyway, I hope this helps. You've just got to think like a cell thinks! Owens If you, or anyone else would like the entire file, just email me privately: ] maryandphilip@... W > After reading another post I remembered that last night, after I gave > my son (ASD, 2 yrs old) his first epsom salts bath, he went berserk > for about a half an hour. My husband was really rather disturbed. > But he went to bed okay and had a good night sleep (son, not > husband. well, husband too, but I'm talking about son now, ha ha), > then *seemed* more calm this morning than usual. I think I've read > here that if you get hyper after the bath, you may not be Magnesium > deficient. Can anyone shed some light on this? What might his > reaction indicate? > > Thanks. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted April 14, 2003 Report Share Posted April 14, 2003 Could this apply to any supp? I am thinking of cases where evidence and experience inicate that a supp will be helpful, but the child reacts badly when given it. In such cases, is it likely that their over-sensitised bodies took up too much at once and the early doses should have been much smaller. Thanks Steve > > After reading another post I remembered that last night, after I > gave > > my son (ASD, 2 yrs old) his first epsom salts bath, he went berserk > > for about a half an hour. My husband was really rather disturbed. > > But he went to bed okay and had a good night sleep (son, not > > husband. well, husband too, but I'm talking about son now, ha ha), > > then *seemed* more calm this morning than usual. I think I've read > > here that if you get hyper after the bath, you may not be Magnesium > > deficient. Can anyone shed some light on this? What might his > > reaction indicate? > > > > Thanks. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted April 15, 2003 Report Share Posted April 15, 2003 >>> I think I've read here that if you get hyper after the bath, you may not be Magnesium deficient. Can anyone shed some light on this? What might his reaction indicate? Detoxing too fast. Just reduce the dose of salts and start slower. One mom once said she started with just a tablespoon of salts. This can happen with anything associated with detox (including enzymes like Peptizyde and No-Fenol which help with die-off, GSE, stopping sugar all of a sudden, many other things). The Feingold diet talks about allowing for an initial detox reaction if you stop all the artificial stuff abruptly. . www.enzymestuff.com/epsomsalts.htm Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted April 15, 2003 Report Share Posted April 15, 2003 Yes it was my son who reacted SO strongly to the baths that I backed down to a teaspoon/tablespoon per WEEK or TWO WEEKS and then worked up very slowly from there. In the initial days, if I even doubled it to TWO tablespoons, I saw the negative reaction come back, or if I gave the bath more than once a week, I saw the emotional/hyperness the next day. SO this was a very long process. Meanwhile, his two year old sis who exhibited sensory symptoms and was in OT had IMMEDIATE improvement with the baths. That very first bath she was sooo happy in the tub (usually she had been fearful) and was splashing water (never done that) up into her face, and laughing (again, usually apprehensive), and then within about a month of starting her on the baths, she was dismissed from OT. So I think catching her problems early made a difference for her. But a lot of kids ARE immediate responders to the baths... more kids have this positive reaction than not. I just wanted to be sure to include that paragraph about the negative reaction so that parents understand not to stop them altogether. Sulfate is wayyyy too important to stop the baths altogether. W > > One mom once said she started with just a tablespoon of salts. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted April 15, 2003 Report Share Posted April 15, 2003 Hi All, I'm new to this group. It is really a wonderful group. I was thinking about epsom salt bath last week. I have a 4 year old boy with some sensory issues. When i thought of trying it for him, i remembered my 2 yr old typical child - who also wants to sit in bath tub with him. -Is it ok to let her be in the same bath tub at all? -And is there any time limitation, to be in the bath tub? (usually he enjoys for about 1/2 hr or less). (after seeing all your mails about the quantity, i am planning to start from <1/2 table spoon or so). Please let me know. Thanks a lot in advance! amrutha > > > > One mom once said she started with just a tablespoon of salts. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted April 15, 2003 Report Share Posted April 15, 2003 Someone recently mentioned to me that they thought that Epsom Salts from Walmart were not acceptable to use because they contain mercury. Does anyone know anything about this? Is this true? Sharon merrywbee wrote: > Yes it was my son who reacted SO strongly to the baths that I backed > down to a teaspoon/tablespoon per WEEK or TWO WEEKS and then worked > up very slowly from there. In the initial days, if I even doubled it > to TWO tablespoons, I saw the negative reaction come back, or if I > gave the bath more than once a week, I saw the emotional/hyperness > the next day. SO this was a very long process. Meanwhile, his two > year old sis who exhibited sensory symptoms and was in OT had > IMMEDIATE improvement with the baths. That very first bath she was > sooo happy in the tub (usually she had been fearful) and was > splashing water (never done that) up into her face, and laughing > (again, usually apprehensive), and then within about a month of > starting her on the baths, she was dismissed from OT. So I think > catching her problems early made a difference for her. But a lot of > kids ARE immediate responders to the baths... more kids have this > positive reaction than not. I just wanted to be sure to include that > paragraph about the negative reaction so that parents understand not > to stop them altogether. Sulfate is wayyyy too important to stop the > baths altogether. > > W > > > > > > One mom once said she started with just a tablespoon of salts. > > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted April 15, 2003 Report Share Posted April 15, 2003 You can probably start with about an eighth of a cup or a fourth of a cup. If you don't see the negative response then you could increase to a half cup. Some people use a lot more than that, but I am all for finding the " minimal " amount that you need to see the positive changes. I bathe both my kids together and we use about one fourth of a cup to one half of a cup for the two of them together. It is OK to let the typical child have the bath, too. Just keep in mind that if you dont' see any changes with the " target " child, then youmight want to increase the amount of epsom salts used, because the typical child might actually be absorbing more than their fair share. Time frame? 15 to 20 minutes in the tub should suffice. save the soaping off and shampooing for the end of the bath. Try not to let them drink the water though if they do drink a little, nothing adverse will happen. It's just that in theory, it could give them looser stool if they drink it. If you want a write-up on epsom salts, what types of behaviors to see, what is the science behind it, just email me privately maryandphilip@... W > > > > > > One mom once said she started with just a tablespoon of salts. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted April 15, 2003 Report Share Posted April 15, 2003 Hi Sharon-- mercury, in parts per million, can probably be found in most ANYTHING these days, truly. Your shampoo probably has it in ppm. The topic came up on the autism treatment board probably about a year ago, maybe on the abmd board, too, and a knowledgeable person calculated out the parts per million factors, combined with how much water is in a tub, how much epsom salt is used, and found that the resulting " danger " was nearly nil. The benefits of the magnesium and the sulfate FAR outweigh any minute particle of mercury that there would be, given that the bathtub water probably also contains a trace amt, the soap contains it, the detergent your washcloth has, etc. It isn't just the walmart epsom salts-- it is all epsom salts that contain trace amts of metals. The only advice I have is to buy your epsom salts in the " people " section of the store (the pharmacy) and not the " plant " section of the store because the packaging may have had slight crossover exposure with other plant type of products such as fertilizer residue. So the bottom line was still to go ahead and use epsom salt baths. W > Someone recently mentioned to me that they thought that Epsom Salts from Walmart were not > acceptable to use because they contain mercury. Does anyone know anything about this? Is > this true? > > Sharon > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted April 15, 2003 Report Share Posted April 15, 2003 Thank you. Sharon merrywbee wrote: > Hi Sharon-- mercury, in parts per million, can probably be found in > most ANYTHING these days, truly. Your shampoo probably has it in > ppm. The topic came up on the autism treatment board probably about a > year ago, maybe on the abmd board, too, and a knowledgeable person > calculated out the parts per million factors, combined with how much > water is in a tub, how much epsom salt is used, and found that the > resulting " danger " was nearly nil. The benefits of the magnesium and > the sulfate FAR outweigh any minute particle of mercury that there > would be, given that the bathtub water probably also contains a trace > amt, the soap contains it, the detergent your washcloth has, etc. > > It isn't just the walmart epsom salts-- it is all epsom salts that > contain trace amts of metals. The only advice I have is to buy your > epsom salts in the " people " section of the store (the pharmacy) and > not the " plant " section of the store because the packaging may have > had slight crossover exposure with other plant type of products such > as fertilizer residue. > > So the bottom line was still to go ahead and use epsom salt baths. > > W > > > > Someone recently mentioned to me that they thought that Epsom Salts > from Walmart were not > > acceptable to use because they contain mercury. Does anyone know > anything about this? Is > > this true? > > > > Sharon > > > > > > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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