Re: sympathy and detachment

[Guest guest]

Love is so highly subjective. It means different things to everyone.

To the BPD love means something to fill the ever present emptiness in

their existense. To the NPD it means adoration and obsession with

thier own self image. To either one its something they are incapable

of reciprocating to others.

A BPD will hurt you and really can get very upset if they do but its

not because they dont want to hurt you its becasue they dont want you

to leave them. That is why they get remorsefull during NC and promise

to change even admitting they were wrong. But its HOVERING and they

do that because they want you back to fill thier emptiness. Once you

are back in the enmeshment you are fair game and they dump on you for

the simple reaon you are handy.

IMHO anyone who cannot see beyond thier own universe is not capable

of loving. Love is for both, not just onesided pourpose. Perhaps i

should say that BPDS and NPDS are not *yet* emotionaly developed to

return the kind of *healthy* love others are capable of.

But lets get back to the fact we are the children and they are the

parent. We desire parents to love us unconditionaly. BPDs are not

capable of this kind of love. Thats why it hurts us. And why we

forever seek validation from others. In bad ways and good ways. I wil

never be able to relate to this but I am thinking that many KO's

still " know " thier nadas truly love them because they can empathize

that the BPD wants to love, but just doesn't know how. That is really

comendable that these individuals still have that capacity for

compassion even for BPD's which made their lives miserable.

The way i handle it detachment - there is no anger just emptiness.

C

> >

> >......

> > Even with theropy, they can only hope to modify their behavior,

> but

> > they would never be able to love us or anyone else. Not in

> them. .......-ec73

> >

>

[Guest guest]

Love is so highly subjective. It means different things to everyone.

To the BPD love means something to fill the ever present emptiness in

their existense. To the NPD it means adoration and obsession with

thier own self image. To either one its something they are incapable

of reciprocating to others.

A BPD will hurt you and really can get very upset if they do but its

not because they dont want to hurt you its becasue they dont want you

to leave them. That is why they get remorsefull during NC and promise

to change even admitting they were wrong. But its HOVERING and they

do that because they want you back to fill thier emptiness. Once you

are back in the enmeshment you are fair game and they dump on you for

the simple reaon you are handy.

IMHO anyone who cannot see beyond thier own universe is not capable

of loving. Love is for both, not just onesided pourpose. Perhaps i

should say that BPDS and NPDS are not *yet* emotionaly developed to

return the kind of *healthy* love others are capable of.

But lets get back to the fact we are the children and they are the

parent. We desire parents to love us unconditionaly. BPDs are not

capable of this kind of love. Thats why it hurts us. And why we

forever seek validation from others. In bad ways and good ways. I wil

never be able to relate to this but I am thinking that many KO's

still " know " thier nadas truly love them because they can empathize

that the BPD wants to love, but just doesn't know how. That is really

comendable that these individuals still have that capacity for

compassion even for BPD's which made their lives miserable.

The way i handle it detachment - there is no anger just emptiness.

C

> >

> >......

> > Even with theropy, they can only hope to modify their behavior,

> but

> > they would never be able to love us or anyone else. Not in

> them. .......-ec73

> >

>

[Guest guest]

BPD's have never been one to handle any amount of stress on others

parts becasue they are so stressd out themselves. You didnt mention

if you were sad and grieving over your Dad. But i bet it was painfull

to go through that and not have a real mothers support. You dont want

or need anyomre from nada and its good you detach. But please dont

detach form everyone. Its easy to let yourself get too isolated.

C

> >

> > >I must be in the minority here. Other KO's express some form of

grief

> > or sympathy about thier own aging Nadas getting sick and dying,

etc.

> > >Its comendable that you all have even an ounce of compassion for

them.

> >

> >

> > don't feel bad, Cristie, I'm in your boat...I don't hate nada, I

> don't love

> > her, I feel nothing at all..she's a stranger to me....I know many

would

> > think it's very cold of me, but as nasty as she's been to me ( and

> still

> > tries) I just detach myself from her whole being...she is 100%

toxic

> and I

> > have been poisoned long enough

> >

> > Jackie

> >

>

[Guest guest]

BPD's have never been one to handle any amount of stress on others

parts becasue they are so stressd out themselves. You didnt mention

if you were sad and grieving over your Dad. But i bet it was painfull

to go through that and not have a real mothers support. You dont want

or need anyomre from nada and its good you detach. But please dont

detach form everyone. Its easy to let yourself get too isolated.

C

> >

> > >I must be in the minority here. Other KO's express some form of

grief

> > or sympathy about thier own aging Nadas getting sick and dying,

etc.

> > >Its comendable that you all have even an ounce of compassion for

them.

> >

> >

> > don't feel bad, Cristie, I'm in your boat...I don't hate nada, I

> don't love

> > her, I feel nothing at all..she's a stranger to me....I know many

would

> > think it's very cold of me, but as nasty as she's been to me ( and

> still

> > tries) I just detach myself from her whole being...she is 100%

toxic

> and I

> > have been poisoned long enough

> >

> > Jackie

> >

>

[Guest guest]

I'd be interested to hear how other BPD parents verbally define " love " . Mine

says in a weary voice that she loves in the way she can just as we all do. Then

she says that she does not believe in love. She says she defines love as " I

mean you no harm. " She wants you to tell you that you like her - not that you

love her - because liking someone is better than loving them. Anybody else have

definitions? -

smhtrain2 wrote: ,

Just as a discussion point - I think it is possible for someone with

BPD to be able to love someone else. Many of our posters have

indicated that they know their BP parent loves them. In fact, I

think that love would be the motivation for someone with BPD to get

into therapy. There have been a few success stories with BPD - even

thought the experiences of this board are to the contrary.

Sylvia

>

>......

> Even with theropy, they can only hope to modify their behavior,

but

> they would never be able to love us or anyone else. Not in

them. .......-ec73

>

---------------------------------

Food fight? Enjoy some healthy debate

in the Yahoo! Answers Food & Drink Q & A.

[Guest guest]

I'd be interested to hear how other BPD parents verbally define " love " . Mine

says in a weary voice that she loves in the way she can just as we all do. Then

she says that she does not believe in love. She says she defines love as " I

mean you no harm. " She wants you to tell you that you like her - not that you

love her - because liking someone is better than loving them. Anybody else have

definitions? -

smhtrain2 wrote: ,

Just as a discussion point - I think it is possible for someone with

BPD to be able to love someone else. Many of our posters have

indicated that they know their BP parent loves them. In fact, I

think that love would be the motivation for someone with BPD to get

into therapy. There have been a few success stories with BPD - even

thought the experiences of this board are to the contrary.

Sylvia

>

>......

> Even with theropy, they can only hope to modify their behavior,

but

> they would never be able to love us or anyone else. Not in

them. .......-ec73

>

---------------------------------

Food fight? Enjoy some healthy debate

in the Yahoo! Answers Food & Drink Q & A.

[Guest guest]

mine would say " honey i LOOOOve you " right after she got through

reaming me out for all my falts or literally screaming mean nasty

obsenities at me. also she would say " i love you and i miss you when

you are gone because i am a MOOOTHER " she accentuates MOTHER and

beats on her breast as if to exagerate what she wants to be not what

she really is, not by a long shot. I know she doesn't miss me as a

person just cant stand to bear her own emptiness when i am not there

for her to clutch onto and abuse.

Clutch.. does anyone elses nada do them that way? Mine would right

before a big rage attack.

> >

> >......

> > Even with theropy, they can only hope to modify their behavior,

> but

> > they would never be able to love us or anyone else. Not in

> them. .......-ec73

> >

>

>

>

>

>

>

> ---------------------------------

> Food fight? Enjoy some healthy debate

> in the Yahoo! Answers Food & Drink Q & A.

>

>

[Guest guest]

mine would say " honey i LOOOOve you " right after she got through

reaming me out for all my falts or literally screaming mean nasty

obsenities at me. also she would say " i love you and i miss you when

you are gone because i am a MOOOTHER " she accentuates MOTHER and

beats on her breast as if to exagerate what she wants to be not what

she really is, not by a long shot. I know she doesn't miss me as a

person just cant stand to bear her own emptiness when i am not there

for her to clutch onto and abuse.

Clutch.. does anyone elses nada do them that way? Mine would right

before a big rage attack.

> >

> >......

> > Even with theropy, they can only hope to modify their behavior,

> but

> > they would never be able to love us or anyone else. Not in

> them. .......-ec73

> >

>

>

>

>

>

>

> ---------------------------------

> Food fight? Enjoy some healthy debate

> in the Yahoo! Answers Food & Drink Q & A.

>

>

[Guest guest]

mine would say " honey i LOOOOve you " right after she got through

reaming me out for all my falts or literally screaming mean nasty

obsenities at me. also she would say " i love you and i miss you when

you are gone because i am a MOOOTHER " she accentuates MOTHER and

beats on her breast as if to exagerate what she wants to be not what

she really is, not by a long shot. I know she doesn't miss me as a

person just cant stand to bear her own emptiness when i am not there

for her to clutch onto and abuse.

Clutch.. does anyone elses nada do them that way? Mine would right

before a big rage attack.

> >

> >......

> > Even with theropy, they can only hope to modify their behavior,

> but

> > they would never be able to love us or anyone else. Not in

> them. .......-ec73

> >

>

>

>

>

>

>

> ---------------------------------

> Food fight? Enjoy some healthy debate

> in the Yahoo! Answers Food & Drink Q & A.

>

>

[Guest guest]

>I talked to our preist at length about forgiveness in a situation

like that. he said you can forgive but never forget. Its not the same

thing as forgive and let that person do it to you all over again. I

>had his full blesssings in staying AWAY from nada, whatever it took.

Jsut like many mentally disordered the best way to handle them is to

ignore them. Just like you said - Dont submit, dont rebell. in other

>words dont react. One good thing of al this i have the ability to

imediately detach from any abusive situation just like that.

oh, exactly !! what a great priest !! The one I spoke to told me I was an

ungratful child and should thank god for parents that provided for

me...needless to say, he didn't belive me ( this was in the 1970's, and I

realize it's hard for someone not familiar with the disorder to think a

mother could possible act that way towards her child) you forgiver, but

don't forget, and don't let it happen again

Jackie

[Guest guest]

>I talked to our preist at length about forgiveness in a situation

like that. he said you can forgive but never forget. Its not the same

thing as forgive and let that person do it to you all over again. I

>had his full blesssings in staying AWAY from nada, whatever it took.

Jsut like many mentally disordered the best way to handle them is to

ignore them. Just like you said - Dont submit, dont rebell. in other

>words dont react. One good thing of al this i have the ability to

imediately detach from any abusive situation just like that.

oh, exactly !! what a great priest !! The one I spoke to told me I was an

ungratful child and should thank god for parents that provided for

me...needless to say, he didn't belive me ( this was in the 1970's, and I

realize it's hard for someone not familiar with the disorder to think a

mother could possible act that way towards her child) you forgiver, but

don't forget, and don't let it happen again

Jackie

[Guest guest]

>I talked to our preist at length about forgiveness in a situation

like that. he said you can forgive but never forget. Its not the same

thing as forgive and let that person do it to you all over again. I

>had his full blesssings in staying AWAY from nada, whatever it took.

Jsut like many mentally disordered the best way to handle them is to

ignore them. Just like you said - Dont submit, dont rebell. in other

>words dont react. One good thing of al this i have the ability to

imediately detach from any abusive situation just like that.

oh, exactly !! what a great priest !! The one I spoke to told me I was an

ungratful child and should thank god for parents that provided for

me...needless to say, he didn't belive me ( this was in the 1970's, and I

realize it's hard for someone not familiar with the disorder to think a

mother could possible act that way towards her child) you forgiver, but

don't forget, and don't let it happen again

Jackie

[Guest guest]

Christie --

I could have written your post! My mom puts extra emphasis on the

word " mother " when she's talking about it -- like she's sending a

message to us that it's a holy word. My mom shakes her fist at the

sky -- sometimes beats her chest, too. And you put it so well " as

if to exaggerate what she wants to be and not what she is. " It's

almost as if they're begging us to give some magical quality to

their mothering, instead of taking a good, reality-based look at

it. Like airbrushing the wrinkles out of a photograph, or using

that foggy lens, to hide the wrinkles.

I remember once we were talking over coffee with one of her friends,

and that friend was recounting how her stepdaughter's birth mother

was about to lose custody of the child: having druggies and

lowlifes in the house at all hours, etc.

My mother gave this (familiar) exaggerated whine as she

said " Ohhhhhh! " . When the friend went on to say that the

stepdaughter missed the mother, my mother kept up the pitiful,

mournful looks -- and said " Oh, I'll bet she misses her mother --

she wants to be with her moooooother... "

I countered with " Well, she's not much of a mother if she's putting

the child in harm's way by who she drags in to the house at all

hours. She's supposed to provide a safe home -- or she deserves to

lose her. " The friend agreed with me. She wanted to get that

stepdaughter out of there before the child was molested or worse.

Silence. My mother was caught off guard and had to admit we were

right. She turned off the whining machine.

-Kyla

> > >

> > >......

> > > Even with theropy, they can only hope to modify their

behavior,

> > but

> > > they would never be able to love us or anyone else. Not in

> > them. .......-ec73

> > >

> >

> >

> >

> >

> >

> >

> > ---------------------------------

> > Food fight? Enjoy some healthy debate

> > in the Yahoo! Answers Food & Drink Q & A.

> >

> >

[Guest guest]

>mine would say " honey i LOOOOve you " right after she got through

reaming me out for all my falts or literally screaming mean nasty

>obsenities at me. also she would say " i love you and i miss you when

you are gone because i am a MOOOTHER " she accentuates MOTHER and

beats on her breast as if to exagerate what she wants to be not what

>she really is, not by a long shot. I know she doesn't miss me as a

person just cant stand to bear her own emptiness when i am not there

>for her to clutch onto and abuse.

>Clutch.. does anyone elses nada do them that way? Mine would right

before a big rage attack.

nope, my nada never says she loves me ( or even likes me) she does use the

" because I'm your mother " manipulation thing, though...

Jackie

[Guest guest]

Sylvia,

I just recently came to the realization that my mother is BP. In

therapy however I was told to do just what you are saying. The adult

in me should protect the inner child nada abused for years. I know a

part of this is I am still at times trying to be the good daughter.

Which would be not the adult woman needing this, but my inner child

is at all levels still looking for that approval and validation nada

is not able to give me.

Even yesterday with nada my inner adult was in control, until that

one comment from nada, that hurt my inner child. One more time the

child inside of me was sitting there, feeling unvalidated and feeling

like I didn't matter. It was total though an emotional reaction.

Thank you for your insight, the place you are at is a place I am

working towards. The whole forgiveness thing, I hope I am there,

because if not, I truly think the only person I am hurting is me. I

do believe that in forgiving we learn to let go of the pain. I am

tired of hurting.

Much gratitude for your post.

Malinda

> > >

> > > I think that detachment is a good thing and I am working toward

> that

> > > goal, but I am looking to reach some kind of middle ground in

> > between

> > > where I was at the beginning of this process and where you have

> > become

> > > comfortable. I would still like to have compassion for nada as

a

> > human

> > > being, but realize that, like the homeless man asking for food

> on

> > the

> > > corner, my needs and comfort are more important to me than his

> or

> > nada's.

> > >

> > > I will not entirely discount every good thing she has done for

> me,

> > > because some of it was really her best effort at being the best

> > parent

> > > she could be. On the other hand, the abuse was and is

> unacceptable.

> > I

> > > truly wish my nada the best and if I come to the place

> emotionally

> > > that I am striving toward, if she fails, I will see it as sad,

> but

> > not

> > > devistating to my self worth as a human being.

> > >

> > > I read in one of these books somewhere that neither submission

> nor

> > > rebellion is freedom from the abusive parent. I'm not sure if

> that

> > is

> > > actually relevant here, but for me balance is the key to

freedom.

> > >

> > > Melany

> > >

> >

>

[Guest guest]

Sylvia,

I just recently came to the realization that my mother is BP. In

therapy however I was told to do just what you are saying. The adult

in me should protect the inner child nada abused for years. I know a

part of this is I am still at times trying to be the good daughter.

Which would be not the adult woman needing this, but my inner child

is at all levels still looking for that approval and validation nada

is not able to give me.

Even yesterday with nada my inner adult was in control, until that

one comment from nada, that hurt my inner child. One more time the

child inside of me was sitting there, feeling unvalidated and feeling

like I didn't matter. It was total though an emotional reaction.

Thank you for your insight, the place you are at is a place I am

working towards. The whole forgiveness thing, I hope I am there,

because if not, I truly think the only person I am hurting is me. I

do believe that in forgiving we learn to let go of the pain. I am

tired of hurting.

Much gratitude for your post.

Malinda

> > >

> > > I think that detachment is a good thing and I am working toward

> that

> > > goal, but I am looking to reach some kind of middle ground in

> > between

> > > where I was at the beginning of this process and where you have

> > become

> > > comfortable. I would still like to have compassion for nada as

a

> > human

> > > being, but realize that, like the homeless man asking for food

> on

> > the

> > > corner, my needs and comfort are more important to me than his

> or

> > nada's.

> > >

> > > I will not entirely discount every good thing she has done for

> me,

> > > because some of it was really her best effort at being the best

> > parent

> > > she could be. On the other hand, the abuse was and is

> unacceptable.

> > I

> > > truly wish my nada the best and if I come to the place

> emotionally

> > > that I am striving toward, if she fails, I will see it as sad,

> but

> > not

> > > devistating to my self worth as a human being.

> > >

> > > I read in one of these books somewhere that neither submission

> nor

> > > rebellion is freedom from the abusive parent. I'm not sure if

> that

> > is

> > > actually relevant here, but for me balance is the key to

freedom.

> > >

> > > Melany

> > >

> >

>

[Guest guest]

Sylvia,

I just recently came to the realization that my mother is BP. In

therapy however I was told to do just what you are saying. The adult

in me should protect the inner child nada abused for years. I know a

part of this is I am still at times trying to be the good daughter.

Which would be not the adult woman needing this, but my inner child

is at all levels still looking for that approval and validation nada

is not able to give me.

Even yesterday with nada my inner adult was in control, until that

one comment from nada, that hurt my inner child. One more time the

child inside of me was sitting there, feeling unvalidated and feeling

like I didn't matter. It was total though an emotional reaction.

Thank you for your insight, the place you are at is a place I am

working towards. The whole forgiveness thing, I hope I am there,

because if not, I truly think the only person I am hurting is me. I

do believe that in forgiving we learn to let go of the pain. I am

tired of hurting.

Much gratitude for your post.

Malinda

> > >

> > > I think that detachment is a good thing and I am working toward

> that

> > > goal, but I am looking to reach some kind of middle ground in

> > between

> > > where I was at the beginning of this process and where you have

> > become

> > > comfortable. I would still like to have compassion for nada as

a

> > human

> > > being, but realize that, like the homeless man asking for food

> on

> > the

> > > corner, my needs and comfort are more important to me than his

> or

> > nada's.

> > >

> > > I will not entirely discount every good thing she has done for

> me,

> > > because some of it was really her best effort at being the best

> > parent

> > > she could be. On the other hand, the abuse was and is

> unacceptable.

> > I

> > > truly wish my nada the best and if I come to the place

> emotionally

> > > that I am striving toward, if she fails, I will see it as sad,

> but

> > not

> > > devistating to my self worth as a human being.

> > >

> > > I read in one of these books somewhere that neither submission

> nor

> > > rebellion is freedom from the abusive parent. I'm not sure if

> that

> > is

> > > actually relevant here, but for me balance is the key to

freedom.

> > >

> > > Melany

> > >

> >

>

[Guest guest]

Yeah, I know my BP parent loves me in her own way. She is doing her best to get

" better " or at least stop treating ppl. like crap and being a ragging lunitic.

She is also learning to let go of her controling of us girls.

Lilly

smhtrain2 wrote:

,

Just as a discussion point - I think it is possible for someone with

BPD to be able to love someone else. Many of our posters have

indicated that they know their BP parent loves them. In fact, I

think that love would be the motivation for someone with BPD to get

into therapy. There have been a few success stories with BPD - even

thought the experiences of this board are to the contrary.

Sylvia

>

>......

> Even with theropy, they can only hope to modify their behavior,

but

> they would never be able to love us or anyone else. Not in

them. .......-ec73

>

---------------------------------

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[Guest guest]

Yeah, I know my BP parent loves me in her own way. She is doing her best to get

" better " or at least stop treating ppl. like crap and being a ragging lunitic.

She is also learning to let go of her controling of us girls.

Lilly

smhtrain2 wrote:

,

Just as a discussion point - I think it is possible for someone with

BPD to be able to love someone else. Many of our posters have

indicated that they know their BP parent loves them. In fact, I

think that love would be the motivation for someone with BPD to get

into therapy. There have been a few success stories with BPD - even

thought the experiences of this board are to the contrary.

Sylvia

>

>......

> Even with theropy, they can only hope to modify their behavior,

but

> they would never be able to love us or anyone else. Not in

them. .......-ec73

>

---------------------------------

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Let Yahoo! FareChase search your favorite travel sites to find flight and hotel

bargains.

[Guest guest]

Warning: this is a graphic post.

This topic reminds me of a dream I had years ago, before I knew about BPD. In my

dream,

nada and I were in some kind of disaster area with fire and chaos. She was naked

and her

internal organs were hanging out of her vagina. I was feeling so bad for her,

seeing my

mother in such awful distress. At the same, however, she was yelling and

screaming at me,

calling me all sorts of bad things and using whatever energy she had to attempt

to be

threatening even though it was clear she was in great physical distress. As bad

as I felt for

her, I decided in my dream to get out of the disaster area and save myself only.

I felt sorry

about the whole situation, but she was scary, and the organs hanging in between

her legs

only served to make her scarier. I've struggled for years to make sense of that

dream.

I think something inside me knew even then that in order to save myself from the

emotional torture I would have to make maybe the most difficult decision of my

life, and

that is to stop saving her. It is really so hard because I am an only child, and

she has no

one else to take care of her, at all. On top of that, she's horrible at taking

care of herself

like a normal adult because she has multiple health problems and she is

low-functioning.

As I move to detachment, it means a real possibility of her drowning without my

support.

I've held her hand through so many things, talked her out of crazy ideas and

helped

prevent her from loosing her new job due to borderline behavior. I think that

dream I had

years ago was telling me that one day I would have to make the decision to

either try to

save her from seemingly imminent danger or save myself from her, and that I

would have

to have the strength to save myself.

Melany

[Guest guest]

>thankfull that she provided??? I know nada did not provide for basic

>emitional needs. She proably could barely feed and clothe you.

my dad made good money, and they never divorced..so there was " enough " of

what was necessary..I got no extras, like my siblings got. I got to take

violin lessons because they were free and my sister had a violin, I took

piano lessons because we had a piano..I took gutair lessons because my other

sister had a guitar ( althought they ended when she moved out and took the

gutair with her...3 months of lessons LOL) when it all boiled down, I never

owned anything..I always borrowed from my siblings, who nada did buy extras

for...my siblings have a lot of stuff ( toys and what not) that are

collectors items now...I scraped what little money I could hang onto ( nada

made me have a joint banking account with her, even through high school..and

there was never more than 50-80 bucks in it, even though I always had to put

my paycheck and babysitting money in it...) and bought Gobels, Beswicks,

Hagen-Renaker model horses and dogs...which would be worth a lot now..but

then moved and left them in an attic.( or most likely sold them for pennys

at a garage sale)..she claimed she didn't know I wanted them..even though I

told her I did and that I wanted to wait until we had a house ( 3 years

after I left home) because the apartment we rented was so small...

Jackie