Re: BTMS, FlexanII, Terax hair conditioner

[Guest guest]

Angie, the Flexan II *does* work! (My fault for not making it

clear). I can notice that it removes buildup. It is working very

synergistically with the extra surfactants in the " volumizing "

formula. I highly recommend you (and others) play with it and see

what you think. Regarding your concern if it works with the

isothionates...I do not know from a chemical standpoint, but I use

it with your SCI noodles and SMC taurate, and it appears perfect. My

hair care products are at pH 4.5-5.0.

What I didn't make clear - I don't use this FlexanII volumizing

shampoo much (I should!) - I use my moisturizing shampoo instead,

which contains 2% oils, light silicones, and small amounts of 2

conditioners (your GuarSilk and either Lipro-silk or Lipro-wheat).

That is why I am having over-conditioning, I am thinking - I am just

using too many cationics over and over. I even put cationics in the

spray I use after I towel dry!

One more quick general hair care question: do adding oils to

conditioner formulas increase the " drag " of the conditioner - make

it feel more " waxy " as opposed to " silky " and spreadable? (I am

talking of the feel when you put the conditioner on the wet hair -

not referring to how the hair feels later on, after drying). I

think I may have been confusing this sensation (the dragging) and

assuming that adding more conditioners would help... and thus adding

too much conditioning, while still not improving the wet feel.

This " dragging " problem resolves itself partially when I add more

cetyl to the formula...

About buildup: when I received my samples of (Guarsilk) from the

manufacturer, much of their literature referred to studies that

shows that (GuarSilk) does not build up much at all. I think that

coincides with your experience, and possibly with mine... I did not

notice buildup increase when I varied GuarSilk amounts. I DID

notice it when I varied BTMS amounts, however, which makes sense. I

would love to know more about this, because I include GuarSilk in

both shampoos *and* conditioners, and notice that a lot of the

better hair care products from large companies do too.

Lastly, about the Italian " Terax Crema " conditioner - it seems so

very UN-exotic doesn't it? There is nothing at all spectacular

about the ingredient list. It kills me that I cannot figure out why

it works. I am guessing that the SLS has something to do with it,

and maybe even the 8 pH, but cannot figure out how.

I have enjoyed this discussion... thank you

Barbie

Sweet Scents LLC

[Guest guest]

Hi Barbie and All,

> Angie, the Flexan II *does* work! (My fault for not making it

> clear). I can notice that it removes buildup. It is working very

> synergistically with the extra surfactants in the " volumizing "

> formula. I highly recommend you (and others) play with it and see

> what you think. Regarding your concern if it works with the

> isothionates...I do not know from a chemical standpoint, but I use

> it with your SCI noodles and SMC taurate, and it appears perfect. My

> hair care products are at pH 4.5-5.0.

Good! I'm glad to know there are no apparent compatibility problems with the

SCI or SMC Taurate. I'm eager to try it.

>

> What I didn't make clear - I don't use this FlexanII volumizing

> shampoo much (I should!) - I use my moisturizing shampoo instead,

> which contains 2% oils, light silicones, and small amounts of 2

> conditioners (your GuarSilk and either Lipro-silk or Lipro-wheat).

> That is why I am having over-conditioning, I am thinking - I am just

> using too many cationics over and over. I even put cationics in the

> spray I use after I towel dry!

Maybe that's the solution Try it and see if there is any improvement.

I like using a finishing spritzer (simple solution of 95% distilled water,

dimethicone copolyol ester, hydrolyzed protein, dl panthenol, essential oil,

preservative) I don't really style my hair, but just sort of " scrunch " it to

bring out the curl, add body and shine.

>

> One more quick general hair care question: do adding oils to

> conditioner formulas increase the " drag " of the conditioner - make

> it feel more " waxy " as opposed to " silky " and spreadable? (I am

> talking of the feel when you put the conditioner on the wet hair -

> not referring to how the hair feels later on, after drying). I

> think I may have been confusing this sensation (the dragging) and

> assuming that adding more conditioners would help... and thus adding

> too much conditioning, while still not improving the wet feel.

> This " dragging " problem resolves itself partially when I add more

> cetyl to the formula...

I can guess that if you add more fatty solids to the conditioner, it could

possibly have a waxy feel. But I've seen no evidence of the fatty alcohols

being any problem. They easily wash away. I don't make my conditioner that

way,

so I can't speak from personal experience. If the BTMS is used in a formula

with low solids---say, used at 4% with mostly water---the formula will serve as

a light conditioner and will have a soft, silky afterfeel--not waxy in the

least. As more cationics are added, I've noticed a distinctly slippery feel.

This is due to the nature of the material and how it reacts to our skin and

hair. The cationics should be decreased or eliminated for those who want a

squeaky-clean feel to hair and skin. The only additional lipids I've used in

hair

care are jojoba oil, fractionated coconut oil and C12 15 alkyl benzoate

(EmEster)...or the dimethicone copolyol ester (which is a water soluble benzoate

ester attached to silicone). I've not noticed any waxy feel, but could guess if

you use jojoba or another waxy oil, then it could potentially have a waxy

feel.

>

> About buildup: when I received my samples of (Guarsilk) from the

> manufacturer, much of their literature referred to studies that

> shows that (GuarSilk) does not build up much at all. I think that

> coincides with your experience, and possibly with mine... I did not

> notice buildup increase when I varied GuarSilk amounts.

That's good. But keep in mind that not all guar hydroxypropyltrimonium

chloride is created equal But our manufacturer for The Herbarie's GuarSilk

does

in fact make this statement and I've not personally experienced or seen any

buildup. I've honestly not seen the data that demonstrates this though...the

only data I've seen says both polyquaternium 10 and guar hydroxypropyltrimonium

chloride will build up and are difficult to remove. The more damaged the

hair (negative sites), the more difficult to remove.

I DID > notice it when I varied BTMS amounts, however, which makes sense.

Croda makes this statement regarding the TMS and TMS-50: " The hydrophobicity

and deposition behavior of [TMS and TMS-50] give excellent wet combing

properties, yet allows them to condition without the build-up associated with

many

polymeric quats. "

I > would love to know more about this, because I include GuarSilk in

> both shampoos *and* conditioners, and notice that a lot of the

> better hair care products from large companies do too.

Yes. I've seen it too. All one has to do is plug the INCI name into a

search engine and lots of big names pop up. I use and sell GuarSilk because I

like

it though

>

> Lastly, about the Italian " Terax Crema " conditioner - it seems so

> very UN-exotic doesn't it? There is nothing at all spectacular

> about the ingredient list. It kills me that I cannot figure out why

> it works. I am guessing that the SLS has something to do with it,

> and maybe even the 8 pH, but cannot figure out how.

Actually, it sounds rather exotic to me I just can't think of how it

could be good for your hair! But, I've never participated in any real

scientific

studies on hair care...only read about them and conducted my own informal

experiments I'm not familiar with using an alkaline pH to swell the cuticle

for any reason other than using a colorant or perming etc. I can't really see

any other benefits. The hair volume could seem to increase with this swelling,

but it also seems like it would make the hair appear dull and also vulnerable

to damage. Sodium lauryl sulfate has been used in efforts to remove

cationic deposits, but some studies seem to say it creates additional problems.

It

seems odd they don't at least recommend using an acidic rinse to follow this

conditioner. So, I really don't know....sorry, Barbie, wish I could be more

help.

Angie

The Herbarie

Natural Source Ingredients for Toiletries & Cosmetics

http://www.theherbarie.com