Guest guest Posted February 4, 2010 Report Share Posted February 4, 2010 Hi . I have never heard of a standard ratio. I would think that there would be a point where it woud fail, but only trial and error would answer that. What are you trying to accomplish? more oil? Pat. > > I've been playing with water in oil emulsions using olivem900. Is there a standard ratio of water to oil that is typically used in w/o emulsions? I've been using about 50:50, but am wondering if I can use much less water say 20%? > cindy jones > http://www.sagescript.com > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 4, 2010 Report Share Posted February 4, 2010 Hi . I have never heard of a standard ratio. I would think that there would be a point where it woud fail, but only trial and error would answer that. What are you trying to accomplish? more oil? Pat. > > I've been playing with water in oil emulsions using olivem900. Is there a standard ratio of water to oil that is typically used in w/o emulsions? I've been using about 50:50, but am wondering if I can use much less water say 20%? > cindy jones > http://www.sagescript.com > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 5, 2010 Report Share Posted February 5, 2010 Thanks Pat. I was just trying to make a very heavy night cream and wondered how much I could load it up with oils. Still wondering about the w/o emulsifiers (like olivem900 - sorbitan olivate) and how they work best. cindy > Hi . > > I have never heard of a standard ratio. I would think that there would be a point where it woud fail, but only trial and error would answer that. What are you trying to accomplish? more oil? > > Pat. > > > > > > I've been playing with water in oil emulsions using olivem900. Is there a standard ratio of water to oil that is typically used in w/o emulsions? I've been using about 50:50, but am wondering if I can use much less water say 20%? > > cindy jones > > http://www.sagescript.com > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 5, 2010 Report Share Posted February 5, 2010 Thanks Pat. I was just trying to make a very heavy night cream and wondered how much I could load it up with oils. Still wondering about the w/o emulsifiers (like olivem900 - sorbitan olivate) and how they work best. cindy > Hi . > > I have never heard of a standard ratio. I would think that there would be a point where it woud fail, but only trial and error would answer that. What are you trying to accomplish? more oil? > > Pat. > > > > > > I've been playing with water in oil emulsions using olivem900. Is there a standard ratio of water to oil that is typically used in w/o emulsions? I've been using about 50:50, but am wondering if I can use much less water say 20%? > > cindy jones > > http://www.sagescript.com > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 6, 2010 Report Share Posted February 6, 2010 you don't have to add water at all to get a cream'effect' - thinking of body butters for example. but why be against water? I am not familiar with olivem 900 - and I see it's an emulsifier.so why did you choose this product? you can use stearic acid as a thickeneryou can use starch as a thickener - I personally LOVE structure XL. BTW, Olivem 900 is to be used as a co-emulsifier. This is once again a case of no formula listed and no anticipated product description- it's pretty hard to give any advice that could even begin to be valuable. I recommend going to mfgr's site and reading their recommendations and applications.good luck - Willow Willow Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 6, 2010 Report Share Posted February 6, 2010 you don't have to add water at all to get a cream'effect' - thinking of body butters for example. but why be against water? I am not familiar with olivem 900 - and I see it's an emulsifier.so why did you choose this product? you can use stearic acid as a thickeneryou can use starch as a thickener - I personally LOVE structure XL. BTW, Olivem 900 is to be used as a co-emulsifier. This is once again a case of no formula listed and no anticipated product description- it's pretty hard to give any advice that could even begin to be valuable. I recommend going to mfgr's site and reading their recommendations and applications.good luck - Willow Willow Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 6, 2010 Report Share Posted February 6, 2010 . There doesn't seem to be a lot of info around about olivem900. I found the following on the lotioncrafters site. It looks like the maximum usage is 10%. I thought was still a member here, if she is perhaps she can supply additional info. http://www.aston-chemicals.com/chemical-products.lasso?c=89 is also a supplier although they don't have much info on their website perhaps with an email they could supply more. Of course you could experiment with the 10% and see at what point your emulsion separates. It seems a little expensive to buy in smaller quantities. Applications Day and night creams Face creams Sunscreen products Make-up: mascara, creamy foundations and eye-liners Make-up: Lipstick, lip balm, lip gloss Baby care products Lipo-gel and anhydrous products Waterproof formulations Typical usage rate: As sole emulsifier for Water-in-Oil emulsions and foundations: 5 - 7.5%, up to 10% As powder dispersant and lipogel agent: 1 - 10% As a functional lipid: 1.5 - 3% As co-emulsifer in Oil-in-Water emulsions: 1-2% As co-emulsifier in Water-in-Siicone emulsions: 2-3% Pat > > > > > > I've been playing with water in oil emulsions using olivem900. Is there a standard ratio of water to oil that is typically used in w/o emulsions? I've been using about 50:50, but am wondering if I can use much less water say 20%? > > > cindy jones > > > http://www.sagescript.com > > > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 6, 2010 Report Share Posted February 6, 2010 . There doesn't seem to be a lot of info around about olivem900. I found the following on the lotioncrafters site. It looks like the maximum usage is 10%. I thought was still a member here, if she is perhaps she can supply additional info. http://www.aston-chemicals.com/chemical-products.lasso?c=89 is also a supplier although they don't have much info on their website perhaps with an email they could supply more. Of course you could experiment with the 10% and see at what point your emulsion separates. It seems a little expensive to buy in smaller quantities. Applications Day and night creams Face creams Sunscreen products Make-up: mascara, creamy foundations and eye-liners Make-up: Lipstick, lip balm, lip gloss Baby care products Lipo-gel and anhydrous products Waterproof formulations Typical usage rate: As sole emulsifier for Water-in-Oil emulsions and foundations: 5 - 7.5%, up to 10% As powder dispersant and lipogel agent: 1 - 10% As a functional lipid: 1.5 - 3% As co-emulsifer in Oil-in-Water emulsions: 1-2% As co-emulsifier in Water-in-Siicone emulsions: 2-3% Pat > > > > > > I've been playing with water in oil emulsions using olivem900. Is there a standard ratio of water to oil that is typically used in w/o emulsions? I've been using about 50:50, but am wondering if I can use much less water say 20%? > > > cindy jones > > > http://www.sagescript.com > > > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 6, 2010 Report Share Posted February 6, 2010 Hi Pat,yes I saw that, but, Well, here's a hiccup - on another website i found thisEND BENEFITS TO CONSUMER(http://www.specialchem4cosmetics.com/tds/olivem-900/b-t-srl-biologia-te\ cnologia/6382/index.aspx) smoothness - silky feel - water-resistant/waterproof - spreading - moisturizing - long-lasting tan/color-extending - dry feeling I personally don't think I would want a waterproof nightcreamand even if Lotioncrafters says day/night cream doesn't make it so - FOR ME.so I loooked some more.... I wonder how comodogenic this could be?? I for one have a problem wearing even water proof mascara becuz it clogs my pores. This was developed for sunblock products. here is the mfgr website - pretty interesting lookinghttp://www.btcompany.com/ and their NEW website just for their producthttp://www.olivem900sp.com/ it could be the next best thing after sliced bread... but I worry about the possible clogging -it will be interesting to see how it progesses. Willow Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 6, 2010 Report Share Posted February 6, 2010 Hi Pat,yes I saw that, but, Well, here's a hiccup - on another website i found thisEND BENEFITS TO CONSUMER(http://www.specialchem4cosmetics.com/tds/olivem-900/b-t-srl-biologia-te\ cnologia/6382/index.aspx) smoothness - silky feel - water-resistant/waterproof - spreading - moisturizing - long-lasting tan/color-extending - dry feeling I personally don't think I would want a waterproof nightcreamand even if Lotioncrafters says day/night cream doesn't make it so - FOR ME.so I loooked some more.... I wonder how comodogenic this could be?? I for one have a problem wearing even water proof mascara becuz it clogs my pores. This was developed for sunblock products. here is the mfgr website - pretty interesting lookinghttp://www.btcompany.com/ and their NEW website just for their producthttp://www.olivem900sp.com/ it could be the next best thing after sliced bread... but I worry about the possible clogging -it will be interesting to see how it progesses. Willow Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 7, 2010 Report Share Posted February 7, 2010 Willow, the purpose here is that I am just trying to make a nice, heavy, water in oil cream. I chose olivem 900 because it is a water in oil emulsifier. I've searched high and low and although its easy to find advice on making a o/w emulsion I just can't seem to find info on making w/o emulsions so am just looking for general guidelines/advice on this type of cream. http://www.sagescript.com > you don't have to add water at all to get a cream'effect' - thinking of body butters for example. > but why be against water? I am not familiar with olivem 900 - and I see it's an emulsifier.so why did you choose this product? you can use stearic acid as a thickeneryou can use starch as a thickener - I personally LOVE structure XL. > BTW, Olivem 900 is to be used as a co-emulsifier. > This is once again a case of no formula listed and no anticipated product description- it's pretty hard to give any advice that could even begin to be valuable. I recommend going to mfgr's site and reading their recommendations and applications.good luck - Willow > Willow > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 7, 2010 Report Share Posted February 7, 2010 did you happen to check the files here?there may be some helpful info there with the HLB stuff regarding o/w emulsions Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 8, 2010 Report Share Posted February 8, 2010 Yes, I have checked files on all lists I am on, googled and referred to several textbooks. Most of what I find is w/o emulsion help. That is why I am asking. http://www.sagescript.com > did you happen to check the files here?there may be some helpful info there with the HLB stuff regarding o/w emulsions > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 8, 2010 Report Share Posted February 8, 2010 Hi , If I may add to the discussion. Emulsions of W/O imo are more difficult to make that is why you rarely see these done at our level. These types need careful balance of phase ratios, optimum emulsification and the viscosity of the oil phase is very important for stability. O/W emulsions are more forgiving I think. As you have found the stability issue is one of the reasons W/O emulsions aren't that popular. How much water vs oil isn't the first thing to consider, it should be how much oil can the emulsifier emulsify. I believe Olivem 900 can emulsify up to 30% oil phase for W/O emulsions. Knowing this can then help determine or at least give a starting point to determine the correct phase ratios for your particular formula. However this still doesn't guarantee stability. There is a misunderstanding I often see that W/O emulsions have high oil phases, this is not true. It isn't how much oil/water is used it is where the oil and water are held in the emulsion that determine what type of emulsion it is and how it feels on the skin. Because W/O emulsions have the oils in the continuous phase of the emulsion, this is the first sensory effect you feel..oiliness which is mistaken to be heavy in oil. But the opposite can be true, you can have a small amount of oil and still have heavy oiliness. This greatly depends on the choice of oils used e.g., polar oils vs non-polar, how occlusive you what the emulsion etc. Proper processing methods are critical for success too. The water phase is slowly incorporated into the oil phase with emulsifier using intensive stirring. Final droplet size is very important and of course like O/W the more coarsely dispersed emulsion the more likely it will separate. The pre-emulsion with its larger droplets are then typically homogenized at below 30C especially if waxes are used to insure re-crystallization of these in the emulsion. Extreme energy input with homogenization though can also cause the emulsion to break down later in storage. Olivem 900 works best ime in O/W by using some type of electrolyte in the water phase..the norm is magnesium sulfate. For reasons I don't completely understand when I use mag.sulfate in W/O emulsions they remain stable. Unless I am using Olivem 900 in O/W as a co-emulsifier I don't structure my water phase with thickeners such as HEC etc. I do structure my oil phase usually with some type of wax..this just seems to work with my formulations plus I like the barrier the wax provides on the skin. My oil phases are typically 20% with Olivem 900. If I recall I have gone as high as 27% with good results..again many variables apply here. Here is a formula from the manufacture..read down to see; http://www.quetzalquimica.com/images/dermolene28-09-2007.pdf OK hope this helps point you in a direction at least. Sharon > > Willow, the purpose here is that I am just trying to make a nice, heavy, water in oil cream. I chose olivem 900 because it is a water in oil emulsifier. I've searched high and low and although its easy to find advice on making a o/w emulsion I just can't seem to find info on making w/o emulsions so am just looking for general guidelines/advice on this type of cream. > > http://www.sagescript.com > > > you don't have to add water at all to get a cream'effect' - thinking of body butters for example. > > but why be against water? I am not familiar with olivem 900 - and I see it's an emulsifier.so why did you choose this product? you can use stearic acid as a thickeneryou can use starch as a thickener - I personally LOVE structure XL. > > BTW, Olivem 900 is to be used as a co-emulsifier. > > This is once again a case of no formula listed and no anticipated product description- it's pretty hard to give any advice that could even begin to be valuable. I recommend going to mfgr's site and reading their recommendations and applications.good luck - Willow > > Willow > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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