Re: What's that smell?

[Guest guest]

Hi Mark,

Due to problems involving email changes, I haven't been able to keep up with

list mail for several weeks, but I'll have a go at this.

If it smells rotten, LOL, it probably is, but the only way to determine for sure

is to have it tested. But it sounds like a problem of spoilage caused by

inadequate or ineffective preservation. This may be due to the way you prepare

and process your formlation, or your choice and the amounts of preservatives

used. Can you tell us a bit more about the way your processing methods? Are you

bringing your water soluble phase to170 F and holding for at least 10 minutes?

It's important to know and understand that preservatives don't necessarily

destroy harmful microbes, but rather prevent their colonization and growth.

Good manufacturing procedures are essential, as well as how the raw materials

are stored and handled.

Phenonip would be more suited to an anhydrous type formulation. Are you using

Germall Plus (powder) or Liquid Germall Plus? The amount of the liquid version

would be <+ 0.5%.

Polysorbate would only be needed to solubize the oil into the water phase so

that it doesn't separate. So this wouldn't have an affect on the way it smells.

I'd hold off on making a larger batch until you get the results you are after

with small batches.

Best wishes,

Pam

Cosmetic Formulator

www.cosmeticformulator.com

" The Ingredient Source for Cosmetic Crafters. "

What's that smell?

I make a toner (sort of) the consists of mostly hydrosols and distillates

(chamomile, cucumber and a few others).

When I put them all together, I personally don't think it's horrible

smelling, but some people have a hard time with the strong smell of

Chamomile. So I've been working a little with frangrance oils and

added them to the mix. There is also about 1% alcohol and 1%

fragrance oil.

It smells ok for about a week, then it starts to smell a little

weired. Almost like a fugus smell but not horrible. I've used Germall

Plus and Phenonip at 1% in different batches, but the same result so I

don't think it's fugus.

All the ingredients smell fresh when I mix them. In other words, I

know what they smell like fresh or even after a couple days, but there

is a difference in the smell after a week or two.

Any guesses on what the smell could be? It's not that bad but as I

said, it gets worse as the product gets older unless it stays

refrigerated. Could it be the oils?

My next batch I'm going to use a little polysorbate 80 and propolyne

glycol but I have to make a huge batch so wanted some imput.

Thanks in advance.

Mark

[Guest guest]

Thanks Pam -

To answer your questions, no I don't heat the the formulation at all.

Didn't even think about it but thanks for the heads up as I can see

where that might be important. However, as I mentioned, none of the

ingredients smell bad by themselves.

It doesn't smell rotten per se. Smells are very complicated relate

over the internet but it kind of smells like the cumber and

Chamommile when left to mix together, take on the smell of feet. Not

dirty gross feet, just clean feet. Which have a smell. Chamomile kind

of smells like feet to begin with. Not rotten though. It doesn't have

a sulfer garbage or rotting smell by any means.

Anyway, I add the fragrances and it smells great and masks the

chamomile smell but after a couple weeks even if I shake the product

every day, the smell of the fragrance oils goes away.

From your post,using Phenonip is the wrong preservative since this is

a 99% water based product with the exception of the fragrance oils.

I use Liquid Germall Plus and in this formulation at 1%. Still smells

the same.

My first deduction was, I got used to the good smell with the

fragrances, then after a week when the fragrances went away and it

took on it's natural scent which makes it not smell very good. I used

to use camocare products and they smelled the same way. Like Chamomile

which smells like feet. so does warm cucumber.

I'm testing some poly 80 right how with fragerance oils in water and

it seems to be keeping the smell which is why I was going to put a

little in. I also thought propylene glycol could help in dispertion of

the oils as well as penetration of the actives.

IN a nutshell, I don't think i'm trying to hide the smell of a rancid

product, just that certain things smell rancid to some people (just

like cilantro tastes like soap to some people and truffles taste like

gasoline to some people) so I'm trying to balance the smell.

I think my problem is, the fragrance oil smells go away. I don't know

where they go, but I've used oils from 4 different sources and I get

the same result.

Thanks again for being a wealth of information.

Mark

>

> Hi Mark,

> Due to problems involving email changes, I haven't been able to keep

up with list mail for several weeks, but I'll have a go at this.

>

> If it smells rotten, LOL, it probably is, but the only way to

determine for sure is to have it tested. But it sounds like a problem

of spoilage caused by inadequate or ineffective preservation. This may

be due to the way you prepare and process your formlation, or your

choice and the amounts of preservatives used. Can you tell us a bit

more about the way your processing methods? Are you bringing your

water soluble phase to170 F and holding for at least 10 minutes? It's

important to know and understand that preservatives don't necessarily

destroy harmful microbes, but rather prevent their colonization and

growth. Good manufacturing procedures are essential, as well as how

the raw materials are stored and handled.

>

> Phenonip would be more suited to an anhydrous type formulation. Are

you using Germall Plus (powder) or Liquid Germall Plus? The amount of

the liquid version would be <+ 0.5%.

>

> Polysorbate would only be needed to solubize the oil into the water

phase so that it doesn't separate. So this wouldn't have an affect on

the way it smells. I'd hold off on making a larger batch until you

get the results you are after with small batches.

>

> Best wishes,

> Pam

> Cosmetic Formulator

> www.cosmeticformulator.com

> " The Ingredient Source for Cosmetic Crafters. "

> What's that smell?

>

>

> I make a toner (sort of) the consists of mostly hydrosols and

distillates

> (chamomile, cucumber and a few others).

>

> When I put them all together, I personally don't think it's horrible

> smelling, but some people have a hard time with the strong smell of

> Chamomile. So I've been working a little with frangrance oils and

> added them to the mix. There is also about 1% alcohol and 1%

> fragrance oil.

>

> It smells ok for about a week, then it starts to smell a little

> weired. Almost like a fugus smell but not horrible. I've used Germall

> Plus and Phenonip at 1% in different batches, but the same result so I

> don't think it's fugus.

>

> All the ingredients smell fresh when I mix them. In other words, I

> know what they smell like fresh or even after a couple days, but there

> is a difference in the smell after a week or two.

>

> Any guesses on what the smell could be? It's not that bad but as I

> said, it gets worse as the product gets older unless it stays

> refrigerated. Could it be the oils?

> My next batch I'm going to use a little polysorbate 80 and propolyne

> glycol but I have to make a huge batch so wanted some imput.

>

> Thanks in advance.

>

> Mark

>

>

>

>

>

>

[Guest guest]

> It doesn't smell rotten per se. Smells are very complicated relate

> over the internet but it kind of smells like the cumber and

> Chamommile when left to mix together, take on the smell of feet. Not

> dirty gross feet, just clean feet. Which have a smell. Chamomile

kind

> of smells like feet to begin with. Not rotten though. It doesn't

have

> a sulfer garbage or rotting smell by any means.

>

> Anyway, I add the fragrances and it smells great and masks the

> chamomile smell but after a couple weeks even if I shake the product

> every day, the smell of the fragrance oils goes away.

Mark.

I think your problem is in the hydrosols you are using. Any time you

blend several hydrosols together in effect you are making a perfume.

Then it looks like you are adding more fragrance oils to your

combination, so what you are ending up with is a bunch of different

fragrances that do not blend well together. Any time you make your

own perfume from scratch you will find that the fragrance can be

quite different after it has had a chance to blend and age.

> I use Liquid Germall Plus and in this formulation at 1%.

That is too high a concentration, you should be using no more than

1/2%.

You may want to pick up a book on blending fragrances or you may find

some info in the archives or files.

Pat.

[Guest guest]

Pat wrote: I think your problem is in the hydrosols you are using. Any time you

blend several hydrosols together in effect you are making a perfume.

Then it looks like you are adding more fragrance oils to your

combination, so what you are ending up with is a bunch of different

fragrances that do not blend well together. Any time you make your

own perfume from scratch you will find that the fragrance can be

quite different after it has had a chance to blend and age.

Hi Pat & Mark,

Pat you've made a really good point and this is great advice. ly I don't

care for the scent of chamomile and but find lavender does well with it.

Mark, you've went to a lot of expense to use expensive hydrosols. With this in

mind perhaps you may want to consider using essential oils rather than

(synthetic) fragrance oils to scent your formulation. As a suggestion,

consider using one of the pre-blended EOs that are available at health food

stores like Wild Oats Commmunity Market, or something similar. They have

testers out so you can try before you buy. I especially like the " Tranquility

Blend " .

HTH,

Pam

who is trying to trim her posts <g>

Cosmetic Formulator

www.cosmeticformulator.com

" The Ingredient Source for Cosmetic Crafters. "

[Guest guest]

I was trying to decifer from the first post if any polysorbates had

been used in the formula or not, and couldn't tell for sure. I did

catch that you were planning on using it in a new batch. After a

debate on another group came up, I went to ISP directly and asked them

about using polysorbates with paraben based preservatives, and was

told that polysorbates tend to break down paraben based preservatives,

and either an additional preservative system needed or a different one

all together. So make sure you factor that into your formulation

choices. It doesn't always break down, and it doesn't always break

down completely, but it can. I believe ISP recommends liquid germall

plus for more water based items like toners.

This is a link I've found invaluable to me.

http://www.ispcorp.com/products/preservatives/content/selguide/index.html

Hope it helps in figuring out what did happen, or routes to take when

you reformulate.

Goodwin

www.soapersworkshop.com

[Guest guest]

Generally I only use .5% preservative but I upped it on one batch to

see if it would change it but it didn't.

I think you may be right about blending the different hydrosols.

I tried using a different blend of hydrosols - this time I added Rose

and fennel and cut down on the cucumber and frankincence and it smells

much better. I ran into another problem though. I heated this batch to

170 and held it for 10 minutes. Now instead of being completely

transparent, it's cloudy. It wasn't cloudy when I heated it, only

after it cooled down.

Mark

>

> I think your problem is in the hydrosols you are using. Any time you

> blend several hydrosols together in effect you are making a perfume.

> Then it looks like you are adding more fragrance oils to your

> combination, so what you are ending up with is a bunch of different

> fragrances that do not blend well together. Any time you make your

> own perfume from scratch you will find that the fragrance can be

> quite different after it has had a chance to blend and age.

>

> > I use Liquid Germall Plus and in this formulation at 1%.

>

> That is too high a concentration, you should be using no more than

> 1/2%.

>

> You may want to pick up a book on blending fragrances or you may find

> some info in the archives or files.

>

> Pat.

>

[Guest guest]

Thanks -

I use liquid germall plus in everything I make. The one reason I tried

the paraben based preservative is because I read somewhere that they

are superior when it comes to fungus, as opposed to yeast, bacteria or

mold.

Good to know about the polysorbate and parabens. I wonder how many

products contain both polysorbates and parabens that on on grocery

store shelves? I'd guess a lot.

Mark

>

> I was trying to decifer from the first post if any polysorbates had

> been used in the formula or not, and couldn't tell for sure. I did

> catch that you were planning on using it in a new batch. After a

> debate on another group came up, I went to ISP directly and asked them

> about using polysorbates with paraben based preservatives, and was

> told that polysorbates tend to break down paraben based preservatives,

> and either an additional preservative system needed or a different one

> all together. So make sure you factor that into your formulation

> choices. It doesn't always break down, and it doesn't always break

> down completely, but it can. I believe ISP recommends liquid germall

> plus for more water based items like toners.

>

> This is a link I've found invaluable to me.

>

>

http://www.ispcorp.com/products/preservatives/content/selguide/index.html

>

> Hope it helps in figuring out what did happen, or routes to take when

> you reformulate.

>

> Goodwin

> www.soapersworkshop.com

>

[Guest guest]

I still use LiquaPar Optima (paraben-based) in a fair amount of my

formulas simply because it's less sensitive to heat. I ship a lot of

products, a lot to southern states, and am even working out a contract

for selling in Taiwan. So my products sit in hot shipping trucks.

Liquapar isn't nearly as sensitive to heat as a lot of the

preservative systems are (many have to be added during the cool down

phase). I'd love to go completely paraben free, simply because the

market is becoming so scared of them. But for various reasons (the

heat thing only being one of them), I'm probably going to stick with

my choice for now. However, I do make and sell lotion bases, and offer

non-paraben systems. Preservatives are always a complex and

complicated part of the formulation system. It always scares me when

people don't fully do their homework on them. I know I still don't

know nearly everything I need to know about them, but I'm constantly

learning.

As for stuff on the shelves in stores...there are enough other scary

things going on in them that I won't touch them! I respect that a lot

of the bigger companies are trying to jump on the more natural

bandwagon, but after looking at the promotion labels, then comparing

the ingredient labels, they're not really changing much. Maybe tossing

in a smidgen of Shea Butter into a crappy and unnatural base, just so

they can take advantage of the Shea Butter Craze. But it makes me

realize that they've noticed that we're gaining an ever growing base

of loyal customers. Their previous loyal customers. And now they're

scrambling to regain them. That gives me warm fuzzies (evil grin). Let

them scramble. Unless they get a clue, they'll never make stuff as

nice as ours.

Goodwin

www.soapersworkshop.com

Custom Lotion Bases & Colorants - On Sale Now!

>

> Thanks -

>

> I use liquid germall plus in everything I make. The one reason I tried

> the paraben based preservative is because I read somewhere that they

> are superior when it comes to fungus, as opposed to yeast, bacteria or

> mold.

>

> Good to know about the polysorbate and parabens. I wonder how many

> products contain both polysorbates and parabens that on on grocery

> store shelves? I'd guess a lot.

>

> Mark

>

[Guest guest]

I did as Pat suggested and changed the formulation and it smells much

better without added fragrance it doesn't compromise the integrity of

the formulation. I will try some lavender in it also. I'll have to

wait and see in a couple weeks if he starts smelling " different "

though. There are a few other ingreidents in their that are not

hydrosols or distillates. Possibly a reaction there.

Pam, I have some synthetic scents and frarance EO's. Probably about 25

at this point. I'm just starting to learn about them.

It's really very interesting - this balance between the cosmetic value

verses the health value in skin formulations.

Most people want some kind of instant cosmetic effect - touch or scent.

I think your problem is in the hydrosols you are using.

Any time you

> blend several hydrosols together in effect you are making a perfume.

> Then it looks like you are adding more fragrance oils to your

> combination, so what you are ending up with is a bunch of different

> fragrances that do not blend well together. Any time you make your

> own perfume from scratch you will find that the fragrance can be

> quite different after it has had a chance to blend and age.

>

> Hi Pat & Mark,

>

> Pat you've made a really good point and this is great advice.

ly I don't care for the scent of chamomile and but find lavender

does well with it.

>

> Mark, you've went to a lot of expense to use expensive hydrosols.

With this in mind perhaps you may want to consider using essential

oils rather than (synthetic) fragrance oils to scent your formulation.

As a suggestion, consider using one of the pre-blended EOs that are

available at health food stores like Wild Oats Commmunity Market, or

something similar. They have testers out so you can try before you

buy. I especially like the " Tranquility Blend " .

>

> HTH,

> Pam

> who is trying to trim her posts <g>

>

>

> Cosmetic Formulator

> www.cosmeticformulator.com

> " The Ingredient Source for Cosmetic Crafters. "

>

>

>

>

[Guest guest]

>

> I still use LiquaPar Optima (paraben-based) in a fair amount of my

> formulas simply because it's less sensitive to heat. I ship a lot of

> products, a lot to southern states, and am even working out a >contract

> for selling in Taiwan. So my products sit in hot shipping trucks.

> Liquapar isn't nearly as sensitive to heat as a lot of the

> preservative systems are (many have to be added during the cool down

> phase). I'd love to go completely paraben free, simply because the

> market is becoming so scared of them. But for various reasons (the

> heat thing only being one of them), I'm probably going to stick with

> my choice for now. However, I do make and sell lotion bases, and >offer

> non-paraben systems. Preservatives are always a complex and

> complicated part of the formulation system. It always scares me when

> people don't fully do their homework on them. I know I still don't

> know nearly everything I need to know about them, but I'm constantly

> learning.

Good luck with your venture. I'm working on a much smaller scale at

this point but I understand your dichotomy re: preservation.

> As for stuff on the shelves in stores...there are enough other scary

> things going on in them that I won't touch them! I respect that a lot

> of the bigger companies are trying to jump on the more natural

> bandwagon, but after looking at the promotion labels, then comparing

> the ingredient labels, they're not really changing much. Maybe tossing

> in a smidgen of Shea Butter into a crappy and unnatural base, just so

> they can take advantage of the Shea Butter Craze. But it makes me

> realize that they've noticed that we're gaining an ever growing base

> of loyal customers. Their previous loyal customers. And now they're

> scrambling to regain them. That gives me warm fuzzies (evil grin). Let

> them scramble. Unless they get a clue, they'll never make stuff as

> nice as ours.

There are also a lot of NON Procter and Gamble or NON L'Oreal

companies who have very expensive products that are not only

worthless, but potentially damaging as well.

I've been an advocate of dietary supplements for many years and have

read every label of every food product I've purchased in the least 20

years.

Marketing is a big deal. If you don't have a name, I think it's way

more important to have a great logo than Shea butter if you're really

going for the big bucks.