Re: Placebo and the warm,sympathetic therapist effect..

[Guest guest]

I have had different experiences with therapists, I don't do warm fuzzy therapy. There are other types, someone to help you recognize unhealthy behaviors and give guidance toward changing unhealthy behaviors. Being accountable to someone for doing your homework (behavioral changes) was also very helpful to me. Though if someone were to have severe attachment disorders, learning to have a relationship with a warm caring human (therapist) is most definitely a type of behavior change. Also the therapist is a good allie when you are making healthy behaviorial changes in your life, which others in your life might not be happy about. I agree just talk therapy was not so productive for me personally.Many people read and post here sporadically, it will be a challenge to get everyone

to truncate their messages I'm afraid. To: "Soundsensitivity " <Soundsensitivity > Sent: Thursday, March 8, 2012 8:25 AM Subject: Placebo and the warm,sympathetic therapist effect..

I'd like to branch off to this subject since I have some experience with it. Having been to many therapies over the years and having experienced the transference and other effects of having a warm, caring human being interested in you, I can say that there is relief from some of the symptoms one might be suffering from. Anxiety, fears, depression, even being bothered by noises or the like can be temporarily reduced to the point that it is hard to tell whether the therapy they are using is actually working or it is there interest in us that makes you

feel

better. Feeling cared about and "loved" effects the endocrine system and our body releases endorphins and other hormones that make us feel better. Intense exercise has the same effect(my 'drug" of choice) as does pharmaceutical drugs,alcohol and other natural substances. But this effect is usually short lived from my experience. So many people become addicted to this feeling and go to basically ineffective therapies for years to get their "fix", but are not really getting cured. It keeps the psychologists in business but since we are looking to really cure Misophonia, something more permanent and effective is going to have to be developed, if it hasn't already. I think this may also be part of the placebo effect that therapies have. Just giving a person hope has the same effect, and I think can make biochemical changes in our

bodies. We do need hope (finding this website has given me hope), but false hope is kind of a rip off and not really a cure for anything. I am not a professional and certainly no expert, but this is my experience so far dealing with this subject, for what it is worth. I would love to hear any other opinions on this. Mike

[Guest guest]

I understand how the placebo effect can work in therapy.But focusing on Misophonia and NFB. how does one do 4 months of NFB and eliminate fight or flight reactions with a placebo effect? And if that could happen then once they stop NFB then the Misophonia should return. Right? There's the telling point. You don't keep doing NFB like u do with talk therapy. once ur done, ur done and if it doesn't return like with Cylye and his son then it wasn't placebo. Sent from my iPhone

I'd like to branch off to this subject since I have some experience with it. Having been to many therapies over the years and having experienced the transference and other effects of having a warm, caring human being interested in you, I can say that there is relief from some of the symptoms one might be suffering from. Anxiety, fears, depression, even being bothered by noises or the like can be temporarily reduced to the point that it is hard to tell whether the therapy they are using is actually working or it is there interest in us that makes you feel

better. Feeling cared about and "loved" effects the endocrine system and our body releases endorphins and other hormones that make us feel better. Intense exercise has the same effect(my 'drug" of choice) as does pharmaceutical drugs,alcohol and other natural substances. But this effect is usually short lived from my experience. So many people become addicted to this feeling and go to basically ineffective therapies for years to get their "fix", but are not really getting cured. It keeps the psychologists in business but since we are looking to really cure Misophonia, something more permanent and effective is going to have to be developed, if it hasn't already. I think this may also be part of the placebo effect that therapies have. Just giving a person hope has the same effect, and I think can make biochemical changes in our

bodies. We do need hope (finding this website has given me hope), but false hope is kind of a rip off and not really a cure for anything. I am not a professional and certainly no expert, but this is my experience so far dealing with this subject, for what it is worth. I would love to hear any other opinions on this. Mike To: Soundsensitivity Sent: Wednesday, March 7, 2012 10:41 PM Subject: Re: Re: Help

Sorry to nitpick but this is what I meant when I asked if people could change the subject line when changing the subject. This string originally asked for advice in coping with sounds in an office and has morphed into a debate about neurofeedback. I don't work in an office but am interested in hearing what people have to say about NFB. And I already responded to the original message so I would not have read these posts if there were a lot of emails to sort through.When Audrey wrote, she was responding to 's question about office work and suggested NFB. But when Dr. J wrote, it was no longer about the original subject and I think a change in subject would have been helpful at that point. There was some discussion of how to make this more user-friendly, especially if the numbers increase

significantly after the

20/20 program, so, I thought it was worth repeating my request. Also, a digest reader asked that we delete previous posts in our replies -- except to show what specifically we are responding to -- and a lot of us are doing that. Thanks

> I am sorry, this kind of therapy has been around a while and some pretty wild claims have been made about other conditions or syndromes as to how well it works. Be very cautious and remember there is an enormous placebo effect in just about all of those kinds of treatments, warm sympathetic provider or therapist makes us all feel better.

>

> Be careful about the fees. This can run up a bunch. Most insurance companies will not pay for neuro feedback.

>

> Dr. J

>

>

> >

> > Hi

> > There was a person who wrote in to this site suggesting that Neurofeedback helped him and his son with their symptoms. I have started treatments myself- I dont' know if it will work but I'm very hopeful as the Dr says he's had positive results from children he's treated with ADD who also have Misophonia. It is costly but some people have been able to have their insurance pay- just a thought. I'll let people on this site know how it's working for me after a couple months of treatments. Just remember you're not alone and there is hope:)

> >

[Guest guest]

Heidi,Are you saying that the NFB that you have been doing has gotten rid of the fight or flight reaction for you? I hope so because this could be a big step in truly dealing with Misophonia. I am hopeful from the little I have heard about it. Mike To: "Soundsensitivity "

<Soundsensitivity > Sent: Thursday, March 8, 2012 2:14 PM Subject: Re: Placebo and the warm,sympathetic therapist effect..

I understand how the placebo effect can work in therapy.But focusing on Misophonia and NFB. how does one do 4 months of NFB and eliminate fight or flight reactions with a placebo effect? And if that could happen then once they stop NFB then the Misophonia should return. Right? There's the telling point. You don't keep doing NFB like u do with talk therapy. once ur done, ur done and if it doesn't return like with Cylye and his son then it wasn't placebo. Sent from my iPhone

I'd like to branch off to this subject since I have some experience with it. Having been to many therapies over the years and having experienced the transference and other effects of having a warm, caring human being interested in you, I can say that there is relief from some of the symptoms one might be suffering from. Anxiety, fears, depression, even being bothered by noises or the like can be temporarily reduced to the point that it is hard to tell whether the therapy they are using is actually working or it is there interest in

us that makes you feel

better. Feeling cared about and "loved" effects the endocrine system and our body releases endorphins and other hormones that make us feel better. Intense exercise has the same effect(my 'drug" of choice) as does pharmaceutical drugs,alcohol and other natural substances. But this effect is usually short lived from my experience. So many people become addicted to this feeling and go to basically ineffective therapies for years to get their "fix", but are not really getting cured. It keeps the psychologists in business but since we are looking to really cure Misophonia, something more permanent and effective is going to have to be developed, if it hasn't already. I think this may also be part of the placebo effect that therapies have. Just giving a person hope has the same effect, and I think can make biochemical changes in our

bodies. We do need hope (finding this website has given me hope), but false hope is kind of a rip off and not really a cure for anything. I am not a professional and certainly no expert, but this is my experience so far dealing with this subject, for what it is worth. I would love to hear any other opinions on this. Mike To: Soundsensitivity Sent: Wednesday, March 7, 2012 10:41 PM Subject: Re: Re: Help

Sorry to nitpick but this is what I meant when I asked if people could change the subject line when changing the subject. This string originally asked for advice in coping with sounds in an office and has morphed into a debate about neurofeedback. I don't work in an office but am interested in hearing what people have to say about NFB. And I already responded to the original message so I would not have read these posts if there were a lot of emails to sort through.When Audrey wrote, she was responding to 's question about office work and suggested NFB. But when Dr. J wrote, it was no longer about the original subject and I think a change in subject would have been helpful at that point. There was some discussion of how to make this more user-friendly, especially if the numbers increase

significantly after the

20/20 program, so, I thought it was worth repeating my request. Also, a digest reader asked that we delete previous posts in our replies -- except to show what specifically we are responding to -- and a lot of us are doing that. Thanks

> I am sorry, this kind of therapy has been around a while and some pretty wild claims have been made about other conditions or syndromes as to how well it works. Be very cautious and remember there is an enormous placebo effect in just about all of those kinds of treatments, warm sympathetic provider or therapist makes us all feel better.

>

> Be careful about the fees. This can run up a bunch. Most insurance companies will not pay for neuro feedback.

>

> Dr. J

>

>

> >

> > Hi

> > There was a person who wrote in to this site suggesting that Neurofeedback helped him and his son with their symptoms. I have started treatments myself- I dont' know if it will work but I'm very hopeful as the Dr says he's had positive results from children he's treated with ADD who also have Misophonia. It is costly but some people have been able to have their insurance pay- just a thought. I'll let people on this site know how it's working for me after a couple months of treatments. Just remember you're not alone and there is hope:)

> >

[Guest guest]

No. I'm saying it got rid of it for Cylye and his son. I did 5 sessions of LENS and have done 4 of Zengar so I'm just starting out and it's too soon to say. What it has done for me on this short time is elminated my essential tremor and my sleep has improved immensely. I believe it'll take time (20 or so sessions) and I plan to keep everyone here posted as to my progress. Sent from my iPhone

Heidi,Are you saying that the NFB that you have been doing has gotten rid of the fight or flight reaction for you? I hope so because this could be a big step in truly dealing with Misophonia. I am hopeful from the little I have heard about it. Mike To: "Soundsensitivity "

<Soundsensitivity > Sent: Thursday, March 8, 2012 2:14 PM Subject: Re: Placebo and the warm,sympathetic therapist effect..

I understand how the placebo effect can work in therapy.But focusing on Misophonia and NFB. how does one do 4 months of NFB and eliminate fight or flight reactions with a placebo effect? And if that could happen then once they stop NFB then the Misophonia should return. Right? There's the telling point. You don't keep doing NFB like u do with talk therapy. once ur done, ur done and if it doesn't return like with Cylye and his son then it wasn't placebo. Sent from my iPhone

I'd like to branch off to this subject since I have some experience with it. Having been to many therapies over the years and having experienced the transference and other effects of having a warm, caring human being interested in you, I can say that there is relief from some of the symptoms one might be suffering from. Anxiety, fears, depression, even being bothered by noises or the like can be temporarily reduced to the point that it is hard to tell whether the therapy they are using is actually working or it is there interest in

us that makes you feel

better. Feeling cared about and "loved" effects the endocrine system and our body releases endorphins and other hormones that make us feel better. Intense exercise has the same effect(my 'drug" of choice) as does pharmaceutical drugs,alcohol and other natural substances. But this effect is usually short lived from my experience. So many people become addicted to this feeling and go to basically ineffective therapies for years to get their "fix", but are not really getting cured. It keeps the psychologists in business but since we are looking to really cure Misophonia, something more permanent and effective is going to have to be developed, if it hasn't already. I think this may also be part of the placebo effect that therapies have. Just giving a person hope has the same effect, and I think can make biochemical changes in our

bodies. We do need hope (finding this website has given me hope), but false hope is kind of a rip off and not really a cure for anything. I am not a professional and certainly no expert, but this is my experience so far dealing with this subject, for what it is worth. I would love to hear any other opinions on this. Mike To: Soundsensitivity Sent: Wednesday, March 7, 2012 10:41 PM Subject: Re: Re: Help

Sorry to nitpick but this is what I meant when I asked if people could change the subject line when changing the subject. This string originally asked for advice in coping with sounds in an office and has morphed into a debate about neurofeedback. I don't work in an office but am interested in hearing what people have to say about NFB. And I already responded to the original message so I would not have read these posts if there were a lot of emails to sort through.When Audrey wrote, she was responding to 's question about office work and suggested NFB. But when Dr. J wrote, it was no longer about the original subject and I think a change in subject would have been helpful at that point. There was some discussion of how to make this more user-friendly, especially if the numbers increase

significantly after the

20/20 program, so, I thought it was worth repeating my request. Also, a digest reader asked that we delete previous posts in our replies -- except to show what specifically we are responding to -- and a lot of us are doing that. Thanks

> I am sorry, this kind of therapy has been around a while and some pretty wild claims have been made about other conditions or syndromes as to how well it works. Be very cautious and remember there is an enormous placebo effect in just about all of those kinds of treatments, warm sympathetic provider or therapist makes us all feel better.

>

> Be careful about the fees. This can run up a bunch. Most insurance companies will not pay for neuro feedback.

>

> Dr. J

>

>

> >

> > Hi

> > There was a person who wrote in to this site suggesting that Neurofeedback helped him and his son with their symptoms. I have started treatments myself- I dont' know if it will work but I'm very hopeful as the Dr says he's had positive results from children he's treated with ADD who also have Misophonia. It is costly but some people have been able to have their insurance pay- just a thought. I'll let people on this site know how it's working for me after a couple months of treatments. Just remember you're not alone and there is hope:)

> >

[Guest guest]

I'm so glad to hear that Heidi. Can't wait to hear of your progress. I am planning to start very soon with LENS and Zengar. I have found a local practitioner. If it is effective the cost will be moot.Mike To: "Soundsensitivity " <Soundsensitivity > Sent: Thursday, March 8, 2012 3:11 PM Subject: Re: Placebo and the warm,sympathetic therapist effect..

No. I'm saying it got rid of it for Cylye and his son. I did 5 sessions of LENS and have done 4 of Zengar so I'm just starting out and it's too soon to say. What it has done for me on this short time is elminated my essential tremor and my sleep has improved immensely. I believe it'll take time (20 or so sessions) and I plan to keep everyone here posted as to my progress. Sent from my iPhone

Heidi,Are you saying that the NFB that you have been doing has gotten rid of the fight or flight reaction for you? I hope so because this could be a big step in truly dealing with Misophonia. I am hopeful from the little I have heard about it. Mike

To: "Soundsensitivity "

<Soundsensitivity > Sent: Thursday, March 8, 2012 2:14 PM Subject: Re: Placebo and the warm,sympathetic therapist effect..

I understand how the placebo effect can work in therapy.But focusing on Misophonia and NFB. how does one do 4 months of NFB and eliminate fight or flight reactions with a placebo effect? And if that could happen then once they stop NFB then the Misophonia should return. Right? There's the telling point. You don't keep doing NFB like u do with talk therapy. once ur done, ur done and if it doesn't return like with Cylye and his son then it wasn't placebo. Sent from my iPhone

I'd like to branch off to this subject since I have some experience with it. Having been to many therapies over the years and having experienced the transference and other effects of having a warm, caring human being interested in you, I can say that there is relief from some of the symptoms one might be suffering from. Anxiety, fears, depression, even being bothered by noises or the like can be temporarily reduced to the point that it is hard to tell whether the therapy they are using is actually working or it is there interest in

us that makes you feel

better. Feeling cared about and "loved" effects the endocrine system and our body releases endorphins and other hormones that make us feel better. Intense exercise has the same effect(my 'drug" of choice) as does pharmaceutical drugs,alcohol and other natural substances. But this effect is usually short lived from my experience. So many people become addicted to this feeling and go to basically ineffective therapies for years to get their "fix", but are not really getting cured. It keeps the psychologists in business but since we are looking to really cure Misophonia, something more permanent and effective is going to have to be developed, if it hasn't already. I think this may also be part of the placebo effect that therapies have. Just giving a person hope has the same effect, and I think can make biochemical changes in our

bodies. We do need hope (finding this website has given me hope), but false hope is kind of a rip off and not really a cure for anything. I am not a professional and certainly no expert, but this is my experience so far dealing with this subject, for what it is worth. I would love to hear any other opinions on this. Mike To: Soundsensitivity Sent: Wednesday, March 7, 2012 10:41 PM Subject: Re: Re: Help

Sorry to nitpick but this is what I meant when I asked if people could change the subject line when changing the subject. This string originally asked for advice in coping with sounds in an office and has morphed into a debate about neurofeedback. I don't work in an office but am interested in hearing what people have to say about NFB. And I already responded to the original message so I would not have read these posts if there were a lot of emails to sort through.When Audrey wrote, she was responding to 's question about office work and suggested NFB. But when Dr. J wrote, it was no longer about the original subject and I think a change in subject would have been helpful at that point. There was some discussion of how to make this more user-friendly, especially if the numbers increase

significantly after the

20/20 program, so, I thought it was worth repeating my request. Also, a digest reader asked that we delete previous posts in our replies -- except to show what specifically we are responding to -- and a lot of us are doing that. Thanks

> I am sorry, this kind of therapy has been around a while and some pretty wild claims have been made about other conditions or syndromes as to how well it works. Be very cautious and remember there is an enormous placebo effect in just about all of those kinds of treatments, warm sympathetic provider or therapist makes us all feel better.

>

> Be careful about the fees. This can run up a bunch. Most insurance companies will not pay for neuro feedback.

>

> Dr. J

>

>

> >

> > Hi

> > There was a person who wrote in to this site suggesting that Neurofeedback helped him and his son with their symptoms. I have started treatments myself- I dont' know if it will work but I'm very hopeful as the Dr says he's had positive results from children he's treated with ADD who also have Misophonia. It is costly but some people have been able to have their insurance pay- just a thought. I'll let people on this site know how it's working for me after a couple months of treatments. Just remember you're not alone and there is hope:)

> >

[Guest guest]

Heidi, I heard of oner person who simply went to a provider for evaluation and

afterwards, never was troubled with misophonia again.

Why did that happen?

I have no idea.

Is it common? No.

Could it happen? Well, apparently it did.

What does it tell us? Not much.

The relationship between physiology and psychology is complex. We may not be

able to really pull this apart well for some time, but we can report how we are

doing in various efforts.

I will not endorse an approach of course until I think it has some basis for

success.

The MMP is based on my own approach since 1997 and so I do have many years of

observations and reports and follow up even over ten years in some cases. So I

do feel fairly confident that the MMP will produce some kind of results. We

shall see.

It is only worthwhile if it is reproducible. That is the key point of

therapies. If Dr R can use BNF and make your M go away, but no other Dr. can do

the same, we have an even bigger problem but not that rare, either, as the

personal affect of the provider is, again, enormous.

And under-rated in a population who are desperately trying to become normal.

Dr J

> > > >

> > > > Hi

> > > > There was a person who wrote in to this site suggesting that

Neurofeedback helped him and his son with their symptoms. I have started

treatments myself- I dont' know if it will work but I'm very hopeful as the Dr

says he's had positive results from children he's treated with ADD who also have

Misophonia. It is costly but some people have been able to have their

insurance pay- just a thought. I'll let people on this site know how it's

working for me after a couple months of treatments. Just remember you're not

alone and there is hope:)

> > > >

> >

> >

> >

> >

> >

>

[Guest guest]

thanks heidi , looking forward to see if you have any progress. much appreiciated. jason

I'd like to branch off to this subject since I have some experience with it. Having been to many therapies over the years and having experienced the transference and other effects of having a warm, caring human being interested in you, I can say that there is relief from some of the symptoms one might be suffering from. Anxiety, fears, depression, even being bothered by noises or the like can be temporarily reduced to the point that it is hard to tell whether the therapy they are using is actually working or it is there interest in us that makes you feel better. Feeling cared about and "loved" effects the endocrine system and our body releases endorphins and other hormones that make us feel better. Intense exercise has the same effect(my 'drug" of choice) as does pharmaceutical drugs,alcohol and other natural

substances.

But this effect is usually short lived from my experience. So many people become addicted to this feeling and go to basically ineffective therapies for years to get their "fix", but are not really getting cured. It keeps the psychologists in business but since we are looking to really cure Misophonia, something more permanent and effective is going to have to be developed, if it hasn't already. I think this may also be part of the placebo effect that therapies have. Just giving a person hope has the same effect, and I think can make biochemical changes in our bodies. We do need hope (finding this website has given me hope), but false hope is kind of a rip off and not really a cure for anything.

I am not a professional and certainly no expert, but this is my experience so far dealing with this subject, for what it is worth. I would love to hear any other opinions on this.

Mike

To: Soundsensitivity Sent: Wednesday, March 7, 2012 10:41 PMSubject: Re: Re: Help

Sorry to nitpick but this is what I meant when I asked if people could change the subject line when changing the subject. This string originally asked for advice in coping with sounds in an office and has morphed into a debate about neurofeedback. I don't work in an office but am interested in hearing what people have to say about NFB. And I already responded to the original message so I would not have read these posts if there were a lot of emails to sort through.When Audrey wrote, she was responding to 's question about office work and suggested NFB. But when Dr. J wrote, it was no longer about the original subject and I think a change in subject would have been helpful at that point. There was some discussion of how to make this more user-friendly, especially if the numbers increase significantly after the 20/20 program, so, I thought it was worth repeating my request. Also, a

digest reader asked that we delete previous posts in our replies -- except to show what specifically we are responding to -- and a lot of us are doing that. Thanks

> I am sorry, this kind of therapy has been around a while and some pretty wild claims have been made about other conditions or syndromes as to how well it works. Be very cautious and remember there is an enormous placebo effect in just about all of those kinds of treatments, warm sympathetic provider or therapist makes us all feel better.> > Be careful about the fees. This can run up a bunch. Most insurance companies will not pay for neuro feedback.> > Dr. J> > > >> > Hi > > There was a person who wrote in to this site suggesting that Neurofeedback helped him and his son with their symptoms. I have started treatments myself- I dont' know if it will work but I'm very hopeful as the Dr says he's had positive results from children he's treated with ADD who also have

Misophonia. It is costly but some people have been able to have their insurance pay- just a thought. I'll let people on this site know how it's working for me after a couple months of treatments. Just remember you're not alone and there is hope:) > >