Guest guest Posted November 21, 2011 Report Share Posted November 21, 2011 Hello , I'm another old Aspie codger on here and since your post seems to be seeking other Aspies' opinions on your dilemma, I'll add my bit to what Bill has said: > I am an NT married to an AS for 17 long years. Some years and some days or minutes are longer than others. We have only 4-legged furry kids at the moment. I see the 4-legged furry variety as being a big plus for you compared to the 2-legged variety. In my view, the two-legged variety and problematic Aspie relationships don't go well together > I am struggling at the moment with communication skills. Communications are very important components to all relationships, so I think you are right to struggle and see if you can somehow improve them. > My AS husband is not a verbally gifted man. He can compose electronically but the ability to talk and discuss feelings and deal with disagreements is very challenging. He is a brilliant guy in the technical world but not in the rest of it. Two points here: (1) You are describing what is actually quite a common Aspie trait here. Many of us can communicate much better via a keyboard than we can face to face verbally. (2) I'm guessing that your husband does go some way towards trying to interact with you via your preferred method of communication, namely talking, so why can't you go some way towards interacting with him via his preferred method, namely e-mailing. Your post here demonstrates that you have the necessary literary skills, so why not try to meet him half-way? Dunno if you're aware of it, but there are plenty of quite successful AS?NT couples who do a substantial amount of their interacting by e-mail. > We are having a huge fight right now…thus I write this. > > Those of you with AS, if you have a topic to discuss do you find that following the more NT style of how you compose a term paper very illogical if speaking? Bill said " no " but I say " yes " to this one. Yes, I would find it very odd, inappropriate, slow and inefficient to speak like that. But I agree with Bill that everyone needs to be aware of their listener and adapt their delivery in a style that's going to be best understood by that audience. I's say everyone needs to learn that, including Aspies.. . > Silly Example: > Name 3 things on the floor & explain why it is there. > > I feel like the way we are trained in English class is very much the way this NT would answer the question. > > English class paragraphs: > Intro > Thing #1 on the floor & why > Thing #2 on the floor & why > Thing #3 on the floor & why > Conclusion > > I feel that my AS husband would have a paragraph on: > Thing #1 on the floor (very long paragraph) > The history of stuff living on the floor > The origin of floors > The history of carpet > How to score & stain concrete floors > How dust mites live off our dead skin cells > Things #2 on the floor (forget the why. This is just a single word.) > The footprints left from our forefathers and how they paved the way for hardwood flooring > How varnish is derived from organic & inorganic sources > How to maintain hardwood floors > How only messy people have stuff on their floors > Conclusion > Thing #3 on the floor > The history of dust mite allergies in the US > How not vacuuming the floor helps kids develop better immune systems > If there are 3 things on the floor you should stop what you are doing and put them up even if the house is on fire Yes, of course that's totally inappropriate and ridiculous. Such an uncontrolled " brain dump " (I do like that expression Bill!) shows total lack of consideration for the listener and I can't imagine anyone going through life and failing to learn to contain themselves. It's true that some poor souls (AS & NT alike) seem to be blessed with incurable verbal diahorrea, and you can never get a word in edgeways - I think most of us know of one or two people like that - but there has to be a learning process which includes listening and adapting according to the feedback. Again, though, I have to say you're describing a not-too-uncommon Aspie trait here. How strong and irksome it is of course varies a lot > I need some verbal input from some other AS folks as I try very hard to not divorce my husband. I know some AS folks have basic 101 verbal issues and find communicating very difficult. Offer me some input for him as well as me to survive another day. Again 2 points here: 1: Concentrate on finding the most effective modes of communication that get your messages across to each other. It could be chalk and blackboard near the front door, It could be via handwritten sticky notes around the house, it could be a few simple verbal words spoken at the right time, it could be some kind of electronic dialogue like e-mail. Or it could be a combination of all these depending on the topics. 2: Communication must provoke interest in the listener, otherwise it will only go in one ear and out of the other, so practice your communication skills on topics that are of common interest. Surely you must have some common interests between you??? It all boils down to each of you lesrning more about the way the other thinks and adapting your communications so that they come over as interesting and meaningful. Perhsps this is an oversimplification on what is a difficult problem, but anyway, I hope it helps a bit. (Dx AS 3 years ago at age 67) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted November 22, 2011 Report Share Posted November 22, 2011 - I have actually started giving him paper to help avoid the all too common over pronoun use and to force him to make sense to himself before actually speaking to me. It is seldom well accepted and I think he sees it as a last resort failure but it does work. I will try and mainstream this and similar ideas. The idea of emailing a conversation is an odd one but one that actually might work. I have never thought of that before and that is quite brilliant! Not quite sure how to do that as our desks put our backs to one another but maybe something you write and then get up and leave for a bit and come back like " real " email where the person is not right there. And yes 4-legged kids need less therapy than 2-legged kids when mom & dad disagree I know I exaggerated the 3 paragraph thingy but he does go off on tangents so often it is impossible to keep him on subject and I feel he never gets around to addressing the topic at hand. I also think at least his verbal skills is like irritable bowel syndrome: either verbal diarrhea or verbal constipation. It is either so much that is makes no sense or so little it makes no sense. I guess the idea of typing things is actually looking more and more brilliant! I feel the idea of shaping the conversation for the listener is another fabulous idea. He keeps telling me it is me that the issues lie with. He seems to think that just because no one else ever tells him he is sounding looney and I do that I am the problem child. He has managed to create a non-verbal work environment by using emails that he is limited (to his credit) in his business voice interactions. The fact that he works with other fellow AS computer geeks does not help his perception of what " NT " worlds communicate like. Yes we have common interests. One's life must overlap a little to be able to forge a bond. As I still am here, I guess we have some of that Thanks ! This was great input. I really appreciate your thoughts on this. I needed some more AS input as the internet offers only so much vague that I needed some more real world facts. You are amazing! > > > I am an NT married to an AS for 17 long years. Some years and some days or minutes are longer than others. We have only 4-legged furry kids at the moment. > > I see the 4-legged furry variety as being a big plus for you compared to > the 2-legged variety. In my view, the two-legged variety and > problematic Aspie relationships don't go well together > > > I am struggling at the moment with communication skills. > > Communications are very important components to all relationships, so I > think you are right to struggle and see if you can somehow improve them. > > > My AS husband is not a verbally gifted man. He can compose electronically but the ability to talk and discuss feelings and deal with disagreements is very challenging. He is a brilliant guy in the technical world but not in the rest of it. > > Two points here: > > (1) You are describing what is actually quite a common Aspie > trait here. Many of us can communicate much better via > a keyboard than we can face to face verbally. > > (2) I'm guessing that your husband does go some way towards trying > to interact with you via your preferred method of communication, > namely talking, so why can't you go some way towards interacting > with him via his preferred method, namely e-mailing. Your post > here demonstrates that you have the necessary literary skills, > so why not try to meet him half-way? Dunno if you're aware > of it, but there are plenty of quite successful AS?NT couples > who do a substantial amount of their interacting by e-mail. > > > We are having a huge fight right now�thus I write this. > > > > Those of you with AS, if you have a topic to discuss do you find that following the more NT style of how you compose a term paper very illogical if speaking? > > Bill said " no " but I say " yes " to this one. Yes, I would find it very > odd, inappropriate, slow and inefficient to speak like that. > > But I agree with Bill that everyone needs to be aware of their listener > and adapt their delivery in a style that's going to be best understood > by that audience. I's say everyone needs to learn that, including > Aspies.. . > > > Silly Example: > > Name 3 things on the floor & explain why it is there. > > > > I feel like the way we are trained in English class is very much the way this NT would answer the question. > > > > English class paragraphs: > > Intro > > Thing #1 on the floor & why > > Thing #2 on the floor & why > > Thing #3 on the floor & why > > Conclusion > > > > I feel that my AS husband would have a paragraph on: > > Thing #1 on the floor (very long paragraph) > > The history of stuff living on the floor > > The origin of floors > > The history of carpet > > How to score & stain concrete floors > > How dust mites live off our dead skin cells > > Things #2 on the floor (forget the why. This is just a single word.) > > The footprints left from our forefathers and how they paved the way for hardwood flooring > > How varnish is derived from organic & inorganic sources > > How to maintain hardwood floors > > How only messy people have stuff on their floors > > Conclusion > > Thing #3 on the floor > > The history of dust mite allergies in the US > > How not vacuuming the floor helps kids develop better immune systems > > If there are 3 things on the floor you should stop what you are doing and put them up even if the house is on fire > > Yes, of course that's totally inappropriate and ridiculous. Such an > uncontrolled " brain dump " (I do like that expression Bill!) shows total > lack of consideration for the listener and I can't imagine anyone going > through life and failing to learn to contain themselves. It's true > that some poor souls (AS & NT alike) seem to be blessed with incurable > verbal diahorrea, and you can never get a word in edgeways - I think > most of us know of one or two people like that - but there has to be a > learning process which includes listening and adapting according to the > feedback. > > Again, though, I have to say you're describing a not-too-uncommon > Aspie trait here. How strong and irksome it is of course varies > a lot > > > I need some verbal input from some other AS folks as I try very hard to not divorce my husband. I know some AS folks have basic 101 verbal issues and find communicating very difficult. Offer me some input for him as well as me to survive another day. > > Again 2 points here: > > 1: Concentrate on finding the most effective modes of communication > that get your messages across to each other. It could be chalk > and blackboard near the front door, It could be via handwritten > sticky notes around the house, it could be a few simple verbal > words spoken at the right time, it could be some kind of > electronic dialogue like e-mail. Or it could be a combination > of all these depending on the topics. > > 2: Communication must provoke interest in the listener, otherwise > it will only go in one ear and out of the other, so practice > your communication skills on topics that are of common > interest. Surely you must have some common interests between > you??? > > It all boils down to each of you learning more about the way the other > thinks and adapting your communications so that they come over as > interesting and meaningful. Perhsps this is an oversimplification on > what is a difficult problem, but anyway, I hope it helps a bit. > > > > (Dx AS 3 years ago at age 67) > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted November 22, 2011 Report Share Posted November 22, 2011 Great post, Liz. The communication effort really does need to flow both ways. Unfortunately, it seems very common for struggling NTs to reach out with the mindset of 'fixing' their Aspie partners. Perhaps not realizing that they too must make an effort to learn the skills necessary to meet somewhere in the middle. Best, ~CJ Liz Cademy wrote: > -- > > I've read through this thread and have a suggestion that seems to work well for the NT spouses on this list who have successful relationships with Aspies: > > You need to meet your partner half way. That means he needs to work hard to understand how NTs think and communicate, but YOU have to work just as hard to understand how Aspies think and communicate. Neither way is the " one true way, " both have advantages. If either of you is too rigid you can't make the relationship work. > > In some of the unsuccessful relationships here, the NT partner has refused to understand AS-think, and expected their partner to learn to be " normal. " Well, there really isn't one normal. In other failed relationships (like mine), the Aspie partner is too rigid to understand that a different communication system can even exist. [i was in an AS-AS marriage, but as I grew more understanding and flexible, my husband grew more rigid. Eventually he demanded things of me that went beyond my ethical standards, and he became abusive when I said I would not do those things.] > > When a new NT spouse join us, they often get the advice " learn everything you can about Aspergers. " That's critical advice for making the relationship work, and you can start with the articles on the Aspires web page. > > --Liz Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted November 22, 2011 Report Share Posted November 22, 2011 -- I've read through this thread and have a suggestion that seems to work well for the NT spouses on this list who have successful relationships with Aspies: You need to meet your partner half way. That means he needs to work hard to understand how NTs think and communicate, but YOU have to work just as hard to understand how Aspies think and communicate. Neither way is the " one true way, " both have advantages. If either of you is too rigid you can't make the relationship work. In some of the unsuccessful relationships here, the NT partner has refused to understand AS-think, and expected their partner to learn to be " normal. " Well, there really isn't one normal. In other failed relationships (like mine), the Aspie partner is too rigid to understand that a different communication system can even exist. [i was in an AS-AS marriage, but as I grew more understanding and flexible, my husband grew more rigid. Eventually he demanded things of me that went beyond my ethical standards, and he became abusive when I said I would not do those things.] When a new NT spouse join us, they often get the advice " learn everything you can about Aspergers. " That's critical advice for making the relationship work, and you can start with the articles on the Aspires web page. --Liz > - > I have actually started giving him paper to help avoid the all too common over pronoun use and to force him to make sense to himself before actually speaking to me. It is seldom well accepted and I think he sees it as a last resort failure but it does work. I will try and mainstream this and similar ideas. > > The idea of emailing a conversation is an odd one but one that actually might work. I have never thought of that before and that is quite brilliant! Not quite sure how to do that as our desks put our backs to one another but maybe something you write and then get up and leave for a bit and come back like " real " email where the person is not right there. > > And yes 4-legged kids need less therapy than 2-legged kids when mom & dad disagree > > I know I exaggerated the 3 paragraph thingy but he does go off on tangents so often it is impossible to keep him on subject and I feel he never gets around to addressing the topic at hand. > > I also think at least his verbal skills is like irritable bowel syndrome: either verbal diarrhea or verbal constipation. It is either so much that is makes no sense or so little it makes no sense. I guess the idea of typing things is actually looking more and more brilliant! > > I feel the idea of shaping the conversation for the listener is another fabulous idea. He keeps telling me it is me that the issues lie with. He seems to think that just because no one else ever tells him he is sounding looney and I do that I am the problem child. He has managed to create a non-verbal work environment by using emails that he is limited (to his credit) in his business voice interactions. The fact that he works with other fellow AS computer geeks does not help his perception of what " NT " worlds communicate like. > > Yes we have common interests. One's life must overlap a little to be able to forge a bond. As I still am here, I guess we have some of that > > Thanks ! This was great input. I really appreciate your thoughts on this. I needed some more AS input as the internet offers only so much vague that I needed some more real world facts. You are amazing! > > > > > > >> >>> I am an NT married to an AS for 17 long years. Some years and some days or minutes are longer than others. We have only 4-legged furry kids at the moment. >> >> I see the 4-legged furry variety as being a big plus for you compared to >> the 2-legged variety. In my view, the two-legged variety and >> problematic Aspie relationships don't go well together >> >>> I am struggling at the moment with communication skills. >> >> Communications are very important components to all relationships, so I >> think you are right to struggle and see if you can somehow improve them. >> >>> My AS husband is not a verbally gifted man. He can compose electronically but the ability to talk and discuss feelings and deal with disagreements is very challenging. He is a brilliant guy in the technical world but not in the rest of it. >> >> Two points here: >> >> (1) You are describing what is actually quite a common Aspie >> trait here. Many of us can communicate much better via >> a keyboard than we can face to face verbally. >> >> (2) I'm guessing that your husband does go some way towards trying >> to interact with you via your preferred method of communication, >> namely talking, so why can't you go some way towards interacting >> with him via his preferred method, namely e-mailing. Your post >> here demonstrates that you have the necessary literary skills, >> so why not try to meet him half-way? Dunno if you're aware >> of it, but there are plenty of quite successful AS?NT couples >> who do a substantial amount of their interacting by e-mail. >> >>> We are having a huge fight right now�thus I write this. >>> >>> Those of you with AS, if you have a topic to discuss do you find that following the more NT style of how you compose a term paper very illogical if speaking? >> >> Bill said " no " but I say " yes " to this one. Yes, I would find it very >> odd, inappropriate, slow and inefficient to speak like that. >> >> But I agree with Bill that everyone needs to be aware of their listener >> and adapt their delivery in a style that's going to be best understood >> by that audience. I's say everyone needs to learn that, including >> Aspies.. . >> >>> Silly Example: >>> Name 3 things on the floor & explain why it is there. >>> >>> I feel like the way we are trained in English class is very much the way this NT would answer the question. >>> >>> English class paragraphs: >>> Intro >>> Thing #1 on the floor & why >>> Thing #2 on the floor & why >>> Thing #3 on the floor & why >>> Conclusion >>> >>> I feel that my AS husband would have a paragraph on: >>> Thing #1 on the floor (very long paragraph) >>> The history of stuff living on the floor >>> The origin of floors >>> The history of carpet >>> How to score & stain concrete floors >>> How dust mites live off our dead skin cells >>> Things #2 on the floor (forget the why. This is just a single word.) >>> The footprints left from our forefathers and how they paved the way for hardwood flooring >>> How varnish is derived from organic & inorganic sources >>> How to maintain hardwood floors >>> How only messy people have stuff on their floors >>> Conclusion >>> Thing #3 on the floor >>> The history of dust mite allergies in the US >>> How not vacuuming the floor helps kids develop better immune systems >>> If there are 3 things on the floor you should stop what you are doing and put them up even if the house is on fire >> >> Yes, of course that's totally inappropriate and ridiculous. Such an >> uncontrolled " brain dump " (I do like that expression Bill!) shows total >> lack of consideration for the listener and I can't imagine anyone going >> through life and failing to learn to contain themselves. It's true >> that some poor souls (AS & NT alike) seem to be blessed with incurable >> verbal diahorrea, and you can never get a word in edgeways - I think >> most of us know of one or two people like that - but there has to be a >> learning process which includes listening and adapting according to the >> feedback. >> >> Again, though, I have to say you're describing a not-too-uncommon >> Aspie trait here. How strong and irksome it is of course varies >> a lot >> >>> I need some verbal input from some other AS folks as I try very hard to not divorce my husband. I know some AS folks have basic 101 verbal issues and find communicating very difficult. Offer me some input for him as well as me to survive another day. >> >> Again 2 points here: >> >> 1: Concentrate on finding the most effective modes of communication >> that get your messages across to each other. It could be chalk >> and blackboard near the front door, It could be via handwritten >> sticky notes around the house, it could be a few simple verbal >> words spoken at the right time, it could be some kind of >> electronic dialogue like e-mail. Or it could be a combination >> of all these depending on the topics. >> >> 2: Communication must provoke interest in the listener, otherwise >> it will only go in one ear and out of the other, so practice >> your communication skills on topics that are of common >> interest. Surely you must have some common interests between >> you??? >> >> It all boils down to each of you learning more about the way the other >> thinks and adapting your communications so that they come over as >> interesting and meaningful. Perhsps this is an oversimplification on >> what is a difficult problem, but anyway, I hope it helps a bit. >> >> >> >> (Dx AS 3 years ago at age 67) >> > > > > > ------------------------------------ > > " We each have our own way of living in the world, together we are like a symphony. > Some are the melody, some are the rhythm, some are the harmony > It all blends together, we are like a symphony, and each part is crucial. > We all contribute to the song of life. " > ...Sondra > > We might not always agree; but TOGETHER we will make a difference. > > ASPIRES is a closed, confidential, moderated list. > Responsibility for posts to ASPIRES lies entirely with the original author. > Do NOT post mail off-list without the author's permission. > When in doubt, please refer to our list rules at: > http://www.aspires-relationships.com/info_rules.htm > ASPIRES ~ Climbing the mountain TOGETHER > http://www.aspires-relationships.com > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted November 22, 2011 Report Share Posted November 22, 2011 Hi, I’m Deb NT, married 32 years to a diagnosed Aspie (after 25 years of marriage). Three offspring: daughter 30 who has one daughter 5, and identical twin sons 28. I feel your pain but I have to tell you I almost peed myself reading your imaginary husband’s response. If I had a nickel for every one of those types of conversations I have had with either my husband or my daughter (now 30 and undiagnosed but I’m sure is on the spectrum), I’d be rich. J Everything said was completely correct! (my hubby) and I communicate far better via MSN or email than we do in person and lists and post-it notes have saved our marriage. He likes direct clear communication and loves it when I give him clear directions in writing about what I need in as much detail as I can provide. It allows him to give me what I want with way less stress so he feels good about making me happy which helps create a positive feedback loop. It took me a long time to learn that the way I had to talk to him was very different from the ways I have been conditioned to talk to other people or from the way I want to be talked to. Once I got over it and started communicating very clearly and bluntly to him his stress levels came way down and our happiness went way up. Less stress made him able to deal with other forms of communication much easier and he now communicates so well most people would have no idea that he even has AS. In fact we recently read a book together (something we do frequently is read aloud to each other,) and in it was the DSM criteria and as I was reading it I was going through the list thinking how little each applied to today as I see him. So I asked him how he felt about which of the criteria were still a fit for him and I was shocked when he said yes to almost every one. I queried him and told him how I didn’t see most of those traits anymore and he said that they were still there just as much but that he can deal with them better now. I tell you this to say that there is hope. With time, experience, and help there is change and growth. I can honestly say that although there have been many days I would have liked to kill him, and plenty more I thought of divorce, and there are still moments that are very tough, I love him more today than I did the day I married him and I love him because he is an Aspie, not in spite of it. J I hope you take some of the great advice you can get here and that it helps. It breaks my heart that so many of the AS/NT marriages fail. I dearly hope that with earlier diagnosis and education the statistics will change. Glad to have virtually met you and feel free to email me off list if you like any time. Wishing you better days!!!Deb From: aspires-relationships [mailto:aspires-relationships ] On Behalf Of clarkandstephaniemooreSent: November-20-11 11:02 PMTo: aspires-relationships Subject: AS Verbal challenges I am an NT married to an AS for 17 long years. Some years and some days or minutes are longer than others. We have only 4-legged furry kids at the moment.I am struggling at the moment with communication skills.My AS husband is not a verbally gifted man. He can compose electronically but the ability to talk and discuss feelings and deal with disagreements is very challenging. He is a brilliant guy in the technical world but not in the rest of it.We are having a huge fight right now…thus I write this.Those of you with AS, if you have a topic to discuss do you find that following the more NT style of how you compose a term paper very illogical if speaking?Silly Example:Name 3 things on the floor & explain why it is there.I feel like the way we are trained in English class is very much the way this NT would answer the question.English class paragraphs:IntroThing #1 on the floor & whyThing #2 on the floor & whyThing #3 on the floor & whyConclusionI feel that my AS husband would have a paragraph on:Thing #1 on the floor (very long paragraph)The history of stuff living on the floorThe origin of floorsThe history of carpetHow to score & stain concrete floorsHow dust mites live off our dead skin cellsThings #2 on the floor (forget the why. This is just a single word.)The footprints left from our forefathers and how they paved the way for hardwood flooringHow varnish is derived from organic & inorganic sourcesHow to maintain hardwood floorsHow only messy people have stuff on their floorsConclusionThing #3 on the floorThe history of dust mite allergies in the US How not vacuuming the floor helps kids develop better immune systemsIf there are 3 things on the floor you should stop what you are doing and put them up even if the house is on fireI need some verbal input from some other AS folks as I try very hard to not divorce my husband. I know some AS folks have basic 101 verbal issues and find communicating very difficult. Offer me some input for him as well as me to survive another day. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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