Re: laser technique question

[Guest guest]

Hi, we have the same respond laser & have treated several long black haired dogs including newfs without burning smell. I part the hair and apply probe directly to skin. I usually do between 2-4 J max at a site per pass. Part next section of fur while treating so you get even treatment and accurate location.

Hope this helps,

Rhea

 

Hi - I was wondering how everyone handles treating long haired black dogs with a laser. I have a newfie with horrible elbows and stifles coming in tomorrow that needs some laser therapy - the last time she was in I had a hard time treating her with the laser without smelling a little scortched hair (yikes).

I have a few black dachshunds that I treat and stepping off the laser from the skin a little, then doing 1 joule per cm2 at a time works well (then coming back over the area again, or doing a grid). This seems to prevent the smell of burnt hair.

I have a Respond laser with 500mW probe - I stepped it off just a little but with that long hair it is difficult to get close to the skin - I fear that if I get any farther away it won't be very effective.

Should I shave the areas? Should I wet it down? What do you think?

Thanks for any insight,

Rob Tope, DVM, CCRT

[Guest guest]

Hi, not sure of your model, but my Respond laser has a black cap that is for use

with black haired dogs, and works very well.

Liz Powers, MPT, CCRT

>

> > **

> >

> >

> > Hi - I was wondering how everyone handles treating long haired black dogs

> > with a laser. I have a newfie with horrible elbows and stifles coming in

> > tomorrow that needs some laser therapy - the last time she was in I had a

> > hard time treating her with the laser without smelling a little scortched

> > hair (yikes).

> > I have a few black dachshunds that I treat and stepping off the laser from

> > the skin a little, then doing 1 joule per cm2 at a time works well (then

> > coming back over the area again, or doing a grid). This seems to prevent

> > the smell of burnt hair.

> > I have a Respond laser with 500mW probe - I stepped it off just a little

> > but with that long hair it is difficult to get close to the skin - I fear

> > that if I get any farther away it won't be very effective.

> > Should I shave the areas? Should I wet it down? What do you think?

> > Thanks for any insight,

> > Rob Tope, DVM, CCRT

> >

> >

> >

>

[Guest guest]

Hi Rob,I would agree with Rhea to go for up to 4 joules only before moving the probe, and/or wetting the hair in the area.Laurie

Hi, not sure of your model, but my Respond laser has a black cap that is for use with black haired dogs, and works very well.

Liz Powers, MPT, CCRT

>

> > **

> >

> >

> > Hi - I was wondering how everyone handles treating long haired black dogs

> > with a laser. I have a newfie with horrible elbows and stifles coming in

> > tomorrow that needs some laser therapy - the last time she was in I had a

> > hard time treating her with the laser without smelling a little scortched

> > hair (yikes).

> > I have a few black dachshunds that I treat and stepping off the laser from

> > the skin a little, then doing 1 joule per cm2 at a time works well (then

> > coming back over the area again, or doing a grid). This seems to prevent

> > the smell of burnt hair.

> > I have a Respond laser with 500mW probe - I stepped it off just a little

> > but with that long hair it is difficult to get close to the skin - I fear

> > that if I get any farther away it won't be very effective.

> > Should I shave the areas? Should I wet it down? What do you think?

> > Thanks for any insight,

> > Rob Tope, DVM, CCRT

> >

> >

> >

>

Laurie Edge-, BScPT, MAnimSt(Animal Physio), CAFCI, CCRTCo-Owner,The Canine Fitness Centre Ltd.Calgary, AB, Canadawww.caninefitness.comCEO,Four Leg Rehab Inc.Past-Chair,The Animal Rehab DivisionThe Canadian Physiotherapy Associationwww.animalptcanada.comInstructor,The Canine Rehab Institutewww.caninerehabinstitute.comGuest Lecturer,Faculty of Veterinary MedicineThe University of Calgarywww.vet.ucalgary.caVice-President,International Association of Physical Therapists in Animal PracticeWorld Confederation for Physical Therapywww.wcpt.org

[Guest guest]

Rob,

Rather than be concerned about maximum about of total energy being the problem

you should be concerned and calculate the Incident Power Density (power output

of your laser divided by the area of the beam). American National Standards

Institute (ANSI) standard for the maximum incident power density that will not

cause injury to non-pigmented tissue is 200 mW/cm2 so pigmented tissues this is

most likely lower. The maximum total energy that can be deposited into tissue

w/out thermal damage ANSI reports is 200J/cm2, so you are a long way off that

amount of Joules based on recommendations you have received.

I deliver between 6-10J of focused energy for a trigger point but I do not

exceed incident power density of 200mw/cm2.

Most laser delivery devices are round and thus deliver a round beam. If your

device can be placed directly on the skin the calculation is straight forward -

3.14 x r2 (radius of the device in cm squared) = cm2. With your device

delivering power output of 500mW the treatment area needs to be at least 2.5

cm2.

Rick Wall, DVM

Certified Canine Rehabilitation Practitioner

Diplomate, American Academy of Pain Management

Certified Myofascial Trigger Point Therapist

Center for Veterinary Pain Management and Rehabilitation

The Woodlands, TX

www.vetrehabcenter.com

[Guest guest]

I think what both Rhea and I were referring to was specifically in regards to utilization of the Respond laser.It does seem to heat the hair and/or superficial skin and create the 'smell' of burning hair with over 4J per point.Not that we were recommending only using 2 - 4J/cm2 as a 'rule' - but just that with that particular device - you need to chop up your treatment (and Joules per point) into intervals of 2 - 4 joules...so then coming back to the same point perhaps two or three times to deliver the chosen dose.Cheers,LaurieRob,Rather than be concerned about maximum about of total energy being the problem you should be concerned and calculate the Incident Power Density (power output of your laser divided by the area of the beam). American National Standards Institute (ANSI) standard for the maximum incident power density that will not cause injury to non-pigmented tissue is 200 mW/cm2 so pigmented tissues this is most likely lower. The maximum total energy that can be deposited into tissue w/out thermal damage ANSI reports is 200J/cm2, so you are a long way off that amount of Joules based on recommendations you have received.I deliver between 6-10J of focused energy for a trigger point but I do not exceed incident power density of 200mw/cm2.Most laser delivery devices are round and thus deliver a round beam. If your device can be placed directly on the skin the calculation is straight forward - 3.14 x r2 (radius of the device in cm squared) = cm2. With your device delivering power output of 500mW the treatment area needs to be at least 2.5 cm2. Rick Wall, DVMCertified Canine Rehabilitation PractitionerDiplomate, American Academy of Pain ManagementCertified Myofascial Trigger Point TherapistCenter for Veterinary Pain Management and RehabilitationThe Woodlands, TXwww.vetrehabcenter.com------------------------------------

[Guest guest]

Laurie,

Thank you for your comments. I have never used a Respond and am unfamiliar with

the device but if I had a hint of anything burning with its use it would greatly

concern me.

I read on one of your other posts ------- " Bear in mind that your 500mW Respond

probe still only produces a 1cm beam of light " ---------------.

If this is the case then the incident power density greatly exceeds the

200mw/cm2 and thermal injury could result regardless if you chop up the

treatment. If it is super pulsed then thermal relaxation could occur and

perhaps lessen the risks of thermal injury.

Over the last 5-10 years therapeutic laser have really hit the veterinary

market, many of the companies maintain a very large presence at veterinary

meetings. The Class IVs have gained considerable popularity and new models

continue to increase power. Marketing information convinces many that the more

powerful the better! I personally know of several cases of severe thermal

injury from the improper use of laser devices, all of which went unreported.

There are too many of these units that end up in untrained hands and that scares

me, especially when promoted for use postoperative, when a patient maybe still

under effects of anesthesia and/or analgesics or in the neurologically

compromised patient. I applaud those like you on this list that have knowledge

of these devices and continue to share with us all!

Rick Wall