Re: Ketones - Watch them closely

[Guest guest]

I do understand that, . What I'm trying to point out is that you are

blaming the Ketones instead of the spiraling blood sugars. The Ketones are

only a symptom - not the problem. Absolutely people who are on insulin for

whatever reason have to watch their bg's much more closely than do those of

us who don't use it. There has never been a question about that. There is

also no question that DKA is a very dangerous situation and has to be held

in the back of every diabetic's mind. Also people who are on any kind of

medication for diabetes obviously have to have a doctor who is prescribing

it for them and they are not working with that doctor if they don't tell

them what they're doing to control their diabetes, including exercise and

including diet.

If you lose weight quickly for any reason there will be ketones in your

urine (and on your breath).

You're on a pump so you're obviously under the close attention of a doctor

but it didn't stop you from going into DKA, did it? You went into DKA

because you allowed your insulin to run out and mistakenly thought the

situation would be ok for a short while - now you know it isn't. I'm sorry

you went through that and I'm glad you can share that with us so other

pumpers and insulin users as well can realize that can happen if they are

lax in handling their insulin. But it wasn't caused by your diet.

People who are eating the wrong foods and who's bg's are out of control can

and often do end up in DKA.

People who are following a low carb diet and who are not cheating see

ketones in their urine because they are in BDK. Anyone who is diabetic

should be checking their blood sugars regularly. If they aren't they risk

DKA, they risk hypoglycemia, they risk blindness, neuropathy, kidney

disease, etc. But none of those things are the result of Atkins or any

other low carb diet.

And I'll say one more thing about checking blood sugars. Blood sugars can

soar if you have an infection anywhere in your body. It could be from an

infected cut, or from a virus like the flu or a bad cold, or from a

bacterial infection like strep throat, etc. When infections first begin you

don't even know you have it yet, but your bg's will rise - that will be

your first indication that something is wrong. If you follow a diet that

controls your bg's well that does NOT mean that you can stop checking your

bg's. They can change at any time, always check them regularly.

Meenie

> Meenie....

>

> I can speak from personal experience on this matter... now my case was

> probably drastic. #1. I am an insulin pump user. #2. This happened

> while going through the police academy.

>

> In order to maintain the rigors of the police academy... I had to test

> every hour when we were physical... and every hour when we were non

> physical. Note that it was a little over two months and I had lost

> almost 75 pounds through the whole ordeal. As I was loosing the fat I

> did have ketones in my urine... and had no problems whatsoever. Toward

> the end of the academy... and my body was starting to loose the excess

> fat... it started to dip into that which your body uses as an emergency

> reserve... my liver got pissed off and started dumping mass amounts of

> sugar into my system sporadically. My insulin pump ran out and I was

> driving home from the academy (two weeks before graduation). I lived

> 45 mins away and thought I could make it. My sugar was leveled at 116

> when I left. The Pump did the familiar Beep Beep Beep that told me

> that I was out of insulin. I had a very demanding day and had to be

> given glucose gel two hours earlier. I stopped midway and checked my

> sugar it was 262. When I got home it was 440 and I had a metallic

> taste. I took insulin but I had already spiraled into DKA. It was

> nasty... I started vomiting and the vomit had ketones in it... it was

> nasty, I called 911 and awoke in the hospital two days later... the Dr.

> pulled me from finishing the academy.

>

> Meenie, if you are messing with ketones... all I have to say is monitor

> yourself very closely. My Dr. likes the atkins diet but puts people on

> a monitoring regime that is really strict. It is so easy to spiral

> into DKA when you are on an insulin pump to start with because you have

> no timed release insulin in your system. When you are out of humulog,

> you are flat OUT!

>

> Be very cautious in advising others to go on this diet. Make sure they

> get checked and educated from their Doctor first.

>

> AKA

>

>

> > What I said, , is that there is a difference between DKA and

> BDK. You

> > know if you are controlling your bg's, if you are not then ketones in

> your

> > urine can be a sign of DKA and that is bad.

> > However, if you are losing weight AND YOUR BG'S ARE IN CONTROLLED

> LEVELS

> > then having ketones in your urine is not dangerous.

> > If anyone does not understand the difference in that they certainly

> have no

> > business doing anything that is not under their doctors immediate

> control.

>

>

>

>

[Guest guest]

however I do attend sessions at the Josyln Research

> Institute and they really have mixed feelings about the Atkins diet.

The truth about this statement is they don't know much about the Atkins diet

at all. Fortunately studies are being done now. Prelim. results have shown

excellent results.

The problem is that people went to school, college, and even beyond for many

years and were taught that low fat, high carb was THE miracle diet for

everyone. Yet none of these people can answer the burning question of why,

then , has America become a nation of greatly overweight people with a

tremendously increased incidence of heart disease, diabetes and high blood

pressure.

They don't have any proof that people on Atkins need to be watched any more

vigorously than people on low fat because until the past year there have

been no studies done. This is what they threw in the face of Atkins for

years - no studies to prove what he says about his diet - he has 30 some

years of case histories to back him, but thats beside the point.

Of course people on atkins need to be monitored. Anyone who is diabetic

needs to be monitored, and if their doctor hasn't taught them to do that he

or she should be tarred and feathered.

The point you aren't getting, and that I can't make any clearer, is that

ketones don't cause DKA. DKA does cause ketones to show up so they can be

an indicator, but that is all they are, they are not the enemy. Having

ketones in your urine due to normal weight loss is no reason to run

screaming to the doctor. If you're losing weight you will more than likely

see ketones. If you are losing weight because your bg's are sky high, not

because you are watching your diet, then you do indeed need help. If you

are on any weight loss program, Atkins included, you are far far less likely

to have a problem with DKA. OF COURSE if you are on insulin, you have to

take it responsibly. If you don't , then please do not blame your diet for

causing your DKA.

Meenie

[Guest guest]

Actually the Atkins diet....or weight managment programs similar in

nature....have been used in hospital and clinic settings for many

years. Technically known as Protein Sparing Modifed Fasts, they can be

done using food or liquid products (i.e, Optifast, Medifast, Medibase,

etc. are all examples of Protein Sparing Modified Fast programs).

They are typically used in patients who need to lose 30 pounds or more

and are frequently the recommended diet for those that are morbidly

obese (defined as 100 pounds or 100 percent of ideal body weight). They

frequently show excellent results in terms of weight loss, lowering of

lipids, control of blood sugars and blood pressures.

The difference is that patients are placed on these diets for a limited

amount of time (usually no longer than 4 months), encouraged to exercise

as they can, and slowly weaned back to low fat, low calorie when the

weight reduction phase of the diet is complete. Those that have not met

their weight goal can be placed back on the PSMF after a period of

" rest " (usually 4 to 6 weeks). Monitoring (weights, blood pressure

checks, bloodwork) is pretty closely done in these programs.

I've worked with folks with hypertension, hyperlipidemia, diabetes,

arthritis, heart disease, etc. on these diets both in private practice

and in a hospital setting and with monitoring they do fine.

One thing to watch out for; uric acid levels. The higher protein intake

coupled with rapid weight loss can trigger an attack of gout in some

individuals susceptible to this. While we may take folks off their

antihypertensives or diabetic medication while on the diet, we usually

encourged those who were on gout medication to continue taking this

(along with large amounts of water) throughout the program.

Gail

I try to take one day at a time but sometimes several days attack me at

once.

[Guest guest]

I'm hard pressed to believe that the people at Joslyn don't know much about

Atkins. I think the diet has been around longer than the clinic. They might not

agree with it but that's not the same as not knowing about it

Meenie wrote:

> however I do attend sessions at the Josyln Research

> > Institute and they really have mixed feelings about the Atkins diet.

>

> The truth about this statement is they don't know much about the Atkins diet

> at all. Fortunately studies are being done now. Prelim. results have shown

> excellent results.

> The problem is that people went to school, college, and even beyond for many

> years and were taught that low fat, high carb was THE miracle diet for

> everyone. Yet none of these people can answer the burning question of why,

> then , has America become a nation of greatly overweight people with a

> tremendously increased incidence of heart disease, diabetes and high blood

> pressure.

> They don't have any proof that people on Atkins need to be watched any more

> vigorously than people on low fat because until the past year there have

> been no studies done. This is what they threw in the face of Atkins for

> years - no studies to prove what he says about his diet - he has 30 some

> years of case histories to back him, but thats beside the point.

> Of course people on atkins need to be monitored. Anyone who is diabetic

> needs to be monitored, and if their doctor hasn't taught them to do that he

> or she should be tarred and feathered.

> The point you aren't getting, and that I can't make any clearer, is that

> ketones don't cause DKA. DKA does cause ketones to show up so they can be

> an indicator, but that is all they are, they are not the enemy. Having

> ketones in your urine due to normal weight loss is no reason to run

> screaming to the doctor. If you're losing weight you will more than likely

> see ketones. If you are losing weight because your bg's are sky high, not

> because you are watching your diet, then you do indeed need help. If you

> are on any weight loss program, Atkins included, you are far far less likely

> to have a problem with DKA. OF COURSE if you are on insulin, you have to

> take it responsibly. If you don't , then please do not blame your diet for

> causing your DKA.

> Meenie

[Guest guest]

Meenie ...

Just wanted you to know ... I've just finished my first week on the Atkins

induction diet, and I'm very, very pleased with the results so far. I've

already seen a difference in my bg levels ... they've gone down slightly

each day, and I'm starting to adjust my insulin to a lower dose (with

doctor's approval) to accommodate the lower bg's. But the BEST thing is the

huge change I'm experiencing in carb cravings. I was a true carb addict,

but what you told me has turned out to be true ... after the first four

days, I experienced a dramatic change in those cravings. I find myself being

satisfied without those constant carbs, and on much less food. I know it's

only been a week, but I'm very happy with the results so far. (The first

four days were basically wretched as my body adjusted, but if my body

continues to feel as it has for the past two days, I'll be very, very

happy.)

Thanks again for your suggestions, example and encouragement.

Kathleen

>

>Reply-To: diabetesegroups

>To: <diabetesegroups>

>Subject: Re: Ketones - Watch them closely

>Date: Tue, 23 Jan 2001 17:34:08 -0500

>

>however I do attend sessions at the Josyln Research

> > Institute and they really have mixed feelings about the Atkins diet.

>

>The truth about this statement is they don't know much about the Atkins

>diet

>at all. Fortunately studies are being done now. Prelim. results have

>shown

>excellent results.

>The problem is that people went to school, college, and even beyond for

>many

>years and were taught that low fat, high carb was THE miracle diet for

>everyone. Yet none of these people can answer the burning question of why,

>then , has America become a nation of greatly overweight people with a

>tremendously increased incidence of heart disease, diabetes and high blood

>pressure.

>They don't have any proof that people on Atkins need to be watched any more

>vigorously than people on low fat because until the past year there have

>been no studies done. This is what they threw in the face of Atkins for

>years - no studies to prove what he says about his diet - he has 30 some

>years of case histories to back him, but thats beside the point.

>Of course people on atkins need to be monitored. Anyone who is diabetic

>needs to be monitored, and if their doctor hasn't taught them to do that he

>or she should be tarred and feathered.

>The point you aren't getting, and that I can't make any clearer, is that

>ketones don't cause DKA. DKA does cause ketones to show up so they can be

>an indicator, but that is all they are, they are not the enemy. Having

>ketones in your urine due to normal weight loss is no reason to run

>screaming to the doctor. If you're losing weight you will more than likely

>see ketones. If you are losing weight because your bg's are sky high, not

>because you are watching your diet, then you do indeed need help. If you

>are on any weight loss program, Atkins included, you are far far less

>likely

>to have a problem with DKA. OF COURSE if you are on insulin, you have to

>take it responsibly. If you don't , then please do not blame your diet for

>causing your DKA.

> Meenie

>

>

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[Guest guest]

Kathleen,

I'm so happy for you I'm sure you'll continue to be delighted. It takes

a week or two for your bg's to adjust completely (sometimes the am one takes

a couple of weeks longer) but as you said, they get better every day

I hope you checked out the Atkins_Support_List. You'll be thrilled with the

info they can give you (including some great recipes, especially for things

like quick snacks you can take with you to work, etc. )

Keep up the good work, you're gonna love it

Meenie

>

> Just wanted you to know ... I've just finished my first week on the Atkins

> induction diet, and I'm very, very pleased with the results so far. I've

> already seen a difference in my bg levels ... they've gone down slightly

> each day, and I'm starting to adjust my insulin to a lower dose (with

> doctor's approval) to accommodate the lower bg's. But the BEST thing is

the

> huge change I'm experiencing in carb cravings. I was a true carb addict,

> but what you told me has turned out to be true ... after the first four

> days, I experienced a dramatic change in those cravings.

[Guest guest]

I don't know why you find that unusual. No studies had been done on it

before the past year. It isn't taught in nutrition classes in college, and

it is ignored by dieticians and nutritionists for the most part. When most

dieticians refer to it they say how unhealthy a no carb diet is, so you know

immediately they don't have the faintest idea bout atkins because it is not

by any means a no carb diet.

Meenie

> I'm hard pressed to believe that the people at Joslyn don't know much

about

> Atkins. I think the diet has been around longer than the clinic. They

might not

> agree with it but that's not the same as not knowing about it

>

[Guest guest]

Actually, quite a bit of research has been done on Protein Sparing

Modified Fasts. Lots of research on this subject, mostly to treat

morbid obesity. Blackburn has published many articles on this

topic in medical journals.

Most registered dietitians are quite familiar with it; I learned the

principles of this diet as an undergraduate in nutrition 20+ years ago.

Gail

I try to take one day at a time but sometimes several days attack me at

once.