Re: Alice's request

[Guest guest]

Dear Carol,

Life is so much simpler than we all tend to make it here. An artist, or at least me, a painter, feels a joy when totally engrossed in painting. The feeling just swells up in me, and I call this one of those "peak' experiences. I get it too from being engrossed in studying, often. I often employ imagination..visualization, isn't that part of being an artist?T hat to me is an opportunity to be thankful for that feeling when it comes.

On the other hand, I would call visits from Sophia the path to learning wisdom. They wouldn't have to come luminously, would they?

A numinous experience, to me, is somewhat different and comes unbidden and wrapped in a big bow. It is pure gift, for which we do nothing. We sure don't earn it. It is in fact a grace.

It is true that Jung warns about possible, or maybe inevitable inflation, but after falling off the earth once into hubris, we learn to guard against it, I hope. ( if not we could be in deep trouble soon) Alice too, warns about this real possibility. In my mind, Alice (that's what I learned too.) is like my good, wonderful old spiritual director of the "old " church, who wanted no one to mention it, and if possible some even wanted to do away with those "consolations" and tended to blame the person who received the grace, or if not that, at least down played it. I loved the old pastor, but he was very worried that people would go off on some self serving fantasy. I think he needn't have worried so, personality and character have much to do with our spirituality in all respects. But there is wisdom there..if one considerers everyone full of original sin which many old missionaries were. I prefer the "original blessing' which makes our G-d rejoice with us.We are madly loved, and our sins are not even considered at those time.

But I no longer feel one has to almost apologize for what comes to us without our even being aware it is coming. I find those experiences come in time of meditation and/or prayer. It is a small taste of the finally Unity of all things, to me personally.

In spite of what some people say, and I have Jung and many others on my side, the purpose of these graces is often to increase the faith of the experiencer. It allows us to "feel" something of the love, and also to become certain that we have indeed met an Other.After that doubt is impossible, for everyone, I should think.

Why so many people are so afraid for the souls of those so blessed is a mystery to me. It doesn't make anyone more holy, more "good, more "in" more favored. It can give certitude because someone who has experienced something knows what he has experienced. Many many famous and many many more little people have been so blessed. Why can we not just accept the Goodness, with thanks and joy, and go on with a blessing? I don;t even see where the ego comes into it. We receive, we accept, we thank. Our ego didn't initiate anything, and if inflation sneaks around, it is necessary to remember one does not earn a numinous experience.One is possibly the greatest sinner around.

I always wonder what those who hear about or even experience are afraid of...if that's what it is. I can so well remember my talks with my pastor, and his almost dread of hearing any such thing. He was very old , very rigid and from the dour part of Ireland. His theology was one of suffering. That is what he felt we were here for. The more the better for our souls.But I loved him.

Sorry, my faith is different and like creation theology based on a different Other. Instead of wariness, open thanks would seem the right behavior. We usually have been taught to say thank you for gifts.

I come on strong about this, because I have met opposition of all types, and resent some people for trying to put fear where thanksgiving should be, especially for those who have not yet had a wonderful awe-full experience. ( if the saints hadn't written about their own experiences we would never know what is possible in the grace of G-d. I doubt they could be accused of bragging, or even hubris, perhaps some normal everyday people should mention to others that this grace is available to everyone, not just the "saintly", but those who are learning to love.

But, to your question. personally I believe both type of experiences are from the spirit...how else could anyone create? I personally can not imagine not noticing a sudden joyful or any other, even bad moment that came my way out of the ordinary.

Those who really know, are usually those who are close to their spirituality and spend much time in communing with their Lord....the Other...the One....the Self. I find it wonderful to read their writings. Full- of- wonder.

Personally, I am not sure that all wonder, all awe, all love doesn't change. Why would the Aquarian age be so different? Are we not still the same flesh and blood?

Carol, I do think you are one of the elect. There is no one who is not elected for the same end, in my opinion.It is as you say, a matter of paying attention.

Toni

Jung is right about one thing. most Christians feel inferior to somebody more saintly( so they think). it is built into us at birth, I think. :-). But what he describes, seems to me to smack of envy, because they do not realize the gift if for everyone.

Alice's request

Jung wrote:

"You are surprised at my reaction to your avowed faith is a personal meeting with Christ. I thought I ought not to conceal from you that such an avowal has a thoroughly intimidating effect on many people, because they feel (with good reason, I think) that this only happens to one of the elect, who has been singled out from the human community of the unblest, the wayward, the unbelievers, the doubters and the God-forsaken, and, especially if they are religious people, it makes them feel inferior. Many theologians make themselves unpopu­lar on that account and so make the doctor, who is expected to have a better understanding of the ordinary, uninitiated person, appear as a more desirable proposition."

As an artist I have had to come to terms (to the best of my abilities) with the numinous experience. All of my paintings begin with such an experience but they are not earth shaking events, well usually not. I think they happen to everyone but most people hardly notice them. Could this be an Aquarian way of experiencing the sacred, a new way of experiencing it? It's like Alice and Toni described: being awed by the everyday world. It reminds me of what Alice always says about finding the sacred in the commonplace. Sometimes it's a synchronistic event or a series of them. Sometimes it's what I call a spontaneous visualization (seeing something pop up in the mind's eye) or a suggestion from the inner voice. And of course there is the dream. In these ways G-d/Sophia approaches me, as I know she does everyone. But you must be very attentive, it would be so easy to think, "Wow, that's amazing" and then go on with your day. After all it takes time and effort to understand that you are being given a series of messages about a possible path to take in your own life. Each event is a continuation and evolution of the image being presented. My art is an expression of this series of images that the spirit provides. Its value for others, if there is one, would be to provide a point of departure and recognition for those who, willingly or unwillingly, are encountering the unseen world.

Could it be that the experience of the numinous is changing or maybe being added to? Doesn't Jung write somewhere that we now experience the spirit as something coming from below as well as something coming from above?

Cheers,

Carol(a visionary who doesn't feel part of the elect)

[Guest guest]

Aren't we all part of the elect as some point in some life? Don't all souls get saved?

RoyCarol Spicuzza wrote:

Jung wrote:

"You are surprised at my reaction to your avowed faith is a personal meeting with Christ. I thought I ought not to conceal from you that such an avowal has a thoroughly intimidating effect on many people, because they feel (with good reason, I think) that this only happens to one of the elect, who has been singled out from the human community of the unblest, the wayward, the unbelievers, the doubters and the God-forsaken, and, especially if they are religious people, it makes them feel inferior. Many theologians make themselves unpopu­lar on that account and so make the doctor, who is expected to have a better understanding of the ordinary, uninitiated person, appear as a more desirable proposition."

As an artist I have had to come to terms (to the best of my abilities) with the numinous experience. All of my paintings begin with such an experience but they are not earth shaking events, well usually not. I think they happen to everyone but most people hardly notice them. Could this be an Aquarian way of experiencing the sacred, a new way of experiencing it? It's like Alice and Toni described: being awed by the everyday world. It reminds me of what Alice always says about finding the sacred in the commonplace. Sometimes it's a synchronistic event or a series of them. Sometimes it's what I call a spontaneous visualization (seeing something pop up in the mind's eye) or a suggestion from the inner voice. And of course there is the dream. In these ways G-d/Sophia approaches me, as I know she does everyone. But you must be very attentive, it would be so easy to think, "Wow, that's amazing" and then go on with your day.

After all it takes time and effort to understand that you are being given a series of messages about a possible path to take in your own life. Each event is a continuation and evolution of the image being presented. My art is an expression of this series of images that the spirit provides. Its value for others, if there is one, would be to provide a point of departure and recognition for those who, willingly or unwillingly, are encountering the unseen world.

Could it be that the experience of the numinous is changing or maybe being added to? Doesn't Jung write somewhere that we now experience the spirit as something coming from below as well as something coming from above?

Cheers,

Carol(a visionary who doesn't feel part of the elect)"Our highest duty as human beings is to search out a means whereby beings may be freed from all kinds of unsatisfactory experience and suffering."H.H. Tenzin Gyatso, the 14th. Dalai Lama

[Guest guest]

Dear Toni,

Thank you for your thoughtful post. I'll be out of town for a day or two and will reply to yours and the rest when I get back.

Carol

Life is so much simpler than we all tend to make it here. An artist, or at least me, a painter, feels a joy when totally engrossed in painting. The feeling just swells up in me, and I call this one of those "peak' experiences. I get it too from being engrossed in studying, often. I often employ imagination..visualization, isn't that part of being an artist?T hat to me is an opportunity to be thankful for that feeling when it comes.

On the other hand, I would call visits from Sophia the path to learning wisdom. They wouldn't have to come luminously, would they?

[Guest guest]

You're a painter! Anything on the web?

Wish all I felt when I painted was total joy. Sometimes it's torture.

It seems like when the visualizing happens that it's not "I". Yes, I hope I don't forget too often.

For me Sophia is the pattern of my fate. So we're saying the same thing?! What attracted me to this list is that Alice saw synchronicities as Sophia's winks.

I see what you mean about it not having to be numinous cause maybe it's happening in a different way from the way it happens to me. In fact I guess I don't have any friends that work quite the way I do. But there must me some.

And you're right, they come unbidden like a gift.

I never felt I had to apologize for the experience, cause if you remember I've never been part of a church.

Yes, we are fortunate to have experiences of the Other. I always think of von Franz explanation of Jung's idea of the spirit: "Spirit is that factor in the inner field of vision of vision that generates images and organizes them into a meaningful order..."

Carol

Good luck with doc+

Life is so much simpler than we all tend to make it here. An artist, or at least me, a painter, feels a joy when totally engrossed in painting. The feeling just swells up in me, and I call this one of those "peak' experiences. I get it too from being engrossed in studying, often. I often employ imagination..visualization, isn't that part of being an artist?T hat to me is an opportunity to be thankful for that feeling when it comes

On the other hand, I would call visits from Sophia the path to learning wisdom. They wouldn't have to come luminously, would they?

A numinous experience, to me, is somewhat different and comes unbidden and wrapped in a big bow. It is pure gift, for which we do nothing. We sure don't earn it. It is in fact a grace.

It is true that Jung warns about possible, or maybe inevitable inflation, but after falling off the earth once into hubris, we learn to guard against it, I hope. ( if not we could be in deep trouble soon) Alice too, warns about this real possibility. In my mind, Alice (that's what I learned too.) is like my good, wonderful old spiritual director of the "old " church, who wanted no one to mention it, and if possible some even wanted to do away with those "consolations" and tended to blame the person who received the grace, or if not that, at least down played it. I loved the old pastor, but he was very worried that people would go off on some self serving fantasy. I think he needn't have worried so, personality and character have much to do with our spirituality in all respects. But there is wisdom there..if one considerers everyone full of original sin which many old missionaries were. I prefer the "original blessing' which makes our G-d rejoice with us.We are madly loved, and our sins are not even considered at those time.

But I no longer feel one has to almost apologize for what comes to us without our even being aware it is coming. I find those experiences come in time of meditation and/or prayer. It is a small taste of the finally Unity of all things, to me personally.

In spite of what some people say, and I have Jung and many others on my side, the purpose of these graces is often to increase the faith of the experiencer. It allows us to "feel" something of the love, and also to become certain that we have indeed met an Other.After that doubt is impossible, for everyone, I should think.

Why so many people are so afraid for the souls of those so blessed is a mystery to me. It doesn't make anyone more holy, more "good, more "in" more favored. It can give certitude because someone who has experienced something knows what he has experienced. Many many famous and many many more little people have been so blessed. Why can we not just accept the Goodness, with thanks and joy, and go on with a blessing? I don;t even see where the ego comes into it. We receive, we accept, we thank. Our ego didn't initiate anything, and if inflation sneaks around, it is necessary to remember one does not earn a numinous experience.One is possibly the greatest sinner around.

I always wonder what those who hear about or even experience are afraid of...if that's what it is. I can so well remember my talks with my pastor, and his almost dread of hearing any such thing. He was very old , very rigid and from the dour part of Ireland. His theology was one of suffering. That is what he felt we were here for. The more the better for our souls.But I loved him.

Sorry, my faith is different and like creation theology based on a different Other. Instead of wariness, open thanks would seem the right behavior. We usually have been taught to say thank you for gifts.

I come on strong about this, because I have met opposition of all types, and resent some people for trying to put fear where thanksgiving should be, especially for those who have not yet had a wonderful awe-full experience. ( if the saints hadn't written about their own experiences we would never know what is possible in the grace of G-d. I doubt they could be accused of bragging, or even hubris, perhaps some normal everyday people should mention to others that this grace is available to everyone, not just the "saintly", but those who are learning to love.

But, to your question. personally I believe both type of experiences are from the spirit...how else could anyone create? I personally can not imagine not noticing a sudden joyful or any other, even bad moment that came my way out of the ordinary.

Those who really know, are usually those who are close to their spirituality and spend much time in communing with their Lord....the Other...the One....the Self. I find it wonderful to read their writings. Full- of- wonder.

Personally, I am not sure that all wonder, all awe, all love doesn't change. Why would the Aquarian age be so different? Are we not still the same flesh and blood?

Carol, I do think you are one of the elect. There is no one who is not elected for the same end, in my opinion.It is as you say, a matter of paying attention.

Toni

Jung is right about one thing. most Christians feel inferior to somebody more saintly( so they think). it is built into us at birth, I think. :-). But what he describes, seems to me to smack of envy, because they do not realize the gift if for everyone.

Alice's request

Jung wrote:

"You are surprised at my reaction to your avowed faith is a personal meeting with Christ. I thought I ought not to conceal from you that such an avowal has a thoroughly intimidating effect on many people, because they feel (with good reason, I think) that this only happens to one of the elect, who has been singled out from the human community of the unblest, the wayward, the unbelievers, the doubters and the God-forsaken, and, especially if they are religious people, it makes them feel inferior. Many theologians make themselves unpopu­lar on that account and so make the doctor, who is expected to have a better understanding of the ordinary, uninitiated person, appear as a more desirable proposition."

As an artist I have had to come to terms (to the best of my abilities) with the numinous experience. All of my paintings begin with such an experience but they are not earth shaking events, well usually not. I think they happen to everyone but most people hardly notice them. Could this be an Aquarian way of experiencing the sacred, a new way of experiencing it? It's like Alice and Toni described: being awed by the everyday world. It reminds me of what Alice always says about finding the sacred in the commonplace. Sometimes it's a synchronistic event or a series of them. Sometimes it's what I call a spontaneous visualization (seeing something pop up in the mind's eye) or a suggestion from the inner voice. And of course there is the dream. In these ways G-d/Sophia approaches me, as I know she does everyone. But you must be very attentive, it would be so easy to think, "Wow, that's amazing" and then go on with your day. After all it takes time and effort to understand that you are being given a series of messages about a possible path to take in your own life. Each event is a continuation and evolution of the image being presented. My art is an expression of this series of images that the spirit provides. Its value for others, if there is one, would be to provide a point of departure and recognition for those who, willingly or unwillingly, are encountering the unseen world.

Could it be that the experience of the numinous is changing or maybe being added to? Doesn't Jung write somewhere that we now experience the spirit as something coming from below as well as something coming from above?

Cheers,

Carol(a visionary who doesn't feel part of the elect)"Our highest duty as human beings is to search out a means whereby beings may be freed from all kinds of unsatisfactory experience and suffering."H.H. Tenzin Gyatso, the 14th. Dalai Lama

[Guest guest]

Aren't we all part of the elect as some point in some life? Don't all souls get saved?

Roy

C: Are we? I guess Andy says we all get our fifteen minutes.

Don't know about saving. I'm the stray cat.

[Guest guest]

Dear Carol,

Saved from what? What is all this about being saved?

Originally in Christianity it meant (after 325 C.E. being saved from hell because of original sin.( Actually hell was seen as someplace G-d was not)

Since you don't sound weighed down by original sin, why worry about being saved?

I don't get it.

No we are not perfect, but who expects us to be more than the human beings we are living up to the best they can?

One must have a very different G-d in mind, if we fear not being "saved"

Many of us have to go back to chapter one in our lives to find these stubborn remnants which we actually no longer have faith in.

Isn't it possible if the Divine exists, as I know he/she/it does, that it would be a loving and concerned force, as well as a judging one, as all mankind since the beginning has looked for, prayed for and sought?

Isn't it possible, that nothing created ever dies? That we go on to whatever is next in joy and anticipation?

All those numinous experiences are there to give one that courage. Many have discovered they can start on that path right here in this world now.

It bears real thinking on, I think.

Toni

ginal Message -----

From: Carol Spicuzza

To: JUNG-FIRE

Sent: Tuesday, July 05, 2005 12:55 PM

Subject: Re: Alice's request

Aren't we all part of the elect as some point in some life? Don't all souls get saved?

Roy

C: Are we? I guess Andy says we all get our fifteen minutes.

Don't know about saving. I'm the stray cat.

[Guest guest]

That was the other person (Roy) talking about being saved. Sorry I didn't format that email better.

I don't know anything about being saved.

Carol

Re: Alice's request

Aren't we all part of the elect as some point in some life? Don't all souls get saved?

Roy

C: Are we? I guess Andy says we all get our fifteen minutes.

Don't know about saving. I'm the stray cat.

"Our highest duty as human beings is to search out a means whereby beings may be freed from all kinds of unsatisfactory experience and suffering."H.H. Tenzin Gyatso, the 14th. Dalai Lama

[Guest guest]

Redemption might easily be real. We indulge ourselves in the use of our powers. The Circle of Hell are real and not just a figment in Dante's imagination.

We go to psychotherapy to regain soul, be "re-graced" as it were. Dissociation from our feelings leads to depression and loss of the sense of self.

To regain the sense of self, one looks inward to find a new center outside the leaden hues of a failed ego-bound consciousness.

This leads to the integration of positive aspects of the Shadow, aspects of the Self that have been denied or buried.

But all this is not enough. Passing through the Shadow we see what it is in us which is anti-Self and helped put us there where we began.

Having passed through that veil, and getting why we have the wits we do once commented Jung, we can experience re-birth, and then go on a couple of decades until we have the Second Marriage of Alchemy, the First having been that experience that led to re-birth.

So, redemption is real.

Royvienna19311 wrote:

Dear Carol,

Saved from what? What is all this about being saved?

Originally in Christianity it meant (after 325 C.E. being saved from hell because of original sin.( Actually hell was seen as someplace G-d was not)

Since you don't sound weighed down by original sin, why worry about being saved?

I don't get it.

No we are not perfect, but who expects us to be more than the human beings we are living up to the best they can?

One must have a very different G-d in mind, if we fear not being "saved"

Many of us have to go back to chapter one in our lives to find these stubborn remnants which we actually no longer have faith in.

Isn't it possible if the Divine exists, as I know he/she/it does, that it would be a loving and concerned force, as well as a judging one, as all mankind since the beginning has looked for, prayed for and sought?

Isn't it possible, that nothing created ever dies? That we go on to whatever is next in joy and anticipation?

All those numinous experiences are there to give one that courage. Many have discovered they can start on that path right here in this world now.

It bears real thinking on, I think.

Toni

ginal Message -----

From: Carol Spicuzza

To: JUNG-FIRE

Sent: Tuesday, July 05, 2005 12:55 PM

Subject: Re: Alice's request

Aren't we all part of the elect as some point in some life? Don't all souls get saved?

Roy

C: Are we? I guess Andy says we all get our fifteen minutes.

Don't know about saving. I'm the stray cat.

"Our highest duty as human beings is to search out a means whereby beings may be freed from all kinds of unsatisfactory experience and suffering."H.H. Tenzin Gyatso, the 14th. Dalai Lama

[Guest guest]

Dear Roy,

Redemption as I understood you dealt with the Christian myth. Sorry if you meant individuation instead.

What you describe sounds like an anemic "individuation" process.

Nothing is that simply and that scheduled, and rebirth in my world is not something that comes at me, but a suffering decision to turn oneself around. Sprit and will are necessary for this, and I never could imagine a step by unemotional step as you portray it. It is in the life of each person in whom it occurs, a "big" event and complete change...and it is not meant as something one gives in order to receive more...what redemption?

Your schedule reminds me of a railroad schedule, or a 12 step program. human beings do not usually march together. Spirit may lead us, but not always at the same speed or in the same way. Furthermore I doubt many of us ever get completely rid of the Shadow, or even assume we are read for the spiritual marriage at the end. To me, you assume an awful lot. I imagine those who persevere to your explained end amount to 1% of less of the inhabitants of the world. Where do the other 99% go for their "redemption"?

The "redemption" you speak about is a lonely and personal thing. I don't believe it has to do with one's wits, but with one's chosen path in life and with one's goal for oneself. Being reborn is not an exercise, it is a major upheaval of one's entire world and consciousness. Furthermore, to my way of thinking, we don't "have done" with any part. Its not like graduation from one class to the next, it is a continuing going back and filling in, going forward and stopping for a while...it is missing something we were not aware of and going back to find it. It is in fact out individual path through life if we deem it so. Million don't care, don't have time or awareness enough even to begin. At least in the Christian myth, everyone is redeemed.

I speak much closer to Jung in MDR as he neared the end of his life, than all these possible ways you describe to get from here to there. His humility , for his own path..stands out far above what you write here, as the way to redemption.

But, hey, I described mine only. I don't make plans or goals for others, and I do allow everyone their own approach to the spiritual life as well as to individuation..There is no 'cookie cutter" approach to life, and millions who would love psychoanalysis cannot afford it. The same with psychotherapy. They must instead stick to the collective and its participation mystique, or trudge out totally alone.

Again, your word 'redemption' does not convey to me what you seem to define it as. I think of it as spiritual, and would much prefer 'individuation" as the psychological meaning.

How can anyone consider another person's path, like Zen, for example torture.? I am not a Buddhist, but I too practice meditation in the same very general way, and I find the practice complete opposite the word "torture" It does take commitment and discipline...as do all worthwhile ways.. but it works as has been proven through the ages..maybe that is what is 'torturous " in your mind, commitment , discipline are sometimes very hard for a time.. The end of all practices is the same as the one you proclaim, I believe you would say????

..... being no one's guru or master, and hardly on the way myself, all I say here is my own opinion. I am not about to describe how it "should " be done by those who start out...but I suggest alternatives.( with much thanks to Jung and all his works and an active spiritual life of my own)

What is real? Are you proclaiming the absolute truth? Jung would disagree with that assertion made by any human being. One can only speak from one's own personal experience.And that applies only to the experiencer.

don't mind how you read, but I think most people reading Jung would consider proclaiming absolute truth impossible.That is not an argument up for discussion...in my world. I mention it only because I want you to know I believe it is your truth....whether it matters to you or not.( One of my overwhelming faults is that I tend to get prickly when someone tries to lay down the law, and applies his truth to all of us....that is my understanding of declarative sentences like "So, redemption is real. " I also tend to agree with Jung in most things.I take him as an authority on his own work. I also love Dante's imagination, and that was exactly what it is.

Toni

Original Message -----

From: Roy Cameron

To: JUNG-FIRE

Sent: Tuesday, July 05, 2005 10:07 PM

Subject: Re: Alice's request

Redemption might easily be real. We indulge ourselves in the use of our powers. The Circle of Hell are real and not just a figment in Dante's imagination.

We go to psychotherapy to regain soul, be "re-graced" as it were. Dissociation from our feelings leads to depression and loss of the sense of self.

To regain the sense of self, one looks inward to find a new center outside the leaden hues of a failed ego-bound consciousness.

This leads to the integration of positive aspects of the Shadow, aspects of the Self that have been denied or buried.

But all this is not enough. Passing through the Shadow we see what it is in us which is anti-Self and helped put us there where we began.

Having passed through that veil, and getting why we have the wits we do once commented Jung, we can experience re-birth, and then go on a couple of decades until we have the Second Marriage of Alchemy, the First having been that experience that led to re-birth.

So, redemption is real.

Roy

[Guest guest]

Uh, don't agree. Sounds like is an impression of how

it feels. What I have written about is both from Jung

and experience, experience I never thougtht I would

have.

Yes, alchemy is very similar to the 12 step process of

AA, as the founder of AA got his clue from Jung:

substitute the real " Spirit " for the " spirits " of

alcohol.

There is too much romantization of individuation by

emotional types who run away from the rigor of it all.

The schedule does not exist railroad like and I never

implied or said that it did.

It may take a lifetime or a couple of decades.

I was, for example, very surprised when I " married my

anima " in a series of dreams.

I had no idea that this even existed nor what it meant

at the time.

The answer arrived about five years later when I was

teaching English to an Italian Jungian analyst to get

her sharp for her seminars in the US on her book on

Dante, called " A Ricerca di Beatrice " .

We reviewed essentially all of Jung's notions in

English, and there was almost no disagreement between

us.

There was also the notion of the misuse of or lack of

use of reason, so prevalent in our world.

Intellectuals don't feel enough and romantic

emotional types want everything to be an insoluble

mystery.

Then we can sit around and ponder Jung and not

individuate because it is so much more comfortable not

to.

Roy

--- vienna19311 wrote:

> Dear Roy,

>

> Redemption as I understood you dealt with the

> Christian myth. Sorry if you meant individuation

> instead.

> What you describe sounds like an anemic

> " individuation " process.

>

> Nothing is that simply and that scheduled, and

> rebirth in my world is not something that comes at

> me, but a suffering decision to turn oneself around.

> Sprit and will are necessary for this, and I never

> could imagine a step by unemotional step as you

> portray it. It is in the life of each person in whom

> it occurs, a " big " event and complete change...and

> it is not meant as something one gives in order to

> receive more...what redemption?

>

> Your schedule reminds me of a railroad schedule, or

> a 12 step program. human beings do not usually march

> together. Spirit may lead us, but not always at the

> same speed or in the same way. Furthermore I doubt

> many of us ever get completely rid of the Shadow, or

> even assume we are read for the spiritual marriage

> at the end. To me, you assume an awful lot. I

> imagine those who persevere to your explained end

> amount to 1% of less of the inhabitants of the

> world. Where do the other 99% go for their

> " redemption " ?

>

> The " redemption " you speak about is a lonely and

> personal thing. I don't believe it has to do with

> one's wits, but with one's chosen path in life and

> with one's goal for oneself. Being reborn is not an

> exercise, it is a major upheaval of one's entire

> world and consciousness. Furthermore, to my way of

> thinking, we don't " have done " with any part. Its

> not like graduation from one class to the next, it

> is a continuing going back and filling in, going

> forward and stopping for a while...it is missing

> something we were not aware of and going back to

> find it. It is in fact out individual path through

> life if we deem it so. Million don't care, don't

> have time or awareness enough even to begin. At

> least in the Christian myth, everyone is redeemed.

>

> I speak much closer to Jung in MDR as he neared the

> end of his life, than all these possible ways you

> describe to get from here to there. His humility ,

> for his own path..stands out far above what you

> write here, as the way to redemption.

>

> But, hey, I described mine only. I don't make plans

> or goals for others, and I do allow everyone their

> own approach to the spiritual life as well as to

> individuation..There is no 'cookie cutter " approach

> to life, and millions who would love psychoanalysis

> cannot afford it. The same with psychotherapy. They

> must instead stick to the collective and its

> participation mystique, or trudge out totally alone.

>

> Again, your word 'redemption' does not convey to me

> what you seem to define it as. I think of it as

> spiritual, and would much prefer 'individuation " as

> the psychological meaning.

>

> How can anyone consider another person's path, like

> Zen, for example torture.? I am not a Buddhist, but

> I too practice meditation in the same very general

> way, and I find the practice complete opposite the

> word " torture " It does take commitment and

> discipline...as do all worthwhile ways.. but it

> works as has been proven through the ages..maybe

> that is what is 'torturous " in your mind,

> commitment , discipline are sometimes very hard for

> a time.. The end of all practices is the same as the

> one you proclaim, I believe you would say????

>

> .... being no one's guru or master, and hardly on

> the way myself, all I say here is my own opinion. I

> am not about to describe how it " should " be done by

> those who start out...but I suggest alternatives.(

> with much thanks to Jung and all his works and an

> active spiritual life of my own)

>

> What is real? Are you proclaiming the absolute

> truth? Jung would disagree with that assertion made

> by any human being. One can only speak from one's

> own personal experience.And that applies only to the

> experiencer.

>

> don't mind how you read, but I think most people

> reading Jung would consider proclaiming absolute

> truth impossible.That is not an argument up for

> discussion...in my world. I mention it only because

> I want you to know I believe it is your

> truth....whether it matters to you or not.( One of

> my overwhelming faults is that I tend to get prickly

> when someone tries to lay down the law, and applies

> his truth to all of us....that is my understanding

> of declarative sentences like " So, redemption is

> real. " I also tend to agree with Jung in most

> things.I take him as an authority on his own work. I

> also love Dante's imagination, and that was exactly

> what it is.

>

> Toni

>

> Original Message -----

> From: Roy Cameron

> To: JUNG-FIRE

> Sent: Tuesday, July 05, 2005 10:07 PM

> Subject: Re: Alice's request

>

>

> Redemption might easily be real. We indulge

> ourselves in the use of our powers. The Circle of

> Hell are real and not just a figment in Dante's

> imagination.

>

> We go to psychotherapy to regain soul, be

> " re-graced " as it were. Dissociation from our

> feelings leads to depression and loss of the sense

> of self.

>

> To regain the sense of self, one looks inward to

> find a new center outside the leaden hues of a

> failed ego-bound consciousness.

>

> This leads to the integration of positive aspects

> of the Shadow, aspects of the Self that have been

> denied or buried.

>

> But all this is not enough. Passing through the

> Shadow we see what it is in us which is anti-Self

> and helped put us there where we began.

>

> Having passed through that veil, and getting why

> we have the wits we do once commented Jung, we can

> experience re-birth, and then go on a couple of

> decades until we have the Second Marriage of

> Alchemy, the First having been that experience that

> led to re-birth.

>

> So, redemption is real.

>

> Roy

>

>

__________________________________________________