Re: A short note about despairing vs. choosing / goals vs. values

May 4, 2011

Hi Randy:I've been one of the starters of threads on this topic, so I'm more than happy to jump in on this.I also find Choice A much more natural. I think a difference with me is that my natural inclination is to withdraw into rumination and try and think my way out of it. I think that distraction, company, or a substance is what I need to feel better. Yet I also fear that they won't work and I'll be basically stuck like I am. I'm not spurred to action by anxiety, I want to close down and escape. Sleep is a constant temptation. I wish anxiety spurred me to action, at least I'd be more productive, although I know it's not pleasant to be wound up.The idea of choosing in real time makes a lot of sense. I struggle a lot with eating healthy, especially breakfast. I have a very difficult time having a healthy breakfast, usually I have very little or nothing at all. When I do eat, it doesn't seem to make any difference in my mood. But I know in the long run, I'd be better off. It's just always my choice to skip breakfast, for reasons I don't really understand.I also struggle a lot with finding other things to do. One of the symptoms I have is a real loss of interest in activities I used to enjoy. So finding a valued thing to do is often tough for me and it's tough for me to stick with it. My mind screams at me to stop and go back to avoidance. I have difficulty getting into the flow.I think there is a lot of value in not judging whether or not our life sucks, at least for me. Part of my issues are that my life doesn't suck, it's actually pretty good. So why am I so miserable and discontent? Why can't I really enjoy anything? Why do I have to live like this? Those are whys that have not produced any answers or improvements. It would be a big step for me to relax and take what comes. I think I saw one definition of acceptance as "taking what is offered by life". But I want something that I can control, even if my conscious mind doesn't quite know what that is but has a vague notion that my reality is not it. That I need more money, more friends, more something.I am very guilty of thinking only about the outcome of my efforts and not the journey. My head screams at me that unless I have a guarantee of great success, the effort isn't worthwhile. I've worked hard at taking baby steps. And the little voice you mention screams that it's not enough, why bother?Thank you very much for your thoughts, Randy. If you are able to write paragraphs on this topic, I'd be very happy to read them. Your words this morning have been an inspiration to me as I start my day. You are talking to me right where I am.Thanks,BruceHi all,There was a thread quite recently in which posts went back & forthabout how it can feel to despair about our current condition - i.e.how it feels to wake up to anxiety day after day, or how it feelsto have this or that life problem weighing heavily on us.I have been doing a little more thinking about this, and it hasclicked with some experimenting I have been doing the past monthwith the idea of "choosing" in real time - that is, in the moment.My experiments with were fairly small choices: choosing not to eatan unhealthy breakfast; choosing not to have anger dictate myresponses in a particular situation.I could go on for many many paragraphs about the results, but Iwill try & keep it brief.As I see it, we have two choices about sucky situations:Choice A: We can spend a lot of time morosely comparing how crappythings are for us versus how we wish they were, i.e. better in thisor that respect. We can really really get into this. And then wecan rouse ourselves and make it our No. 1, super-important missionto achieve goals that will make our life the way we want it, or atleast, better than it is now. I.e. we can vow to "eat morehealthily," "make more money," "make new friends," "do things toreduce anxiety," etc.Choice B: We can have the same thoughts and feelings about howcrappy things are for us versus how great we wish they were.However, rather than really make these comparisons our focus, wecan say "Thanks mind" (or some such) and find other things to do -specifically, choices NOW that are in line with the goals we haveselected that go with our values.Note that with Choice B we still have goals. Yes! But here is theother thing we do differently: We don't judge how "good" or "bad"our life is by whether or not we achieve these goals. In otherwords, whether we are still anxious or not; whether or not wesucceed this week in making a new friend; etc.; whatever happens,we do NOT focus our attention on the outcome as a measure of howour life sucks or doesn't suck. Hopefully we learn from success & failure & enjoy the former - but we are talking "learning" here,not "judging."Choice A, in my experience, has led to a lot of misery andavoidance - even though this is the way society & my mind tells meI should live. So perfect is the illusion that normally I don't seeChoice A as a choice at all, but rather, as "the way things reallyare."Choice B, in my experiment so far, leads to a "happier" life."Happier" is not the right word, though. It leads to a life inwhich I get satisfaction from getting to choose what I do.Naturally, "choosing" is something that requires defusion & otherskills & choices - compassion, commitment, etc. Else we are stuckwith Choice A as "the only choice." Even now a little voice in myhead is saying it's all BS. And sometimes that little voice is ashout.Getting to choose = a kind of freedom. Steve once wrote thatwe can feel whether we are free or not free the way we would feelit if a heavy object (say, a refrigerator) lay on top of us, vs.what it would feel like to have that weight removed.If I am "right" about this process, then every bit of ACT wrapsinto it. Comments & corrections welcome. Or if it seems tootheoretical, please ignore - I hope to write again when I can speakmore concretely. This is a topic (outcome-oriented thinking vs.choosing) that has long eluded me; and I am excited to have even afaint grasp of how to live by a measure other than outcome.- Randy

May 4, 2011

Hi Randy - Great post!

I think your experiments confirm what Polk talks about with his Psychological Flexing (PFing). That has been an excellent tool for me to use and hone my ACT skills in real time. Lately, I feel like my anxiety is at an all-time high. But I'm able to keep my bus on the right path instead of ending up in the ditch. My ACT arms are sore from all of the steering I'm doing. My bus is not on auto pilot right now, at least not on the road I want to go on.

I find that the valuedness of my life is the sum of the choices I make at individual critical moments when life dishes up nice juicy hooks that want to take me away, rather than towards, my values.

And you are right. It's not about how good we feel. It's about how valued our life is despite how we feel.

Good to hear from you as always.

Bill

> To: ACT_for_the_Public > Date: Wed, 4 May 2011 13:47:47 +0000> Subject: A short note about despairing vs. choosing / goals vs. values> > Hi all,> > There was a thread quite recently in which posts went back & forth> about how it can feel to despair about our current condition - i.e.> how it feels to wake up to anxiety day after day, or how it feels> to have this or that life problem weighing heavily on us.> > I have been doing a little more thinking about this, and it has> clicked with some experimenting I have been doing the past month> with the idea of "choosing" in real time - that is, in the moment.> My experiments with were fairly small choices: choosing not to eat> an unhealthy breakfast; choosing not to have anger dictate my> responses in a particular situation.> > I could go on for many many paragraphs about the results, but I> will try & keep it brief.> > As I see it, we have two choices about sucky situations:> > Choice A: We can spend a lot of time morosely comparing how crappy> things are for us versus how we wish they were, i.e. better in this> or that respect. We can really really get into this. And then we> can rouse ourselves and make it our No. 1, super-important mission> to achieve goals that will make our life the way we want it, or at> least, better than it is now. I.e. we can vow to "eat more> healthily," "make more money," "make new friends," "do things to> reduce anxiety," etc.> > Choice B: We can have the same thoughts and feelings about how> crappy things are for us versus how great we wish they were.> However, rather than really make these comparisons our focus, we> can say "Thanks mind" (or some such) and find other things to do -> specifically, choices NOW that are in line with the goals we have> selected that go with our values.> > Note that with Choice B we still have goals. Yes! But here is the> other thing we do differently: We don't judge how "good" or "bad"> our life is by whether or not we achieve these goals. In other> words, whether we are still anxious or not; whether or not we> succeed this week in making a new friend; etc.; whatever happens,> we do NOT focus our attention on the outcome as a measure of how> our life sucks or doesn't suck. Hopefully we learn from success & > failure & enjoy the former - but we are talking "learning" here,> not "judging."> > Choice A, in my experience, has led to a lot of misery and> avoidance - even though this is the way society & my mind tells me> I should live. So perfect is the illusion that normally I don't see> Choice A as a choice at all, but rather, as "the way things really> are."> > Choice B, in my experiment so far, leads to a "happier" life.> "Happier" is not the right word, though. It leads to a life in> which I get satisfaction from getting to choose what I do.> > Naturally, "choosing" is something that requires defusion & other> skills & choices - compassion, commitment, etc. Else we are stuck> with Choice A as "the only choice." Even now a little voice in my> head is saying it's all BS. And sometimes that little voice is a> shout.> > Getting to choose = a kind of freedom. Steve once wrote that> we can feel whether we are free or not free the way we would feel> it if a heavy object (say, a refrigerator) lay on top of us, vs.> what it would feel like to have that weight removed.> > If I am "right" about this process, then every bit of ACT wraps> into it. Comments & corrections welcome. Or if it seems too> theoretical, please ignore - I hope to write again when I can speak> more concretely. This is a topic (outcome-oriented thinking vs.> choosing) that has long eluded me; and I am excited to have even a> faint grasp of how to live by a measure other than outcome.> > - Randy> > > > > ------------------------------------> > For other ACT materials and list serves see www.contextualpsychology.org> > If you do not wish to belong to ACT_for_the_Public, you may > unsubscribe by sending an email to > ACT_for_the_Public-unsubscribe@...! Groups Links> > <*> To visit your group on the web, go to:> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/ACT_for_the_Public/> > <*> Your email settings:> Individual Email | Traditional> > <*> To change settings online go to:> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/ACT_for_the_Public/join> (Yahoo! ID required)> > <*> To change settings via email:> ACT_for_the_Public-digest > ACT_for_the_Public-fullfeatured > > <*>

May 4, 2011

Hi Bruce,

You're talking to me where I am, too. Tendency to ruminate - check.

Distraction - check. Sleep a constant temptation - you bet.

Struggling at times to find valued activities & stick with them -

yup. All of that is familiar.

One thing you said that struck me was this: " It's just always my

choice to skip breakfast, for reasons I don't understand. "

This seems key - not that you choose to skip breakfast, but how you

describe this experience. To me it reads almost like you are

experiencing it not as a choice at all. That is, it seems like

something that happens TO you, or that goes by so quick it's a

blur.

This leads me to some of the " paragraphs and paragraphs " I was

referring to in my original post. It has lately seemed to me that

the notion of " choosing " is key to ACT - it is almost the entire

point - but that it is not always explained as clearly as it might

be. Much of this is because it is a very tricky thing to explain;

and I think some of it is because devising an exercise that

illustrates it is not so easy to do, at least in a form that can be

put into a book.

I don't know if you have a copy of " Get Out of Your Mind and Into

Your Life " ; along with 2 or 3 other ACT books, this has been my ACT

bible since 2005. If you turn to page 155, you'll see a heading

titled " Choice. " The discussion goes from here to p. 158 and tries

to show that there is a difference between choosing between

alternatives based on reasons (verbal evaluations), and choosing

just because we choose what we choose - regardless of any reasons

pro or con. The discussion includes an exercise in choosing either

the letter A or the letter Z. Personally, I never found either the

discussion or the A-Z exercise illuminating, or for that matter

even comprehensible. I just didn't get what the fuss was about. Yet

slowly I have realized that something important is involved.

A passage I find more useful comes from a 1999 book about ACT,

written as a primer for therapists & other professionals. It is a

little bit technical sounding, but here it is:

" For valuing to occur, it is critical that values not be confused

with judgments - values must instead be choices. A choice is a

selection among alternatives that may be made with reasons (if

reasons are there) but not for reasons. Choices are not explained,

justified, linked to, or guided by verbal evaluations and

judgments. To say that choice is not done for reasons does not mean

that there are no historical facts that give rise to a particular

choice. Rather, it means that the verbal formulations a given

person constructs in regard to a choice do not cause the specific

choice to be made.

" Defined this way, animals can choose but they cannot judge. It

seems unlikely that humans, merely because they have added verbal

behavior, cannot do what an animal can do quite naturally. "

The crucial part for me is this sentence - I would put it in all

caps, except then it would be too hard to read: " Choices are not

explained, justified, linked to, or guided by verbal evaluations

and judgments. "

To me, this is describing a behavior one DOES - and NOT a passively

observed difference out there in the world. In other words, it is

describing an action we perform - not something like " the color

red. "

If this is still not making sense, for " the color red, " try

substituting, " the absolutely right thing to do, written down in

some secret book if only we knew. " When we make a choice, we are

MAKING that choice - we are not FINDING it. We cannot point to a

choice the way we point to a reason.

Choosing is an act of creation. We choose one thing over another,

being aware of the reasons for and against, yet not taking these

reasons too seriously. By " not taking these reasons too seriously, "

I mean this: simply that we do not buy into the need to seek out

reasons that justify what we have just chosen.

Which is to say, choosing of this sort is difficult or even

impossible without defusing from our usual perceived desire for

" reasons. " Wanting a reason for a decision works fine for some

things (e.g. buying the lowest-price lawnmower if we are on a

budget) but not others (e.g. whether to go ahead & do a particular

action that might further our values, but the outcome of which is

highly uncertain). In the latter case, wanting & looking for

reasons could end up preventing us from doing anything at all due

to the uncertainty involved. This would be especially true if the

action and the related value involve discomfort that in the short

term it would be easier to avoid.

Also - very important: When I choose in the face of reasons, but

not " for " reasons in the sense of demanding that I have them, I

generally KNOW I have chosen. I can " feel " it. It is very direct.

It's not mysterious. And likewise when I choose while feeling

pressured, coerced, ashamed, fugitive, blank, absent, automatic -

this too is something I can KNOW if I pay attention (though

sometimes I seem to blank it out). It is these latter sorts of

choices that seem like " not choices. "

Choosing is not something I am learning easily or instantly. I

still have plenty of suffering & ruminating going on. Yet even so,

getting to choose on occasion is pretty cool. I'd definitely

recommend it.

I'm working with choices that are slightly difficult - small, kind

of tough & a little painful even, but doable. Like eating a healthy

breakfast rather than a comfy breakfast. Or not hiding out in a

situation. Or letting myself be angry & realizing I don't have to

obey anger. I am also building a list of situations where I tend to

do avoidance moves, so that I can practice choosing differently in

these situations.

Anyway, I'm glad you found the first post interesting, & please let

me know what happens on your end if you try some of this stuff out.

- Randy

P.S. has various exercises in which you set up for a

choice you normally make automatically, but instead slow way down &

hover at the edge of choosing one way or the other & watch your

mind start making demands. Here is a link to one of these on the

ACBS web site - it comes with some poetic talk about Camus, the

French existentialist, and was meant originally for therapists; but

I find it neat for regular folks too:

http://contextualpsychology.org/blog/having_fun_with_your_mind

May 5, 2011

Hi Randy,

I think I would call this the 'reality gap'. I find myself choosing A - a lot. And there are a lot of shoulds, and musts, and hardness around that choice. I find it very hard not to allow choices to be really really important.

One of my top values is 'Having fun with my daughter'. I think of all the ways we have fun and all the things that I avoid that she would find fun and to put it bluntly I crucify myself. But does crucifying myself help have fun with my daughter? No way! I just recently realised this when in a deep dark hole. The point is that I can have fun in many different ways - and I do have fun with her fun. s recent post about 'sparkle time' in London kicked off all of my insecurities around my parenting skills ( sorry nothing personal!) - I would hate London too - she would probably love it - so it is on my to do list. In the meantime whilst I work at 'having fun' in lots of other ways, I have to constantly defuse from the recriminations that I throw at myself. I have to learn to hold myself gently in that 'reality gap' and make a choice NOW that lines up with my value of having fun. It could be as simple as going to the park for an ice

cream - I have to allow my mind to scream that this is not enough and still steer my boat towards the shore. A stressed mum is NOT a fun one!

Simone

Subject: A short note about despairing vs. choosing / goals vs. valuesTo: ACT_for_the_Public Date: Wednesday, 4 May, 2011, 14:47

Hi all,There was a thread quite recently in which posts went back & forthabout how it can feel to despair about our current condition - i.e.how it feels to wake up to anxiety day after day, or how it feelsto have this or that life problem weighing heavily on us.I have been doing a little more thinking about this, and it hasclicked with some experimenting I have been doing the past monthwith the idea of "choosing" in real time - that is, in the moment.My experiments with were fairly small choices: choosing not to eatan unhealthy breakfast; choosing not to have anger dictate myresponses in a particular situation.I could go on for many many paragraphs about the results, but Iwill try & keep it brief.As I see it, we have two choices about sucky situations:Choice A: We can spend a lot of time morosely comparing how crappythings are for us versus how we

wish they were, i.e. better in thisor that respect. We can really really get into this. And then wecan rouse ourselves and make it our No. 1, super-important missionto achieve goals that will make our life the way we want it, or atleast, better than it is now. I.e. we can vow to "eat morehealthily," "make more money," "make new friends," "do things toreduce anxiety," etc.Choice B: We can have the same thoughts and feelings about howcrappy things are for us versus how great we wish they were.However, rather than really make these comparisons our focus, wecan say "Thanks mind" (or some such) and find other things to do -specifically, choices NOW that are in line with the goals we haveselected that go with our values.Note that with Choice B we still have goals. Yes! But here is theother thing we do differently: We don't judge how "good" or "bad"our life is by whether or not we achieve

these goals. In otherwords, whether we are still anxious or not; whether or not wesucceed this week in making a new friend; etc.; whatever happens,we do NOT focus our attention on the outcome as a measure of howour life sucks or doesn't suck. Hopefully we learn from success & failure & enjoy the former - but we are talking "learning" here,not "judging."Choice A, in my experience, has led to a lot of misery andavoidance - even though this is the way society & my mind tells meI should live. So perfect is the illusion that normally I don't seeChoice A as a choice at all, but rather, as "the way things reallyare."Choice B, in my experiment so far, leads to a "happier" life."Happier" is not the right word, though. It leads to a life inwhich I get satisfaction from getting to choose what I do.Naturally, "choosing" is something that requires defusion & otherskills &

choices - compassion, commitment, etc. Else we are stuckwith Choice A as "the only choice." Even now a little voice in myhead is saying it's all BS. And sometimes that little voice is ashout.Getting to choose = a kind of freedom. Steve once wrote thatwe can feel whether we are free or not free the way we would feelit if a heavy object (say, a refrigerator) lay on top of us, vs.what it would feel like to have that weight removed.If I am "right" about this process, then every bit of ACT wrapsinto it. Comments & corrections welcome. Or if it seems tootheoretical, please ignore - I hope to write again when I can speakmore concretely. This is a topic (outcome-oriented thinking vs.choosing) that has long eluded me; and I am excited to have even afaint grasp of how to live by a measure other than outcome.- Randy

May 5, 2011

> I have to learn to hold myself gently in that 'reality gap'

> and make a choice NOW that lines up with my value of having

> fun. It could be as simple as going to the park for an

> ice cream - I have to allow my mind to scream that this

> is not enough and still steer my boat towards the shore.

Hi Simone,

I'm interested in what you say & would like to get a better

sense of your experience. If you slow down or unpack the

different moments involved in making a choice in line

with a value (for example going to the park w/your daughter

for an ice cream), what do these moments look like or feel

like? I.e. if you had to tell them as a story what would the

turns & twists in the story be?

And in some/any/none of these moments does it feel like a

choice you have made or are making freely whether or not

your mind is screaming?

I don't think there is a " right answer " here - I am just

interested in what choosing is like for other folks.

- R.

May 5, 2011

Umm - I don't really know. But it doesn't always feel as if the choice is given freely. As I said before there are a lot of shoulds attached to those choices. And actually - I can't get out of the habit of thinking that I should be the best possible parent - even though as I get older I relish adult time. I do want to have fun and be there for her - she is diabetic and I feel a hyper responsibility for her welfare - so the choice is made but not always willingly. As much as I love her to bits sometimes I would rather be quietly practising my yoga - and that makes me feel guilty and selfish!

I read something today that helps, it's from Mindfulness - Finding Peace in a Frantic World by Mark and Danny Penman, I quote -

...'Many choices are false choices - you simply do not need to make them. They are driven by your thought stream . Nothing more. You don't need to compare yourself endlessly with others. There is no need to compare your life with either a fictitious life in the the future or some rose tinted view of the past......'Choices driven by the thought stream? I wonder what the difference is between a thought stream choice and a ? What other kind of choice is there? - I'm missing something.

Simone

Subject: Re: A short note about despairing vs. choosing / goals vs. valuesTo: ACT_for_the_Public Date: Thursday, 5 May, 2011, 13:57

> I have to learn to hold myself gently in that 'reality gap' > and make a choice NOW that lines up with my value of having > fun. It could be as simple as going to the park for an > ice cream - I have to allow my mind to scream that this > is not enough and still steer my boat towards the shore. Hi Simone, I'm interested in what you say & would like to get a bettersense of your experience. If you slow down or unpack the different moments involved in making a choice in line with a value (for example going to the park w/your daughter for an ice cream), what do these moments look like or feel like? I.e. if you had to tell

them as a story what would the turns & twists in the story be?And in some/any/none of these moments does it feel like a choice you have made or are making freely whether or notyour mind is screaming?I don't think there is a "right answer" here - I am justinterested in what choosing is like for other folks.- R.

May 5, 2011

I can so relate to this. I feel like a stressed dad is not a fun one. And I'm that stressed dad. I feel like I could contribute a lot more to my daughter if I weren't so wound up.On the other hand, I do spend a lot of time with my daughter and we often have fun, or at least she seems to. I don't doubt that I am a better dad than many, just not what I could be. I try every time to make the choice that would benefit her and not give in to the fear and avoid.I choose A though. I feel guilty and angry that it's so hard.I was thinking the other day, who is it I'm trying to impress? I went through a bunch of names, thinking no, not them. But it occurred to me that the one person I really want to impress is my daughter. I want her to be proud of the old man. Of course, I have a very wrong-headed view of what that means. But there it is.BruceHi Randy, I think I would call this the 'reality gap'. I find myself choosing A - a lot. And there are a lot of shoulds, and musts, and hardness around that choice. I find it very hard not to allow choices to be really really important.One of my top values is 'Having fun with my daughter'. I think of all the ways we have fun and all the things that I avoid that she would find fun and to put it bluntly I crucify myself. But does crucifying myself help have fun with my daughter? No way! I just recently realised this when in a deep dark hole. The point is that I can have fun in many different ways - and I do have fun with her fun. s recent post about 'sparkle time' in London kicked off all of my insecurities around my parenting skills ( sorry nothing personal!) - I would hate London too - she would probably love it - so it is on my to do list. In the meantime whilst I work at 'having fun' in lots of other ways, I have to constantly defuse from the recriminations that I throw at myself. I have to learn to hold myself gently in that 'reality gap' and make a choice NOW that lines up with my value of having fun. It could be as simple as going to the park for an ice cream - I have to allow my mind to scream that this is not enough and still steer my boat towards the shore. A stressed mum is NOT a fun one! Simone Subject: A short note about despairing vs. choosing / goals vs. valuesTo: ACT_for_the_Public Date: Wednesday, 4 May, 2011, 14:47 Hi all,There was a thread quite recently in which posts went back & forthabout how it can feel to despair about our current condition - i.e.how it feels to wake up to anxiety day after day, or how it feelsto have this or that life problem weighing heavily on us.I have been doing a little more thinking about this, and it hasclicked with some experimenting I have been doing the past monthwith the idea of "choosing" in real time - that is, in the moment.My experiments with were fairly small choices: choosing not to eatan unhealthy breakfast; choosing not to have anger dictate myresponses in a particular situation.I could go on for many many paragraphs about the results, but Iwill try & keep it brief.As I see it, we have two choices about sucky situations:Choice A: We can spend a lot of time morosely comparing how crappythings are for us versus how we wish they were, i.e. better in thisor that respect. We can really really get into this. And then wecan rouse ourselves and make it our No. 1, super-important missionto achieve goals that will make our life the way we want it, or atleast, better than it is now. I.e. we can vow to "eat morehealthily," "make more money," "make new friends," "do things toreduce anxiety," etc.Choice B: We can have the same thoughts and feelings about howcrappy things are for us versus how great we wish they were.However, rather than really make these comparisons our focus, wecan say "Thanks mind" (or some such) and find other things to do -specifically, choices NOW that are in line with the goals we haveselected that go with our values.Note that with Choice B we still have goals. Yes! But here is theother thing we do differently: We don't judge how "good" or "bad"our life is by whether or not we achieve these goals. In otherwords, whether we are still anxious or not; whether or not wesucceed this week in making a new friend; etc.; whatever happens,we do NOT focus our attention on the outcome as a measure of howour life sucks or doesn't suck. Hopefully we learn from success & failure & enjoy the former - but we are talking "learning" here,not "judging."Choice A, in my experience, has led to a lot of misery andavoidance - even though this is the way society & my mind tells meI should live. So perfect is the illusion that normally I don't seeChoice A as a choice at all, but rather, as "the way things reallyare."Choice B, in my experiment so far, leads to a "happier" life."Happier" is not the right word, though. It leads to a life inwhich I get satisfaction from getting to choose what I do.Naturally, "choosing" is something that requires defusion & otherskills & choices - compassion, commitment, etc. Else we are stuckwith Choice A as "the only choice." Even now a little voice in myhead is saying it's all BS. And sometimes that little voice is ashout.Getting to choose = a kind of freedom. Steve once wrote thatwe can feel whether we are free or not free the way we would feelit if a heavy object (say, a refrigerator) lay on top of us, vs.what it would feel like to have that weight removed.If I am "right" about this process, then every bit of ACT wrapsinto it. Comments & corrections welcome. Or if it seems tootheoretical, please ignore - I hope to write again when I can speakmore concretely. This is a topic (outcome-oriented thinking vs.choosing) that has long eluded me; and I am excited to have even afaint grasp of how to live by a measure other than outcome.- Randy

May 6, 2011

A lot of the time our mind seems to be one big Chinese Finger Puzzle. Those toys

you put your fingers into and spend ages trying to pull them out. The harder you

pull, the tighter they grip.

I'm not a father, and now I'm 63, I know I never will be, but think I understand

something of what you're going through. Like you, I want to be completely in the

present moment and enjoy what's happening, but I can't, because my mind keeps

coming up with thoughts about what I could be doing and feeling if only I were

different than I am, it seems like I'm always getting in my own way.

It's difficult, and I'm still struggling with it, but one answer seems to be to

be to accept what Popeye said about himself: " I am what I am " .

Accepting ourselves as we are right now is crucial. Our genetic inheritance and

life experiences have made us who and what we are and, given that, we do the

best we can. We are not perfect and never will be, but with time and greater

understanding, we can and will make progress.

You love your daughter and she loves you. Hold onto that precious and wonderful

fact and everything should be fine. As she grows up, she will have her own very

natural and human insecurities, and she will and accept yours and love you all

the more.

Cheers,

Stan

> >

> > Subject: A short note about despairing vs.

> > choosing / goals vs. values

> > To: ACT_for_the_Public

> > Date: Wednesday, 4 May, 2011, 14:47

> >

> > Hi all,

> >

> > There was a thread quite recently in which posts went back & forth

> > about how it can feel to despair about our current condition - i.e.

> > how it feels to wake up to anxiety day after day, or how it feels

> > to have this or that life problem weighing heavily on us.

> >

> > I have been doing a little more thinking about this, and it has

> > clicked with some experimenting I have been doing the past month

> > with the idea of " choosing " in real time - that is, in the moment.

> > My experiments with were fairly small choices: choosing not to eat

> > an unhealthy breakfast; choosing not to have anger dictate my

> > responses in a particular situation.

> >

> > I could go on for many many paragraphs about the results, but I

> > will try & keep it brief.

> >

> > As I see it, we have two choices about sucky situations:

> >

> > Choice A: We can spend a lot of time morosely comparing how crappy

> > things are for us versus how we wish they were, i.e. better in this

> > or that respect. We can really really get into this. And then we

> > can rouse ourselves and make it our No. 1, super-important mission

> > to achieve goals that will make our life the way we want it, or at

> > least, better than it is now. I.e. we can vow to " eat more

> > healthily, " " make more money, " " make new friends, " " do things to

> > reduce anxiety, " etc.

> >

> > Choice B: We can have the same thoughts and feelings about how

> > crappy things are for us versus how great we wish they were.

> > However, rather than really make these comparisons our focus, we

> > can say " Thanks mind " (or some such) and find other things to do -

> > specifically, choices NOW that are in line with the goals we have

> > selected that go with our values.

> >

> > Note that with Choice B we still have goals. Yes! But here is the

> > other thing we do differently: We don't judge how " good " or " bad "

> > our life is by whether or not we achieve these goals. In other

> > words, whether we are still anxious or not; whether or not we

> > succeed this week in making a new friend; etc.; whatever happens,

> > we do NOT focus our attention on the outcome as a measure of how

> > our life sucks or doesn't suck. Hopefully we learn from success &

> > failure & enjoy the former - but we are talking " learning " here,

> > not " judging. "

> >

> > Choice A, in my experience, has led to a lot of misery and

> > avoidance - even though this is the way society & my mind tells me

> > I should live. So perfect is the illusion that normally I don't see

> > Choice A as a choice at all, but rather, as " the way things really

> > are. "

> >

> > Choice B, in my experiment so far, leads to a " happier " life.

> > " Happier " is not the right word, though. It leads to a life in

> > which I get satisfaction from getting to choose what I do.

> >

> > Naturally, " choosing " is something that requires defusion & other

> > skills & choices - compassion, commitment, etc. Else we are stuck

> > with Choice A as " the only choice. " Even now a little voice in my

> > head is saying it's all BS. And sometimes that little voice is a

> > shout.

> >

> > Getting to choose = a kind of freedom. Steve once wrote that

> > we can feel whether we are free or not free the way we would feel

> > it if a heavy object (say, a refrigerator) lay on top of us, vs.

> > what it would feel like to have that weight removed.

> >

> > If I am " right " about this process, then every bit of ACT wraps

> > into it. Comments & corrections welcome. Or if it seems too

> > theoretical, please ignore - I hope to write again when I can speak

> > more concretely. This is a topic (outcome-oriented thinking vs.

> > choosing) that has long eluded me; and I am excited to have even a

> > faint grasp of how to live by a measure other than outcome.

> >

> > - Randy

> >

>

May 6, 2011

'We are not perfect and never will be, but with time and greater understanding, we can and will make progress.'

Thank you Stan - I will paste that on my mirror!

Simone

Subject: Re: A short note about despairing vs. choosing / goals vs. valuesTo: ACT_for_the_Public Date: Friday, 6 May, 2011, 8:30

A lot of the time our mind seems to be one big Chinese Finger Puzzle. Those toys you put your fingers into and spend ages trying to pull them out. The harder you pull, the tighter they grip.I'm not a father, and now I'm 63, I know I never will be, but think I understand something of what you're going through. Like you, I want to be completely in the present moment and enjoy what's happening, but I can't, because my mind keeps coming up with thoughts about what I could be doing and feeling if only I were different than I am, it seems like I'm always getting in my own way.It's difficult, and I'm still struggling with it, but one answer seems to be to be to accept what Popeye said about himself: "I am what I am".Accepting ourselves as we are right now is crucial. Our genetic inheritance and life experiences have made us who and what we are and, given that, we do the best we can. You love your daughter and she loves you. Hold

onto that precious and wonderful fact and everything should be fine. As she grows up, she will have her own very natural and human insecurities, and she will and accept yours and love you all the more.Cheers,Stan> >> > > > Subject: A short note about despairing vs. > > choosing / goals vs. values> > To: ACT_for_the_Public >

> Date: Wednesday, 4 May, 2011, 14:47> >> >> > Hi all,> >> > There was a thread quite recently in which posts went back & forth> > about how it can feel to despair about our current condition - i.e.> > how it feels to wake up to anxiety day after day, or how it feels> > to have this or that life problem weighing heavily on us.> >> > I have been doing a little more thinking about this, and it has> > clicked with some experimenting I have been doing the past month> > with the idea of "choosing" in real time - that is, in the moment.> > My experiments with were fairly small choices: choosing not to eat> > an unhealthy breakfast; choosing not to have anger dictate my> > responses in a particular situation.> >> > I could go on for many many paragraphs about the results, but I>

> will try & keep it brief.> >> > As I see it, we have two choices about sucky situations:> >> > Choice A: We can spend a lot of time morosely comparing how crappy> > things are for us versus how we wish they were, i.e. better in this> > or that respect. We can really really get into this. And then we> > can rouse ourselves and make it our No. 1, super-important mission> > to achieve goals that will make our life the way we want it, or at> > least, better than it is now. I.e. we can vow to "eat more> > healthily," "make more money," "make new friends," "do things to> > reduce anxiety," etc.> >> > Choice B: We can have the same thoughts and feelings about how> > crappy things are for us versus how great we wish they were.> > However, rather than really make these comparisons our focus, we>

> can say "Thanks mind" (or some such) and find other things to do -> > specifically, choices NOW that are in line with the goals we have> > selected that go with our values.> >> > Note that with Choice B we still have goals. Yes! But here is the> > other thing we do differently: We don't judge how "good" or "bad"> > our life is by whether or not we achieve these goals. In other> > words, whether we are still anxious or not; whether or not we> > succeed this week in making a new friend; etc.; whatever happens,> > we do NOT focus our attention on the outcome as a measure of how> > our life sucks or doesn't suck. Hopefully we learn from success & > > failure & enjoy the former - but we are talking "learning" here,> > not "judging."> >> > Choice A, in my experience, has led to a lot of misery and> >

avoidance - even though this is the way society & my mind tells me> > I should live. So perfect is the illusion that normally I don't see> > Choice A as a choice at all, but rather, as "the way things really> > are."> >> > Choice B, in my experiment so far, leads to a "happier" life.> > "Happier" is not the right word, though. It leads to a life in> > which I get satisfaction from getting to choose what I do.> >> > Naturally, "choosing" is something that requires defusion & other> > skills & choices - compassion, commitment, etc. Else we are stuck> > with Choice A as "the only choice." Even now a little voice in my> > head is saying it's all BS. And sometimes that little voice is a> > shout.> >> > Getting to choose = a kind of freedom. Steve once wrote that> > we can feel

whether we are free or not free the way we would feel> > it if a heavy object (say, a refrigerator) lay on top of us, vs.> > what it would feel like to have that weight removed.> >> > If I am "right" about this process, then every bit of ACT wraps> > into it. Comments & corrections welcome. Or if it seems too> > theoretical, please ignore - I hope to write again when I can speak> > more concretely. This is a topic (outcome-oriented thinking vs.> > choosing) that has long eluded me; and I am excited to have even a> > faint grasp of how to live by a measure other than outcome.> >> > - Randy> >> >> >>

May 6, 2011

Hi all -

As I read the posts on this thread, I notice we have something in

common. We want to choose wisely, and often we do choose wisely;

and when we do, we sometimes struggle with emotions, urges, etc.

that we interpret as unacceptable for our role - be it mum, dad,

son, whatever.

E.g. " I'm feeling stressed/anxious/resentful " leads to " A person in

my role who is stressed/anxious/resentful is bad to be around "

which leads to " Therefore I am bad. "

Why is it so hard to defuse from these particular sorts of emotions

& thoughts? It is like we have a rule running in our heads that

says, " If a thought about an important thing were false, that would

make the thing not-important. So the thought needs to be true so

the thing can stay important. "

And so we judge ourselves for things like " being in the habit of

thinking about X " - as if thinking is where the problem lies and

somehow we should stop such thoughts. And then we buy into these

supposed " descriptions " of " ourselves, " saying things like, " But

there it is, " meaning, " That's just the way I am. " And then we

apologize & throw another shovelful of dirt on ourselves with the

apology.

This same binary opposition created by language also compels us to

try & cheer each other up by proposing positive thoughts to replace

the negative ones. " Hold onto what is true and everything will be

fine, " we say.

I have many such experiences with anger & anxiety & " important "

thoughts being " true. " And sometimes I snap awake and see what I am

doing. I found out yesterday that someone had stolen the license

plates off my car while it was in winter storage. Naturally I was

upset. As my girlfriend was driving me to the police station to

report the theft, she commented on how nice a day it was. In fact

it WAS a nice day. And I saw that my anger had a little rule

attached: " It is a bad bad bad day. Because you can't be angry AND

notice the sunshine. "

It's not that anger should go away. It's that it's also a nice day.

I can choose, once I have that moment of snapping awake, to see the

sunshine & to see other things around me; to behave kindly to

people; to find the visit to the police station interesting & even

rewarding.

Other moves for us might be to now & then do the thing where for a

half-hour we practice replacing " buts " with " ands, " or include " I'm

having the thought that " in front of whatever we are thinking.

Silly exercises that can wake us up.

Or maybe do the exercise that Steve once suggested on this

list - which I will do in a few days now that I am back at my

summer house with our photo albums - of finding pics of ourselves

as kids & imagining the person in the picture was feeling the shame

we have felt. Some self-compassion practice.

And we can say " I am whole as I am. " Not because it is true but

because we choose this. A strange move to make at first because it

is in violation of nearly everything we have ever been taught. And

because it seems to threaten what is " important. " Try it and see if

it really does.

- Randy

May 9, 2011

Hi Randy,

I love your phrase ' snapping awake'.

Despite my rants on this forum occasionally - usually when I am very stressed about something - my life is opening up in very small incremental ways. I do have fun with my daughter and I do feel anxious. As you so rightly say we can allow the stuff in our head to blot out the sun that is shining, right here, right now.

I am still have a strong tendency to allow the pieces on the chess board to jostle and fight with each other, ping pong around my head - at least now I notice that. The next stage for me is allowing that to happen - taking all my rather intense physical reactions and walking forward. I'm having the thought that I am a coward - thanks mind! And thanks Randy for your thoughtful posts.

Simone

Subject: Re: A short note about despairing vs. choosing / goals vs. valuesTo: ACT_for_the_Public Date: Friday, 6 May, 2011, 16:58

Hi all -As I read the posts on this thread, I notice we have something incommon. We want to choose wisely, and often we do choose wisely;and when we do, we sometimes struggle with emotions, urges, etc.that we interpret as unacceptable for our role - be it mum, dad,son, whatever.E.g. "I'm feeling stressed/anxious/resentful" leads to "A person inmy role who is stressed/anxious/resentful is bad to be around"which leads to "Therefore I am bad."Why is it so hard to defuse from these particular sorts of emotions & thoughts? It is like we have a rule running in our heads thatsays, "If a thought about an important thing were false, that wouldmake the thing not-important. So the thought needs to be true sothe thing can stay important."And so we judge ourselves for things like "being in the habit ofthinking about X" - as if thinking is where the problem lies andsomehow we

should stop such thoughts. And then we buy into thesesupposed "descriptions" of "ourselves," saying things like, "Butthere it is," meaning, "That's just the way I am." And then weapologise & throw another shovelful of dirt on ourselves with theapology.This same binary opposition created by language also compels us totry & cheer each other up by proposing positive thoughts to replacethe negative ones. "Hold onto what is true and everything will befine," we say.I have many such experiences with anger & anxiety & "important"thoughts being "true." And sometimes I snap awake and see what I amdoing. I found out yesterday that someone had stolen the licenseplates off my car while it was in winter storage. Naturally I wasupset. As my girlfriend was driving me to the police station toreport the theft, she commented on how nice a day it was. In factit WAS a nice day. And I

saw that my anger had a little ruleattached: "It is a bad bad bad day. Because you can't be angry ANDnotice the sunshine."It's not that anger should go away. It's that it's also a nice day.I can choose, once I have that moment of snapping awake, to see thesunshine & to see other things around me; to behave kindly topeople; to find the visit to the police station interesting & evenrewarding.Other moves for us might be to now & then do the thing where for ahalf-hour we practise replacing "buts" with "ands," or include "I'mhaving the thought that" in front of whatever we are thinking.Silly exercises that can wake us up.Or maybe do the exercise that Steve once suggested on thislist - which I will do in a few days now that I am back at mysummer house with our photo albums - of finding pics of ourselvesas kids & imagining the person in the picture was feeling the

shamewe have felt. Some self-compassion practise.And we can say "I am whole as I am." Not because it is true butbecause we choose this. A strange move to make at first because itis in violation of nearly everything we have ever been taught. Andbecause it seems to threaten what is "important." Try it and see ifit really does.- Randy

May 9, 2011

>

> I am still have a strong tendency to allow the pieces

> on the chess board to jostle and fight with each other,

> ping pong around my head - at least now I notice that.

> The next stage for me is allowing that to happen - taking

> all my rather intense physical reactions and walking forward.

Yup, that's where I'm at too - my specific issues are

different, as they are for all of us, but the themes

are similar.

Here's to walking forward!

- R.

May 12, 2011

Hi Lou,

I think this is really interesting and I've been thinking a lot about choices. What happens to me is this 1) Activating event. ( Usually around agrophobic feelings) 2. Interpretation. Oh my god I will collapse, I will embarrass my daughter, I will freak out, I will die. 3 Choice. Go forward and expand or retreat. When I go forward I experience this - Electric shock across my chest, heart races and skips wildly, breathing becomes faster, brain freaks out.

This morning on my daily dog walk I walked across a big field. ( People picking aspargus so it felt a bit safer for me) The feelings began to arise - I didn't consciously make a choice I just went straight into ACT - something like this - Ok, now open, open, open, notice five things, e x p a n d. push air out of lungs, breath in, snap into the present...legs a bit wobbly, but I got across the field. I try to push myself a little bit daily - even if its only few steps. The bigger things tend to make me freeze.

Now sometimes this works, sometimes it doesn't and I retreat. Sometimes I retreat before I have even tried! But the thing is I think ,is to get in contact with that choice point - which can be tricky when your brain is freaking out or in a situation that you cannot take a minute in. All I can think of at the moment to help the process is to s l o w r i g h t d o w n ...

What do others think?

Simone

Subject: Re: A short note about despairing vs. choosing / goals vs. valuesTo: ACT_for_the_Public Date: Thursday, 12 May, 2011, 9:28

Hello Group,I went to DBT classes today and they told us about a model for describing emotions. It relates to my earlier `pathway' post when we were talking about choice. Anyway, the model says that there is the `event' (discriminating inside or outside)....then there is the interpretation of that event (the thinking)....then the chemical reaction...and finally the moment of action (choice). I had the chemical reaction as the initial response to the event because it seems to fit better (maybe it's the context, is it worry or is it happening?). An example of when I have experienced sensations first would be when I am practicing caring, compassion and kindness with my daughter in an effort to build connection and she bites and fights me with hurtful comments. The first thing I experience is an acute pain in my core, it makes me bend over (response 1)...that rises in my chest and I begin to experience surges of sadness (the

emotion)...then the thoughts come in about the sadness and feeling of being tense. Then there is the moment of choice...well what am I going to do about it/despite it? Breathe....is my best strategy sometimes...radical acceptance.Any thoughts about this would be very welcome.Lou >> I've been following this thread with great interest. Too many choices causes > confusion I think. We make choices about whether we buy into things, whether we > will work in our relationships, whether we behave in a manner that takes us > forward...the daily choices are endless. (Beyond choice is willingness I think). > I often find myself

confused with so many choices and wanted to find a more > simplistic way of getting to the point of making the choice. Where is that > point? Where one is in the mind to be most effective?> > My mind likes creating 'mind maps' and came up with this pathway for me. (I put > an attachment in, however it is my first so I am hopeful of it working...let me > know). The moment of making a choice comes after you have experienced the > physical sensations, the emotions associated with that chemical reaction then > the thoughts associated to the sensory and emotional experience. (I used fusion > vs defusion as an eg. in the attachment). > > > I like the idea of separating or detaching each experience, the sensory, > emotional and thoughts, to observe each as a separate experience. The more > distance you can put between each of the three experiences, the easier

it is to > notice what comes up and in turn, to make the necessary choices. (Not always > effective, he, he, but we persist right).> > Very interesting thread. Thanks guys.> > Regards,> > Lou>

May 12, 2011

Lou,

I think you're right about the sequence of events when something happens

I haven't read anything about DBT, but if what you say is accurate, then it

needs some adjustment.

In my experience, the sequence you describe seems to be correct. Maybe a more

accurate model is that:

1. Something happens.

2. Our body reacts.

3. There's a reflex action.

4. We assess the situation and think about it.

5. We decide what to do.

6. We act.

Steps 2 thru 6 operate on a timescale from the quickest to the longest. An

example might help.

I'm walking along a street at night when I feel something brush against my leg

(step 1). Adrenaline floods my system and I feel scared (step 2). I spin round

and look down (step 3). I see it's my neighbour's dog, and realise that he must

have escaped (step 4). I decide to pick the dog up and take back to my neighbour

(step 5). I pick the dog up and make my way home, while stroking his fur along

the way.

I hope I this overly analytical analysis helps.

Cheers,

Stan

> >

> > I've been following this thread with great interest. Too many choices causes

> > confusion I think. We make choices about whether we buy into things, whether

we

> > will work in our relationships, whether we behave in a manner that takes us

> > forward...the daily choices are endless. (Beyond choice is willingness I

think).

> > I often find myself confused with so many choices and wanted to find a more

> > simplistic way of getting to the point of making the choice. Where is that

> > point? Where one is in the mind to be most effective?

> >

> > My mind likes creating 'mind maps' and came up with this pathway for me. (I

put

> > an attachment in, however it is my first so I am hopeful of it working...let

me

> > know). The moment of making a choice comes after you have experienced the

> > physical sensations, the emotions associated with that chemical reaction

then

> > the thoughts associated to the sensory and emotional experience. (I used

fusion

> > vs defusion as an eg. in the attachment).

> >

> > I like the idea of separating or detaching each experience, the sensory,

> > emotional and thoughts, to observe each as a separate experience. The more

> > distance you can put between each of the three experiences, the easier it is

to

> > notice what comes up and in turn, to make the necessary choices. (Not always

> > effective, he, he, but we persist right).

> >

> > Very interesting thread. Thanks guys.

> >

> > Regards,

> >

> > Lou

> >

>

May 12, 2011

I would see this differently. The event occurs - your daughter bites you and makes hurtful comments. There has to be a thought element occurring right from the very beginning, that contributes, if not causes, your intense emotional reaction. If a dog bit you you would not react like that, if someone else's child did, ditto. Likewise with the hurtful comments, coming from some other person's child it probably wouldn't affect you much at all or certainly not in the intense way you do when it is your daughter. So there must be thinking and interpretation happening there before you react for you to react so intensely. It's like when a loud noise makes you jump, if you assume it's benign ie a car back firing,etc - might not even register on your radar enough to make you jump - but if you thought it was a gun shot, different story altogether. Same stimulus -loud noise - different emotional reaction depending on your interpretation, which must involve thinking.Kate Hello Group,> > I went to DBT classes today and they told us about a model for describing emotions. It relates to my earlier `pathway' post when we were talking about choice. Anyway, the model says that there is the `event' (discriminating inside or outside)....then there is the interpretation of that event (the thinking)....then the chemical reaction...and finally the moment of action (choice). > > I had the chemical reaction as the initial response to the event because it seems to fit better (maybe it's the context, is it worry or is it happening?). An example of when I have experienced sensations first would be when I am practicing caring, compassion and kindness with my daughter in an effort to build connection and she bites and fights me with hurtful comments. The first thing I experience is an acute pain in my core, it makes me bend over (response 1)...that rises in my chest and I begin to experience surges of sadness (the emotion)...then the thoughts come in about the sadness and feeling of being tense. Then there is the moment of choice...well what am I going to do about it/despite it? Breathe....is my best strategy sometimes...radical acceptance.> > Any thoughts about this would be very welcome.>

May 12, 2011

Hi,

I haven't read the entire thread here so apologies if someone already said this,

but my sense is what does it ultimately matter what comes first? I mean, it's

interesting, but I'd caution not to try to 'figure it out' too much..minds love

to do that!

It's just that thoughts and memories and family/cultural up-bringing, societal

norms, genes and off course habit and so on all come to play such an intricate

part with respect to how and when we respond to any given stimulus.

Breathe I like! Now that is a real tool for suffering! I've found it's a VERY

helpful response for me almost always. It returns me to my SELF, gives me that

defused place where I can hold lightly, with better perspective and clarity and

choices then move forward as much as I'm willing with respect to what my values

in any given context.

Hope that helps a little (?)

treading lightly,

terry

> >

> > I've been following this thread with great interest. Too many choices causes

> > confusion I think. We make choices about whether we buy into things, whether

we

> > will work in our relationships, whether we behave in a manner that takes us

> > forward...the daily choices are endless. (Beyond choice is willingness I

think).

> > I often find myself confused with so many choices and wanted to find a more

> > simplistic way of getting to the point of making the choice. Where is that

> > point? Where one is in the mind to be most effective?

> >

> > My mind likes creating 'mind maps' and came up with this pathway for me. (I

put

> > an attachment in, however it is my first so I am hopeful of it working...let

me

> > know). The moment of making a choice comes after you have experienced the

> > physical sensations, the emotions associated with that chemical reaction

then

> > the thoughts associated to the sensory and emotional experience. (I used

fusion

> > vs defusion as an eg. in the attachment).

> >

> > I like the idea of separating or detaching each experience, the sensory,

> > emotional and thoughts, to observe each as a separate experience. The more

> > distance you can put between each of the three experiences, the easier it is

to

> > notice what comes up and in turn, to make the necessary choices. (Not always

> > effective, he, he, but we persist right).

> >

> > Very interesting thread. Thanks guys.

> >

> > Regards,

> >

> > Lou

> >

>

May 24, 2011

Lou,

Thank you for your feedback. It's good to know that my posts have some value,

however small.

I'm aware that my posts are often intellectual and scientific in nature, but

it's the way I'm wired, the way my genes and life experiences have made me. Like

most things about our personality, it's both a curse and a blessing. A curse

because my thinking gets in the way of feeling, and a blessing because my

understanding of how my brain works leads to greater peace, acceptance and, more

often than before, happiness.

I think you're right when you thought that a chemical reaction comes first. As

you're no doubt aware, there's a part of our brain called the amygdala. whose

job it is to look for anything in our environment that might harm us, and get

our body ready to deal with it. It's kind of like a not-very-very smart guard on

sentry duty. It has vague memories of bad things things that have happened to us

in the past and, when something vaguely similar comes to its attention, it

springs into action. The first thing it does is to get our body ready for fight

or flight by doing things like flooding our body with adrenaline and making us

hyper-vigilant. After it's done that, it sends messages to the thinking part our

brain. It's fast but not accurate, and that's why I said that reaction and

feeling comes before thinking.

On a personal level, I think my amygdala tends to fire more often than it needs

to. Before I retired and before I discovered ACT, I used to dread office

meetings. I'd sit there, surrounded by people and feeling all kinds of bad

things. I'd be full of anxious thoughts and fears that I might blush (it's

called erythrophobia) and people would laugh at me. One thing that helped me

cope was to say to myself " There goes my amygdala, getting it wrong again " .

And it helped. Knowing that it was just a part of my brain trying to help defend

me from what it thought was a threat helped me accept what I felt was a bad

situation. That's why I believe that understanding how the brain works and the

mistakes it makes along the way can help.

It seems to me that ACT works in harmony with the way our brains function, and

that's why I've found it to be such a powerful and effective tool.

Cheers,

Stan

> > >

> > > I've been following this thread with great interest. Too many choices

causes

> > > confusion I think. We make choices about whether we buy into things,

whether we

> > > will work in our relationships, whether we behave in a manner that takes

us

> > > forward...the daily choices are endless. (Beyond choice is willingness I

think).

> > > I often find myself confused with so many choices and wanted to find a

more

> > > simplistic way of getting to the point of making the choice. Where is that

> > > point? Where one is in the mind to be most effective?

> > >

> > > My mind likes creating 'mind maps' and came up with this pathway for me.

(I put

> > > an attachment in, however it is my first so I am hopeful of it

working...let me

> > > know). The moment of making a choice comes after you have experienced the

> > > physical sensations, the emotions associated with that chemical reaction

then

> > > the thoughts associated to the sensory and emotional experience. (I used

fusion

> > > vs defusion as an eg. in the attachment).

> > >

> > > I like the idea of separating or detaching each experience, the sensory,

> > > emotional and thoughts, to observe each as a separate experience. The more

> > > distance you can put between each of the three experiences, the easier it

is to

> > > notice what comes up and in turn, to make the necessary choices. (Not

always

> > > effective, he, he, but we persist right).

> > >

> > > Very interesting thread. Thanks guys.

> > >

> > > Regards,

> > >

> > > Lou

> > >

> >

>

May 24, 2011

-- In ACT_for_the_Public, " Stan " wrote:

>

> I'm aware that my posts are often intellectual and scientific

> in nature, but it's the way I'm wired, the way my genes and

> life experiences have made me.

Hi Stan,

Here are some hopes I have. I hope they don't sound like a lecture.

" It's the way I'm wired " reminds me of the ACT notion of the

" conceptualized self. " I.e., " the stories we tell ourselves about

what we can and can't do here and now, today, as we are. "

Maybe it's true we are wired to behave the way we behave ... but

what if there's a 10 percent or even a 1 percent or a .01 percent

chance it's not true? Or even if we are wired - what if our wiring

isn't what we think it is, but something different?

Speaking for myself, I have decades of personal history I can look

at, and I can predict pretty well that I won't do X or Y tomorrow,

simply because X and Y haven't shown up a lot in my history.

And I'm a big fan of science, too. Well, some science.

Yet how helpful is it to make limiting predictions if they aren't

needed? E.g. if X and Y are " dancing and having a good time, " then

how relevant is my history of not dancing?

Who knows what I might do - what any of us might do - if we pay

less attention to " how we're wired " and more attention to what's

going on?

Maybe dance?

- Randy

May 24, 2011

I think I also have an overactive amygdala. It's funny how the feeling of fear is so strong in the absence of any real threat. And no amount of conscious thought seems to make a difference.I also wonder about the enteric nervous system in the gut. I have such strong sensations of anxiety in my stomach that seem completely independent of what I'm thinking. What is my gut thinking that my mind doesn't know about?BruceLou,Thank you for your feedback. It's good to know that my posts have some value, however small.I'm aware that my posts are often intellectual and scientific in nature, but it's the way I'm wired, the way my genes and life experiences have made me. Like most things about our personality, it's both a curse and a blessing. A curse because my thinking gets in the way of feeling, and a blessing because my understanding of how my brain works leads to greater peace, acceptance and, more often than before, happiness.I think you're right when you thought that a chemical reaction comes first. As you're no doubt aware, there's a part of our brain called the amygdala. whose job it is to look for anything in our environment that might harm us, and get our body ready to deal with it. It's kind of like a not-very-very smart guard on sentry duty. It has vague memories of bad things things that have happened to us in the past and, when something vaguely similar comes to its attention, it springs into action. The first thing it does is to get our body ready for fight or flight by doing things like flooding our body with adrenaline and making us hyper-vigilant. After it's done that, it sends messages to the thinking part our brain. It's fast but not accurate, and that's why I said that reaction and feeling comes before thinking.On a personal level, I think my amygdala tends to fire more often than it needs to. Before I retired and before I discovered ACT, I used to dread office meetings. I'd sit there, surrounded by people and feeling all kinds of bad things. I'd be full of anxious thoughts and fears that I might blush (it's called erythrophobia) and people would laugh at me. One thing that helped me cope was to say to myself "There goes my amygdala, getting it wrong again".And it helped. Knowing that it was just a part of my brain trying to help defend me from what it thought was a threat helped me accept what I felt was a bad situation. That's why I believe that understanding how the brain works and the mistakes it makes along the way can help.It seems to me that ACT works in harmony with the way our brains function, and that's why I've found it to be such a powerful and effective tool.Cheers,Stan> > >> > > I've been following this thread with great interest. Too many choices causes > > > confusion I think. We make choices about whether we buy into things, whether we > > > will work in our relationships, whether we behave in a manner that takes us > > > forward...the daily choices are endless. (Beyond choice is willingness I think). > > > I often find myself confused with so many choices and wanted to find a more > > > simplistic way of getting to the point of making the choice. Where is that > > > point? Where one is in the mind to be most effective?> > > > > > My mind likes creating 'mind maps' and came up with this pathway for me. (I put > > > an attachment in, however it is my first so I am hopeful of it working...let me > > > know). The moment of making a choice comes after you have experienced the > > > physical sensations, the emotions associated with that chemical reaction then > > > the thoughts associated to the sensory and emotional experience. (I used fusion > > > vs defusion as an eg. in the attachment). > > > > > > > > > I like the idea of separating or detaching each experience, the sensory, > > > emotional and thoughts, to observe each as a separate experience. The more > > > distance you can put between each of the three experiences, the easier it is to > > > notice what comes up and in turn, to make the necessary choices. (Not always > > > effective, he, he, but we persist right).> > > > > > Very interesting thread. Thanks guys.> > > > > > Regards,> > > > > > Lou> > >> >>

May 25, 2011

Hi Bruce,

From a yogic perspective fear is carried in the hips, pelvis and stomach. There is a book called The Phoas Book, by Liz Koch that goes into exercises for freeing off the phoas muscle which when tight invokes the fear response - literally a 'tight gut'.

If you think about it we are just like animals that curl into a tight little ball when scared. To protect ourselves - what ACT is asking of us is to uncurl- which is really counter intuitive from everything that ourr mind and body is screaming. I witnessed the whole show the other day. Fear response kicked in - straight to the chest- it spread out and down into my stomach, which I felt contract and tighten- then on down to my legs which turned to jelly. I asked myself - must this feeling be my enemy?' And I managed to stay with it. On plenty of occasions I don't stay with it and run away.

Have you explored the feeling? Leaned into it and breathed through and around it - that is what I try to do. It's quite interesting! Also I thought - now what is my body going to do with all this adrenaline? If I don't allow my legs to run like they want too - what happens to the adrenaline? Anyone know? I thought maybe if I stamped my feet on the spot it might get rid of it.

Bodies. Can't live with them, can't live without em!

Simone

Lou,Thank you for your feedback. It's good to know that my posts have some value, however small.I'm aware that my posts are often intellectual and scientific in nature, but it's the way I'm wired, the way my genes and life experiences have made me. Like most things about our personality, it's both a curse and a blessing. A curse because my thinking gets in the way of feeling, and a blessing because my understanding of how my brain works leads to greater peace, acceptance and, more often than before, happiness.I think you're right when you thought that a chemical reaction comes first. As you're no doubt aware, there's a part of our brain called the amygdala. whose job it is to look for anything in our environment that might harm us, and get our body ready to deal with it. It's kind of like a not-very-very smart guard on sentry duty. It has vague memories of bad things things that have happened to us in the past and, when something

vaguely similar comes to its attention, it springs into action. The first thing it does is to get our body ready for fight or flight by doing things like flooding our body with adrenaline and making us hyper-vigilant. After it's done that, it sends messages to the thinking part our brain. It's fast but not accurate, and that's why I said that reaction and feeling comes before thinking.On a personal level, I think my amygdala tends to fire more often than it needs to. Before I retired and before I discovered ACT, I used to dread office meetings. I'd sit there, surrounded by people and feeling all kinds of bad things. I'd be full of anxious thoughts and fears that I might blush (it's called erythrophobia) and people would laugh at me. One thing that helped me cope was to say to myself "There goes my amygdala, getting it wrong again".And it helped. Knowing that it was just a part of my brain trying to help defend me from what it thought was

a threat helped me accept what I felt was a bad situation. That's why I believe that understanding how the brain works and the mistakes it makes along the way can help.It seems to me that ACT works in harmony with the way our brains function, and that's why I've found it to be such a powerful and effective tool.Cheers,Stan> > >> > > I've been following this thread with great interest. Too many choices causes > > > confusion I think. We make choices about whether we buy into things, whether we > > > will work in our relationships, whether we behave in a manner that takes us > > > forward...the daily choices are endless. (Beyond choice is willingness I think). > > > I often find myself confused with so many choices and wanted to find a more > > > simplistic

way of getting to the point of making the choice. Where is that > > > point? Where one is in the mind to be most effective?> > > > > > My mind likes creating 'mind maps' and came up with this pathway for me. (I put > > > an attachment in, however it is my first so I am hopeful of it working...let me > > > know). The moment of making a choice comes after you have experienced the > > > physical sensations, the emotions associated with that chemical reaction then > > > the thoughts associated to the sensory and

emotional experience. (I used fusion > > > vs defusion as an eg. in the attachment). > > > > > > > > > I like the idea of separating or detaching each experience, the sensory, > > > emotional and thoughts, to observe each as a separate experience. The more > > > distance you can put between each of the three experiences, the easier it is to > > > notice what comes up and in turn, to make the necessary choices. (Not always > > > effective, he, he, but we persist right).> > > > > > Very interesting thread. Thanks guys.> > > > > > Regards,> > > > > > Lou> > >> >>

May 25, 2011

Hi Bruce - Could your gut be responding to "the struggle?" Mine does. Perhaps it's a "struggle" warning light on your dashboard. The instruction manual says to keep moving when this light goes on. BillTo: ACT_for_the_Public From: onebnz@...Date: Tue, 24 May 2011 20:27:44 -0700Subject: Re: Re: A short note about despairing vs. choosing / goals vs. values

I think I also have an overactive amygdala. It's funny how the feeling of fear is so strong in the absence of any real threat. And no amount of conscious thought seems to make a difference.I also wonder about the enteric nervous system in the gut. I have such strong sensations of anxiety in my stomach that seem completely independent of what I'm thinking. What is my gut thinking that my mind doesn't know about?BruceLou,Thank you for your feedback. It's good to know that my posts have some value, however small.I'm aware that my posts are often intellectual and scientific in nature, but it's the way I'm wired, the way my genes and life experiences have made me. Like most things about our personality, it's both a curse and a blessing. A curse because my thinking gets in the way of feeling, and a blessing because my understanding of how my brain works leads to greater peace, acceptance and, more often than before, happiness.I think you're right when you thought that a chemical reaction comes first. As you're no doubt aware, there's a part of our brain called the amygdala. whose job it is to look for anything in our environment that might harm us, and get our body ready to deal with it. It's kind of like a not-very-very smart guard on sentry duty. It has vague memories of bad things things that have happened to us in the past and, when something vaguely similar comes to its attention, it springs into action. The first thing it does is to get our body ready for fight or flight by doing things like flooding our body with adrenaline and making us hyper-vigilant. After it's done that, it sends messages to the thinking part our brain. It's fast but not accurate, and that's why I said that reaction and feeling comes before thinking.On a personal level, I think my amygdala tends to fire more often than it needs to. Before I retired and before I discovered ACT, I used to dread office meetings. I'd sit there, surrounded by people and feeling all kinds of bad things. I'd be full of anxious thoughts and fears that I might blush (it's called erythrophobia) and people would laugh at me. One thing that helped me cope was to say to myself "There goes my amygdala, getting it wrong again".And it helped. Knowing that it was just a part of my brain trying to help defend me from what it thought was a threat helped me accept what I felt was a bad situation. That's why I believe that understanding how the brain works and the mistakes it makes along the way can help.It seems to me that ACT works in harmony with the way our brains function, and that's why I've found it to be such a powerful and effective tool.Cheers,Stan> > >> > > I've been following this thread with great interest. Too many choices causes > > > confusion I think. We make choices about whether we buy into things, whether we > > > will work in our relationships, whether we behave in a manner that takes us > > > forward...the daily choices are endless. (Beyond choice is willingness I think). > > > I often find myself confused with so many choices and wanted to find a more > > > simplistic way of getting to the point of making the choice. Where is that > > > point? Where one is in the mind to be most effective?> > > > > > My mind likes creating 'mind maps' and came up with this pathway for me. (I put > > > an attachment in, however it is my first so I am hopeful of it working...let me > > > know). The moment of making a choice comes after you have experienced the > > > physical sensations, the emotions associated with that chemical reaction then > > > the thoughts associated to the sensory and emotional experience. (I used fusion > > > vs defusion as an eg. in the attachment). > > > > > > > > > I like the idea of separating or detaching each experience, the sensory, > > > emotional and thoughts, to observe each as a separate experience. The more > > > distance you can put between each of the three experiences, the easier it is to > > > notice what comes up and in turn, to make the necessary choices. (Not always > > > effective, he, he, but we persist right).> > > > > > Very interesting thread. Thanks guys.> > > > > > Regards,> > > > > > Lou> > >> >>

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