Guest guest Posted July 26, 2007 Report Share Posted July 26, 2007 Hi Kate, I get mine from www.nutrition-marketplace.co.uk . It is a very good brand (AOR - a Canadian nutriceutical company) and is excellent at regulating oestrogen balance in (hormone sensitive) breast cancer, increasing oestrone levels (but decreasing oestradiol and oestriol) and increasing levels of 2-hydroxy oestrone (which reduces enterohepatic recycling of oestrogen in the body). It has also been shown to be good at increasing gut detoxification. I prefer it and get better results with it than DIM (di-indolylmethane - the main active metabolite of I-3-C) that can also be bought as a supplement. Best wishes, Chris Etheridge PhD MCPP MRSC CChem DoIC ARCS Medical Herbalist 57 Harley Street London W1G 8QS Cheshunt Clinic of Herbal Medicine 62 Roundmoor Drive Cheshunt Hertfordshire EN8 9HQ M: 0 > Message Received: Jul 26 2007, 02:57 PM > From: " stewart selves " > To: ukherbal-list > Cc: > Subject: Indole-3-Carbinol > > > > > > Hi > I wondered if any one knows where I would be able to buy Indole-3-Carbinol supplement in the UK. > I have a Patient recovering from Breast Cancer, and I think this would be a useful supplement. > Thank you > Kate > _________________________________________________________________ > 100Â’s of Music vouchers to be won with MSN Music > https://www.musicmashup.co.uk/index.html > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 26, 2007 Report Share Posted July 26, 2007 Thanks so much chris, And great info too. All the Best Kate To: ukherbal-list@...: chris@...: Thu, 26 Jul 2007 17:36:36 +0200Subject: RE: Indole-3-Carbinol Hi Kate,I get mine from www.nutrition-marketplace.co.uk . It is a very good brand (AOR - a Canadian nutriceutical company) and is excellent at regulating oestrogen balance in (hormone sensitive) breast cancer, increasing oestrone levels (but decreasing oestradiol and oestriol) and increasing levels of 2-hydroxy oestrone (which reduces enterohepatic recycling of oestrogen in the body). It has also been shown to be good at increasing gut detoxification. I prefer it and get better results with it than DIM (di-indolylmethane - the main active metabolite of I-3-C) that can also be bought as a supplement.Best wishes,ChrisEtheridge PhD MCPP MRSC CChem DoIC ARCS Medical Herbalist57 Harley StreetLondonW1G 8QSCheshunt Clinic of Herbal Medicine62 Roundmoor DriveCheshuntHertfordshireEN8 9HQM: 0> Message Received: Jul 26 2007, 02:57 PM> From: " stewart selves " > To: ukherbal-list > Cc: > Subject: Indole-3-Carbinol> > > > > > Hi > I wondered if any one knows where I would be able to buy Indole-3-Carbinol supplement in the UK.> I have a Patient recovering from Breast Cancer, and I think this would be a useful supplement.> Thank you> Kate> __________________________________________________________> 100’s of Music vouchers to be won with MSN Music> https://www.musicmashup.co.uk/index.html> > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 26, 2007 Report Share Posted July 26, 2007 Hi Kate A couple of mouthfulls of steamed organic broccoli would provide plenty cheers Max Indole-3-Carbinol Hi I wondered if any one knows where I would be able to buy Indole-3-Carbinol supplement in the UK. I have a Patient recovering from Breast Cancer, and I think this would be a useful supplement. Thank you Kate _________________________________________________________________ 100¢s of Music vouchers to be won with MSN Music https://www.musicmashup.co.uk/index.html Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 26, 2007 Report Share Posted July 26, 2007 Hi Max Thanks for your reply, is this really true, I was under the impression that one would have to eat bucket loads of Broccoli, to get the same amount of I3C, as you would get in a capsule! Kate http://www.live.com/?mkt=en-gb Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 26, 2007 Report Share Posted July 26, 2007 Chris... What sort of dosage range is optimal? What do the studies say is required to reach therapeutic levels over what we get via food?. Thx... Tami NJ USA Indole-3-Carbinol > > > > > > Hi > I wondered if any one knows where I would be able to buy Indole-3-Carbinol supplement in the UK. > I have a Patient recovering from Breast Cancer, and I think this would be a useful supplement. > Thank you > Kate > __________________________________________________________ > 100Â’s of Music vouchers to be won with MSN Music > https://www.musicmashup.co.uk/index.html > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 26, 2007 Report Share Posted July 26, 2007 Hi Kate hmmm... tricky one. Advocates of supplementation recommend doses of 300 to 400mg per day. However, the mechanisms of action for indole-3-carbinol are still not that well understood, and the higher dosage theory is based on observations that higher doses of isolated I3C given to rats will induce expression of CYP enzymes, particularly CYP1A1 and CYP1A2. At much lower doses several other mechanisms have been observed, in particular IC3 is a negative regulator of estrogen receptor-alpha signaling in human tumor cells - which would be of particular benefit to some people with breast cancer. IC3 arises from indolyl-methyl glucosinolate when broccoli (and other crucifers of course - cabbage, cauliflower, brussels sprouts etc.) is crushed or cooked. With these foods you also get isothiocyanates, and one in particular (sulphorophane) is a pretty potent inducer of the same CYP enzymes. So it seems likely that there is, surprise surprise, an inherent synergy in the natural plant which will both induce the CYP enzymes and affect other relevant molecular targets. Another point about eating the veg to get the alleged magic bullet is that I3C is converted into the biologically activated dimer 3,3-diindolylmethane (DIM) within the digestive tract, helped by digestive enzymes induced through the pleasure of eating. Take it in a little pill or capsule and what happens? Maybe its converted, maybe not, and DIM is the activated form of I3C. That's what I reckon anyway. I don't know of any clinical trials that have been done using the isolated compound in high doses, but then again, I haven't really been looking for them. I wouldn't have thought taking the supplement would do any harm, and might be psychologically the thing to do, as we have all been influenced by magic pill culture. Maybe could recommend your patient to do both, if her budget will stretch to it. best wishes Max RE: Indole-3-Carbinol Hi Max Thanks for your reply, is this really true, I was under the impression that one would have to eat bucket loads of Broccoli, to get the same amount of I3C, as you would get in a capsule! Kate http://www.live.com/?mkt=en-gb Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 26, 2007 Report Share Posted July 26, 2007 Thanks Max A very thoughtful reply, I will suggest my patient eats her greens as well as takes the supplement. Cheers Kate To: ukherbal-list@...: maxdrakey@...: Thu, 26 Jul 2007 12:30:21 -0700Subject: Re: Indole-3-Carbinol Hi Katehmmm... tricky one. Advocates of supplementation recommend doses of 300 to 400mg per day. However, the mechanisms of action for indole-3-carbinol are still not that well understood, and the higher dosage theory is based on observations that higher doses of isolated I3C given to rats will induce expression of CYP enzymes, particularly CYP1A1 and CYP1A2. At much lower doses several other mechanisms have been observed, in particular IC3 is a negative regulator of estrogen receptor-alpha signaling in human tumor cells - which would be of particular benefit to some people with breast cancer.IC3 arises from indolyl-methyl glucosinolate when broccoli (and other crucifers of course - cabbage, cauliflower, brussels sprouts etc.) is crushed or cooked. With these foods you also get isothiocyanates, and one in particular (sulphorophane) is a pretty potent inducer of the same CYP enzymes. So it seems likely that there is, surprise surprise, an inherent synergy in the natural plant which will both induce the CYP enzymes and affect other relevant molecular targets.Another point about eating the veg to get the alleged magic bullet is that I3C is converted into the biologically activated dimer 3,3-diindolylmethane (DIM) within the digestive tract, helped by digestive enzymes induced through the pleasure of eating. Take it in a little pill or capsule and what happens? Maybe its converted, maybe not, and DIM is the activated form of I3C. That's what I reckon anyway. I don't know of any clinical trials that have been done using the isolated compound in high doses, but then again, I haven't really been looking for them. I wouldn't have thought taking the supplement would do any harm, and might be psychologically the thing to do, as we have all been influenced by magic pill culture. Maybe could recommend your patient to do both, if her budget will stretch to it.best wishesMax RE: Indole-3-CarbinolHi MaxThanks for your reply, is this really true, I was under the impression that one would have to eat bucket loads of Broccoli, to get the same amount of I3C, as you would get in a capsule!Katehttp://www.live.com/?mkt=en-gb [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]List Owner: Graham White, MNIMH Yahoo! Groups Links__________________________________________________________Be a better Heartthrob. Get better relationship answers from someone who knows. Yahoo! Answers - Check it out. http://answers.yahoo.com/dir/?link=list & sid=396545433 _________________________________________________________________ The next generation of MSN Hotmail has arrived - Windows Live Hotmail http://www.newhotmail.co.uk Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 28, 2007 Report Share Posted July 28, 2007 In addition, there appear to be more active compounds in the sprouts (like brocolli) than in the plant - this is something most people can manage. They are easy to grow. Fidler --- Max Drake wrote: > Hi Kate > hmmm... tricky one. Advocates of supplementation > recommend doses of 300 to 400mg per day. However, > the mechanisms of action for indole-3-carbinol are > still not that well understood, and the higher > dosage theory is based on observations that higher > doses of isolated I3C given to rats will induce > expression of CYP enzymes, particularly CYP1A1 and > CYP1A2. At much lower doses several other > mechanisms have been observed, in particular IC3 is > a negative regulator of estrogen receptor-alpha > signaling > in human tumor cells - which would be of particular > benefit to some people with breast cancer. > IC3 arises from indolyl-methyl glucosinolate when > broccoli (and other crucifers of course - cabbage, > cauliflower, brussels sprouts etc.) is crushed or > cooked. With these foods you also get > isothiocyanates, and one in particular > (sulphorophane) is a pretty potent inducer of the > same CYP enzymes. So it seems likely that there is, > surprise surprise, an inherent synergy in the > natural plant which will both induce the CYP enzymes > and affect other relevant molecular targets. > Another point about eating the veg to get the > alleged magic bullet is that I3C is converted into > the biologically activated dimer > 3,3-diindolylmethane (DIM) within the digestive > tract, helped by digestive enzymes induced through > the pleasure of eating. Take it in a little pill or > capsule and what happens? Maybe its converted, maybe > not, and DIM is the activated form of I3C. That's > what I reckon anyway. I don't know of any clinical > trials that have been done using the isolated > compound in high doses, but then again, I haven't > really been looking for them. > I wouldn't have thought taking the supplement would > do any harm, and might be psychologically the thing > to do, as we have all been influenced by magic pill > culture. Maybe could recommend your patient to do > both, if her budget will stretch to it. > best wishes > Max > > RE: Indole-3-Carbinol > > Hi Max > Thanks for your reply, is this really true, I was > under the impression that one would have to eat > bucket loads of Broccoli, to get the same amount of > I3C, as you would get in a capsule! > Kate > > > > http://www.live.com/?mkt=en-gb > > [Non-text portions of this message have been > removed] > > > > List Owner: Graham White, MNIMH > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 28, 2007 Report Share Posted July 28, 2007 Hi Sorry I am not sure what you mean by sprouts, do you mean the vegetable or the sprouted seed of broccoli, or the sprouts at the end of the plant, as in purple sprouting broccoli. Sorry for being dim. Thanks Kate To: ukherbal-list@...: riverdellherbs@...: Sat, 28 Jul 2007 02:02:59 -0700Subject: Re: Indole-3-Carbinol In addition, there appear to be more active compoundsin the sprouts (like brocolli) than in the plant -this is something most people can manage. They areeasy to grow. Fidler--- Max Drake wrote:> Hi Kate> hmmm... tricky one. Advocates of supplementation> recommend doses of 300 to 400mg per day. However,> the mechanisms of action for indole-3-carbinol are> still not that well understood, and the higher> dosage theory is based on observations that higher> doses of isolated I3C given to rats will induce> expression of CYP enzymes, particularly CYP1A1 and> CYP1A2. At much lower doses several other> mechanisms have been observed, in particular IC3 is> a negative regulator of estrogen receptor-alpha> signaling > in human tumor cells - which would be of particular> benefit to some people with breast cancer.> IC3 arises from indolyl-methyl glucosinolate when> broccoli (and other crucifers of course - cabbage,> cauliflower, brussels sprouts etc.) is crushed or> cooked. With these foods you also get> isothiocyanates, and one in particular> (sulphorophane) is a pretty potent inducer of the> same CYP enzymes. So it seems likely that there is,> surprise surprise, an inherent synergy in the> natural plant which will both induce the CYP enzymes> and affect other relevant molecular targets.> Another point about eating the veg to get the> alleged magic bullet is that I3C is converted into> the biologically activated dimer> 3,3-diindolylmethane (DIM) within the digestive> tract, helped by digestive enzymes induced through> the pleasure of eating. Take it in a little pill or> capsule and what happens? Maybe its converted, maybe> not, and DIM is the activated form of I3C. That's> what I reckon anyway. I don't know of any clinical> trials that have been done using the isolated> compound in high doses, but then again, I haven't> really been looking for them. > I wouldn't have thought taking the supplement would> do any harm, and might be psychologically the thing> to do, as we have all been influenced by magic pill> culture. Maybe could recommend your patient to do> both, if her budget will stretch to it.> best wishes> Max> > RE: Indole-3-Carbinol> > Hi Max> Thanks for your reply, is this really true, I was> under the impression that one would have to eat> bucket loads of Broccoli, to get the same amount of> I3C, as you would get in a capsule!> Kate> > > > http://www.live.com/?mkt=en-gb > > [Non-text portions of this message have been> removed]> > > > List Owner: Graham White, MNIMH > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 28, 2007 Report Share Posted July 28, 2007 --- stewart selves wrote: Oops - that was silly of me - I meant sprouted seeds. Organic ones obviously - don't want treated seeds! > Hi > Sorry I am not sure what you mean by sprouts, do you > mean the vegetable or the sprouted seed of broccoli, > or the sprouts at the end of the plant, as in purple > sprouting broccoli. Sorry for being dim. > Thanks Kate > > > To: ukherbal-list@...: > riverdellherbs@...: Sat, 28 Jul 2007 > 02:02:59 -0700Subject: Re: > Indole-3-Carbinol > > > > > In addition, there appear to be more active > compoundsin the sprouts (like brocolli) than in the > plant -this is something most people can manage. > They areeasy to grow. Fidler--- Max Drake > wrote:> Hi Kate> hmmm... > tricky one. Advocates of supplementation> recommend > doses of 300 to 400mg per day. However,> the > mechanisms of action for indole-3-carbinol are> > still not that well understood, and the higher> > dosage theory is based on observations that higher> > doses of isolated I3C given to rats will induce> > expression of CYP enzymes, particularly CYP1A1 and> > CYP1A2. At much lower doses several other> > mechanisms have been observed, in particular IC3 is> > a negative regulator of estrogen receptor-alpha> > signaling > in human tumor cells - which would be of > particular> benefit to some people with breast > cancer.> IC3 arises from indolyl-methyl > glucosinolate when> broccoli (and other crucifers of > course - cabbage,> cauliflower, brussels sprouts > etc.) is crushed or> cooked. With these foods you > also get> isothiocyanates, and one in particular> > (sulphorophane) is a pretty potent inducer of the> > same CYP enzymes. So it seems likely that there is,> > surprise surprise, an inherent synergy in the> > natural plant which will both induce the CYP > enzymes> and affect other relevant molecular > targets.> Another point about eating the veg to get > the> alleged magic bullet is that I3C is converted > into> the biologically activated dimer> > 3,3-diindolylmethane (DIM) within the digestive> > tract, helped by digestive enzymes induced through> > the pleasure of eating. Take it in a little pill or> > capsule and what happens? Maybe its converted, > maybe> not, and DIM is the activated form of I3C. > That's> what I reckon anyway. I don't know of any > clinical> trials that have been done using the > isolated> compound in high doses, but then again, I > haven't> really been looking for them. > I wouldn't > have thought taking the supplement would> do any > harm, and might be psychologically the thing> to do, > as we have all been influenced by magic pill> > culture. Maybe could recommend your patient to do> > both, if her budget will stretch to it.> best > wishes> Max> > RE: > Indole-3-Carbinol> > Hi Max> Thanks for your reply, > is this really true, I was> under the impression > that one would have to eat> bucket loads of > Broccoli, to get the same amount of> I3C, as you > would get in a capsule!> Kate> > > > > http://www.live.com/?mkt=en-gb > > [Non-text > portions of this message have been> removed]> > > > > List Owner: Graham White, MNIMH > Yahoo! Groups > Links> > > > > > > > > > >__________________________________________________________> > Be a better Heartthrob. Get better relationship> > answers from someone who knows. Yahoo! Answers -> > Check it out. > >http://answers.yahoo.com/dir/?link=list & sid=396545433> > > > > _________________________________________________________________ > 100’s of Music vouchers to be won with MSN Music > https://www.musicmashup.co.uk/index.html > > [Non-text portions of this message have been > removed] > > > > List Owner: Graham White, MNIMH > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 28, 2007 Report Share Posted July 28, 2007 Hi Tami, Kate and Max, The recommended dosage is 200-400 mg/day, but I agree with Max, if you are going to supplement also advise the patient to have at least one portion per day of one of the Brassicaceae family. Broccoli sprouts (freshly sprouted broccoli seeds) are the highest source of I-3-C, with 1 kg of broccoli sprouts being equivalent to 40 kg of broccoli. Also for interest 400 mg of I-3-C is equivalent to eating 10 green cabbages per day! - so for treating e.g. breast cancer, or prostate cancer, supplementation is really necessary to have any therapeutic effect. As to the processing of I-3-C that Max brought up - we are still not totally sure that DIM is the (only) active anti-cancer component. However, I-3-C is converted to DIM in the acid of the stomach - the reason why you need high doses of I-3-C to make DIM, is that I-3-C has to dimerise e,g, react with a molecule of itself. In order to do this, you need to make sure that the concentration of I-3-C in the stomach is high, so the chance of two I-3-C molecules meeting each other is also high. That also brings an important point, I-3-C is probably best not given to people taking proton-pump inhibitors or H2-receptor blockers, as the pH of their stomachs may not be low enough to metabolise I-3-C (patients also shouldn't take I-3-C at the same time as antacids for similar reasons, and may also change the bioavailability of HIV protease inhibitors, statins, codeine, cyclosporine and methadone). Why not just supplement with DIM then. Well, as I said it is not totally clear that DIM is the anti-cancer metabolite of I-3-C - while DIM is sold as a supplement in its own right, no human studies have been published using DIM - in fact nearly all of the research being cited to support DIM is actually research based on using I-3-C. Also I have found that I-3-C works better than DIM in balancing hormone levels. Finally, patients on DIM have reported more problems with flatulence and bloating than I-3-C. I should finally also mention that the AOR I-3-C does also contain mixed dietary indoles (including DIM, indolocarbazole, and linear and cyclic indole trimers and tetramers) derived from Brassica sources, so gives more of a " synergistic " balance of phytochemicals than most I-3-C (and DIM) supplements. Best wishes, Chris > Message Received: Jul 26 2007, 07:39 PM > From: sundancewellness@... > To: ukherbal-list > Cc: > Subject: RE: Indole-3-Carbinol > > > Chris... What sort of dosage range is optimal? What do the studies say is required to reach therapeutic levels over what we get via food?. Thx... > Tami > NJ USA > > Indole-3-Carbinol > > > > > > > > > > > > Hi > > I wondered if any one knows where I would be able to buy Indole-3-Carbinol supplement in the UK. > > I have a Patient recovering from Breast Cancer, and I think this would be a useful supplement. > > Thank you > > Kate > > __________________________________________________________ > > 100’s of Music vouchers to be won with MSN Music > > https://www.musicmashup.co.uk/index.html > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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