Re: Echinacea and autoimmune disorders?

June 1, 2007

I have a rheumatoid arthritis patient that I thought Echinacea might help

with.

The effect was not what was hoped for, her paining joints appeared to more

uncomfortable which I believe was due to Echinacea.

I'm not convinced that Echinacea should not be used in all auto immune

conditions, I'd certainly consider using it for other patients but probably

would look at alternative strategies first.

>

>Reply-To: ukherbal-list

>To: ukherbalist <ukherbal-list >

>Subject: Echinacea and autoimmune disorders?

>Date: Fri, 1 Jun 2007 09:05:06 +0100 (BST)

>

>Hi,

>

> I have two Pxs with autoimmune disorders. One's been diagnosed with RA

>the other SLE. In the RA Px, only the finger joints are badly inflamed at

>this point. The SLE Px has just been told that she has the markers and

>has a immediate familial history of SLE (sister, maternal grandmother) but

>the condn hasn't physically manifested itself; the hope is that we can

>prevent it from doing so.

>

> I have heard/read many conflicting things regarding the use of Echinacea

>with autoimmune condns. Does anyone have any experience to support or

>refute the arguments regarding the use of Echinacea to help modulate the

>immune response in an autoimmune condn?

>

> I have also read asthma can be exacerbated by Echinacea, any thoughts /

>experience with this?

>

> Thanks so much for your feedback!

> Jeanette

>

>---------------------------------

> Yahoo! Answers - Got a question? Someone out there knows the answer.

>Tryit now.

>

June 2, 2007

Hi Jeanette,

I use Echinacea in autoimmune diseaase, often together with Astragalus and

Uncaria, but not necessarily at the onset of the treatment as I tend to follow

Kerries protocol and address the primary lesion first plus diet plus lots of

inflammatories. I have not seen an aggrevation of the condition, quite the

opposite. Hope it helps

Jeanette Blanks wrote:

Hi,

I have two Pxs with autoimmune disorders. One's been diagnosed with RA the other

SLE. In the RA Px, only the finger joints are badly inflamed at this point. The

SLE Px has just been told that she has the markers and has a immediate familial

history of SLE (sister, maternal grandmother) but the condn hasn't physically

manifested itself; the hope is that we can prevent it from doing so.

I have heard/read many conflicting things regarding the use of Echinacea with

autoimmune condns. Does anyone have any experience to support or refute the

arguments regarding the use of Echinacea to help modulate the immune response in

an autoimmune condn?

I have also read asthma can be exacerbated by Echinacea, any thoughts /

experience with this?

Thanks so much for your feedback!

Jeanette

---------------------------------

Yahoo! Answers - Got a question? Someone out there knows the answer. Tryit now.

June 3, 2007

i know Kerry Bone has always stated that it is fine to use echinacea in auto

immune conditions but there has been documented evidence from the american

herbalist and teacher moore ( or was it bergner ?! " oops I forget

now )of worsening of symtoms in several patients with RA and several with

lupus.

I think caution should always be advised at first and would probably not use it

to start with not least to avoid putting the patient off herbal treatment should

there happen to be an adverse response !

regards , annette

June 3, 2007

Hi Annette

just to confuse matters further(!) I was approached while selling

ointments at Glastonbury (many many years ago) by an elderly fellow

asking if I had any echinacea root as it was what he used to keep his

RA at bay. He looked very spry , anecdotal, I know, but maybe it

would be interesting to collect older herbalists' experience - or

those who have studied with older herbalists - retrospective clinical

audit anyone?

atb

Sally

> i know Kerry Bone has always stated that it is fine to use

> echinacea in auto immune conditions but there has been documented

> evidence from the american herbalist and teacher moore ( or

> was it bergner ?! " oops I forget now )of worsening of symtoms

> in several patients with RA and several with lupus.

> I think caution should always be advised at first and would

> probably not use it to start with not least to avoid putting the

> patient off herbal treatment should there happen to be an adverse

> response !

> regards , annette

>

June 3, 2007

I use the Bone model too and have had a lot of

success. However, in a VERY small subset of pts I

think it is possible that the kind of immune

dysregulation might mean that there is a possiblity

that WBCS are being upregulated but they may not be

fully functional. (There are some blood tests that`can

measure this but you have to get an MDto order them.)

It `is always going to be safe to target the

regulatory cells (i.e. with essential fats) if it

seems that the immune modulators are not suitng the

pt. I've only had this issue with 2, and am awaiting

results of blood tests...

Fidler

--- anna newton wrote:

> Hi Jeanette,

> I use Echinacea in autoimmune diseaase, often

> together with Astragalus and Uncaria, but not

> necessarily at the onset of the treatment as I tend

> to follow Kerries protocol and address the primary

> lesion first plus diet plus lots of inflammatories.

> I have not seen an aggrevation of the condition,

> quite the opposite. Hope it helps

>

> Jeanette Blanks wrote:

> Hi,

>

> I have two Pxs with autoimmune disorders. One's been

> diagnosed with RA the other SLE. In the RA Px, only

> the finger joints are badly inflamed at this point.

> The SLE Px has just been told that she has the

> markers and has a immediate familial history of SLE

> (sister, maternal grandmother) but the condn hasn't

> physically manifested itself; the hope is that we

> can prevent it from doing so.

>

> I have heard/read many conflicting things regarding

> the use of Echinacea with autoimmune condns. Does

> anyone have any experience to support or refute the

> arguments regarding the use of Echinacea to help

> modulate the immune response in an autoimmune condn?

>

> I have also read asthma can be exacerbated by

> Echinacea, any thoughts / experience with this?

>

> Thanks so much for your feedback!

> Jeanette

>

> ---------------------------------

> Yahoo! Answers - Got a question? Someone out there

> knows the answer. Tryit now.

>

> [Non-text portions of this message have been

> removed]

>

> [Non-text portions of this message have been

> removed]

>

June 3, 2007

I use the Bone model too and have had a lot of

success. However, in a VERY small subset of pts I

think it is possible that the kind of immune

dysregulation might mean that there is a possiblity

that WBCS are being upregulated but they may not be

fully functional. (There are some blood tests that`can

measure this but you have to get an MDto order them.)

It `is always going to be safe to target the

regulatory cells (i.e. with essential fats) if it

seems that the immune modulators are not suitng the

pt. I've only had this issue with 2, and am awaiting

results of blood tests...

Fidler

--- anna newton wrote:

> Hi Jeanette,

> I use Echinacea in autoimmune diseaase, often

> together with Astragalus and Uncaria, but not

> necessarily at the onset of the treatment as I tend

> to follow Kerries protocol and address the primary

> lesion first plus diet plus lots of inflammatories.

> I have not seen an aggrevation of the condition,

> quite the opposite. Hope it helps

>

> Jeanette Blanks wrote:

> Hi,

>

> I have two Pxs with autoimmune disorders. One's been

> diagnosed with RA the other SLE. In the RA Px, only

> the finger joints are badly inflamed at this point.

> The SLE Px has just been told that she has the

> markers and has a immediate familial history of SLE

> (sister, maternal grandmother) but the condn hasn't

> physically manifested itself; the hope is that we

> can prevent it from doing so.

>

> I have heard/read many conflicting things regarding

> the use of Echinacea with autoimmune condns. Does

> anyone have any experience to support or refute the

> arguments regarding the use of Echinacea to help

> modulate the immune response in an autoimmune condn?

>

> I have also read asthma can be exacerbated by

> Echinacea, any thoughts / experience with this?

>

> Thanks so much for your feedback!

> Jeanette

>

> ---------------------------------

> Yahoo! Answers - Got a question? Someone out there

> knows the answer. Tryit now.

>

> [Non-text portions of this message have been

> removed]

>

> [Non-text portions of this message have been

> removed]

>

June 5, 2007

This really interesting stuff , could you let us know the

results at some point?

So nice to hear additional clarification on factors producing

individualised reactions.

Sally O

> I use the Bone model too and have had a lot of

> success. However, in a VERY small subset of pts I

> think it is possible that the kind of immune

> dysregulation might mean that there is a possiblity

> that WBCS are being upregulated but they may not be

> fully functional. (There are some blood tests that`can

> measure this but you have to get an MDto order them.)

> It `is always going to be safe to target the

> regulatory cells (i.e. with essential fats) if it

> seems that the immune modulators are not suitng the

> pt. I've only had this issue with 2, and am awaiting

> results of blood tests...

> Fidler

> --- anna newton wrote:

>

> > Hi Jeanette,

> > I use Echinacea in autoimmune diseaase, often

> > together with Astragalus and Uncaria, but not

> > necessarily at the onset of the treatment as I tend

> > to follow Kerries protocol and address the primary

> > lesion first plus diet plus lots of inflammatories.

> > I have not seen an aggrevation of the condition,

> > quite the opposite. Hope it helps

> >

> > Jeanette Blanks wrote:

> > Hi,

> >

> > I have two Pxs with autoimmune disorders. One's been

> > diagnosed with RA the other SLE. In the RA Px, only

> > the finger joints are badly inflamed at this point.

> > The SLE Px has just been told that she has the

> > markers and has a immediate familial history of SLE

> > (sister, maternal grandmother) but the condn hasn't

> > physically manifested itself; the hope is that we

> > can prevent it from doing so.

> >

> > I have heard/read many conflicting things regarding

> > the use of Echinacea with autoimmune condns. Does

> > anyone have any experience to support or refute the

> > arguments regarding the use of Echinacea to help

> > modulate the immune response in an autoimmune condn?

> >

> > I have also read asthma can be exacerbated by

> > Echinacea, any thoughts / experience with this?

> >

> > Thanks so much for your feedback!

> > Jeanette

> >

> > ---------------------------------

> > Yahoo! Answers - Got a question? Someone out there

> > knows the answer. Tryit now.

> >

> > [Non-text portions of this message have been

> > removed]

> >

> > [Non-text portions of this message have been

> > removed]

> >

>

June 6, 2007

I suspect that the gentleman who responded well with

Echinacea for his RA was TH1 dominant i.e. his

disorder was infection/allergy based. If the reverse

occurs then the disorder is more likely to be

TH2/immune dysregulation of TH2 cells. I'm still

waiting on the results - sometimes the post is quicker

across the Atlantic than it is across the country!

--- Sally Owen wrote:

> This really interesting stuff , could you let

> us know the

> results at some point?

> So nice to hear additional clarification on factors

> producing

> individualised reactions.

>

> Sally O

>

> > I use the Bone model too and have had a lot of

> > success. However, in a VERY small subset of pts I

> > think it is possible that the kind of immune

> > dysregulation might mean that there is a

> possiblity

> > that WBCS are being upregulated but they may not

> be

> > fully functional. (There are some blood tests

> that`can

> > measure this but you have to get an MDto order

> them.)

> > It `is always going to be safe to target the

> > regulatory cells (i.e. with essential fats) if it

> > seems that the immune modulators are not suitng

> the

> > pt. I've only had this issue with 2, and am

> awaiting

> > results of blood tests...

> > Fidler

> > --- anna newton

> wrote:

> >

> > > Hi Jeanette,

> > > I use Echinacea in autoimmune diseaase, often

> > > together with Astragalus and Uncaria, but not

> > > necessarily at the onset of the treatment as I

> tend

> > > to follow Kerries protocol and address the

> primary

> > > lesion first plus diet plus lots of

> inflammatories.

> > > I have not seen an aggrevation of the condition,

> > > quite the opposite. Hope it helps

> > >

> > > Jeanette Blanks

> wrote:

> > > Hi,

> > >

> > > I have two Pxs with autoimmune disorders. One's

> been

> > > diagnosed with RA the other SLE. In the RA Px,

> only

> > > the finger joints are badly inflamed at this

> point.

> > > The SLE Px has just been told that she has the

> > > markers and has a immediate familial history of

> SLE

> > > (sister, maternal grandmother) but the condn

> hasn't

> > > physically manifested itself; the hope is that

> we

> > > can prevent it from doing so.

> > >

> > > I have heard/read many conflicting things

> regarding

> > > the use of Echinacea with autoimmune condns.

> Does

> > > anyone have any experience to support or refute

> the

> > > arguments regarding the use of Echinacea to help

> > > modulate the immune response in an autoimmune

> condn?

> > >

> > > I have also read asthma can be exacerbated by

> > > Echinacea, any thoughts / experience with this?

> > >

> > > Thanks so much for your feedback!

> > > Jeanette

> > >

> > > ---------------------------------

> > > Yahoo! Answers - Got a question? Someone out

> there

> > > knows the answer. Tryit now.

> > >

> > > [Non-text portions of this message have been

> > > removed]

> > >

> > > [Non-text portions of this message have been

> > > removed]

> > >

> >

>

> [Non-text portions of this message have been

> removed]

>

June 6, 2007

,

Thanks for your response. This is very interesting! Do you only

send for the test when you have an negative response to the

Echinacea to confirm your suspicion of TH2 cell disregulation? You

said that you had a -ve rxn with two Pxs. I know you are awaiting

the recent bloods but did the bloods from the first Px also point to

TH2 disregulation?

Jeanette

> > > > Hi,

> > > >

> > > > I have two Pxs with autoimmune disorders. One's

> > been

> > > > diagnosed with RA the other SLE. In the RA Px,

> > only

> > > > the finger joints are badly inflamed at this

> > point.

> > > > The SLE Px has just been told that she has the

> > > > markers and has a immediate familial history of

> > SLE

> > > > (sister, maternal grandmother) but the condn

> > hasn't

> > > > physically manifested itself; the hope is that

> > we

> > > > can prevent it from doing so.

> > > >

> > > > I have heard/read many conflicting things

> > regarding

> > > > the use of Echinacea with autoimmune condns.

> > Does

> > > > anyone have any experience to support or refute

> > the

> > > > arguments regarding the use of Echinacea to help

> > > > modulate the immune response in an autoimmune

> > condn?

> > > >

> > > > I have also read asthma can be exacerbated by

> > > > Echinacea, any thoughts / experience with this?

> > > >

> > > > Thanks so much for your feedback!

> > > > Jeanette

> > > >

> > > > ---------------------------------

> > > > Yahoo! Answers - Got a question? Someone out

> > there

> > > > knows the answer. Tryit now.

> > > >

> > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been

> > > > removed]

> > > >

> > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been

> > > > removed]

> > > >

> > >

> >

> > [Non-text portions of this message have been

> > removed]

> >

>

June 6, 2007

,

Thanks for your response. This is very interesting! Do you only

send for the test when you have an negative response to the

Echinacea to confirm your suspicion of TH2 cell disregulation? You

said that you had a -ve rxn with two Pxs. I know you are awaiting

the recent bloods but did the bloods from the first Px also point to

TH2 disregulation?

Jeanette

> > > > Hi,

> > > >

> > > > I have two Pxs with autoimmune disorders. One's

> > been

> > > > diagnosed with RA the other SLE. In the RA Px,

> > only

> > > > the finger joints are badly inflamed at this

> > point.

> > > > The SLE Px has just been told that she has the

> > > > markers and has a immediate familial history of

> > SLE

> > > > (sister, maternal grandmother) but the condn

> > hasn't

> > > > physically manifested itself; the hope is that

> > we

> > > > can prevent it from doing so.

> > > >

> > > > I have heard/read many conflicting things

> > regarding

> > > > the use of Echinacea with autoimmune condns.

> > Does

> > > > anyone have any experience to support or refute

> > the

> > > > arguments regarding the use of Echinacea to help

> > > > modulate the immune response in an autoimmune

> > condn?

> > > >

> > > > I have also read asthma can be exacerbated by

> > > > Echinacea, any thoughts / experience with this?

> > > >

> > > > Thanks so much for your feedback!

> > > > Jeanette

> > > >

> > > > ---------------------------------

> > > > Yahoo! Answers - Got a question? Someone out

> > there

> > > > knows the answer. Tryit now.

> > > >

> > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been

> > > > removed]

> > > >

> > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been

> > > > removed]

> > > >

> > >

> >

> > [Non-text portions of this message have been

> > removed]

> >

>

June 6, 2007

Hi Sally,

I would love to hear what experience 'seasoned' herbalists have had

with Echinacea. I know personally that most of my treatment

protocols are based on the information I gleaned from herbalists

that have been practicing for eons. Much of what was imparted by

them is based on their experience in practice and confirmation of

the traditional uses of the herbs.

A friend of mine from college did her dissertation on this very

topic: Does herbalists experience using Echinacea support or refute

the claims that its use with autoimmune condns is contra-indicated.

I haven't read it though. Perhaps she'd be willing to share it with

those interested in reading it?

Jeanette

>

> > i know Kerry Bone has always stated that it is fine to use

> > echinacea in auto immune conditions but there has been

documented

> > evidence from the american herbalist and teacher moore (

or

> > was it bergner ?! " oops I forget now )of worsening of

symtoms

> > in several patients with RA and several with lupus.

> > I think caution should always be advised at first and would

> > probably not use it to start with not least to avoid putting

the

> > patient off herbal treatment should there happen to be an

adverse

> > response !

> > regards , annette

> >

June 7, 2007

I didn't know I could test for these then! So no.

--- jeanetteblanks wrote:

> ,

>

> Thanks for your response. This is very interesting!

> Do you only

> send for the test when you have an negative response

> to the

> Echinacea to confirm your suspicion of TH2 cell

> disregulation? You

> said that you had a -ve rxn with two Pxs. I know

> you are awaiting

> the recent bloods but did the bloods from the first

> Px also point to

> TH2 disregulation?

>

> Jeanette

>

> > > > > Hi,

> > > > >

> > > > > I have two Pxs with autoimmune disorders.

> One's

> > > been

> > > > > diagnosed with RA the other SLE. In the RA

> Px,

> > > only

> > > > > the finger joints are badly inflamed at this

> > > point.

> > > > > The SLE Px has just been told that she has

> the

> > > > > markers and has a immediate familial history

> of

> > > SLE

> > > > > (sister, maternal grandmother) but the condn

> > > hasn't

> > > > > physically manifested itself; the hope is

> that

> > > we

> > > > > can prevent it from doing so.

> > > > >

> > > > > I have heard/read many conflicting things

> > > regarding

> > > > > the use of Echinacea with autoimmune condns.

> > > Does

> > > > > anyone have any experience to support or

> refute

> > > the

> > > > > arguments regarding the use of Echinacea to

> help

> > > > > modulate the immune response in an

> autoimmune

> > > condn?

> > > > >

> > > > > I have also read asthma can be exacerbated

> by

> > > > > Echinacea, any thoughts / experience with

> this?

> > > > >

> > > > > Thanks so much for your feedback!

> > > > > Jeanette

> > > > >

> > > > > ---------------------------------

> > > > > Yahoo! Answers - Got a question? Someone out

> > > there

> > > > > knows the answer. Tryit now.

> > > > >

> > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been

> > > > > removed]

> > > > >

> > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been

> > > > > removed]

> > > > >

> > > >

> > >

> > > [Non-text portions of this message have been

> > > removed]

> > >

> >

>

June 7, 2007

Hi Jeanette

referring to Bartram's yesterday, I noticed he recommends it for RA,

so would guess that his overall experience was positive.

When I tidy my office and sort my papers I will look for my notes

from when I studied with Fred Fletcher Hyde and see if he mentioned

it - or if you have back issues of Herbal Thymes, published

some fascinating material of his

all the best

Sally

> Hi Sally,

>

> I would love to hear what experience 'seasoned' herbalists have had

> with Echinacea. I know personally that most of my treatment

> protocols are based on the information I gleaned from herbalists

> that have been practicing for eons. Much of what was imparted by

> them is based on their experience in practice and confirmation of

> the traditional uses of the herbs.

>

> A friend of mine from college did her dissertation on this very

> topic: Does herbalists experience using Echinacea support or refute

> the claims that its use with autoimmune condns is contra-indicated.

> I haven't read it though. Perhaps she'd be willing to share it with

> those interested in reading it?

>

> Jeanette

>

> >

> > > i know Kerry Bone has always stated that it is fine to use

> > > echinacea in auto immune conditions but there has been

> documented

> > > evidence from the american herbalist and teacher moore (

> or

> > > was it bergner ?! " oops I forget now )of worsening of

> symtoms

> > > in several patients with RA and several with lupus.

> > > I think caution should always be advised at first and would

> > > probably not use it to start with not least to avoid putting

> the

> > > patient off herbal treatment should there happen to be an

> adverse

> > > response !

> > > regards , annette

> > >

June 7, 2007

Oh and it goes without saying, it would be wonderful if your friend

would share her dissertation

(just read right to the end of your email!...........:-) )

Sally

> Hi Jeanette

>

> referring to Bartram's yesterday, I noticed he recommends it for RA,

> so would guess that his overall experience was positive.

> When I tidy my office and sort my papers I will look for my notes

> from when I studied with Fred Fletcher Hyde and see if he mentioned

> it - or if you have back issues of Herbal Thymes, published

> some fascinating material of his

>

> all the best

>

> Sally

>

> > Hi Sally,

> >

> > I would love to hear what experience 'seasoned' herbalists have had

> > with Echinacea. I know personally that most of my treatment

> > protocols are based on the information I gleaned from herbalists

> > that have been practicing for eons. Much of what was imparted by

> > them is based on their experience in practice and confirmation of

> > the traditional uses of the herbs.

> >

> > A friend of mine from college did her dissertation on this very

> > topic: Does herbalists experience using Echinacea support or refute

> > the claims that its use with autoimmune condns is contra-indicated.

> > I haven't read it though. Perhaps she'd be willing to share it with

> > those interested in reading it?

> >

> > Jeanette

> >

> > >

> > > > i know Kerry Bone has always stated that it is fine to use

> > > > echinacea in auto immune conditions but there has been

> > documented

> > > > evidence from the american herbalist and teacher moore (

> > or

> > > > was it bergner ?! " oops I forget now )of worsening of

> > symtoms

> > > > in several patients with RA and several with lupus.

> > > > I think caution should always be advised at first and would

> > > > probably not use it to start with not least to avoid putting

> > the

> > > > patient off herbal treatment should there happen to be an

> > adverse

> > > > response !

> > > > regards , annette

> > > >

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