Re: sleep

[Guest guest]

In a message dated 10/25/2000 3:21:33 PM Eastern Daylight Time,

ottercritter@... writes:

> two reasons you can have trouble falling asleep are

or like me, I worked nights since the 70's!!! LOL :-)

I find now I have to take melatonin at least 3x a wekk if I want to sleep at

night.

carol

[Guest guest]

This may cause strife and I don't mean it to, so let me say that this is just my

opinion based on my experience. AFter a hellish two years, I " ferberized " my

kid. I didn't agree with his principles, I thought they sounded inhumane,

cruel, and even abusive. But you know what? They worked. Quickly.

[Guest guest]

AFter a hellish two years, I " ferberized " my kid. I didn't agree with his

principles, I thought they sounded inhumane, cruel, and even abusive. But

you know what? They worked. Quickly.

>

I do not agree with Ferber and I have never used the method. BUT they do

work and usually pretty quickly and I would never criticize any parent who

used this method especially not if the sleepless nights are affecting your

parenting ability. Sometimes we have to do less than optimal things in

order to cope. I have known some very fine parents who used the Ferber

method because they were at their wits' end.

Salli

[Guest guest]

I am not sure what the Ferber method is.... I am guessing that it's the " let

them cry themselves to sleep " method?

Where sleep is concerned, I am blessed beyond belief. I daresay y'all would

be impressed, LOL, even if you do not agree. At 6 months of age, I gave up

on carrying them and walking around, singing, to have them sleep. My back

was simply giving out.

So I finally took my mom's advice, which I'd been shunning for months. Put

the child in crib, do whatever bedtime ritual you please, and leave. There

is no further negotiation.

Oh no, not my kid, I thought. Surely not both my children....

Well, once they got to the point where I really could no longer carry them

for 20-30 minutes each to put them to sleep (not to mention it was getting

longer and longer because their sizes were getting to big to be comfortable

carried around for any length of time)- - - I just gave up. " Night night "

said many times over, and lots of smiles and kisses - - waving, and then

darkness as I closed the door behind me, with a will of steel, and knew I

was either going to give in within 10 minutes, or never look back again.

The first day <naptime>, they cried for 1.5 hours, on and off. That was

hell on earth. But I never went in, not once. I do believe that they

really kept on waking each other up with the others' cries.

That night, for bedtime, they cried 45 minutes. Oh geez, we're never going

to make it, I thought.

The next day's naptime, 10 minutes, and then they played for 10 minutes - -

then silence....

And the next bedtime - - about 30 seconds of crying, and then silence. Just

went straight to bed.

Now - - to this day, I have never seen children who LOVE " night night " time

as much as my girls do. Aside from that, another reason I am so glad I did

this is because just like other autistic kids, Madison has a tendency to

wake up at ungodly hours. During these times, she will wake up, play like

any other time, and go back to sleep in an hour or two, on her own. Thanks

to the night night stuff, they really learned how to play well in their

room, all by themselves. Bedtime, to them, I think, is considered " peaceful

time " .... no interruptions from mommy, no sounds to overstimulate them, and

comfy bed with nice covers.... and darkness.

These days, we get all the bedtime stuff done in the living areas of the

house, like toothbrushing, hairbrushing, changing into pj's, booktime,

etc - - - - and then I announce, " NIGHT NIGGGGHHHHTT!!! " and each grabs a

toy, or book, or whatever their " item or items of the week " are, and comes

to hold my hand and be led to bed. It is quite a wonderful time of evening

LOL!! Once in awhile, if really tired, Syd will say " nye nye' and I

understand that she wants to be put to bed now.

My aunt made the best observation. " You are such a pushover during the

day, " she observes, " but bedtime in this house is like a prison ward's

LIGHTS OFF announcement! " LOLOL.... it really is - but they honestly do

like the schedule. I didn't realize how much I was actually playing into

their autistic desire for schedule until years later, but it worked.

Grace

Re: Sleep

> AFter a hellish two years, I " ferberized " my kid. I didn't agree with his

> principles, I thought they sounded inhumane, cruel, and even abusive. But

> you know what? They worked. Quickly.

> >

>

>

> I do not agree with Ferber and I have never used the method. BUT they do

> work and usually pretty quickly and I would never criticize any parent who

> used this method especially not if the sleepless nights are affecting your

> parenting ability. Sometimes we have to do less than optimal things in

> order to cope. I have known some very fine parents who used the Ferber

> method because they were at their wits' end.

>

> Salli

>

>

>

[Guest guest]

> P.S. do you think it works on obnoxious fourteen year olds?

>

>

>

Salli, it might, but I would not want to be the one to try it, if you know

what I mean.

Especially if said 14 year old is big enough to break down a door.

In fact, I don't think I'd want to try it on my girls at the size they are

at NOW. I did it at 6 months - - - - call me unfair and a cheat - - but it

had to happen when they could not walk, could not jump out of their cribs,

and could not, for the life of them, kick the door off the hinges.

Cause I am quite sure that if they could, they would have done just that.

So no, I don't think an obnoxious yet charming 14 year old could benefit

from this method LOL!!

Grace

[Guest guest]

> My kid or not, if anyone leaves their children in my posession, " NIGHT

> NIGHT " being hollered will definitely make them run to their beds LOLOL!!!

I can't decide if I think it would be a really bad idea to send Robbie and

Putter to you or a really good idea.

Hmm.

Salli

[Guest guest]

I have heard of that. Is that where you let them cry for however long? I

tried doing this with Ebony, but she just played in her room till like 3

o'clock am. By that time, she was naked and her room was literally

destroyed...everything out of the dresser, sheets off, curtains down, toys

everywhere!!! Yikes

Tamara, mom to Ebony-4 yrs, ASD & -7 months

>

>Reply-To: parenting_autism

>To: <parenting_autism >

>Subject: Re: Sleep

>Date: Thu, 22 Nov 2001 14:09:07 -0500

>

>

>This may cause strife and I don't mean it to, so let me say that this is

>just my opinion based on my experience. AFter a hellish two years, I

> " ferberized " my kid. I didn't agree with his principles, I thought they

>sounded inhumane, cruel, and even abusive. But you know what? They

>worked. Quickly.

>

>

>

>

>

_________________________________________________________________

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[Guest guest]

I

> tried doing this with Ebony, but she just played in her room till like 3

> o'clock am. By that time, she was naked and her room was literally

> destroyed...everything out of the dresser, sheets off, curtains down, toys

> everywhere!!! Yikes

Oh, yes.... well, did I forget to mention that this is the price to pay for

" independent sleeping " ?

LOL... we have that here too, and even so, I do not go into their rooms.

You know how moms can distinguish between the " I'm so tired but can't sleep "

cry and the " my head just busted open, call 911 " cry? Well, until I hear

the latter, I do not go in.

Alas, this means that quite often... I enter a room that is completely

demolished, at 3 AM.... but they ARE sleeping, LOL.

I take what I can get. ;o)

Grace

[Guest guest]

I

> tried doing this with Ebony, but she just played in her room till like 3

> o'clock am. By that time, she was naked and her room was literally

> destroyed...everything out of the dresser, sheets off, curtains down, toys

> everywhere!!! Yikes

Oh, yes.... well, did I forget to mention that this is the price to pay for

" independent sleeping " ?

LOL... we have that here too, and even so, I do not go into their rooms.

You know how moms can distinguish between the " I'm so tired but can't sleep "

cry and the " my head just busted open, call 911 " cry? Well, until I hear

the latter, I do not go in.

Alas, this means that quite often... I enter a room that is completely

demolished, at 3 AM.... but they ARE sleeping, LOL.

I take what I can get. ;o)

Grace

[Guest guest]

> I can't decide if I think it would be a really bad idea to send Robbie and

> Putter to you or a really good idea.

>

> Hmm.

And I don't know whether to be scared you might, or that you might just send

one.. and it won't be Robbie. Putter is awfully cute, I admit... but

seriously now, Salli.... isn't two autie kids enough for me?

I needn't remind you again that I am simply not cut out for motherhood, do

I?

But for Robbie - - I will forego the bedtime Hitler act. Heck, I'll play

with him all night long, even with trains.... which I really do not enjoy at

all.

Grace

[Guest guest]

>

> This may cause strife and I don't mean it to, so let me say that

this is just my opinion based on my experience. AFter a hellish two

years, I " ferberized " my kid. I didn't agree with his principles, I

thought they sounded inhumane, cruel, and even abusive. But you know

what? They worked. Quickly.

Please keep in mind this is a child who can, and has, cried for 6

hours straight. On one memorable occasion he cried for 9 hours

straight. For a year trips to visit relatives were hell because he

cried from the time we got in the car until we arrived; 4 1/2-5

hours. Every month. For a year. I still dread the visits although

turning his car seat to face forward solved the problem, which was

probably sensory in nature. I have little doubt that he would simply

cry all night.

When he was 10 months old he would not nap unless he was held. I

finally had enough and would get him almost asleep, then put him in

his crib and leave. EVERY afternoon he cried for an hour before

finally sleeping. This went on for a month. The crying never

lessened. After a full month I gave up and napped with him. We gave

the crib away.

I am not ruling Ferber out but I would prefer to address the cause of

his difficulty, which I relly think is anxiety caused by his sensory

issues.

What do you think? I ask honestly. I really don't know what to do.

How long did cry? Thanks,

-Sara.

[Guest guest]

>

> This may cause strife and I don't mean it to, so let me say that

this is just my opinion based on my experience. AFter a hellish two

years, I " ferberized " my kid. I didn't agree with his principles, I

thought they sounded inhumane, cruel, and even abusive. But you know

what? They worked. Quickly.

Please keep in mind this is a child who can, and has, cried for 6

hours straight. On one memorable occasion he cried for 9 hours

straight. For a year trips to visit relatives were hell because he

cried from the time we got in the car until we arrived; 4 1/2-5

hours. Every month. For a year. I still dread the visits although

turning his car seat to face forward solved the problem, which was

probably sensory in nature. I have little doubt that he would simply

cry all night.

When he was 10 months old he would not nap unless he was held. I

finally had enough and would get him almost asleep, then put him in

his crib and leave. EVERY afternoon he cried for an hour before

finally sleeping. This went on for a month. The crying never

lessened. After a full month I gave up and napped with him. We gave

the crib away.

I am not ruling Ferber out but I would prefer to address the cause of

his difficulty, which I relly think is anxiety caused by his sensory

issues.

What do you think? I ask honestly. I really don't know what to do.

How long did cry? Thanks,

-Sara.

[Guest guest]

>

> I am not ruling Ferber out but I would prefer to address the cause of

> his difficulty, which I relly think is anxiety caused by his sensory

> issues.

>

Sara:

I place a great deal of faith in your feelings in this matter. I don't

really know of any natural remedies besides melatonin; there must be some

though. However, things like melatonin also don't really address the

problem -- which is exactly why you are asking about it. I am sure you have

talked to your OT about it? Weighted blankets perhaps? Might they help?

I'll ask Putter's OT today when I see her; maybe she will have some

different ideas.

Salli

[Guest guest]

>

> I am not ruling Ferber out but I would prefer to address the cause of

> his difficulty, which I relly think is anxiety caused by his sensory

> issues.

>

Sara:

I place a great deal of faith in your feelings in this matter. I don't

really know of any natural remedies besides melatonin; there must be some

though. However, things like melatonin also don't really address the

problem -- which is exactly why you are asking about it. I am sure you have

talked to your OT about it? Weighted blankets perhaps? Might they help?

I'll ask Putter's OT today when I see her; maybe she will have some

different ideas.

Salli

[Guest guest]

> I place a great deal of faith in your feelings in this matter. I

Thank you!

> talked to your OT about it? Weighted blankets perhaps? Might they

help?

> I'll ask Putter's OT today when I see her; maybe she will have some

> different ideas.

Our OT says to do OT with him every 2 hours, which I have really been

doing over the last week. We are jumping on the couch, throwing him,

bouncing him, swinging him, squeezing him. It seems like I do

nothing but OT all day. Gabe thinks it's hilarious.

He doesn't like blankets. We have a very heavy blanket I folded into

1/4s. Nope. I have been meaning to make him a weighted vest & we'll

try sleeping him in that. But after 6 hours of sleep, will he be

habituated to it when he wakes up? (I don't know.) Maybe I'll get

that made today...

We also tried a large fluffy pillow (read: dog bed) which he wanted

nothing to do with. I thought the sensation of being surrounded

might help him.

We've thought about getting a hammock...I think he would wake up and

feel trapped and freak out but I could be wrong. I wish there was a

way to try it without having to buy & install one only to find he

hates it...

Hmm...maybe if I wrapped the blanket around him so he couldn't kick

it off? Same problem as above - wake and freak - but perhaps...? He

loves to have that heavy blanket thrown over him and fight his way

out of it. Thinks that's a blast.

I meant to ask our OT about it again this week but she had to cut our

session short & I didn't get a chance. And we won't see her next

week. Maybe I'll email her...

Thanks!!

-Sara.

[Guest guest]

> I place a great deal of faith in your feelings in this matter. I

Thank you!

> talked to your OT about it? Weighted blankets perhaps? Might they

help?

> I'll ask Putter's OT today when I see her; maybe she will have some

> different ideas.

Our OT says to do OT with him every 2 hours, which I have really been

doing over the last week. We are jumping on the couch, throwing him,

bouncing him, swinging him, squeezing him. It seems like I do

nothing but OT all day. Gabe thinks it's hilarious.

He doesn't like blankets. We have a very heavy blanket I folded into

1/4s. Nope. I have been meaning to make him a weighted vest & we'll

try sleeping him in that. But after 6 hours of sleep, will he be

habituated to it when he wakes up? (I don't know.) Maybe I'll get

that made today...

We also tried a large fluffy pillow (read: dog bed) which he wanted

nothing to do with. I thought the sensation of being surrounded

might help him.

We've thought about getting a hammock...I think he would wake up and

feel trapped and freak out but I could be wrong. I wish there was a

way to try it without having to buy & install one only to find he

hates it...

Hmm...maybe if I wrapped the blanket around him so he couldn't kick

it off? Same problem as above - wake and freak - but perhaps...? He

loves to have that heavy blanket thrown over him and fight his way

out of it. Thinks that's a blast.

I meant to ask our OT about it again this week but she had to cut our

session short & I didn't get a chance. And we won't see her next

week. Maybe I'll email her...

Thanks!!

-Sara.

[Guest guest]

Sara:

It does sound sensory to me and it does sound as if some kind of deep

pressure might help. I don't know if kids always take well at first to

weighted vests and blankets and I don't know if wearing one for too many

hours would reduce the effect. Someone here might know and I would

certainly think your OT would know.

I have a hammock; wanna drive up here and try it out?

Salli

[Guest guest]

----- Original Message ----- > What do you think? I ask honestly. I really

don't know what to do.

> How long did cry? Thanks,

>

> -Sara.

's longest holdout cry was 45 minutes. Obviously not someone to compare

experiences with Mikey!

Like you, I don't believe I could wait out 5 hours of crying. That would be

cruel and unusual; you are absolutely right! That's a whole lot more than

's refusal to change routine.

I hope you can find an OT answer to this conundrum. Personally, I'm not a big

fan of herbal supplements, although I know you are considering them. They make

me pretty nervous, since your average holistic store owner is not as well-versed

on their effects and side-effects as I'd like them to be. But if you have

someone you really trust, who is knowledgable, I hope you can find something to

help!

Sorry I can't be any help in this whatsoever, :-)

Jacquie

[Guest guest]

> I have a hammock; wanna drive up here and try it out?

Salli, actually, we are going to Michigan next week...Planning to go

Tuesday and we were not going to come back till Saturday night or

Sunday morning. Want to get together? We're headed for Flint but

could stop by on the way up or come down one day.

Whadaya think?

-Sara.

[Guest guest]

Sara-

Just a thought...

Have you thought about stopping the every two hour brushings?

I'm thinking that you've been doing them for a while...and if you

haven't seen any dramatic changes, maybe you can give yourslef a

break...

Penny .

[Guest guest]

Sara-

Just a thought...

Have you thought about stopping the every two hour brushings?

I'm thinking that you've been doing them for a while...and if you

haven't seen any dramatic changes, maybe you can give yourslef a

break...

Penny .

[Guest guest]

What about GABA? You can get it from Kirkman Labs. It is a

neurotransmitter blocker? It prevents anxiety messages from being recieved.

I use this for Ebony and it does help. I believe this is natural? You

get contact Kirkman Labs and check. They have a website.

Tamara, mom to Ebony-4 yrs, ASD & -7 months

>

>Reply-To: parenting_autism

>To: <parenting_autism >

>Subject: Re: Re: Sleep

>Date: Fri, 23 Nov 2001 10:33:43 -0500

>

> >

> > I am not ruling Ferber out but I would prefer to address the cause of

> > his difficulty, which I relly think is anxiety caused by his sensory

> > issues.

> >

>

>Sara:

>

>I place a great deal of faith in your feelings in this matter. I don't

>really know of any natural remedies besides melatonin; there must be some

>though. However, things like melatonin also don't really address the

>problem -- which is exactly why you are asking about it. I am sure you have

>talked to your OT about it? Weighted blankets perhaps? Might they help?

>I'll ask Putter's OT today when I see her; maybe she will have some

>different ideas.

>

>Salli

>

_________________________________________________________________

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[Guest guest]

> I'm thinking that you've been doing them for a while...and if you

> haven't seen any dramatic changes, maybe you can give yourslef a

> break...

Sara:

If there is anything Penny is known for on this list, it is sheer

down-to-earth common sense. Ask your OT about this; if brushings don't

work, they are a real pain (they didn't work for Putter; Enrique wouldn't do

them). And if you stop them, you may find out that they do work and then

you could always go back to them.

Sometimes you need to stop something to know what it is worth.

Salli

[Guest guest]

> Sure, why not?

=)

> Well, Enrique would hate it. Does Matt play Nintendo by any

chance? Then

> he would be much more welcome...

Yes, Matt LOVES video games. We don't own a Nintendo but he is

always playing computer games, and he plays whatever system his

brother has when we visit up there. Well that will motivate Matt to

get us there if I tell him he may play video games with your kids the

whole time...

-Sara.

[Guest guest]

Warm Milk in a cup with a tsp of Honey! That will knock him out!

At 08:48 AM 11/22/2001 , you wrote:

>OK, you all know about Mikey's sleep problems. This is really long and

>detailed but the short of it is I need natural means of controlling anxiety.

>Supplements, homeopathic medicines, etc. Mikey is 2 and weighs 34lbs.

>

>I've been reading a lot and trying different things and nothing is working.

>On the advice of my ped I just read the Ferber book. I disagree strongly

>with his methods of sleep training BUT there was a lot of good information

>in the book about sleep and sleep disorders. The short story is, based on

>this book, Mikey has a true sleep disorder which probably needs to be

>treated with intense OT and possibly/probably medication.

>

>He has a 2 hour long bedtime routine. He is VERY rigid about this. I must

>sit a certain way on the couch or he can't go to sleep. Every detail must

>be just so. He gets melatonin at 9:30 and is asleep at 10. Many nights he

>sleeps until 6 or 7. Usually he is up breifly around 4.

>

>According to this book, if he is having anything close to a normal sleep

>cycle, he is waking from REM (dream) sleep at 4, and this is very normal.

>The problem is about 2 or 3 times a week he is simply unable to go back to

>sleep.

>

>I believe this inability has a root cause in anxiety. I have thought this

>for some time but the book clarified some things. Mikey is undersensitive

>in almost every one of his senses. Going to sleep frightens him. Before

>the melatonin he would fight it, even pulling his own hair etc. to keep

>himself awake. I believe he feels like he is floating or even falling when

>he starts to go to sleep.

>

>According to the book, the longest period of the most restful sleep occurs

>early in the night. I think Mikey is getting this sleep, waking after REM

>sleep (normal) and then his anxiety keeps him from going back to sleep.

>Because he's already had his most restful sleep of the night, his body is

>not tired enough to force him back to sleep. A second dose of melatonin

>does not work at this time. We have been using chloryl hydrate. I hate

>doing it but I have to sleep. My husband is unable to help during the week

>because he works third shift so I am on my own during the week & trying to

> " catch up " on weekends. At bedtime melatonin makes a remarkable difference.

>It also enables him to sleep 6 hours instead of 3. Before we started it, he

>would wake after 3 hours and be unable to go back to sleep, so it does make

>a dramatic difference.

>

>It is obvious that he needs more sleep than this. At times he literally

>falls asleep on his feet. He will stand next to me, rest his head on my

>chest or shoulder, and before I know it he's sound asleep. Usually I catch

>him up, but sometimes he will fall over. In addition I believe some of his

>hyperactivity may actually be a symptom of being OVERtired. I really think

>he would do better with 10 or 11 hours at night and a one-hour nap but he

>never sleeps more than 9 hours and often only 8, without any disturbances in

>the night. The bad nights are 2-3 times a week & he sleeps 6 hours or less.

>

>ANYWAY, as I said at the beginning, I would like some natural means of

>addressing his anxiety. Ideally this would be something he could have at

>bedtime and/or during the day that would help him sleep through by lessening

>his anxiety when he wakes at 4. Because this anxiety is based in his

>sensory issues we are doing LOTS of OT every day, including a full hour-long

>session at 8pm, and little sessions every 2 hours. These also help with the

>sleep as well as many aspects of behavior; he is even able to see and hear

>more normally based on his responses and cessation of visual and auditory

>self-stimulatory behaviors.

>

>-Sara.

>wife to Matt

>SAHM to nurslings

>Mikey, 9/14/99, Autism, and

>Gabe, born at home 5/17/01, GERD

>http://home.earthlink.net/~thebyks

>

>

>

>