My AS/AS problem.

[Guest guest]

Bill, I'm don't feel I am understanding what you are asking for... But I wanted to say I am in a similar situation, opposite side, with my presumed (by me) AS (possibly obsessive compulsive and paranoid as well) mother. She and I do not speak. I'm not sure that her behavior correlates with your own behavior with your son you seem to me to be a logical person which my mother apparently missed out on entirely, but perhaps I could be of some help if I understood better what you are asking. Jennie AS left my mother's house with "icy civility" after my father's funeral at the being of the year. Sent on the Sprint® Now Network from my BlackBerry®Sender: aspires-relationships Date: Sun, 25 Sep 2011 23:26:36 -0700To: ASPIRES list-serve<aspires-relationships >ReplyTo: aspires-relationships Subject: My AS/AS problem. My bad. I should have, but did not change the subject line on my last post.The actual subject matter is more unusual here than most, and it's very important to me. So I'm re-posting the original - lightly edited - to attract more comment. ...Hopefully useful advice from anyone with a similar experience.Herein I'll identify my elder, independent and competent 54-year old son as " POL " .In the circumstances surrounding the divorce from my first wife, POL and the other two of my children wound up living in Alaska. All now are widely separated even from each other.Extremes of distance, with concomitant expense, have inhibited our face-to-face contact for all the intervening 45 years. But we DID maintain contact: largely by snail-mail, exchange of small gifts, Xmas- and Birthday-cards, telephone calls and latterly by email.By far the best of those relationships has been with POL We exchanged *visits* every 3-5 years: military standby flights for him; a few commercial flights and one driving trip for me.Generally our visits lasted no more than 3-4 days. With years of prior revelations from him, this was more than enough information and time for me to *know* POL indeed is AS. In too many ways, he is his father's son.This year, at my request (personal reasons) and his suggestion for length, he visited for *all* of June. Within a week our conversations were strained; in another they'd become ... " pointed " . Eventually his outright aggressive side surfaced, and our relationship went straight into the toilet.I could see in his eyes (I learned how long ago) just how much pain *he* was feeling. He *knew* what was happening but seemed unable to stop himself. I was devastated; had no clue what to do....No. I knew what to do -- just none of it was working.We parted in an atmosphere of icy civility on his part, strained confusion on mine. Since then we've no significant communication. His choice it seems.Fire away -- please.- Bill-- WD " Bill " Loughman - Berkeley, California USAhttp://home.earthlink.net/~wdloughman/wdl.htm

[Guest guest]

jenniee@... wrote:

> Bill, I'm don't feel I am understanding what you are asking for...

Good hearing your voice Jennie. Hello, and thanks for replying.

> But I wanted to say I am in a similar situation, opposite side, with

> my presumed (by me) AS (possibly obsessive compulsive and paranoid as

> well) mother. She and I do not speak. I'm not sure that her behavior

I'm sorry to hear that.

> correlates with your own behavior with your son you seem to me to be

> a logical person which my mother apparently missed out on entirely,

Yes, I'm " logical " . Also reasonable, compassionate, ever friendly, etc,

etc. As you know, my wife and me turned our south-sliding marriage

around 180 deg. But I've never before been in such a situation as I

have now. Really I'm flummoxed; maybe not thinking straight. That's

strange to me as well.

> but perhaps I could be of some help if I understood better what you

> are asking.

If only I knew what I was looking for... This is a completely

unexpected situation (after 40 years of good vibes), as well as an

unwelcome one.

Gregg's response may be close to what happened here with POL. As I

told Gregg though, my son is no-way no-how a " talker " about the " deep "

things in his life.

P. does know he's likely AS; generally doesn't like to discuss it.

....And we weren't/hadn't.

He was set to move into a new supervisory position, and he really

doesn't like being an " official " supervisor. We'd discussed that even

weeks before he visited; I believed he had it all squared away in his head.

There's a lot more I could tell, of course, but I don't really know

where - exactly - to begin. He's always seemed rather satisfied with

the arc of his life.

What would be your approach to such a one -- to start things moving in a

better direction?

>

> Jennie AS left my mother's house with " icy civility " after my

> father's funeral at the being of the year.

>

> Sent on the Sprint® Now Network from my BlackBerry®

>

>

> My AS/AS problem.

>

> My bad. I should have, but did not change the subject line on my

> last post. The actual subject matter is more unusual here than most,

> and it's very important to me. So I'm re-posting the original -

> lightly edited - to attract more comment. ...Hopefully useful advice

> from anyone with a similar experience.

>

> Herein I'll identify my elder, independent and competent 54-year old

> son as " POL " .

>

> In the circumstances surrounding the divorce from my first wife, POL

> and the other two of my children wound up living in Alaska. All now

> are widely separated even from each other. Extremes of distance, with

> concomitant expense, have inhibited our face-to-face contact for all

> the intervening 45 years. But we DID maintain contact: largely by

> snail-mail, exchange of small gifts, Xmas- and Birthday-cards,

> telephone calls and latterly by email.

>

> By far the best of those relationships has been with POL We

> exchanged *visits* every 3-5 years: military standby flights for him;

> a few commercial flights and one driving trip for me. Generally our

> visits lasted no more than 3-4 days. With years of prior revelations

> from him, this was more than enough information and time for me to

> *know* POL indeed is AS. In too many ways, he is his father's son.

>

> This year, at my request (personal reasons) and his suggestion for

> length, he visited for *all* of June. Within a week our

> conversations were strained; in another they'd become ... " pointed " .

> Eventually his outright aggressive side surfaced, and our

> relationship went straight into the toilet.

>

> I could see in his eyes (I learned how long ago) just how much pain

> *he* was feeling. He *knew* what was happening but seemed unable to

> stop himself. I was devastated; had no clue what to do.

>

> ...No. I knew what to do -- just none of it was working. We parted

> in an atmosphere of icy civility on his part, strained confusion on

> mine. Since then we've no significant communication. His choice it

> seems.

>

> Fire away -- please.

>

> - Bill

>

--

WD " Bill " Loughman - Berkeley, California USA

http://home.earthlink.net/~wdloughman/wdl.htm

[Guest guest]

Greg Greer wrote:

> Bill,

>

> I can see a lot of parallels between me and my own wife and daughters. I

> travel on business a lot and things are strained to some degree most of

> the time. In this case they are the ones who are suffering from strained

> confusion and I am the one who gets anxious and my loner side rears up and

> insists on time out which they cannot understand and I have much

> difficulty in controlling. I am just so much more comfortable on my own

> and find it difficult to live with others. It has got worse as I have got

> older for some reason.

Hmm; I wonder. POL owns his own 2-bdrm home but lives alone.

...By choice, but at the same time he wishes he didn't. Never

married, he came close only once, a lo-o-ng time ago. Unusual

situation; no one's fault it didn't come off; they remained good friends

for many years. But he never really got over it either (bottled it up)

and appears no longer to be looking for (suitable?) female companionship.

>

> So I know and understand what I think your son may be going through. It

> is the same with my own family of origin. I spend a few days with them

> then the rot sets in and I have to get on my way.

Uh-oh. Could that be *literal* with my son?

He's a " biker " - of the benign sort - and uses his car only in the

worst weather and deepest winter. Rest of the time it's his Harley and

" full leathers " . He spends a *lot* of his free time on the road, more

often solo than with company. Independent as a hog on ice.

When/while he's here, he always has had our house keys, car keys,

complete run of the place and full independence. *This* time he never

went anywhere on his own behalf for the full 33-day span.

I wondered some about that. But it wasn't all work and no play.

Though I'm less mobile now than " back in the day " , we did do some

fun things together; getting out of the house and all. Still, whenever

I tired while working and wanted to take a break, he'd ask " what's next "

and start on " the next " by himself. [Cool kid, I said to myself.]

Betimes I suggested he slow down, have a beer and relax.

He'd remind me of the accumulated " awkward " chores which now I and

Kay together no longer can manage alone (why I'd asked him to come).

And he couldn't remember any previous time when I'd had to ask *anyone*

for help with my husbandly chores. And, " Dad, I *enjoy* helping you " .

And then..., within weeks it all went down the drain.

Do you see anything in there, Gregg? Have I been utterly blind and stoopid?

> Obviously something

> psychological going on but it is explained by the AS diagnosis according

> to my psychologist and is entirely expected based on the part of the

> spectrum I am in.

Gregg, would you explain that a bit? " Expected " ?

>

> The thing is I look forward to getting back together but that wears off

> after a few days and I itch for something new to turn my attention and

> focus to. It is a perpetual restlessness that infects me.

An odd but very interesting turn of phrase. Could you describe that more?

>

> Cheers and good to have you back

Thank you. Feels good to be back.

>

> To: aspires-relationships

> Date: 26/09/2011 07:02 AM

> Subject: Re: Survival Rules updated 20th September

2011

> Sent by: aspires-relationships

[ snip ]

> That's an unexpected reminder of one of my two reasons for re-joining

> ASPIRES: The recent and now blown-out-of-the-water relationship with my

> (likely AS) elder son, who I'll call " POL " .

[ snip ]

> We parted in an atmosphere of icy civility on his part, strained

> confusion on mine. Since then we've no significant communication. His

> choice it seems.

>

> Fire away -- please.

- Bill ...AS, 79

--

WD " Bill " Loughman - Berkeley, California USA

http://home.earthlink.net/~wdloughman/wdl.htm

[Guest guest]

Hi Bill... taking me awhile here...

I don't know what happened between you and your son... so I decided I will just share what happened between myself and my mother and you can decide for yourself if any of it sounds similar and then we can go from there.

My situation is different in that I grew up WITH my mother. She has always been a thorn in my side, so to speak. However I tend to be a person who lets things run off my back for a long, long, long time. I just deflect things, change the subject, say things like hmmmm, yeah, interesting... It's just EASIER to deal with her that way. However inevitably she pushes it over the edge by taking this as PERMISSION to judge me and my life and/or tell me how to live. Typically in the past I have told her to back off and she would give me the silent treatment for a while and then I would call or write and she would pretend nothing happened and things would move on until it happened again. What finally sent it over the edge was when she decided to get involved in the decision my husband and I made about dealing with HIS family. I had told her they were abusive and that we didn't see them much anymore. SHE decided to sit down with my husband's aunt and uncle and 'discuss out of love' with them, and asked them to come talk to us to 'set us right' about how we were dealing with husband's parents. I informed her in no uncertain terms that this was wrong, none of her business and that she needed to apologize. She made lots of excuses and denial but did not apologize.

At the beginning of this year my father passed and we went back for the funeral. I was actually on my way across country to be with him in the hospital when he died. So I was additionally angry with her because she left my father alone in the hospital to die because she needed to 'take care of her animals'. If this was a one time thing one might excuse it because of stress but this is the same woman who refused to visit her dying daughter when asked by the daughter. It's just not ok, I don't care a rat's butt if she's AS or anything else or everything else, she's an intelligent person who knows basic human needs, she knows SHE would not want to be left alone in the hospital to die.

Anyway, so the stage was set when we got there... I made the decision this was not the time to deal with any of the past garbage or even to deal with the fact that she left my dad alone. So I was polite. She spent the entire time trying to corner me alone so she could pitch in. She finally succeeded at cornering me WITH my husband, and then proceeded to follow the same routine I have heard from her my entire life. She starts with her religious belief bandaid which she uses to excuse herself from any bad thing she's ever done without any real sorrow over what she has done to hurt others. When I called her on that the real her came out and thus ensued a long drawn out stupid 'argument' about how mean I am and how hurtful I am, completely disregarding what SHE did. When I pointed out to her that I would never have said the blunt (and TRUTHFUL) things I said if SHE had minded her own business she fell back on it being her 'right' to speak up when her kid is doing something 'wrong'. (She is mad at me because I told her with detail WHY we have cut off contact with hubby's sexually abusive family, yet she didn't believe me when I told her they were abusive.) When I pointed out that we weren't doing anything wrong we were protecting our kids from abusive pedophiles she had nothing to say. This is typical of her. It doesn't matter how serious the issue or how horrible someone else has been, I am always the one who is wrong. So I left. I just turned around, walked up the stairs, said good bye to my siblings (who probably all thought it was my fault because mom is good at looking innocent) and I left because there is no point in trying to get her to see sense. Since then the only contact I have had from her is a birthday card she sent to my daughter and a brief thank you note she sent for money we sent her to help pay my dad's hospital bills. Oh and guilt trips sent via relatives.

I would hate to think that anything remotely similar to this has happened between you and your son... but if there's a lesson to be learned by parents from my experience it's that taking total and complete responsibility for things that have happened in our kid's lives is KEY to relationship. I am getting more and more tired of parents who claim they 'couldn't help it' or 'it just happened' or 'they meant it lovingly' or some other such rot. Really, from the kid's perspective... who cares?? From the child's perspective the parents had total control of their world... so naturally they blame bad things on the parents. Why can't parents just take the blame, regardless of extenuating circumstances out of their control. Would it kill us? Why can't parents just say, "You are right, I SHOULD have done better, I shouldn't have done xyz, I SHOULD have done xyz..." whatever the case is... why not just GIVE it to the kid? Why not say, "What you wanted from me was right and good and if I could do it over again I would do everything to give that to you. But I was a stupid, immature so and so at the time and I just didn't get it." (or whatever applies) Affirm their feelings. Hope this makes sense....

Jennie AS

> My AS/AS problem.>> My bad. I should have, but did not change the subject line on my> last post. The actual subject matter is more unusual here than most,> and it's very important to me. So I'm re-posting the original -> lightly edited - to attract more comment. ...Hopefully useful advice> from anyone with a similar experience.>> Herein I'll identify my elder, independent and competent 54-year old> son as "POL".>> In the circumstances surrounding the divorce from my first wife, POL> and the other two of my children wound up living in Alaska. All now> are widely separated even from each other. Extremes of distance, with> concomitant expense, have inhibited our face-to-face contact for all> the intervening 45 years. But we DID maintain contact: largely by> snail-mail, exchange of small gifts, Xmas- and Birthday-cards,> telephone calls and latterly by email.>> By far the best of those relationships has been with POL We> exchanged *visits* every 3-5 years: military standby flights for him;> a few commercial flights and one driving trip for me. Generally our> visits lasted no more than 3-4 days. With years of prior revelations> from him, this was more than enough information and time for me to> *know* POL indeed is AS. In too many ways, he is his father's son.>> This year, at my request (personal reasons) and his suggestion for> length, he visited for *all* of June. Within a week our> conversations were strained; in another they'd become ..."pointed".> Eventually his outright aggressive side surfaced, and our> relationship went straight into the toilet.>> I could see in his eyes (I learned how long ago) just how much pain> *he* was feeling. He *knew* what was happening but seemed unable to> stop himself. I was devastated; had no clue what to do.>> ...No. I knew what to do -- just none of it was working. We parted> in an atmosphere of icy civility on his part, strained confusion on> mine. Since then we've no significant communication. His choice it> seems.>> Fire away -- please.>> - Bill>-- WD "Bill" Loughman - Berkeley, California USAhttp://home.earthlink.net/~wdloughman/wdl.htm

[Guest guest]

It's really good to get some affirmation from someone of your generation Bill... sorry it wasn't overly helpful to you in understanding what went on with your son. I can't tell you how many people, even having heard the whole story, will still dump the responsibility and blame on my shoulders and indicate to me that I should be more 'forgiving' and 'respectful' and I should just accept that my mother is 'just that way'. They seem to have no understanding that I AM accepting her as she is... I am doing that by saying I don't wish to be with or around someone like her instead of trying to change her or constantly living in some fantasy world that says if I just be nice enough to her she will start being nice to me.

Sounds like your mom was cut from the same cloth... maybe they are related. LOL Let's see.... my mom is predominately German and English with a dash of Irish and as of yet unproven rumors of Cherokee and Black heritage. (Partly because the family is racist and wouldn't admit to it if there was proof. But so far I haven't been able to find any myself.)

Thank You!

Jennie AS

[Guest guest]

Jennie Unknown wrote:

> It's really good to get some affirmation from someone of your

> generation Bill.

De nada. Between the two of us maybe others will learn some things

they didn't know.

> ... sorry it wasn't overly helpful to you in

> understanding what went on with your son.

[ snip ]

Them's the breaks. When all one has is lemons - make lemonade.

There is a " bright side " to my problem, I guess: An education for me.

Though AS myself, I'm in the position of an NT parent dealing with

an AS son. I'm on the receiving end, looking through an NT's eyes

(figuratively), and I don't like it a bit.

>

> Sounds like your mom was cut from the same cloth... maybe they are

> related. LOL

Be cool if they were (you'd be my cousin?). Very unlikely though,

unless she can find a spot among the Gibbels, Buchers and Bubbs in

Mennonite/Anabaptist country.

> Let's see.... my mom is predominately German and English

That's halfway there, sort of:

My mother, with her entire extended family, spoke only a

Swiss-German dialect ( " Shwytz " - a progenitor of " Schweizerdeutsch " ).

....That is, until the US entry into WW-I (and prudence) made that

practice unwise.

> with a dash of Irish and as of yet unproven rumors of Cherokee and

> Black heritage. (Partly because the family is racist and wouldn't

> admit to it if there was proof. But so far I haven't been able to

> find any myself.)

Heh. As mentioned here a few years back, it's *my wife* who has

Cherokee blood and/but *we* are related (through the families cited above).

There's some Black in my family too, courtesy of Hannibal during one

of the Punic wars, when some of his Ethiopian troops didn't make it

across the Alps and stayed in one of sheltered Swiss valleys.

But it is a small world. ... " Six degrees of separation " and all that.

>

> Thank You!

>

> Jennie AS

- Bill ...AS, 79

--

WD " Bill " Loughman - Berkeley, California USA

http://home.earthlink.net/~wdloughman/wdl.htm

[Guest guest]

Warning to folk... this is mostly me bunny trailing about genealogy...so delete if uninterested.

Re: My AS problem.

Jennie Unknown wrote:> It's really good to get some affirmation from someone of your> generation Bill.De nada. Between the two of us maybe others will learn some things they didn't know.

That would be good!

There is a "bright side" to my problem, I guess: An education for me.Though AS myself, I'm in the position of an NT parent dealing with an AS son. I'm on the receiving end, looking through an NT's eyes (figuratively), and I don't like it a bit.

I get that from my kids now and again. It's hard to determine if it's really an AS problem or some other problem though. Sometimes feels like a crap shoot.

> Sounds like your mom was cut from the same cloth... maybe they are> related. LOLBe cool if they were (you'd be my cousin?). Very unlikely though, unless she can find a spot among the Gibbels, Buchers and Bubbs in Mennonite/Anabaptist country.

Probably a 3rd, 4th or 5th cousin... Don't recall any Gibbels, Buchers or Bubbs. Could very well be some Mennonite/Anabaptist though... that side of my family is very much of that leaning and the church I grew up in isn't very far removed so far as ways of thinking go. My grandparents on that side of the family converted into the church I grew up in, so their families may have been anything. Surnames I can think of: Rhoades, Faler, Bruner, Hall, Wilcox, Zimmerman, Bowerman, Shellenburger,... I could go on and on.... Love geneaology when I have the time. :-)

> Let's see.... my mom is predominately German and EnglishThat's halfway there, sort of:My mother, with her entire extended family, spoke only a Swiss-German dialect ("Shwytz" - a progenitor of "Schweizerdeutsch"). ...That is, until the US entry into WW-I (and prudence) made that practice unwise.

Hmmm no Swiss that I know of... but there are a couple branches we have been unable to trace much.

> with a dash of Irish and as of yet unproven rumors of Cherokee and> Black heritage. (Partly because the family is racist and wouldn't> admit to it if there was proof. But so far I haven't been able to> find any myself.)Heh. As mentioned here a few years back, it's *my wife* who has Cherokee blood and/but *we* are related (through the families cited above).There's some Black in my family too, courtesy of Hannibal during one of the Punic wars, when some of his Ethiopian troops didn't make it across the Alps and stayed in one of sheltered Swiss valleys.

I just personally believe we have some Black by virtue of an old photo of a gg grandmother. Her features are very black and and even though her hair is pulled back tight in a bun it still has some obvious wave. That part of the family at some point came from down south so I would not be at all surprised to find out she was the daughter of a slave owner. The Cherokee rumor comes from a great uncle who says he was told this by someone (I forget... the grandfather or....) And I am WAY off topic....

Jennie AS

[Guest guest]

Welcome back, Bill..

>

> My bad. I should have, but did not change the subject line on my last post.

> The actual subject matter is more unusual here than most, and it's

> very important to me. So I'm re-posting the original - lightly edited -

> to attract more comment. ...Hopefully useful advice from anyone with a

> similar experience.

>

> Herein I'll identify my elder, independent and competent 54-year old son

> as " POL " .

>

> In the circumstances surrounding the divorce from my first wife, POL and

> the other two of my children wound up living in Alaska. All now are

> widely separated even from each other.

> Extremes of distance, with concomitant expense, have inhibited our

> face-to-face contact for all the intervening 45 years. But we DID

> maintain contact: largely by snail-mail, exchange of small gifts, Xmas-

> and Birthday-cards, telephone calls and latterly by email.

>

> By far the best of those relationships has been with POL We exchanged

> *visits* every 3-5 years: military standby flights for him; a few

> commercial flights and one driving trip for me.

> Generally our visits lasted no more than 3-4 days. With years of

> prior revelations from him, this was more than enough information and

> time for me to *know* POL indeed is AS. In too many ways, he is his

> father's son.

>

> This year, at my request (personal reasons) and his suggestion for

> length, he visited for *all* of June. Within a week our conversations

> were strained; in another they'd become ... " pointed " . Eventually his

> outright aggressive side surfaced, and our relationship went straight

> into the toilet.

>

> I could see in his eyes (I learned how long ago) just how much pain *he*

> was feeling. He *knew* what was happening but seemed unable to stop

> himself. I was devastated; had no clue what to do.

>

> ...No. I knew what to do -- just none of it was working.

> We parted in an atmosphere of icy civility on his part, strained

> confusion on mine. Since then we've no significant communication. His

> choice it seems.

>

> Fire away -- please.

>

> - Bill

>

> --

> WD " Bill " Loughman - Berkeley, California USA

> http://home.earthlink.net/~wdloughman/wdl.htm

>

[Guest guest]

wrote:

> Welcome back, Bill..

Thanks .

And " Thank you! " as well to those who said the same earlier without

getting a personal response. Color me apologetic.

- Bill ...AS, 79

--

WD " Bill " Loughman - Berkeley, California USA

http://home.earthlink.net/~wdloughman/wdl.htm