Guest guest Posted February 21, 2011 Report Share Posted February 21, 2011 Randy, what makes you such a superb writer also entails bringing a discerning eye to all writing, even that posted by others. I'm sure that your intent when you post is to inform and clarify, and your expertise in that area is invaluable to the list. But sometimes it may not serve communication well, as you graciously acknowledge. Maybe you could put that sadness in the drawer next to the red socks. We need you here! Helena Re: To the moderators > I'm feeling sad just now. To expand on that, lest it seem a call for help: I am sad as always when communication seems to breakdown. At the same time I can see 's point about nit-picking. And then I'm back to feeling sad. Maybe I can make something out of that sadness.To borrow a quote from 's recent & excellent post that resonates with me strongly: "Now my brain (or mind) is telling me that I have posted too much and have probably, yet again, muddied the waters and I should delete it. But that would be an action in service of avoiding how anxious I feel if someone is *not helped* by my post. So, I will move in the direction of my value of connecting to others and hit send now."Hitting send, taking a break for awhile. - R. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 21, 2011 Report Share Posted February 21, 2011 Hi - I now understand what you were saying and I appreciate you hanging in there with me through my confusion. And I hope you will continue to post. You bring a different helpful perspective. I am currently reading a book about relational frame theory which is making me a bit geeky. I tried to put your post through the RFT matix and got lost. Bill To: ACT_for_the_Public From: castonemsw@...Date: Mon, 21 Feb 2011 10:16:20 -0500Subject: Re: To the moderators Hi folks, I do apologize for the confusion my post seems to have generated in some of you. The original post was for Helena, and anyone else who, like me, often feels overwhelmed by the desire to help and the frustration that it seems I cannot "fix" something that I so desperately want to fix. The second post was an attempt to respond to Bill's question about "how do I know when it's something I cannot possibly help with". Those words (something I cannot possibly help with) had been taken directly from Helena's first post and put into my first post in an attempt to help her defuse from those same words. It appeared to me that those exact words were making her feel bad. I was not trying to say to anyone that you should not (or should) do something that you hope will be helpful. Then, in my second post, what I was trying to say was only that the idea of whether or not "I" can be helpful is individual to each of us. Luckily, not everyone gets overwhelmed by the same things at the same times. Also, whether or not any given person reading this list (whether the poster you are responding to or anyone else) finds something written here "helpful" is also individual to each person. Often, we never really know whether something we have done is helpful to someone else. I would never suggest to someone to "only notice and not do" . I would, however, suggest that we notice and do and that we notice if the doing is more about avoiding an unpleasant feeling or the doing is about moving in the direction of values (how I want to be). Now my brain (or mind) is telling me that I have posted too much and have probably, yet again, muddied the waters and I should delete it. But that would be an action in service of avoiding how anxious I feel if someone is *not helped* by my post. So, I will move in the direction of my value of connecting to others and hit send now. Wishing you all a moment or two of peace today, OK, . I slept on it and I still don't see the distinction between ""things we cannot possibly help with" and our brain telling us that we cannot possibly help with this. " My fallable brain seems to be in charge of choosing between the two. Until I do I won't know if your post is useful to me. But your post did trigger another thought. Taking things lightly is great for the people who can do so and think to do it. For the rest, we need some help from time to time which entails others taking a risk to try to help us as opposed to sitting back and taking a desperate post lightly. I hope you will post more often as I think you have something to teach us. So please don't take our posts too lightly. Sincerely, Bill To: ACT_for_the_Public From: castonemsw@...Date: Sun, 20 Feb 2011 23:43:23 -0500 Subject: Re: To the moderatorsBill, It seems to me there is a difference between "things we cannot possibly help with" and our brain telling us that we cannot possibly help with this. In fact "help" itself is a totally brain-created "thing", right? We cannot see, hear, smell, taste, or touch "help", so it must be created by brains and by each individual brain in each specific context. This would make it a very slippery thing to "know". - Thank you for your thoughtful post.I assume it is in response to Helen'as post. But it makes me wonder how do I know when it's something I "cannot possibly help with." I feel like I can help. Bill To: ACT_for_the_Public From: castonemsw@...Date: Sun, 20 Feb 2011 19:08:13 -0500Subject: Re: To the moderators I wonder if you could notice what your brain is telling you when people post about things that you cannot possibly help with. I wonder if you could notice that helplessness and be willing to have it, without having to change it or have someone else prevent it from being triggered. I wonder if you could be willing to have this list and your own thoughts about needing to help and your feelings of helplessness exactly as it is. *posted with warmth and genuine curiosity* Hello, There have been many posts here recently that are quite serious and possibly deadly -- the poster talks about a death wish. You moderators are in charge of keeping things like that away from the list members, since we cannot possibly help in such crisis situations. This is not a therapy group. although we can give support in a lot of situations. But we cannot help those who are in such serious trouble. Why allow that to be put on us? Please, cannot you not direct such needy people to the right therapy and not have them rely on us for help? We are not professionals. And when a poster obviously needs professional help, could you not direct them toward that instead of letting them keep floundering here? Feeling helpless, Helena -- -- -- Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 21, 2011 Report Share Posted February 21, 2011 Just my $.02, I really appreciate the comments and perspectives offered on this list, whether by amateurs or professionals. I can't speak for any one else, especially Haakon, but a simple reply from the list is a lifeline for me. If it's my question you're considering, please don't hold back for fear of doing harm. That said, I understand the concern about not offering medical advice. But I haven't seen anything that seems like that to me.BruceHi - I now understand what you were saying and I appreciate you hanging in there with me through my confusion. And I hope you will continue to post. You bring a different helpful perspective. I am currently reading a book about relational frame theory which is making me a bit geeky. I tried to put your post through the RFT matix and got lost. Bill To: ACT_for_the_Public From: castonemsw@...Date: Mon, 21 Feb 2011 10:16:20 -0500Subject: Re: To the moderatorsHi folks,I do apologize for the confusion my post seems to have generated in some of you. The original post was for Helena, and anyone else who, like me, often feels overwhelmed by the desire to help and the frustration that it seems I cannot "fix" something that I so desperately want to fix. The second post was an attempt to respond to Bill's question about "how do I know when it's something I cannot possibly help with". Those words (something I cannot possibly help with) had been taken directly from Helena's first post and put into my first post in an attempt to help her defuse from those same words. It appeared to me that those exact words were making her feel bad. I was not trying to say to anyone that you should not (or should) do something that you hope will be helpful. Then, in my second post, what I was trying to say was only that the idea of whether or not "I" can be helpful is individual to each of us. Luckily, not everyone gets overwhelmed by the same things at the same times. Also, whether or not any given person reading this list (whether the poster you are responding to or anyone else) finds something written here "helpful" is also individual to each person. Often, we never really know whether something we have done is helpful to someone else. I would never suggest to someone to "only notice and not do" . I would, however, suggest that we notice and do and that we notice if the doing is more about avoiding an unpleasant feeling or the doing is about moving in the direction of values (how I want to be). Now my brain (or mind) is telling me that I have posted too much and have probably, yet again, muddied the waters and I should delete it. But that would be an action in service of avoiding how anxious I feel if someone is *not helped* by my post. So, I will move in the direction of my value of connecting to others and hit send now.Wishing you all a moment or two of peace today, OK, . I slept on it and I still don't see the distinction between ""things we cannot possibly help with" and our brain telling us that we cannot possibly help with this. " My fallable brain seems to be in charge of choosing between the two. Until I do I won't know if your post is useful to me. But your post did trigger another thought. Taking things lightly is great for the people who can do so and think to do it. For the rest, we need some help from time to time which entails others taking a risk to try to help us as opposed to sitting back and taking a desperate post lightly. I hope you will post more often as I think you have something to teach us. So please don't take our posts too lightly. Sincerely, Bill To: ACT_for_the_Public From: castonemsw@...Date: Sun, 20 Feb 2011 23:43:23 -0500Subject: Re: To the moderatorsBill,It seems to me there is a difference between "things we cannot possibly help with" and our brain telling us that we cannot possibly help with this. In fact "help" itself is a totally brain-created "thing", right? We cannot see, hear, smell, taste, or touch "help", so it must be created by brains and by each individual brain in each specific context. This would make it a very slippery thing to "know". - Thank you for your thoughtful post.I assume it is in response to Helen'as post. But it makes me wonder how do I know when it's something I "cannot possibly help with." I feel like I can help. Bill To: ACT_for_the_Public From: castonemsw@...Date: Sun, 20 Feb 2011 19:08:13 -0500Subject: Re: To the moderatorsI wonder if you could notice what your brain is telling you when people post about things that you cannot possibly help with. I wonder if you could notice that helplessness and be willing to have it, without having to change it or have someone else prevent it from being triggered. I wonder if you could be willing to have this list and your own thoughts about needing to help and your feelings of helplessness exactly as it is.*posted with warmth and genuine curiosity* Hello, There have been many posts here recently that are quite serious and possibly deadly -- the poster talks about a death wish. You moderators are in charge of keeping things like that away from the list members, since we cannot possibly help in such crisis situations. This is not a therapy group. although we can give support in a lot of situations. But we cannot help those who are in such serious trouble. Why allow that to be put on us? Please, cannot you not direct such needy people to the right therapy and not have them rely on us for help? We are not professionals. And when a poster obviously needs professional help, could you not direct them toward that instead of letting them keep floundering here? Feeling helpless, Helena -- -- -- Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 21, 2011 Report Share Posted February 21, 2011 Well, I read it twice and I have to admit your word picture doesn't really resonate with me. But thanks anyway! Maybe I just don't see myself as lightly wounded, for starters. Helena Re: To the moderators You must be the same Helena who started the Troyan war :-) I am a newbie here and don't speak for anybody, but if people with psychological pain bother you, maybe this list is not for you? I can only speak for myself: knowing that there are other people who are hurting does not negatively impact me, although it does make me empathize. YMMV. Hello, There have been many posts here recently that are quite serious and possibly deadly -- the poster talks about a death wish. You moderators are in charge of keeping things like that away from the list members, since we cannot possibly help in such crisis situations. This is not a therapy group. although we can give support in a lot of situations. But we cannot help those who are in such serious trouble. Why allow that to be put on us? Please, cannot you not direct such needy people to the right therapy and not have them rely on us for help? We are not professionals. And when a poster obviously needs professional help, could you not direct them toward that instead of letting them keep floundering here? Feeling helpless, Helena Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 21, 2011 Report Share Posted February 21, 2011 Helena,Maybe I misunderstood, but my perception of your letter was that you felt the other person is more " needy " than yourself, " in a crisis situation " and therefore it is " moderators' duty " to not allow them to " flounder " at this list where they can't be helped, but can make you feel bad. Did I get you right? Call me crazy, but is not it precisely when someone else is in a major crisis that we are supposed to forget about ourselves and our own pain? At which point does our avoidance become an ethical issue?  Well, I read it twice and I have to admit your word picture doesn't really resonate with me. But thanks anyway! Maybe I just don't see myself as lightly wounded, for starters.  Helena Re: To the moderators You must be the same Helena who started the Troyan war :-) I am a newbie here and don't speak for anybody, but if people with psychological pain bother you, maybe this list is not for you?  I can only speak for myself: knowing that there are other people who are hurting does not negatively impact me, although it does make me empathize. YMMV.  Hello,  There have been many posts here recently that are quite serious and possibly deadly -- the poster talks about a death wish.  You moderators are in charge of keeping things like that away from the list members, since we cannot possibly help in such crisis situations.  This is not a therapy group. although we can give support in a lot of situations. But we cannot help those who are in such serious trouble. Why allow that to be put on us? Please, cannot you not direct such needy people to the right therapy and not have them rely on us for help? We are not professionals. And when a poster obviously needs professional help, could you not direct them toward that instead of letting them keep floundering here?  Feeling helpless,  Helena     Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 21, 2011 Report Share Posted February 21, 2011 Hey Bill and I'm also reading a book about RFT called - fittingly enough - Learning RFT by Dr. Torneke. Is it the same or different book?SignatureIf you live in New York City and are interested in joining or forming an ACT Study Group, please contact me. C. Hello, There have been many posts here recently that are quite serious and possibly deadly -- the poster talks about a death wish. You moderators are in charge of keeping things like that away from the list members, since we cannot possibly help in such crisis situations. This is not a therapy group. although we can give support in a lot of situations. But we cannot help those who are in such serious trouble. Why allow that to be put on us? Please, cannot you not direct such needy people to the right therapy and not have them rely on us for help? We are not professionals. And when a poster obviously needs professional help, could you not direct them toward that instead of letting them keep floundering here? Feeling helpless, Helena -- -- -- Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 21, 2011 Report Share Posted February 21, 2011 Hi Jane, I think I'll pass on answering the questions, if you don't mind. I see no value into getting into a "back and forth" discussion here. As far as I'm concerned, the issue of my post to the moderators has been settled with insight and understanding from the moderators. Helena Maybe I misunderstood, but my perception of your letter was that you felt the other person is more "needy" than yourself, "in a crisis situation" and therefore it is "moderators' duty" to not allow them to "flounder" at this list where they can't be helped, but can make you feel bad. Did I get you right? Call me crazy, but is not it precisely when someone else is in a major crisis that we are supposed to forget about ourselves and our own pain? At which point does our avoidance become an ethical issue? Switch to: Text-Only, Daily Digest • Unsubscribe • Terms of Use .. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 21, 2011 Report Share Posted February 21, 2011 Yes. I'm liking it. I'm the kind that has to understand what's under the hood. I'm struggling with the jargon a bit. Check this out as well. http://www.thehappinesstrap.com/upimages/the_house_of_ACT.pdf Bill To: ACT_for_the_Public From: carlos.carlos333@...Date: Mon, 21 Feb 2011 15:10:45 -0800Subject: RE: To the moderators Hey Bill and I'm also reading a book about RFT called - fittingly enough - Learning RFT by Dr. Torneke. Is it the same or different book?SignatureIf you live in New York City and are interested in joining or forming an ACT Study Group, please contact me. C. Hello, There have been many posts here recently that are quite serious and possibly deadly -- the poster talks about a death wish. You moderators are in charge of keeping things like that away from the list members, since we cannot possibly help in such crisis situations. This is not a therapy group. although we can give support in a lot of situations. But we cannot help those who are in such serious trouble. Why allow that to be put on us? Please, cannot you not direct such needy people to the right therapy and not have them rely on us for help? We are not professionals. And when a poster obviously needs professional help, could you not direct them toward that instead of letting them keep floundering here? Feeling helpless, Helena -- -- -- Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 22, 2011 Report Share Posted February 22, 2011 To: ACT_for_the_Public <act_for_the_public >Sent: Mon, February 21, 2011 4:36:58 PMSubject: RE: To the moderators Yes. I'm liking it. I'm the kind that has to understand what's under the hood. I'm struggling with the jargon a bit. Check this out as well. http://www.thehappinesstrap.com/upimages/the_house_of_ACT.pdf Bill To: ACT_for_the_Public From: carlos.carlos333@...Date: Mon, 21 Feb 2011 15:10:45 -0800Subject: RE: To the moderators Hey Bill and I'm also reading a book about RFT called - fittingly enough - Learning RFT by Dr. Torneke. Is it the same or different book?SignatureIf you live in New York City and are interested in joining or forming an ACT Study Group, please contact me. C. Hello, There have been many posts here recently that are quite serious and possibly deadly -- the poster talks about a death wish. You moderators are in charge of keeping things like that away from the list members, since we cannot possibly help in such crisis situations. This is not a therapy group. although we can give support in a lot of situations. But we cannot help those who are in such serious trouble. Why allow that to be put on us? Please, cannot you not direct such needy people to the right therapy and not have them rely on us for help? We are not professionals. And when a poster obviously needs professional help, could you not direct them toward that instead of letting them keep floundering here? Feeling helpless, Helena -- -- -- Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 22, 2011 Report Share Posted February 22, 2011 We have been observing the dialogue about calling on the moderators to respond to specific posts which may be troubling for some folks. We really appreciate how the list resolved the issue and moved in an ACT consistent direction. Thanks for everyone's willingness to listen and to take risks here. & To: ACT_for_the_Public Sent: Tue, February 22, 2011 11:58:45 AMSubject: Re: To the moderators To: ACT_for_the_Public <act_for_the_public >Sent: Mon, February 21, 2011 4:36:58 PMSubject: RE: To the moderators Yes. I'm liking it. I'm the kind that has to understand what's under the hood. I'm struggling with the jargon a bit. Check this out as well. http://www.thehappinesstrap.com/upimages/the_house_of_ACT.pdf Bill To: ACT_for_the_Public From: carlos.carlos333@...Date: Mon, 21 Feb 2011 15:10:45 -0800Subject: RE: To the moderators Hey Bill and I'm also reading a book about RFT called - fittingly enough - Learning RFT by Dr. Torneke. Is it the same or different book?SignatureIf you live in New York City and are interested in joining or forming an ACT Study Group, please contact me. C. Hello, There have been many posts here recently that are quite serious and possibly deadly -- the poster talks about a death wish. You moderators are in charge of keeping things like that away from the list members, since we cannot possibly help in such crisis situations. This is not a therapy group. although we can give support in a lot of situations. But we cannot help those who are in such serious trouble. Why allow that to be put on us? Please, cannot you not direct such needy people to the right therapy and not have them rely on us for help? We are not professionals. And when a poster obviously needs professional help, could you not direct them toward that instead of letting them keep floundering here? Feeling helpless, Helena -- -- -- Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 22, 2011 Report Share Posted February 22, 2011 Thank you! I think I made a mistake in assuming that was one of the moderators. Her response was so astute and moderator-like, I just made that assumption. And I thought we had a as a moderator, but I was thinking of . No harm done, right? Still, I'm blushing a bit. Helena RE: To the moderators Hey Bill and I'm also reading a book about RFT called - fittingly enough - Learning RFT by Dr. Torneke. Is it the same or different book?SignatureIf you live in New York City and are interested in joining or forming an ACT Study Group, please contact me. C. Hello, There have been many posts here recently that are quite serious and possibly deadly -- the poster talks about a death wish. You moderators are in charge of keeping things like that away from the list members, since we cannot possibly help in such crisis situations. This is not a therapy group. although we can give support in a lot of situations. But we cannot help those who are in such serious trouble. Why allow that to be put on us? Please, cannot you not direct such needy people to the right therapy and not have them rely on us for help? We are not professionals. And when a poster obviously needs professional help, could you not direct them toward that instead of letting them keep floundering here? Feeling helpless, Helena -- -- -- Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 22, 2011 Report Share Posted February 22, 2011 Yeah same here. For me, it isn't so much the definition of the terms that are difficult, but the huge number of them and the demand to remember them is what's so difficult.So far I've finished chapter 4 "Derived Relational Responding as the Fundamental Element of Human Language." Finally, I understand the fundamental principles of RFT. Can't wait to get to the next chapter!Btw, thanks for the link.SignatureIf you live in New York City and are interested in joining or forming an ACT Study Group, please contact me. C. Hello, There have been many posts here recently that are quite serious and possibly deadly -- the poster talks about a death wish. You moderators are in charge of keeping things like that away from the list members, since we cannot possibly help in such crisis situations. This is not a therapy group. although we can give support in a lot of situations. But we cannot help those who are in such serious trouble. Why allow that to be put on us? Please, cannot you not direct such needy people to the right therapy and not have them rely on us for help? We are not professionals. And when a poster obviously needs professional help, could you not direct them toward that instead of letting them keep floundering here? Feeling helpless, Helena -- -- -- Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 22, 2011 Report Share Posted February 22, 2011 I did too! That is, I thought was one of the moderators! She sounded so knowledgeable in ACT.SignatureIf you live in New York City and are interested in joining or forming an ACT Study Group, please contact me. C. Hello, There have been many posts here recently that are quite serious and possibly deadly -- the poster talks about a death wish. You moderators are in charge of keeping things like that away from the list members, since we cannot possibly help in such crisis situations. This is not a therapy group. although we can give support in a lot of situations. But we cannot help those who are in such serious trouble. Why allow that to be put on us? Please, cannot you not direct such needy people to the right therapy and not have them rely on us for help? We are not professionals. And when a poster obviously needs professional help, could you not direct them toward that instead of letting them keep floundering here? Feeling helpless, Helena -- -- -- Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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