Guest guest Posted February 17, 2011 Report Share Posted February 17, 2011 Hi Zoe and all, feeling negative about it in some respects as the following from the DoH makes me wonder how long it will be before they intefere and change the section 12(1) act and what next, a u-turn on who can supply us? There seems to be a hint at production and making of medicines. See below the bit PERMIT AND REGULATE. If they are saying on one hand that medicines can still be made by individual herbalists a right that we want protected, how are THEY going to quality control what we make??? Alarm bells are ringing big time. Lets face it, DoH and others probably want a state controlled operation whereby you can only get your herbs from one of 2 suppliers that have GMP and likely we will be stopped from making our own. Just posted the merest bit of DoH, but encourage all of you to look more deeply. Also, what is going to be the cost to the herbalist, it will put people out of business because its going to costs thousands like the chiropractors and osteopaths...anyone car to comment???? " If practitioner regulation is in place for the purposes of creating an Article 5(1) scheme this also opens the way to reform Section 12 (1) of the Medicines Act 1968. Under Section 12 (1), practitioners may prepare unlicensed herbal medicines on their own premises for use following consultation with individual patients. It is intended to move to the position that only registered practitioners would be able to operate under Section 12 (1) after regulation of practitioners is in place " . be underpinned by a strengthened system for regulating medicinal products. From the official government statement..... This approach will give practitioners and consumers continuing access to herbal medicines. It will do this by allowing us to use a derogation in the European legislation to set up a UK scheme to permit and regulate the supply, via practitioners, of unlicensed manufactured herbal medicines to meet individual patient needs. Best wishes Jacqui > > Well - it's done now. > My instincts lean towards feeling negative but on the plus side I won't have to clean up the mess made by insane herbal bowel, liver cleanse, detox products prescribed by " holistic blah blahs " or undo the orthorexia and malnutrition caused by stoopid diets for " candida " . Or hilda style parasite cleanse capsules..... etc etc > > We must now stand REALLY STRONG and united to protect our rights as Medical Professionals and EXPERTS. The people we will be dealing with are anything but expert and know nothing about what we do. " What herb's good for Blah blah? " > > For me one of the most important things, especially given the global climate (of everything) is to maintain our rights to harvest, grow and make our own medicines. > > I went to an interesting talk by Dr Rosie s the other night. Apart from being a massive PR machine for her Health Creation program(Clever Rosie, Transition networks are a good PR target) it had some interesting stats on the growth of medical expenditure from the beginning of the NHS to 2020 by which time the expenditure on drugs will exceed our GNP. > > > > Zoe > > > > Medical Herbalist > MNIMH CPP Dip. Phyt. > Buteyko Breathing Practitoner > > " Wild Drugs " 'A Foragers Guide to Healing Plants' Gaia 2010 > > Bath > 01761 439920 > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 17, 2011 Report Share Posted February 17, 2011 Dear all, a well respected member of NIMH pointed this out, and i think it is important, particularly with regard to the section 12(1) medicines act ......... " As is well known and has been discussed before, it would undoubtedly constitute discrimination on religious grounds (which is governed by the Equality and Human Rights Commission), if the activities of anyone practising herbal medicine as part of their religion were to be curtailed. If you think of the number of practitioners (in ethnic communities particularly) to whom this would apply, this could end up being the reason why SR never came into effect. The danger then - as I tried to point out within NIMH a number of years ago, but which fell on deaf ears - is that if legislation is brought in to limit Section 12(1) to SR practitioners only (which is the stated intention of the DoH), and then there is no SR, then the whole of herbal practice disappears. No-one, whether pro-SR or not, would be able to practise. Apart of course, from those who continued to have the right to do so as part of their religious practice. This is indeed a conundrum, and perfectly illustrates " if it ain't broke, don't fix it " . This is how important it is to maintain Section 12(1) in its current state. " end quote. comments please everyone??? Regards Jacqui > > > > Well - it's done now. > > My instincts lean towards feeling negative but on the plus side I won't have to clean up the mess made by insane herbal bowel, liver cleanse, detox products prescribed by " holistic blah blahs " or undo the orthorexia and malnutrition caused by stoopid diets for " candida " . Or hilda style parasite cleanse capsules..... etc etc > > > > We must now stand REALLY STRONG and united to protect our rights as Medical Professionals and EXPERTS. The people we will be dealing with are anything but expert and know nothing about what we do. " What herb's good for Blah blah? " > > > > For me one of the most important things, especially given the global climate (of everything) is to maintain our rights to harvest, grow and make our own medicines. > > > > I went to an interesting talk by Dr Rosie s the other night. Apart from being a massive PR machine for her Health Creation program(Clever Rosie, Transition networks are a good PR target) it had some interesting stats on the growth of medical expenditure from the beginning of the NHS to 2020 by which time the expenditure on drugs will exceed our GNP. > > > > > > > > Zoe > > > > > > > > Medical Herbalist > > MNIMH CPP Dip. Phyt. > > Buteyko Breathing Practitoner > > > > " Wild Drugs " 'A Foragers Guide to Healing Plants' Gaia 2010 > > > > Bath > > 01761 439920 > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 17, 2011 Report Share Posted February 17, 2011 In reply to Jacqui, it is not going to cost thousands, that is why the profession opted for regulation via an existing body, i.e. the HPC rather than setting up a new and separate body as the osteopaths and chiropractors did (one each!). I believe the cost was well under £100 per annum although I can't find it on their website now. a Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 17, 2011 Report Share Posted February 17, 2011 Well that would be reasonable. Do you think we will have one body for herbalists, at present we have several NIMH, AMH IRCHH,CPP URHP sorry if I missed anyone. Fees to belong to these PA's vary enormously. Wonder what will happen?? best wishes Jacqui > > In reply to Jacqui, it is not going to cost thousands, that is why the > profession opted for regulation via an existing body, i.e. the HPC > rather than setting up a new and separate body as the osteopaths and > chiropractors did (one each!). I believe the cost was well under £100 > per annum although I can't find it on their website now. > a > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 27, 2011 Report Share Posted February 27, 2011 www.homeopathyheals.me.uk/site/latest-news/573-state-regulation-for-practitioner\ s-of-herbal-medicine Cross-posted from Homeopathy Heals Me [campaigning website] Therri From: jones.lynda@... Sent: Friday, February 18, 2011 10:37 PM To: ukherbal-list Subject: Re: Re: Regulation Shame indeed!!! Sent from my iPhone Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 3, 2011 Report Share Posted March 3, 2011 Hi Henriette, I completely agree. Herbalists should not agree to any regulation unless they have a cast iron guarantee that they will be able to not only practise as before but also to include herbs which are currently restricted. Personally, I cannot see this happening for the reasons you state about medical practice and pharmaceutical company influence. There is a lot of speculation going on at the moment because we do not know what form/shape regulation will take. We are all right to be concerned if not suspicious though given current attitudes within medicine and the regulatory authorities. The risk for herbalists is that in the fervour which greeted the announcement about regulation we forget what we want and what people (patients) need. Regards Gascoigne > > Therri Lahood wrote: > > > Seems like it's business as usual around here, does no one else find the > > silence around SR deafening? > > I'm not (yet) affected here in Finland, and I don't know that I will > ever be. > That being said: > > > > www.homeopathyheals.me.uk/site/latest-news/573-state-regulation-for-practitioner\ s-of-herbal-medicine > > comes across as a paranoiac. She also calls herself " Dr " with no > credentials whatsoever. > Also, as far as I know, McI was pushing for UK regulation of > herbalists LONG before anybody was talking about EU regulation of > herbs. The > two are not related, and continuing to say they are is muddled thinking. > > That article is crap. > > My own take on the imminent regulation of UK herbalists: > > * doctors still believe that herbs are balderdash > * doctors still think that herbs must be dangerous if they work > (digitalis is > pulled out of the cupboard regularly as a demonstration of this) > * doctors are _heavily_ influenced by pharmaceutical companies. Not > perhaps by > direct bribery (although that, too, happens), but mostly by trusting > mainstream medical journals. The " unbiased " " scientific " research there is > bought and sold by the pint by pharmacogiants. > * herbs are cheap, can't be patented, and are as good or better for > quite a > lot of chronic diseases than mainstream medicines. Oops, there goes the > profit. > * who is influencing your HMC, which, if I understood things right, is > about > to regulate you? Doctors and pharmaceutical companies. > > And you are going to let that lot tell you what you can and cannot > practice? > Uh. Oh. > > Next, where are your _guarantees_ that you will have access to otherwise > restricted herbs, once you're regulated? That should be clearly > spelled out > in laws that can't be changed at the drop of a hat. > You should also do your very best to protect your 1968 herbalist laws. > > I do hope SR won't come back to bite you lot in the arse, very hard. > > H. > > -- > Henriette Kress, AHG Helsinki, Finland > Henriette's herbal homepage: http://www.henriettesherbal.com > Uusi kirja: http://www.henriettesherbal.com/fi/kayt-laak.html > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 3, 2011 Report Share Posted March 3, 2011 SR is biting us hard in the arse now! Tim. From: Henriette Kress Sent: Thursday, March 03, 2011 7:42 AM To: ukherbal-list Subject: Re: Re: Regulation Therri Lahood wrote: > Seems like it's business as usual around here, does no one else find the > silence around SR deafening? I'm not (yet) affected here in Finland, and I don't know that I will ever be. That being said: > www.homeopathyheals.me.uk/site/latest-news/573-state-regulation-for-practitioner\ s-of-herbal-medicine comes across as a paranoiac. She also calls herself " Dr " with no credentials whatsoever. Also, as far as I know, McI was pushing for UK regulation of herbalists LONG before anybody was talking about EU regulation of herbs. The two are not related, and continuing to say they are is muddled thinking. That article is crap. My own take on the imminent regulation of UK herbalists: * doctors still believe that herbs are balderdash * doctors still think that herbs must be dangerous if they work (digitalis is pulled out of the cupboard regularly as a demonstration of this) * doctors are _heavily_ influenced by pharmaceutical companies. Not perhaps by direct bribery (although that, too, happens), but mostly by trusting mainstream medical journals. The " unbiased " " scientific " research there is bought and sold by the pint by pharmacogiants. * herbs are cheap, can't be patented, and are as good or better for quite a lot of chronic diseases than mainstream medicines. Oops, there goes the profit. * who is influencing your HMC, which, if I understood things right, is about to regulate you? Doctors and pharmaceutical companies. And you are going to let that lot tell you what you can and cannot practice? Uh. Oh. Next, where are your _guarantees_ that you will have access to otherwise restricted herbs, once you're regulated? That should be clearly spelled out in laws that can't be changed at the drop of a hat. You should also do your very best to protect your 1968 herbalist laws. I do hope SR won't come back to bite you lot in the arse, very hard. H. -- Henriette Kress, AHG Helsinki, Finland Henriette's herbal homepage: http://www.henriettesherbal.com Uusi kirja: http://www.henriettesherbal.com/fi/kayt-laak.html Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 3, 2011 Report Share Posted March 3, 2011 SR is biting us hard in the arse now! Tim. Not just us, If SR goes through we will lose the common right of every person " having knowledge and experience of the Nature or Herbs, Roots, and Waters, or of the operation of the same...to practice, use and minister...according to their Cunning, Experience and Knowledge " [Henry VIII - see below] Our common right will be exchanged for a privilege which can only be enjoyed by persons who meet a certain criteria, to the exclusion of all others. Is it right that regulated herbalists will have dominion over herbs and their healing properties? What about naturopaths, lay herbalists and herbalists that choose not to be regulated, independent midwifes, doula's, practitioners of other traditional medicines that use herbs, nutritionists etc. How can it be O.K. that patients are suddenly no longer entitled to the healing that herbs can offer them from their chosen health care providers? Is this progress? If some herbalists want to be regulated then I support their right and am happy with that as long as it's voluntary and does not discriminate against those that do not want to practice within that model - this is a broad church and no one group has the moral right to control access to the use of herbs and their healing properties. I have quoted from Henry VIII's Charter, it is our history, our heritage and our birthright, are we really ready to let it go in exchange for the restrictive practices and controls that SR offers. In consideration whereof, and For the ease, Comfort, Succour, Help, Relief, and Health of the King’s poor Subjects. Inhabitants of this Realm, now pained or diseased: Be It Ordained, Established and Enacted by Authority of the present Parliament, That at all Time From henceforth, it shall be lawful to every Person being the King's subject having knowledge and Experience of the Nature of Herbs, Roots, and Waters, or of the Operation of the same, by Speculation or Practice, within any part of the Realm of England, or within any other of the King's dominions, to practise, use, and minister in and to any outward Sore, Uncome Wound, Apostemations, outward Swellings or Disease, any Herb or Herbs, Ointments, Baths, Pultess, and Emplaisters, according to their Cunning, Experience, and Knowledge in any of the diseases, Sores, and Maladies beforesaid, and all others like to the same, or drinks For the Stone, Strangury or Agues, without suit, vexation, trouble, penalty, or loss of their goods; the Forsaid Statute in the Forsaid Third Year of the King's most gracious Reign, or any other Act, Ordinance or Statutes to the contrary heretofore made in anywise, notwithstanding. Signed by; Henry VIII From: Tim Lane Sent: Thursday, March 03, 2011 9:51 AM To: ukherbal-list Subject: Re: Re: Regulation SR is biting us hard in the arse now! Tim. From: Henriette Kress Sent: Thursday, March 03, 2011 7:42 AM To: ukherbal-list Subject: Re: Re: Regulation Therri Lahood wrote: > Seems like it's business as usual around here, does no one else find the > silence around SR deafening? I'm not (yet) affected here in Finland, and I don't know that I will ever be. That being said: > www.homeopathyheals.me.uk/site/latest-news/573-state-regulation-for-practitioner\ s-of-herbal-medicine comes across as a paranoiac. She also calls herself " Dr " with no credentials whatsoever. Also, as far as I know, McI was pushing for UK regulation of herbalists LONG before anybody was talking about EU regulation of herbs. The two are not related, and continuing to say they are is muddled thinking. That article is crap. My own take on the imminent regulation of UK herbalists: * doctors still believe that herbs are balderdash * doctors still think that herbs must be dangerous if they work (digitalis is pulled out of the cupboard regularly as a demonstration of this) * doctors are _heavily_ influenced by pharmaceutical companies. Not perhaps by direct bribery (although that, too, happens), but mostly by trusting mainstream medical journals. The " unbiased " " scientific " research there is bought and sold by the pint by pharmacogiants. * herbs are cheap, can't be patented, and are as good or better for quite a lot of chronic diseases than mainstream medicines. Oops, there goes the profit. * who is influencing your HMC, which, if I understood things right, is about to regulate you? Doctors and pharmaceutical companies. And you are going to let that lot tell you what you can and cannot practice? Uh. Oh. Next, where are your _guarantees_ that you will have access to otherwise restricted herbs, once you're regulated? That should be clearly spelled out in laws that can't be changed at the drop of a hat. You should also do your very best to protect your 1968 herbalist laws. I do hope SR won't come back to bite you lot in the arse, very hard. H. -- Henriette Kress, AHG Helsinki, Finland Henriette's herbal homepage: http://www.henriettesherbal.com Uusi kirja: http://www.henriettesherbal.com/fi/kayt-laak.html Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 4, 2011 Report Share Posted March 4, 2011 > > Nothing is more important than to determine the course that is most > appropriate for your own profession, by people who actually know your > profession! > > > This is very true Craig. Thankyou Henriette, your posts are very refreshing, i also would love to hear some more opinions from those in favour or SR. Those looking forward to it. This is because i am sitting on the fence. I met with a chinese herbalist yesterday, who says he and his colleagues are looking forward to SR and believe it will he hopes enable them to re-instate using some herbs which presently are banned. Quite an opposite view to the ones expressed on this site. I am on the independant forum which has 100 members, and the basis of this forum is to promote our right to practice without SR. My concern about being independant of the EHPA umbrella, is that, whilst the EHPA, negotiate over the basis of SR, and as Craig say 'Nothing is more important than to determine the course that is most > appropriate for your own profession, by people who actually know your profession! " the independant herbalists remain outside of the negotiations, and their views are not taken on board. Such as defending our right to make our own tinctures. If there are 100 members on the independant forum , that is roughly the number against SR and not sitting on the fence. Then the number for SR, or willing to go along with it must be the vast majority of herbalists, if you include the chinese herbalists. If you read the government consultation on SR, the reporting of those herbalists against SR comes accross as a tiny number, very similar in fact to the oppositions from doctors. Unless those herbalists opposed to SR actually organise a body to represent themselves , they will be seen as a few dissenting individuals, and no heed will be taken of their concerns. i fully support every individuals right to use herbal medicine for themselves their friends and family , and i promote this right by running herb walks, and teaching how to make remedies to the public; at the same time i do resent nutritional therapists advertising themselves as herbalists and prescribing very strong doses of herbs that are often innapropriately prescribed and showing an obvious lack of herbal understanding. So at the end of this i'm still on the fence. So many of the herbalists on the independant forum have strong views i really respect, who isn't cynical of government strategy?, especially the idea of working under the MRHA, its easy to become paranoid over this, but why worry is that staying outside of the regulatory process is not going to safeguard our rights as much as being part of it. with love Haskel > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 4, 2011 Report Share Posted March 4, 2011 Some herbalists who use Chinese medicine are in favour. Others, myself included, are not, certainly in its current form. There are many stated reasons in favour of regulation including reinstatement of restricted herbs. I have yet to see definite evidence or statements that this will happen. In any case, as we have said before, if it is up to the MHRA to be the arbiter - heaven help us all. Regards Gascoigne > > > > > > > > Nothing is more important than to determine the course that is most > > appropriate for your own profession, by people who actually know your > > profession! > > > > > > This is very true Craig. > Thankyou Henriette, your posts are very refreshing, i also would love > to hear some more opinions from those in favour or SR. Those looking > forward to it. This is because i am sitting on the fence. I met with a > chinese herbalist yesterday, who says he and his colleagues are > looking forward to SR and believe it will he hopes enable them to > re-instate using some herbs which presently are banned. Quite an > opposite view to the ones expressed on this site. > I am on the independant forum which has 100 members, and the basis of > this forum is to promote our right to practice without SR. > My concern about being independant of the EHPA umbrella, is that, > whilst the EHPA, negotiate over the basis of SR, and as Craig say > > 'Nothing is more important than to determine the course that is most > > appropriate for your own profession, by people who actually know > your profession! " > > the independant herbalists remain outside of the negotiations, and > their views are not taken on board. Such as defending our right to > make our own tinctures. > If there are 100 members on the independant forum , that is roughly > the number against SR and not sitting on the fence. Then the number > for SR, or willing to go along with it must be the vast majority of > herbalists, if you include the chinese herbalists. > > If you read the government consultation on SR, the reporting of those > herbalists against SR comes accross as a tiny number, very similar in > fact to the oppositions from doctors. > > Unless those herbalists opposed to SR actually organise a body to > represent themselves , they will be seen as a few dissenting > individuals, and no heed will be taken of their concerns. > > i fully support every individuals right to use herbal medicine > for themselves their friends and family , and i promote this right by > running herb walks, and teaching how to make remedies to the public; > at the same time i do resent nutritional therapists advertising > themselves as herbalists and prescribing very strong doses of herbs > that are often innapropriately prescribed and showing an obvious lack > of herbal understanding. > > So at the end of this i'm still on the fence. > So many of the herbalists on the independant forum have strong views i > really respect, who isn't cynical of government strategy?, especially > the idea of working under the MRHA, its easy to become paranoid over > this, but why worry is that staying outside of the regulatory process > is not going to safeguard our rights as much as being part of it. > with love Haskel > > > > > > > > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 4, 2011 Report Share Posted March 4, 2011 Hi Lorraine, Sally, Tim and all Glad we all agree on that making meds point. I always thought a register was a good idea in theory, its the red tape we all have to watch!! I do not see yet enough evidence to suggest we will be treated fairly,or unfairly... however as its not cut and dried,we are all still in limbo until the next consultation. In the meantime we can just keep an eye on the situation. I do agree with Haskel, that their should be a more formal body of herbalists against SR in its current proposal. I think so many herbalists sat and indeed sit on the fence to see which way the wind is blowing. I'm not sating I will never go on a register. I have a tincture making company in its infancy and a practice to continue, but will be guided a little more when I see the small print!! The other point to raise is that the ANH are fighting THMPD at the high courts. Also if it is enacted on 1st april, we will not be regulated for some time after that so how does that work for people???? best wishes Jacqui > > >>> > > >>>> Seems like it's business as usual around here, does no one else > > >>>> find the > > >>>> silence around SR deafening? > > >>> > > >>> I'm not (yet) affected here in Finland, and I don't know that I will > > >>> ever be. > > >>> That being said: > > >>> > > >>>> > > >>> www.homeopathyheals.me.uk/site/latest-news/573-state-regulation-for-practitioner\ s-of-herbal-medicine > > >>> > > >>> comes across as a paranoiac. She also calls herself " Dr " > > >>> with no > > >>> credentials whatsoever. > > >>> Also, as far as I know, McI was pushing for UK regulation of > > >>> herbalists LONG before anybody was talking about EU regulation of > > >>> herbs. The > > >>> two are not related, and continuing to say they are is muddled > > >>> thinking. > > >>> > > >>> That article is crap. > > >>> > > >>> My own take on the imminent regulation of UK herbalists: > > >>> > > >>> * doctors still believe that herbs are balderdash > > >>> * doctors still think that herbs must be dangerous if they work > > >>> (digitalis is > > >>> pulled out of the cupboard regularly as a demonstration of this) > > >>> * doctors are _heavily_ influenced by pharmaceutical companies. Not > > >>> perhaps by > > >>> direct bribery (although that, too, happens), but mostly by trusting > > >>> mainstream medical journals. The " unbiased " " scientific " research > > >>> there is > > >>> bought and sold by the pint by pharmacogiants. > > >>> * herbs are cheap, can't be patented, and are as good or better for > > >>> quite a > > >>> lot of chronic diseases than mainstream medicines. Oops, there > > >>> goes the > > >>> profit. > > >>> * who is influencing your HMC, which, if I understood things > > >>> right, is > > >>> about > > >>> to regulate you? Doctors and pharmaceutical companies. > > >>> > > >>> And you are going to let that lot tell you what you can and cannot > > >>> practice? > > >>> Uh. Oh. > > >>> > > >>> Next, where are your _guarantees_ that you will have access to > > >>> otherwise > > >>> restricted herbs, once you're regulated? That should be clearly > > >>> spelled out > > >>> in laws that can't be changed at the drop of a hat. > > >>> You should also do your very best to protect your 1968 herbalist > > >>> laws. > > >>> > > >>> I do hope SR won't come back to bite you lot in the arse, very hard. > > >>> > > >>> H. > > >>> > > >>> -- > > >>> Henriette Kress, AHG Helsinki, Finland > > >>> Henriette's herbal homepage: http://www.henriettesherbal.com > > >>> Uusi kirja: http://www.henriettesherbal.com/fi/kayt-laak.html > > >>> > > >>> > > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 4, 2011 Report Share Posted March 4, 2011 Ah but who will be doing the agreeing for us and will we be told the whole story about it before it is agreed too?? Jacqui > > > > > Seems like it's business as usual around here, does no one else find the > > > silence around SR deafening? > > > > I'm not (yet) affected here in Finland, and I don't know that I will > > ever be. > > That being said: > > > > > > > www.homeopathyheals.me.uk/site/latest-news/573-state-regulation-for-practitioner\ s-of-herbal-medicine > > > > comes across as a paranoiac. She also calls herself " Dr " with no > > credentials whatsoever. > > Also, as far as I know, McI was pushing for UK regulation of > > herbalists LONG before anybody was talking about EU regulation of > > herbs. The > > two are not related, and continuing to say they are is muddled thinking. > > > > That article is crap. > > > > My own take on the imminent regulation of UK herbalists: > > > > * doctors still believe that herbs are balderdash > > * doctors still think that herbs must be dangerous if they work > > (digitalis is > > pulled out of the cupboard regularly as a demonstration of this) > > * doctors are _heavily_ influenced by pharmaceutical companies. Not > > perhaps by > > direct bribery (although that, too, happens), but mostly by trusting > > mainstream medical journals. The " unbiased " " scientific " research there is > > bought and sold by the pint by pharmacogiants. > > * herbs are cheap, can't be patented, and are as good or better for > > quite a > > lot of chronic diseases than mainstream medicines. Oops, there goes the > > profit. > > * who is influencing your HMC, which, if I understood things right, is > > about > > to regulate you? Doctors and pharmaceutical companies. > > > > And you are going to let that lot tell you what you can and cannot > > practice? > > Uh. Oh. > > > > Next, where are your _guarantees_ that you will have access to otherwise > > restricted herbs, once you're regulated? That should be clearly > > spelled out > > in laws that can't be changed at the drop of a hat. > > You should also do your very best to protect your 1968 herbalist laws. > > > > I do hope SR won't come back to bite you lot in the arse, very hard. > > > > H. > > > > -- > > Henriette Kress, AHG Helsinki, Finland > > Henriette's herbal homepage: http://www.henriettesherbal.com > > Uusi kirja: http://www.henriettesherbal.com/fi/kayt-laak.html > > > > > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 4, 2011 Report Share Posted March 4, 2011 Hi H.. I am against it in its current form and will be against it until i see the small print, and only then when alarm bells don't go off and my small tincture making farm business is safe (same size as granary herbs) and I can continue dispensing my creams and syrups made from base ingredients in my sterile kitchen and my dried herb tinctures that i make with herbs from one of our major suppliers that I macerate in alcohol with my license from HMRC customs and excise, if all of that continues to be allowed and does not cost me my livelihood or my herb farm to be shut down, only then will I consider being for it. best wishes Jacqui > > Is everybody here either outright against SR or sufficiently on the fence to > not have anything to say on the matter? > > Are there no herbalists on this list who are for SR? Speak up, speak up. > > I wish for a lively debate. I wish for things to get aired NOW, so that the > end result, whatever it turns out to be in the end, will be as good as it can > possibly be. > > Thanks, > Henriette > > -- > Henriette Kress, AHG Helsinki, Finland > Henriette's herbal homepage: http://www.henriettesherbal.com > Uusi kirja: http://www.henriettesherbal.com/fi/kayt-laak.html > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 4, 2011 Report Share Posted March 4, 2011 Do you not think that this would be playing into the hands of the " Quackbuster " lobby? Show us as a divided and " untrustworthy " light to the public? Their ace card is to portray us as uninterested in the safety of the patients - Shock politics tend to disengage rational thought, and they are very quick to resort to shroud waving, Highlighting internal divisions has rarely gone well for us -just look at the history around Drs Coffin and Skelton. Sometimes I am afraid we are more interested in our internecine squabbling than the real matters in hand. Sally Owen > > I do agree with Haskel, that their should be a more formal body of > herbalists against SR in its current proposal. I think so many > herbalists sat and indeed sit on the fence to see which way the wind > is blowing. I'm not sating I will never go on a register. I have a > tincture making company in its infancy and a practice to continue, > but will be guided a little more when I see the small print!! > > The other point to raise is that the ANH are fighting THMPD at the > high courts. Also if it is enacted on 1st april, we will not be > regulated for some time after that so how does that work for > people???? > > best wishes > > Jacqui > > >>>>>> >>>>>>> Seems like it's business as usual around here, does no one else >>>>>>> find the >>>>>>> silence around SR deafening? >>>>>> >>>>>> I'm not (yet) affected here in Finland, and I don't know that I >>>>>> will >>>>>> ever be. >>>>>> That being said: >>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>> www.homeopathyheals.me.uk/site/latest-news/573-state-regulation-for-practitioner\ s-of-herbal-medicine >>>>>> >>>>>> comes across as a paranoiac. She also calls herself " Dr " >>>>>> with no >>>>>> credentials whatsoever. >>>>>> Also, as far as I know, McI was pushing for UK >>>>>> regulation of >>>>>> herbalists LONG before anybody was talking about EU regulation of >>>>>> herbs. The >>>>>> two are not related, and continuing to say they are is muddled >>>>>> thinking. >>>>>> >>>>>> That article is crap. >>>>>> >>>>>> My own take on the imminent regulation of UK herbalists: >>>>>> >>>>>> * doctors still believe that herbs are balderdash >>>>>> * doctors still think that herbs must be dangerous if they work >>>>>> (digitalis is >>>>>> pulled out of the cupboard regularly as a demonstration of this) >>>>>> * doctors are _heavily_ influenced by pharmaceutical companies. >>>>>> Not >>>>>> perhaps by >>>>>> direct bribery (although that, too, happens), but mostly by >>>>>> trusting >>>>>> mainstream medical journals. The " unbiased " " scientific " research >>>>>> there is >>>>>> bought and sold by the pint by pharmacogiants. >>>>>> * herbs are cheap, can't be patented, and are as good or better >>>>>> for >>>>>> quite a >>>>>> lot of chronic diseases than mainstream medicines. Oops, there >>>>>> goes the >>>>>> profit. >>>>>> * who is influencing your HMC, which, if I understood things >>>>>> right, is >>>>>> about >>>>>> to regulate you? Doctors and pharmaceutical companies. >>>>>> >>>>>> And you are going to let that lot tell you what you can and >>>>>> cannot >>>>>> practice? >>>>>> Uh. Oh. >>>>>> >>>>>> Next, where are your _guarantees_ that you will have access to >>>>>> otherwise >>>>>> restricted herbs, once you're regulated? That should be clearly >>>>>> spelled out >>>>>> in laws that can't be changed at the drop of a hat. >>>>>> You should also do your very best to protect your 1968 herbalist >>>>>> laws. >>>>>> >>>>>> I do hope SR won't come back to bite you lot in the arse, very >>>>>> hard. >>>>>> >>>>>> H. >>>>>> >>>>>> -- >>>>>> Henriette Kress, AHG Helsinki, Finland >>>>>> Henriette's herbal homepage: http://www.henriettesherbal.com >>>>>> Uusi kirja: http://www.henriettesherbal.com/fi/kayt-laak.html >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 4, 2011 Report Share Posted March 4, 2011 Hi Sally... I too heard from Woodfield that I would be OK for small sale tincture making, we have about 2 acres in Essex and will be ready to sell tinctures to all our fellow herbies this year. Yes I am happy to put in place some quality control as this is important but not hundreds of thousands of pounds, as i believe Proline & Rutland have done, but they make products for 3rd parties and supply retail outlets so one can see that something more is required there. I recall that some of the smaller tincture makers had this out with the MHRA, what licenses do we need, what can we comply with blah blah and it would appear that for small outfits like ours there was no answer, they did not know! It is interesting what , Tim et al were saying, these slippery MHRA buggers can keep changing the rules, that's what we have to watch out for and the meddling by the government on Section 12(1) medicines act. I have a bad feeling about that, and it must be left untouched. When all is said and done i don't understand why we just all cannot be on a simple register that you pay a small fee for and that keeps the public reassured. These 2 issues THMPD and SR have been muddled up together in order to force an issue that me my all come to regret, i a reminded of that old adage 'Marry in haste, repent in leisure' LOL !!!! basically lets not be too hasty until we ALL see the small print. Best wishes Jacqui > >>> > >>>> Seems like it's business as usual around here, does no one else > >>>> find the > >>>> silence around SR deafening? > >>> > >>> I'm not (yet) affected here in Finland, and I don't know that I will > >>> ever be. > >>> That being said: > >>> > >>>> > >>> www.homeopathyheals.me.uk/site/latest-news/573-state-regulation-for-practitioner\ s-of-herbal-medicine > >>> > >>> comes across as a paranoiac. She also calls herself " Dr " > >>> with no > >>> credentials whatsoever. > >>> Also, as far as I know, McI was pushing for UK regulation of > >>> herbalists LONG before anybody was talking about EU regulation of > >>> herbs. The > >>> two are not related, and continuing to say they are is muddled > >>> thinking. > >>> > >>> That article is crap. > >>> > >>> My own take on the imminent regulation of UK herbalists: > >>> > >>> * doctors still believe that herbs are balderdash > >>> * doctors still think that herbs must be dangerous if they work > >>> (digitalis is > >>> pulled out of the cupboard regularly as a demonstration of this) > >>> * doctors are _heavily_ influenced by pharmaceutical companies. Not > >>> perhaps by > >>> direct bribery (although that, too, happens), but mostly by trusting > >>> mainstream medical journals. The " unbiased " " scientific " research > >>> there is > >>> bought and sold by the pint by pharmacogiants. > >>> * herbs are cheap, can't be patented, and are as good or better for > >>> quite a > >>> lot of chronic diseases than mainstream medicines. Oops, there > >>> goes the > >>> profit. > >>> * who is influencing your HMC, which, if I understood things > >>> right, is > >>> about > >>> to regulate you? Doctors and pharmaceutical companies. > >>> > >>> And you are going to let that lot tell you what you can and cannot > >>> practice? > >>> Uh. Oh. > >>> > >>> Next, where are your _guarantees_ that you will have access to > >>> otherwise > >>> restricted herbs, once you're regulated? That should be clearly > >>> spelled out > >>> in laws that can't be changed at the drop of a hat. > >>> You should also do your very best to protect your 1968 herbalist > >>> laws. > >>> > >>> I do hope SR won't come back to bite you lot in the arse, very hard. > >>> > >>> H. > >>> > >>> -- > >>> Henriette Kress, AHG Helsinki, Finland > >>> Henriette's herbal homepage: http://www.henriettesherbal.com > >>> Uusi kirja: http://www.henriettesherbal.com/fi/kayt-laak.html > >>> > >>> > >> > >> > >> > >> Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 4, 2011 Report Share Posted March 4, 2011 Hi Jacqui, I can understand from a TCM point of view why THMPD or something like it was needed. There are regular warnings issued about this and that tablets with pictures containing unmentionable horrors. With regulation I will be able to get my GMP made tablets in for my business and patients. In the interim most of us are trying to buy a years worth of tablets. You can continue to sell unexpired stocks. Were you not satisfied with Portillo report? It seemed to indicate that all the functions of a Herbalist would be kept. Yes I'm passionate the making your own stuff it's one of our defining features. There will be standards established and we must make sure they are set for us not other interested parties. There are elements that would have all practitioner stuff bought from licensed facilities you know also within the herbal circle. Vested interests. However at the end if the day you have the power to choose who you buy from! Yes we must ensure that all our functions are protected and unite against any that stand in our way. Grrrrrrrrrr Lorraine Lorraine Hodgkinson MNIMH MRCHM HERBS AND HELPERS 6, Butts Fold, Cockermouth, Cumbria, CA13 9HY. UK. Tel: +44 (0) 1900 826392 Mobile: 07761 489838 (O2) www.herbalmedicineuk.com > Hi Sally... > > I too heard from Woodfield that I would be OK for small sale tincture making, we have about 2 acres in Essex and will be ready to sell tinctures to all our fellow herbies this year. Yes I am happy to put in place some quality control as this is important but not hundreds of thousands of pounds, as i believe Proline & Rutland have done, but they make products for 3rd parties and supply retail outlets so one can see that something more is required there. > I recall that some of the smaller tincture makers had this out with the MHRA, what licenses do we need, what can we comply with blah blah and it would appear that for small outfits like ours there was no answer, they did not know! It is interesting what , Tim et al were saying, these slippery MHRA buggers can keep changing the rules, that's what we have to watch out for and the meddling by the government on Section 12(1) medicines act. I have a bad feeling about that, and it must be left untouched. > > When all is said and done i don't understand why we just all cannot be on a simple register that you pay a small fee for and that keeps the public reassured. These 2 issues THMPD and SR have been muddled up together in order to force an issue that me my all come to regret, i a reminded of that old adage 'Marry in haste, repent in leisure' LOL !!!! basically lets not be too hasty until we ALL see the small print. > > Best wishes > > Jacqui > > > > >>> > > >>>> Seems like it's business as usual around here, does no one else > > >>>> find the > > >>>> silence around SR deafening? > > >>> > > >>> I'm not (yet) affected here in Finland, and I don't know that I will > > >>> ever be. > > >>> That being said: > > >>> > > >>>> > > >>> www.homeopathyheals.me.uk/site/latest-news/573-state-regulation-for-practitioner\ s-of-herbal-medicine > > >>> > > >>> comes across as a paranoiac. She also calls herself " Dr " > > >>> with no > > >>> credentials whatsoever. > > >>> Also, as far as I know, McI was pushing for UK regulation of > > >>> herbalists LONG before anybody was talking about EU regulation of > > >>> herbs. The > > >>> two are not related, and continuing to say they are is muddled > > >>> thinking. > > >>> > > >>> That article is crap. > > >>> > > >>> My own take on the imminent regulation of UK herbalists: > > >>> > > >>> * doctors still believe that herbs are balderdash > > >>> * doctors still think that herbs must be dangerous if they work > > >>> (digitalis is > > >>> pulled out of the cupboard regularly as a demonstration of this) > > >>> * doctors are _heavily_ influenced by pharmaceutical companies. Not > > >>> perhaps by > > >>> direct bribery (although that, too, happens), but mostly by trusting > > >>> mainstream medical journals. The " unbiased " " scientific " research > > >>> there is > > >>> bought and sold by the pint by pharmacogiants. > > >>> * herbs are cheap, can't be patented, and are as good or better for > > >>> quite a > > >>> lot of chronic diseases than mainstream medicines. Oops, there > > >>> goes the > > >>> profit. > > >>> * who is influencing your HMC, which, if I understood things > > >>> right, is > > >>> about > > >>> to regulate you? Doctors and pharmaceutical companies. > > >>> > > >>> And you are going to let that lot tell you what you can and cannot > > >>> practice? > > >>> Uh. Oh. > > >>> > > >>> Next, where are your _guarantees_ that you will have access to > > >>> otherwise > > >>> restricted herbs, once you're regulated? That should be clearly > > >>> spelled out > > >>> in laws that can't be changed at the drop of a hat. > > >>> You should also do your very best to protect your 1968 herbalist > > >>> laws. > > >>> > > >>> I do hope SR won't come back to bite you lot in the arse, very hard. > > >>> > > >>> H. > > >>> > > >>> -- > > >>> Henriette Kress, AHG Helsinki, Finland > > >>> Henriette's herbal homepage: http://www.henriettesherbal.com > > >>> Uusi kirja: http://www.henriettesherbal.com/fi/kayt-laak.html > > >>> > > >>> > > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 7, 2011 Report Share Posted March 7, 2011 Hi , I have copied this across from one of the articles on the Herbarium - I have also included a link on an article entitled " why we need to keep section 12(1) of the Medicines Act 1968 unchanged. I look forward to your comments: Fiction: Unless SR is implemented by 2011, section 12(1) herbalists would not have access to unlicensed herbal medicines. Only registered/licensed herbal medicines or homemade remedies would be available to their patients. Fact: Section 12(1) herbalists can continue to access unlicensed herbal medicines from their UK suppliers whether SR is implemented or not. http://theherbarium.wordpress.com/category/5-the-law-herbal-medicine/h-we-all-ne\ ed-to-keep-section-121-unchanged/ Regards, Therri From: anna.newton@... Sent: Monday, March 07, 2011 7:35 PM To: ukherbal-list Subject: Re: Re: Regulation Hi Therri,western herbalists are an exceptionally ethical bunch, but the cases of mispractice by the Chinese and Ayuverdic practitioners keep propping up, and yet we are lumped together by the public, government and the press (and quack busters). Perhaps you cannot prevent malpractice by doctors but you can bring them to justice - quite a few have been struck off.Anyway, the EU directive is here (only 2 months to go), and if we are not regulated we will not have the access to a lot of our medicines. I would not be happy with that.Best regards > > > > > > I know that we are all discussing this as ethical, professional > herbalists - > > > whether pro or anti SR. But we shouldn't forget that there are many more > > > people out there who are not. Who are in it for the money or have > read a few > > > books or done a couple of week-end courses. > > How many such have you come across in your career as herbalist? > > I know _loads_ of grannies who continue the traditions of their > family, and do > > kitchen herbalism for their kids and grandkids. > > I know of quite a lot of herbalifers. I don't think legislation will ever > > touch them ... they're a MLM, they keep low, they go from living room to > > living room. > > I know _no_ herbal weekenders (or book-readers) who are in it for the > money. > > And I believe that the way to educate the public about herbalifers and > > similarly silly MLMs is to, well, _educate_ them. > > The way to deal with grannies who keep their traditions alive is to, > well, > > _learn_ from them. They have a lot to tell ... > > Best, > > Henriette > > -- > > Henriette Kress, AHG Helsinki, Finland > > Henriette's herbal homepage: http://www.henriettesherbal.com > > Uusi kirja: http://www.henriettesherbal.com/fi/kayt-laak.html > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 7, 2011 Report Share Posted March 7, 2011 Dear Tim,I was not talking about bona fide herbalists but people who have done a weekend course or read a book or two and then treat unsuspecting patients with herbs about which they do not know very much. Please read the original email to which I responded, it will make more sense. There are quack out there, I have met a few, they were not fit to practice in my opinion (nothing to do with the money), but they charged a lot so they were not out there for altruistic reasons. Â One such individual called herself a " nutritionist " (did not belong to any association), and put one of my patients through some ridiculous diets and worming regimes (with herbs of course), although there was no evidence of him being infested at all. She practised on Harley Street and used to shout at patients (some obviously must have liked it). Another practitioner has done a weekend course in computer allergy testing, and then treated all his patients with Noni juice (he happened to be a Noni juice pyramid selling agent as well). Etc EtcRegards > > I know that we are all discussing this as ethical, professional herbalists - > whether pro or anti SR. But we shouldn't forget that there are many more > people out there who are not. Who are in it for the money or have read a few > books or done a couple of week-end courses. How many such have you come across in your career as herbalist? I know _loads_ of grannies who continue the traditions of their family, and do kitchen herbalism for their kids and grandkids. I know of quite a lot of herbalifers. I don't think legislation will ever touch them ... they're a MLM, they keep low, they go from living room to living room. I know _no_ herbal weekenders (or book-readers) who are in it for the money. And I believe that the way to educate the public about herbalifers and similarly silly MLMs is to, well, _educate_ them. The way to deal with grannies who keep their traditions alive is to, well, _learn_ from them. They have a lot to tell ... Best, Henriette -- Henriette Kress, AHG Helsinki, Finland Henriette's herbal homepage: http://www.henriettesherbal.com Uusi kirja: http://www.henriettesherbal.com/fi/kayt-laak.html Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 7, 2011 Report Share Posted March 7, 2011 Hi Therri,Simply not true, you will not be able to access " industrially " produced preparations like tablets (bye, bye MediHerb tablets), capsules, or complex preparation involving many ingredients (unless they are licensed). Most Chinese herbal formulas in tablet form will be illegal to dispense and it will be illegal for the producers to sell such products. What will remain will be tinctures and dry herbs, but of course you will be able to make your own tablets if you wished.Best wishes > > > > > > I know that we are all discussing this as ethical, professional > herbalists - > > > whether pro or anti SR. But we shouldn't forget that there are many more > > > people out there who are not. Who are in it for the money or have > read a few > > > books or done a couple of week-end courses. > > How many such have you come across in your career as herbalist? > > I know _loads_ of grannies who continue the traditions of their > family, and do > > kitchen herbalism for their kids and grandkids. > > I know of quite a lot of herbalifers. I don't think legislation will ever > > touch them ... they're a MLM, they keep low, they go from living room to > > living room. > > I know _no_ herbal weekenders (or book-readers) who are in it for the > money. > > And I believe that the way to educate the public about herbalifers and > > similarly silly MLMs is to, well, _educate_ them. > > The way to deal with grannies who keep their traditions alive is to, > well, > > _learn_ from them. They have a lot to tell ... > > Best, > > Henriette > > -- > > Henriette Kress, AHG Helsinki, Finland > > Henriette's herbal homepage: http://www.henriettesherbal.com > > Uusi kirja: http://www.henriettesherbal.com/fi/kayt-laak.html > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 7, 2011 Report Share Posted March 7, 2011 Hi , Some of us are both! Where would you put that? Lorraine Lorraine Hodgkinson MNIMH MRCHM HERBS AND HELPERS 6, Butts Fold, Cockermouth, Cumbria, CA13 9HY. UK. Tel: +44 (0) 1900 826392 Mobile: 07761 489838 (O2) www.herbalmedicineuk.com > Hi , > > There you go - Western herbalists are OK and others are not? You missed > off the smiley I think from that comment - unless you are serious....... > > If we, as holistic practitioners continue to say, I am OK, you are not - > then we are just the same as medics who denigrate alternative medicine > in general. Is it herbs and the practice of herbal medicine which is > important or little factional groups and subgroups? > > Regards > > Gascoigne > > > > > > Hi Therri,western herbalists are an exceptionally ethical bunch, but > > the cases of mispractice by the Chinese and Ayuverdic practitioners > > keep propping up, and yet we are lumped together by the public, > > government and the press (and quack busters). Perhaps you cannot > > prevent malpractice by doctors but you can bring them to justice - > > quite a few have been struck off.Anyway, the EU directive is here > > (only 2 months to go), and if we are not regulated we will not have > > the access to a lot of our medicines. I would not be happy with > > that.Best regards > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I know that we are all discussing this as ethical, professional > > > > > herbalists - > > > > > > > > > > > whether pro or anti SR. But we shouldn't forget that there are > > many more > > > > > > > > > > > people out there who are not. Who are in it for the money or have > > > > > read a few > > > > > > > > > > > books or done a couple of week-end courses. > > > > > > > > > > How many such have you come across in your career as herbalist? > > > > > > > > > > I know _loads_ of grannies who continue the traditions of their > > > > > family, and do > > > > > > > > > > kitchen herbalism for their kids and grandkids. > > > > > > > > > > I know of quite a lot of herbalifers. I don't think legislation will > > ever > > > > > > > > > > touch them ... they're a MLM, they keep low, they go from living room to > > > > > > > > > > living room. > > > > > > > > > > I know _no_ herbal weekenders (or book-readers) who are in it for the > > > > > money. > > > > > > > > > > And I believe that the way to educate the public about herbalifers and > > > > > > > > > > similarly silly MLMs is to, well, _educate_ them. > > > > > > > > > > The way to deal with grannies who keep their traditions alive is to, > > > > > well, > > > > > > > > > > _learn_ from them. They have a lot to tell ... > > > > > > > > > > Best, > > > > > > > > > > Henriette > > > > > > > > > > -- > > > > > > > > > > Henriette Kress, AHG Helsinki, Finland > > > > > > > > > > Henriette's herbal homepage: http://www.henriettesherbal.com > > > > > > > > > > Uusi kirja: http://www.henriettesherbal.com/fi/kayt-laak.html > > > > > > > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 10, 2011 Report Share Posted March 10, 2011 Hi all re local preparation... we all know what homegrown tomatoes and strawberries smell and taste like from our garden, or from a farmers' market when they are in season, as opposed to the odourless, tasteless ones we can get in supermarkets. Why would herbs be any different? In my experience, it is truly an eye-opener to compare the taste of a tincture made from home grown herbs with those made by manufacturers. Sue Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 10, 2011 Report Share Posted March 10, 2011 Hello Sally, You are very right to be concerned and you should question the shopkeeper about the CITES status of the product. Mentioning that your understanding is that some species are endangered and legally protected. This type of thing can give TCM such a bad name so helping awareness makes it harder for the illegals to hide. Best wishes, Lorraine Lorraine Hodgkinson MNIMH MRCHM HERBS AND HELPERS 6, Butts Fold, Cockermouth, Cumbria, CA13 9HY. UK. Tel: +44 (0) 1900 826392 Mobile: 07761 489838 (O2) www.herbalmedicineuk.com > Hi Tim > > I think Lorraine already pointed out that the turtles are now being > farmed, so my concern in that case was unfounded. (I'm glad to say) I > think your general point on enforcement is sound though. > > Sally > > >> >> Thanks Lorraine for this response. But tightening rules is >> meaningless without enforcement. This ¡®turtle jelly¡¯ product sounds >> not someone bringing it to the UK in a suitcase, but someone >> importing it for retail sale in a commercial outlet! And the >> contents (even if in Chinese) were stated on the label! So until >> there is enforcement of existing rules (in this case the CITES >> stuff), there is no point in introducing ever more complex >> legislation. >> >> Best regards, >> Tim. >> From: Herbs and Helpers >> Sent: Thursday, March 10, 2011 9:49 AM >> To: ukherbal-list >> Subject: Re: Re: Regulation >> >> >> Hello Tim, >> I was just looking at the MHRA legislation regarding THMPD and they >> have now tightened up the rules to say that any THMPD product coming >> into the UK must be made in an EU GMP certified facility. Also you >> will require an import license on such products. So it looks like >> the idea is to try and stop 'rogue' products from entering the >> country in the first place. There will of course always be the >> suitcase importers claiming personal use. >> >> Lorraine >> >> Lorraine Hodgkinson MNIMH MRCHM >> HERBS AND HELPERS >> 6, Butts Fold, Cockermouth, >> Cumbria, CA13 9HY. UK. >> Tel: +44 (0) 1900 826392 >> Mobile: 07761 489838 (O2) >> www.herbalmedicineuk.com >> >> On 10 Mar 2011, at 09:16, " Tim Lane " <mailto:tim_lane%40live.co.uk> >> wrote: >> >>> Hello Sally, >>> >>> You must have been pretty gutted when you realised what you had >>> purchased. But the incident you experienced illustrates that >>> regardless of legislation, there will ALWAYS be those who can, and >>> will, circumvent the most stringent legislation that is enacted. >>> For instance, the likes of the noni juice salesman to whom >>> referred, is likely to find more inventive ways to get round SR. >>> >>> The problem with adulteration of herbs with pharmaceuticals, >>> contamination with bacteria, heavy metals etc. is that existing >>> legislation covering such things has not been adequately enforced. >>> So until that happens, the introduction of further layers of >>> legislation seems to me not only to be futile, threatens the >>> smaller scale producer (which gives the best possible community >>> based situation for a herbalist to get to know and trust that >>> producer) who I feel produces the best quality herbal medicines, >>> and could engender the sense of false security. And There is an >>> argument that the more complex the legislation, the more >>> opportunity there is for less that honest producer to hide behind >>> the complexity of that legislation. >>> >>> Best regards, >>> Tim. >>> >>> From: Sally Owen >>> Sent: Wednesday, March 09, 2011 5:03 PM >>> To: mailto:ukherbal-list%40yahoogroups.com >>> Subject: Re: Re: Regulation >>> >>> On a different note, but also illegal- I was once with friends >>> hurrying through a chinese supermarket, buying tinned shitake, dried >>> whole roots to cook with at home, chillie sauce etc, and I bought a >>> tin of " herb jelly " without looking at it carefully. >>> When i got it home, I researched the ingredients on t'internet, and >>> found its main ingredient was endangered sea turtle, export of which >>> is prohibited under CITES. >>> >>> Even if we make our own tinctures, sometimes those pesky foreign >>> herbs >>> are the ones that seem indicated. And I want to be able to rely on >>> them to be them - and not mixed with endangered turtle. >>> >>> just saying >>> >>> Sally Owen >>> >>> Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 15, 2011 Report Share Posted March 15, 2011 Dear Tim, Valid concerns, I think. A lot of this discussion, and any discussion on SR, is purely speculative as we do not know what is going to unfold - whether SR happens or not. However, what you can definitely be clear about is this - SR and membership of the HPC will not lead to a widening of herbal medicine practice. The real risk is as you state - a diminuition in what we do and who we treat. Regards Gascoigne > > I also feel there is a risk that SR under the HPC will lead to a > narrowing of our scope of practice as other influences are brought to > bear. There are also concerns as to how it will impact on running > costs, training, post graduate training, and our mode of practice. > > What if SR proves to be a disaster individually, or collectively? > Where is a fall back position then? By leaving 12(1) unchanged, and > allowing both SR’ed and non-SR’ed herbalists to co-exist, this would > give a plan B should one be needed. It would also provide a means > whereby SR will not impose itself as the only possible option on those > herbalists who, for perfectly rational reasons, would not want to > become SR’ed. This is why it is so important the 12(1) does not become > the exclusive domain of those who wish to be SR’ed. The inclusivity of > this dual approach offers fairness, diversity, and a plan B should one > be needed. > > Best regards, > Tim. > > From: Dr S Gascoigne > Sent: Monday, March 14, 2011 1:05 PM > To: ukherbal-list > <mailto:ukherbal-list%40yahoogroups.com> > Subject: Re: Re: Regulation > > Hi, > > Ethics and conventional medicine - now that is an interesting discussion! > > I agree with Annette about being sceptical. I don't think that SR will > lead to any great increase in work/referrals as osteopaths have had SR > for some time now with little or no result on those lines. I am state > regulated as a medical practitioner and I rarely get referrals from my > former colleagues for acupuncture or herbal medicine. It is to do with > belief and generally conventional practitioners have no great belief in > what we do - that is if it even crosses their radar - a combination of > prejudice, ignorance and simple lack of time are powerful forces for > inertia. > > However, I also agree that things are changing. I believe that even > until 1975 (the year before I qualified in medicine) you could still get > struck off the medical register for referring a patient to an > alternative medicine practitioner. Some GP's are more open and certainly > fund holding does concentrate minds particularly if money can be saved > by other forms of treatment. > > I must sound a cautionary note though. At the moment people self-refer. > We need to careful not to enter into a relationship with medical > practitioners where we see people only through referral from them. This > will leave us with a restricted level of practice as others determine > what we can and cannot treat. In an NHS setup, it is extremely unlikely > that people will be able to self-refer to a herbalist. In the hierarchy > of professionals, herbalists and other practitioners will come below > GP's, in terms of status, pay and ability to treat what they like. > > Regards > > Gascoigne > > On 13/03/2011 23:46, mailto:monica%40plantamedica.co.uk wrote: > > > > > > Thanks Annette but sometimes prefer to look at things with the pink > > glasses on, you see ? > > > > Yes I am with you there and know of the resistance and opposition from > > the general pharmaceutical and medical profession all too well. Yet > > there's still a few GPs who realise what's best for their patients. > > Would they share some of the 80 billions one wonders? Wasn't it like > > that when there was a GP Fundholding? After all they haven't been > > trained to prescribe herbs and if they had any ethics... > > > > Not holding my breath though and only believe on what I can achieve > > locally, so far a few talks & walks at townswomen's guilds and friends > > of parks groups, a couple of regular patients and treating people I > > know for peanuts - not enough to make a living but it's a start. Just > > planting the seed, and if you plant it on good soil, and look after > > it, it'll surely grow. Let's do our bit and hope for a bit of sunshine. > > > > Warmly, monica > > > > ---------------------------------------- > > From: " Annette Wass " <mailto:annette%40laszlo.globalnet.co.uk > > <mailto:annette%40laszlo.globalnet.co.uk>> > > Sent: 13 March 2011 18:07 > > To: mailto:ukherbal-list%40yahoogroups.com > <mailto:ukherbal-list%40yahoogroups.com> > > Subject: Re: Re: Regulation > > > > Hi monica > > > > I dont want to sound like an old cynic but I really wouldnt hold youre > > breath in hoping that herbal medicine will be any more acceptable or > > available in mainstream medicine under SR- I just cant see that > > happening in a month of sundays . If primary care wants to use herbs > > then I would imagine they ll just hijack it themselves - a bit like > > some doctors do already " oh youre depressed why not try st johns wort " > > > > best curmudgeonly regards ,annette > > > > I'd like to see that changing and hope that SR will open up the > > possibility for people to have the freedom to chose being treated with > > herbs in primary health care. With herbs in their natural form, as > > much as possible, and with herbal remedies prepared by herbalists who > > care about the wellbeing of others. > > > > Perhaps what we need to do is keeping a line of communication open > > with our MPs to voice our concerns. > > > > monica > > > > ---------------------------------------- > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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