Re: Valued Life

[Guest guest]

Bruce -

Write a list of things to be done and start doing them, even if just one a day. What is your definition of "satisfaction?"

Who or what do you want to care about? Name two or three using one or two words each.

Who or what do you want to be connected to" Ditto above instructions.

What kind of a contribution do you want to make? Ditto

How does "feel bad" feel?

Sorry, I'm in a curious mood today.

Bill

To: ACT_for_the_Public From: onebnz@...Date: Wed, 16 Feb 2011 12:31:19 -0800Subject: Re: Valued Life

Thanks for your comments, everyone. I am again staring out the window and trying to accept my feelings of tension, anxiety and fatigue. Accept, accept, accept, I tell myself yet I continue to struggle.

Bill, thanks for the comments that you think I'm close to getting it. That gives me hope. Today is a tough day, as I am home without much to do. I feel kind of like the retiree who struggles to fill his days. Of course, there are infinite things to do and be interested in but nothing seems to satisfy.

I really relate to caring, connection and contribution. Those are values to me. I just don't see enough opportunity for me to apply them. The problem seems to be that I need to be engaged in these values constantly or I immediately feel bad.

thanks,

Bruce

Hi Bruce,

Sorry to hear of your troubles. Here is something that may possibly help. While there are hundreds of different values, and no such thing as ‘right’ or ‘wrong’, almost all values grow from the soil of the big three Cs: caring, connection and contribution. Examine any value, and see if it’s not the case that to some degree it’s about caring (i.e. expressing concern or affection) about someone or something, connecting (i.e. engaging) with someone or something, and contributing (i.e. giving) to someone or something (including yourself of course).

Now I’m going to suggest a different approach than the usual ACT approach; rather than trying to re-organise your day to fill it up with all sorts of values-guided activities or values-guided goals, instead keep doing what you’re doing in terms of activity – but see if you can infuse that activity with one or more of the three Cs, and see what happens. For example,

When you’re staring out the window, can you truly connect with the view; notice the details; turn it into a mindfulness practice; and can you find something out there to care about – the birds or the trees or the weather? Or can you connect with yourself as you look out that window - notice your body and how you are holding it? Can you contribute to yourself in some way as you stare out that window: do some gentle stretching or mindful breathing, or have some meaningful music playing? When you’re surfing the internet, can you find something there to care about or contribute – Just as you contribute to this forum, and your posts reveal some of what you care about? Can you periodically connect with your body amidst the surfing – take a break and stretch etc?

These are just examples; I’m curious to see what you can come up with and what difference it will make to your day to keep bringing those qualities of caring, connection and contribution in to your routine.

All the best,

Cheers,

Russ

www.actmindfully.com.au

www.thehappinesstrap.com

From: ACT_for_the_Public [mailto:ACT_for_the_Public ] On Behalf Of O KisutchSent: Monday, 14 February 2011 8:18 AMTo: ACT_for_the_Public Subject: Re: Valued Life

Bruce,

Sorry to hear about your mood issue. A few comments follow.

In your posts you use the terms "desired effect", "potency", "bounce", "enjoyable", "nothing works for long", "sense of meaning", "makes me feel better", and "feel like I'm doing something valued". These all refer to the goal of a change in mood or achieving a certain feeling. This goal is part and parcel of the other approaches you are trying, but should it be applied to your ACT work?

My understanding is that ACT helps us release our tight grip on the feeling-based preconditions and evaluations which restrict our behavior. And I wonder if you are applying the above preconditions and evaluations--which are part and parcel of the other approaches you are trying--to the ACT processes and in so doing making an error?

I think your post is interesting because it raises a fundamental question for me: what feelings should I pursue, e.g., should I try to have fun, try to experience joy, try to not feel shame, etc.? Should I pursue feelings? Should I do something/or avoid doing something because it makes me feel a certain way?

One answer: do what you value. Another answer: obviously, yes, you should try to have fun, have joy, not feel meaningless. I think ACT gives us a way to try to steer through life where, sometimes, seeking feelings works in terms of living a valued life but, at other times, seeking feelings can really get in the way of a valued life.

There's a kind of everything or nothing in the ACT books I've read with respect to willingness and seeking feeling. I often wonder if it's more rhetorical than actual--just like that chapter in the books that try to get us to admit that all the other solutions we've tried haven't worked. Well, some of those methods probably do work, or could work, given certain conditions etc. But the function of those chapters and the 100% approach to willingness is to achieve the effect of improvement, and that justifies the means. Getting someone to commit wholeheartedly to ACT and dedicate their resources to learning and doing it probably leads to better results, esp. because ACT runs counter to the feeling-orientation of people who suffer from unwanted feelings.

I think the real world is not black and white but color. So, sometimes it's good to have those feeling goals in hand, but it's also good to be able to loosen the grip on them like when you were typing your message below with the sinking, grinding feeling that told you what was going to happen today.

Oki

To: ACT_for_the_Public Sent: Sun, February 13, 2011 9:48:27 AMSubject: Re: Valued Life

Thank you to everyone for your messages this morning. I certainly appreciate the replies and I'm reading the posts with great interest.

I did try Cymbalta a few months ago and that has been fine but has not achieved the desired effect, at least for me. Actually, I have tried various anti-depressants and other medications over the past 12 years. At first, Paxil was quite effective for me but over time it seems that SSRIs have lost their potency. I did feel like a different person when the Paxil was really working. I trust my doctor but I think we are both at a loss of what to try next.

Regarding my values, I'm watching my daughter play basketball this afternoon and I have a 12-Step meeting tonight. Those are both highly valued activities for me and I'll very likely feel better when participating in them. But I can't demand my daughter play basketball all day or that I sit in meetings continually. My values of caring for my family and keeping my job prevent that. Right now, in the morning, I'm sitting here with the sinking, grinding feeling in my gut for no real reason except it's another day. I'm one of those people who gets up every morning looking forward to going to bed again at night. Until I leave for my daughter's game, my activities will be variations on surfing the Internet and staring out the window. It's "zoning out" as defined in the Happiness Trap but it's a lot of my life. I'm one of those people who has tried just about every one of the control strategies Russ mentions in that section of the book and he's right, nothing works for long. Right now, fish oil/Omega 3s, vitamin D and exercise are the factors I'm placing my hopes in. I figure they are good for my health even if they don't improve my mood. Strangely, I get no bounce from exercise. It's like my feel-good endorphins are not working.

I guess my values place being a good dad at the top of the list and being a good husband to my wife. Being self-supporting through my job is also a big one. After that, it kind of drops off. I'm envious of people who can lose themselves in hobbies and causes. I'm nominally involved in several of these but they've lost any sense of real meaning. It's hard to even get myself to watch TV. Reading self-help books that offer some hope is my most enjoyable hobby.

Anyway, thanks for reading this. It does make me feel better that there are people out there who can relate to what I'm going through and that some people are able to get to the other side.

Bruce

Hi Simone, I was thinking along those lines, too. It really sounds like a deeply ingrained depression that Bruce is experiencing, perhaps as a byproduct of anxiety, or in an of itself--they feed off of each other. I lived that way for years before getting back on track with the help of medication. I am grateful that I have a doctor who is anti-meds in general but sees their usefulness in certain individuals and monitors me carefully for unwanted side effects.

Bruce, a few months back, I think you mentioned that you were going to try an anti depressant. How did that go? Do you have a doctor you totally trust in this regard?

Helena

Valued LifeTo: ACT_for_the_Public Date: Friday, 11 February, 2011, 20:16

Part of my problem is that I don't really know what a valued life looks like. I have a full life, if I list all my activities. I'm generally acting on my values. But even so, I have a lot of discretionary time and I don't really know what to do with it. I have a lot of time I'm obligated to be at work or home but no compelling next thing to do. So I struggle with procrastination and meaninglessness. If I just pick something to do, I have a hard time concentrating, sticking with it, and feeling like I'm doing something valued. It seems like this has been going on forever. And everything thing I do to get through this seems like a control activity.Thanks for any thoughts,Bruce

[Guest guest]

Hi Bill:Thanks for your reply.I do have a to-do list and I generally get what I need to do done. But I don't get much satisfaction. I guess satisfaction to me is a feeling of well-being, that I've done well.I want to care about my family, my work, and my community. I guess that's kind of stock stuff. I struggle most with work. I just can't seem to get invested in it the way others can.For connection, I'd say the same three things as above.For contribution, I'd like to really contribute my talents and efforts at work. A good deal of the time, I'm "sitting on my hands". The bad feeling is tightness in the stomach and fatigue in the mind. I also have deep avoidance of doing anything. I'm obsessed with these feelings and monitor them constantly. Getting deeply involved or concentrating on something is very difficult.It used to be that these feelings were more intense but only lasted part of the day. Now they're more diffuse but they come on early in the day and stay until late evening. Bruce - Write a list of things to be done and start doing them, even if just one a day. What is your definition of "satisfaction?"Who or what do you want to care about? Name two or three using one or two words each. Who or what do you want to be connected to" Ditto above instructions. What kind of a contribution do you want to make? Ditto How does "feel bad" feel? Sorry, I'm in a curious mood today. Bill To: ACT_for_the_Public From: onebnz@...Date: Wed, 16 Feb 2011 12:31:19 -0800Subject: Re: Valued LifeThanks for your comments, everyone. I am again staring out the window and trying to accept my feelings of tension, anxiety and fatigue. Accept, accept, accept, I tell myself yet I continue to struggle.Bill, thanks for the comments that you think I'm close to getting it. That gives me hope. Today is a tough day, as I am home without much to do. I feel kind of like the retiree who struggles to fill his days. Of course, there are infinite things to do and be interested in but nothing seems to satisfy.I really relate to caring, connection and contribution. Those are values to me. I just don't see enough opportunity for me to apply them. The problem seems to be that I need to be engaged in these values constantly or I immediately feel bad.thanks,BruceHi Bruce,Sorry to hear of your troubles. Here is something that may possibly help. While there are hundreds of different values, and no such thing as ‘right’ or ‘wrong’, almost all values grow from the soil of the big three Cs: caring, connection and contribution. Examine any value, and see if it’s not the case that to some degree it’s about caring (i.e. expressing concern or affection) about someone or something, connecting (i.e. engaging) with someone or something, and contributing (i.e. giving) to someone or something (including yourself of course).Now I’m going to suggest a different approach than the usual ACT approach; rather than trying to re-organise your day to fill it up with all sorts of values-guided activities or values-guided goals, instead keep doing what you’re doing in terms of activity – but see if you can infuse that activity with one or more of the three Cs, and see what happens. For example, When you’re staring out the window, can you truly connect with the view; notice the details; turn it into a mindfulness practice; and can you find something out there to care about – the birds or the trees or the weather? Or can you connect with yourself as you look out that window - notice your body and how you are holding it? Can you contribute to yourself in some way as you stare out that window: do some gentle stretching or mindful breathing, or have some meaningful music playing? When you’re surfing the internet, can you find something there to care about or contribute – Just as you contribute to this forum, and your posts reveal some of what you care about? Can you periodically connect with your body amidst the surfing – take a break and stretch etc?These are just examples; I’m curious to see what you can come up with and what difference it will make to your day to keep bringing those qualities of caring, connection and contribution in to your routine. All the best,Cheers,Russ www.actmindfully.com.auwww.thehappinesstrap.com From: ACT_for_the_Public [mailto:ACT_for_the_Public ] On Behalf Of O KisutchSent: Monday, 14 February 2011 8:18 AMTo: ACT_for_the_Public Subject: Re: Valued Life Bruce, Sorry to hear about your mood issue. A few comments follow. In your posts you use the terms "desired effect", "potency", "bounce", "enjoyable", "nothing works for long", "sense of meaning", "makes me feel better", and "feel like I'm doing something valued". These all refer to the goal of a change in mood or achieving a certain feeling. This goal is part and parcel of the other approaches you are trying, but should it be applied to your ACT work? My understanding is that ACT helps us release our tight grip on the feeling-based preconditions and evaluations which restrict our behavior. And I wonder if you are applying the above preconditions and evaluations--which are part and parcel of the other approaches you are trying--to the ACT processes and in so doing making an error? I think your post is interesting because it raises a fundamental question for me: what feelings should I pursue, e.g., should I try to have fun, try to experience joy, try to not feel shame, etc.? Should I pursue feelings? Should I do something/or avoid doing something because it makes me feel a certain way? One answer: do what you value. Another answer: obviously, yes, you should try to have fun, have joy, not feel meaningless. I think ACT gives us a way to try to steer through life where, sometimes, seeking feelings works in terms of living a valued life but, at other times, seeking feelings can really get in the way of a valued life. There's a kind of everything or nothing in the ACT books I've read with respect to willingness and seeking feeling. I often wonder if it's more rhetorical than actual--just like that chapter in the books that try to get us to admit that all the other solutions we've tried haven't worked. Well, some of those methods probably do work, or could work, given certain conditions etc. But the function of those chapters and the 100% approach to willingness is to achieve the effect of improvement, and that justifies the means. Getting someone to commit wholeheartedly to ACT and dedicate their resources to learning and doing it probably leads to better results, esp. because ACT runs counter to the feeling-orientation of people who suffer from unwanted feelings. I think the real world is not black and white but color. So, sometimes it's good to have those feeling goals in hand, but it's also good to be able to loosen the grip on them like when you were typing your message below with the sinking, grinding feeling that told you what was going to happen today. Oki To: ACT_for_the_Public Sent: Sun, February 13, 2011 9:48:27 AMSubject: Re: Valued Life Thank you to everyone for your messages this morning. I certainly appreciate the replies and I'm reading the posts with great interest. I did try Cymbalta a few months ago and that has been fine but has not achieved the desired effect, at least for me. Actually, I have tried various anti-depressants and other medications over the past 12 years. At first, Paxil was quite effective for me but over time it seems that SSRIs have lost their potency. I did feel like a different person when the Paxil was really working. I trust my doctor but I think we are both at a loss of what to try next. Regarding my values, I'm watching my daughter play basketball this afternoon and I have a 12-Step meeting tonight. Those are both highly valued activities for me and I'll very likely feel better when participating in them. But I can't demand my daughter play basketball all day or that I sit in meetings continually. My values of caring for my family and keeping my job prevent that. Right now, in the morning, I'm sitting here with the sinking, grinding feeling in my gut for no real reason except it's another day. I'm one of those people who gets up every morning looking forward to going to bed again at night. Until I leave for my daughter's game, my activities will be variations on surfing the Internet and staring out the window. It's "zoning out" as defined in the Happiness Trap but it's a lot of my life. I'm one of those people who has tried just about every one of the control strategies Russ mentions in that section of the book and he's right, nothing works for long. Right now, fish oil/Omega 3s, vitamin D and exercise are the factors I'm placing my hopes in. I figure they are good for my health even if they don't improve my mood. Strangely, I get no bounce from exercise. It's like my feel-good endorphins are not working. I guess my values place being a good dad at the top of the list and being a good husband to my wife. Being self-supporting through my job is also a big one. After that, it kind of drops off. I'm envious of people who can lose themselves in hobbies and causes. I'm nominally involved in several of these but they've lost any sense of real meaning. It's hard to even get myself to watch TV. Reading self-help books that offer some hope is my most enjoyable hobby. Anyway, thanks for reading this. It does make me feel better that there are people out there who can relate to what I'm going through and that some people are able to get to the other side. Bruce Hi Simone, I was thinking along those lines, too. It really sounds like a deeply ingrained depression that Bruce is experiencing, perhaps as a byproduct of anxiety, or in an of itself--they feed off of each other. I lived that way for years before getting back on track with the help of medication. I am grateful that I have a doctor who is anti-meds in general but sees their usefulness in certain individuals and monitors me carefully for unwanted side effects. Bruce, a few months back, I think you mentioned that you were going to try an anti depressant. How did that go? Do you have a doctor you totally trust in this regard? Helena Valued LifeTo: ACT_for_the_Public Date: Friday, 11 February, 2011, 20:16 Part of my problem is that I don't really know what a valued life looks like. I have a full life, if I list all my activities. I'm generally acting on my values. But even so, I have a lot of discretionary time and I don't really know what to do with it. I have a lot of time I'm obligated to be at work or home but no compelling next thing to do. So I struggle with procrastination and meaninglessness. If I just pick something to do, I have a hard time concentrating, sticking with it, and feeling like I'm doing something valued. It seems like this has been going on forever. And everything thing I do to get through this seems like a control activity.Thanks for any thoughts,Bruce

[Guest guest]

And you've inspired me to finish the one project I needed to do today. I was going to wait until tonight, when I felt better... Of course, I'd like to be able to just tackle the project first thing in the morning. But I guess I've got to be happy with just getting it done.Bruce - Write a list of things to be done and start doing them, even if just one a day. What is your definition of "satisfaction?"Who or what do you want to care about? Name two or three using one or two words each. Who or what do you want to be connected to" Ditto above instructions. What kind of a contribution do you want to make? Ditto How does "feel bad" feel? Sorry, I'm in a curious mood today. Bill To: ACT_for_the_Public From: onebnz@...Date: Wed, 16 Feb 2011 12:31:19 -0800Subject: Re: Valued LifeThanks for your comments, everyone. I am again staring out the window and trying to accept my feelings of tension, anxiety and fatigue. Accept, accept, accept, I tell myself yet I continue to struggle.Bill, thanks for the comments that you think I'm close to getting it. That gives me hope. Today is a tough day, as I am home without much to do. I feel kind of like the retiree who struggles to fill his days. Of course, there are infinite things to do and be interested in but nothing seems to satisfy.I really relate to caring, connection and contribution. Those are values to me. I just don't see enough opportunity for me to apply them. The problem seems to be that I need to be engaged in these values constantly or I immediately feel bad.thanks,BruceHi Bruce,Sorry to hear of your troubles. Here is something that may possibly help. While there are hundreds of different values, and no such thing as ‘right’ or ‘wrong’, almost all values grow from the soil of the big three Cs: caring, connection and contribution. Examine any value, and see if it’s not the case that to some degree it’s about caring (i.e. expressing concern or affection) about someone or something, connecting (i.e. engaging) with someone or something, and contributing (i.e. giving) to someone or something (including yourself of course).Now I’m going to suggest a different approach than the usual ACT approach; rather than trying to re-organise your day to fill it up with all sorts of values-guided activities or values-guided goals, instead keep doing what you’re doing in terms of activity – but see if you can infuse that activity with one or more of the three Cs, and see what happens. For example, When you’re staring out the window, can you truly connect with the view; notice the details; turn it into a mindfulness practice; and can you find something out there to care about – the birds or the trees or the weather? Or can you connect with yourself as you look out that window - notice your body and how you are holding it? Can you contribute to yourself in some way as you stare out that window: do some gentle stretching or mindful breathing, or have some meaningful music playing? When you’re surfing the internet, can you find something there to care about or contribute – Just as you contribute to this forum, and your posts reveal some of what you care about? Can you periodically connect with your body amidst the surfing – take a break and stretch etc?These are just examples; I’m curious to see what you can come up with and what difference it will make to your day to keep bringing those qualities of caring, connection and contribution in to your routine. All the best,Cheers,Russ www.actmindfully.com.auwww.thehappinesstrap.com From: ACT_for_the_Public [mailto:ACT_for_the_Public ] On Behalf Of O KisutchSent: Monday, 14 February 2011 8:18 AMTo: ACT_for_the_Public Subject: Re: Valued Life Bruce, Sorry to hear about your mood issue. A few comments follow. In your posts you use the terms "desired effect", "potency", "bounce", "enjoyable", "nothing works for long", "sense of meaning", "makes me feel better", and "feel like I'm doing something valued". These all refer to the goal of a change in mood or achieving a certain feeling. This goal is part and parcel of the other approaches you are trying, but should it be applied to your ACT work? My understanding is that ACT helps us release our tight grip on the feeling-based preconditions and evaluations which restrict our behavior. And I wonder if you are applying the above preconditions and evaluations--which are part and parcel of the other approaches you are trying--to the ACT processes and in so doing making an error? I think your post is interesting because it raises a fundamental question for me: what feelings should I pursue, e.g., should I try to have fun, try to experience joy, try to not feel shame, etc.? Should I pursue feelings? Should I do something/or avoid doing something because it makes me feel a certain way? One answer: do what you value. Another answer: obviously, yes, you should try to have fun, have joy, not feel meaningless. I think ACT gives us a way to try to steer through life where, sometimes, seeking feelings works in terms of living a valued life but, at other times, seeking feelings can really get in the way of a valued life. There's a kind of everything or nothing in the ACT books I've read with respect to willingness and seeking feeling. I often wonder if it's more rhetorical than actual--just like that chapter in the books that try to get us to admit that all the other solutions we've tried haven't worked. Well, some of those methods probably do work, or could work, given certain conditions etc. But the function of those chapters and the 100% approach to willingness is to achieve the effect of improvement, and that justifies the means. Getting someone to commit wholeheartedly to ACT and dedicate their resources to learning and doing it probably leads to better results, esp. because ACT runs counter to the feeling-orientation of people who suffer from unwanted feelings. I think the real world is not black and white but color. So, sometimes it's good to have those feeling goals in hand, but it's also good to be able to loosen the grip on them like when you were typing your message below with the sinking, grinding feeling that told you what was going to happen today. Oki To: ACT_for_the_Public Sent: Sun, February 13, 2011 9:48:27 AMSubject: Re: Valued Life Thank you to everyone for your messages this morning. I certainly appreciate the replies and I'm reading the posts with great interest. I did try Cymbalta a few months ago and that has been fine but has not achieved the desired effect, at least for me. Actually, I have tried various anti-depressants and other medications over the past 12 years. At first, Paxil was quite effective for me but over time it seems that SSRIs have lost their potency. I did feel like a different person when the Paxil was really working. I trust my doctor but I think we are both at a loss of what to try next. Regarding my values, I'm watching my daughter play basketball this afternoon and I have a 12-Step meeting tonight. Those are both highly valued activities for me and I'll very likely feel better when participating in them. But I can't demand my daughter play basketball all day or that I sit in meetings continually. My values of caring for my family and keeping my job prevent that. Right now, in the morning, I'm sitting here with the sinking, grinding feeling in my gut for no real reason except it's another day. I'm one of those people who gets up every morning looking forward to going to bed again at night. Until I leave for my daughter's game, my activities will be variations on surfing the Internet and staring out the window. It's "zoning out" as defined in the Happiness Trap but it's a lot of my life. I'm one of those people who has tried just about every one of the control strategies Russ mentions in that section of the book and he's right, nothing works for long. Right now, fish oil/Omega 3s, vitamin D and exercise are the factors I'm placing my hopes in. I figure they are good for my health even if they don't improve my mood. Strangely, I get no bounce from exercise. It's like my feel-good endorphins are not working. I guess my values place being a good dad at the top of the list and being a good husband to my wife. Being self-supporting through my job is also a big one. After that, it kind of drops off. I'm envious of people who can lose themselves in hobbies and causes. I'm nominally involved in several of these but they've lost any sense of real meaning. It's hard to even get myself to watch TV. Reading self-help books that offer some hope is my most enjoyable hobby. Anyway, thanks for reading this. It does make me feel better that there are people out there who can relate to what I'm going through and that some people are able to get to the other side. Bruce Hi Simone, I was thinking along those lines, too. It really sounds like a deeply ingrained depression that Bruce is experiencing, perhaps as a byproduct of anxiety, or in an of itself--they feed off of each other. I lived that way for years before getting back on track with the help of medication. I am grateful that I have a doctor who is anti-meds in general but sees their usefulness in certain individuals and monitors me carefully for unwanted side effects. Bruce, a few months back, I think you mentioned that you were going to try an anti depressant. How did that go? Do you have a doctor you totally trust in this regard? Helena Valued LifeTo: ACT_for_the_Public Date: Friday, 11 February, 2011, 20:16 Part of my problem is that I don't really know what a valued life looks like. I have a full life, if I list all my activities. I'm generally acting on my values. But even so, I have a lot of discretionary time and I don't really know what to do with it. I have a lot of time I'm obligated to be at work or home but no compelling next thing to do. So I struggle with procrastination and meaninglessness. If I just pick something to do, I have a hard time concentrating, sticking with it, and feeling like I'm doing something valued. It seems like this has been going on forever. And everything thing I do to get through this seems like a control activity.Thanks for any thoughts,Bruce

[Guest guest]

Hi Bruce - It sounds like you are expecting satisfaction from the place you are unlikely to get it - your job! By the way you describe your work situation, albeit very generally, there is not much hope for the job to yield what you are looking for. That doesn't mean you need to change jobs. It means you need to find an outlet for your time and efforts where you will get the satisfaction you are looking for. Maybe the job needs to be a means to some other end rather than the end itself. I honestly don't know many people whose values are satisfied by their job. And I've had many hundreds of people in my organizations. Most of the "happy ones" were people who pursued their values away from work, for the most part. The truly unhappy ones were those who expected "happiness" from some truly crappy jobs, supervised by some truly crappy supervisors.

The quest for the sense of well-being has always been a trap (as in Happiness Trap) for me. I get "it" two or three times a week at the most, usually when I feel I have successfully defused or accepted something. I get it when someone thanks me for a contribution; and when I feel connected to another person, especially when caring.

The tight feeling in the stomach is something to be accepted, especially the feelings you have about them. The fatigue in the mind sounds like a symptom of your struggles.

I said I think you are close to getting it. I said that because you sound very tired of life the way it has been and are really, really ready for a change. Plus you seem to understand what ACT asks you to do to get it. It's time to get out the hexaflex and the tools in your toolkit and and start using them, in very small but deliberate doses. There will probably not be an epiphany. But you might notice some very small "highs" that you can build on. The first ones might be hard to recognize as they will be the slight absence of struggle. Build on those.

Acceptance is a necessary component but not a sufficient component of psychological flexibility - the purpose of ACT.

Bill

To: ACT_for_the_Public From: onebnz@...Date: Wed, 16 Feb 2011 16:06:40 -0800Subject: Re: Valued Life

Hi Bill:

Thanks for your reply.

I do have a to-do list and I generally get what I need to do done. But I don't get much satisfaction. I guess satisfaction to me is a feeling of well-being, that I've done well.

I want to care about my family, my work, and my community. I guess that's kind of stock stuff. I struggle most with work. I just can't seem to get invested in it the way others can.

For connection, I'd say the same three things as above.

For contribution, I'd like to really contribute my talents and efforts at work. A good deal of the time, I'm "sitting on my hands".

The bad feeling is tightness in the stomach and fatigue in the mind. I also have deep avoidance of doing anything. I'm obsessed with these feelings and monitor them constantly. Getting deeply involved or concentrating on something is very difficult.

It used to be that these feelings were more intense but only lasted part of the day. Now they're more diffuse but they come on early in the day and stay until late evening.

Bruce - Write a list of things to be done and start doing them, even if just one a day. What is your definition of "satisfaction?"Who or what do you want to care about? Name two or three using one or two words each. Who or what do you want to be connected to" Ditto above instructions. What kind of a contribution do you want to make? Ditto How does "feel bad" feel? Sorry, I'm in a curious mood today. Bill

To: ACT_for_the_Public From: onebnz@...Date: Wed, 16 Feb 2011 12:31:19 -0800Subject: Re: Valued LifeThanks for your comments, everyone. I am again staring out the window and trying to accept my feelings of tension, anxiety and fatigue. Accept, accept, accept, I tell myself yet I continue to struggle.

Bill, thanks for the comments that you think I'm close to getting it. That gives me hope. Today is a tough day, as I am home without much to do. I feel kind of like the retiree who struggles to fill his days. Of course, there are infinite things to do and be interested in but nothing seems to satisfy.

I really relate to caring, connection and contribution. Those are values to me. I just don't see enough opportunity for me to apply them. The problem seems to be that I need to be engaged in these values constantly or I immediately feel bad.

thanks,

Bruce

Hi Bruce,

Sorry to hear of your troubles. Here is something that may possibly help. While there are hundreds of different values, and no such thing as ‘right’ or ‘wrong’, almost all values grow from the soil of the big three Cs: caring, connection and contribution. Examine any value, and see if it’s not the case that to some degree it’s about caring (i.e. expressing concern or affection) about someone or something, connecting (i.e. engaging) with someone or something, and contributing (i.e. giving) to someone or something (including yourself of course).

Now I’m going to suggest a different approach than the usual ACT approach; rather than trying to re-organise your day to fill it up with all sorts of values-guided activities or values-guided goals, instead keep doing what you’re doing in terms of activity – but see if you can infuse that activity with one or more of the three Cs, and see what happens. For example,

When you’re staring out the window, can you truly connect with the view; notice the details; turn it into a mindfulness practice; and can you find something out there to care about – the birds or the trees or the weather? Or can you connect with yourself as you look out that window - notice your body and how you are holding it? Can you contribute to yourself in some way as you stare out that window: do some gentle stretching or mindful breathing, or have some meaningful music playing? When you’re surfing the internet, can you find something there to care about or contribute – Just as you contribute to this forum, and your posts reveal some of what you care about? Can you periodically connect with your body amidst the surfing – take a break and stretch etc?

These are just examples; I’m curious to see what you can come up with and what difference it will make to your day to keep bringing those qualities of caring, connection and contribution in to your routine.

All the best,

Cheers,

Russ

www.actmindfully.com.au

www.thehappinesstrap.com

From: ACT_for_the_Public [mailto:ACT_for_the_Public ] On Behalf Of O KisutchSent: Monday, 14 February 2011 8:18 AMTo: ACT_for_the_Public Subject: Re: Valued Life

Bruce,

Sorry to hear about your mood issue. A few comments follow.

In your posts you use the terms "desired effect", "potency", "bounce", "enjoyable", "nothing works for long", "sense of meaning", "makes me feel better", and "feel like I'm doing something valued". These all refer to the goal of a change in mood or achieving a certain feeling. This goal is part and parcel of the other approaches you are trying, but should it be applied to your ACT work?

My understanding is that ACT helps us release our tight grip on the feeling-based preconditions and evaluations which restrict our behavior. And I wonder if you are applying the above preconditions and evaluations--which are part and parcel of the other approaches you are trying--to the ACT processes and in so doing making an error?

I think your post is interesting because it raises a fundamental question for me: what feelings should I pursue, e.g., should I try to have fun, try to experience joy, try to not feel shame, etc.? Should I pursue feelings? Should I do something/or avoid doing something because it makes me feel a certain way?

One answer: do what you value. Another answer: obviously, yes, you should try to have fun, have joy, not feel meaningless. I think ACT gives us a way to try to steer through life where, sometimes, seeking feelings works in terms of living a valued life but, at other times, seeking feelings can really get in the way of a valued life.

There's a kind of everything or nothing in the ACT books I've read with respect to willingness and seeking feeling. I often wonder if it's more rhetorical than actual--just like that chapter in the books that try to get us to admit that all the other solutions we've tried haven't worked. Well, some of those methods probably do work, or could work, given certain conditions etc. But the function of those chapters and the 100% approach to willingness is to achieve the effect of improvement, and that justifies the means. Getting someone to commit wholeheartedly to ACT and dedicate their resources to learning and doing it probably leads to better results, esp. because ACT runs counter to the feeling-orientation of people who suffer from unwanted feelings.

I think the real world is not black and white but color. So, sometimes it's good to have those feeling goals in hand, but it's also good to be able to loosen the grip on them like when you were typing your message below with the sinking, grinding feeling that told you what was going to happen today.

Oki

To: ACT_for_the_Public Sent: Sun, February 13, 2011 9:48:27 AMSubject: Re: Valued Life

Thank you to everyone for your messages this morning. I certainly appreciate the replies and I'm reading the posts with great interest.

I did try Cymbalta a few months ago and that has been fine but has not achieved the desired effect, at least for me. Actually, I have tried various anti-depressants and other medications over the past 12 years. At first, Paxil was quite effective for me but over time it seems that SSRIs have lost their potency. I did feel like a different person when the Paxil was really working. I trust my doctor but I think we are both at a loss of what to try next.

Regarding my values, I'm watching my daughter play basketball this afternoon and I have a 12-Step meeting tonight. Those are both highly valued activities for me and I'll very likely feel better when participating in them. But I can't demand my daughter play basketball all day or that I sit in meetings continually. My values of caring for my family and keeping my job prevent that. Right now, in the morning, I'm sitting here with the sinking, grinding feeling in my gut for no real reason except it's another day. I'm one of those people who gets up every morning looking forward to going to bed again at night. Until I leave for my daughter's game, my activities will be variations on surfing the Internet and staring out the window. It's "zoning out" as defined in the Happiness Trap but it's a lot of my life. I'm one of those people who has tried just about every one of the control strategies Russ mentions in that section of the book and he's right, nothing works for long. Right now, fish oil/Omega 3s, vitamin D and exercise are the factors I'm placing my hopes in. I figure they are good for my health even if they don't improve my mood. Strangely, I get no bounce from exercise. It's like my feel-good endorphins are not working.

I guess my values place being a good dad at the top of the list and being a good husband to my wife. Being self-supporting through my job is also a big one. After that, it kind of drops off. I'm envious of people who can lose themselves in hobbies and causes. I'm nominally involved in several of these but they've lost any sense of real meaning. It's hard to even get myself to watch TV. Reading self-help books that offer some hope is my most enjoyable hobby.

Anyway, thanks for reading this. It does make me feel better that there are people out there who can relate to what I'm going through and that some people are able to get to the other side.

Bruce

Hi Simone, I was thinking along those lines, too. It really sounds like a deeply ingrained depression that Bruce is experiencing, perhaps as a byproduct of anxiety, or in an of itself--they feed off of each other. I lived that way for years before getting back on track with the help of medication. I am grateful that I have a doctor who is anti-meds in general but sees their usefulness in certain individuals and monitors me carefully for unwanted side effects.

Bruce, a few months back, I think you mentioned that you were going to try an anti depressant. How did that go? Do you have a doctor you totally trust in this regard?

Helena

Valued LifeTo: ACT_for_the_Public Date: Friday, 11 February, 2011, 20:16

Part of my problem is that I don't really know what a valued life looks like. I have a full life, if I list all my activities. I'm generally acting on my values. But even so, I have a lot of discretionary time and I don't really know what to do with it. I have a lot of time I'm obligated to be at work or home but no compelling next thing to do. So I struggle with procrastination and meaninglessness. If I just pick something to do, I have a hard time concentrating, sticking with it, and feeling like I'm doing something valued. It seems like this has been going on forever. And everything thing I do to get through this seems like a control activity.Thanks for any thoughts,Bruce

[Guest guest]

How did it feel?

To: ACT_for_the_Public From: onebnz@...Date: Wed, 16 Feb 2011 16:33:46 -0800Subject: Re: Valued Life

And you've inspired me to finish the one project I needed to do today. I was going to wait until tonight, when I felt better... Of course, I'd like to be able to just tackle the project first thing in the morning. But I guess I've got to be happy with just getting it done.

Bruce - Write a list of things to be done and start doing them, even if just one a day. What is your definition of "satisfaction?"Who or what do you want to care about? Name two or three using one or two words each. Who or what do you want to be connected to" Ditto above instructions. What kind of a contribution do you want to make? Ditto How does "feel bad" feel? Sorry, I'm in a curious mood today. Bill

To: ACT_for_the_Public From: onebnz@...Date: Wed, 16 Feb 2011 12:31:19 -0800Subject: Re: Valued LifeThanks for your comments, everyone. I am again staring out the window and trying to accept my feelings of tension, anxiety and fatigue. Accept, accept, accept, I tell myself yet I continue to struggle.

Bill, thanks for the comments that you think I'm close to getting it. That gives me hope. Today is a tough day, as I am home without much to do. I feel kind of like the retiree who struggles to fill his days. Of course, there are infinite things to do and be interested in but nothing seems to satisfy.

I really relate to caring, connection and contribution. Those are values to me. I just don't see enough opportunity for me to apply them. The problem seems to be that I need to be engaged in these values constantly or I immediately feel bad.

thanks,

Bruce

Hi Bruce,

Sorry to hear of your troubles. Here is something that may possibly help. While there are hundreds of different values, and no such thing as ‘right’ or ‘wrong’, almost all values grow from the soil of the big three Cs: caring, connection and contribution. Examine any value, and see if it’s not the case that to some degree it’s about caring (i.e. expressing concern or affection) about someone or something, connecting (i.e. engaging) with someone or something, and contributing (i.e. giving) to someone or something (including yourself of course).

Now I’m going to suggest a different approach than the usual ACT approach; rather than trying to re-organise your day to fill it up with all sorts of values-guided activities or values-guided goals, instead keep doing what you’re doing in terms of activity – but see if you can infuse that activity with one or more of the three Cs, and see what happens. For example,

When you’re staring out the window, can you truly connect with the view; notice the details; turn it into a mindfulness practice; and can you find something out there to care about – the birds or the trees or the weather? Or can you connect with yourself as you look out that window - notice your body and how you are holding it? Can you contribute to yourself in some way as you stare out that window: do some gentle stretching or mindful breathing, or have some meaningful music playing? When you’re surfing the internet, can you find something there to care about or contribute – Just as you contribute to this forum, and your posts reveal some of what you care about? Can you periodically connect with your body amidst the surfing – take a break and stretch etc?

These are just examples; I’m curious to see what you can come up with and what difference it will make to your day to keep bringing those qualities of caring, connection and contribution in to your routine.

All the best,

Cheers,

Russ

www.actmindfully.com.au

www.thehappinesstrap.com

From: ACT_for_the_Public [mailto:ACT_for_the_Public ] On Behalf Of O KisutchSent: Monday, 14 February 2011 8:18 AMTo: ACT_for_the_Public Subject: Re: Valued Life

Bruce,

Sorry to hear about your mood issue. A few comments follow.

In your posts you use the terms "desired effect", "potency", "bounce", "enjoyable", "nothing works for long", "sense of meaning", "makes me feel better", and "feel like I'm doing something valued". These all refer to the goal of a change in mood or achieving a certain feeling. This goal is part and parcel of the other approaches you are trying, but should it be applied to your ACT work?

My understanding is that ACT helps us release our tight grip on the feeling-based preconditions and evaluations which restrict our behavior. And I wonder if you are applying the above preconditions and evaluations--which are part and parcel of the other approaches you are trying--to the ACT processes and in so doing making an error?

I think your post is interesting because it raises a fundamental question for me: what feelings should I pursue, e.g., should I try to have fun, try to experience joy, try to not feel shame, etc.? Should I pursue feelings? Should I do something/or avoid doing something because it makes me feel a certain way?

One answer: do what you value. Another answer: obviously, yes, you should try to have fun, have joy, not feel meaningless. I think ACT gives us a way to try to steer through life where, sometimes, seeking feelings works in terms of living a valued life but, at other times, seeking feelings can really get in the way of a valued life.

There's a kind of everything or nothing in the ACT books I've read with respect to willingness and seeking feeling. I often wonder if it's more rhetorical than actual--just like that chapter in the books that try to get us to admit that all the other solutions we've tried haven't worked. Well, some of those methods probably do work, or could work, given certain conditions etc. But the function of those chapters and the 100% approach to willingness is to achieve the effect of improvement, and that justifies the means. Getting someone to commit wholeheartedly to ACT and dedicate their resources to learning and doing it probably leads to better results, esp. because ACT runs counter to the feeling-orientation of people who suffer from unwanted feelings.

I think the real world is not black and white but color. So, sometimes it's good to have those feeling goals in hand, but it's also good to be able to loosen the grip on them like when you were typing your message below with the sinking, grinding feeling that told you what was going to happen today.

Oki

To: ACT_for_the_Public Sent: Sun, February 13, 2011 9:48:27 AMSubject: Re: Valued Life

Thank you to everyone for your messages this morning. I certainly appreciate the replies and I'm reading the posts with great interest.

I did try Cymbalta a few months ago and that has been fine but has not achieved the desired effect, at least for me. Actually, I have tried various anti-depressants and other medications over the past 12 years. At first, Paxil was quite effective for me but over time it seems that SSRIs have lost their potency. I did feel like a different person when the Paxil was really working. I trust my doctor but I think we are both at a loss of what to try next.

Regarding my values, I'm watching my daughter play basketball this afternoon and I have a 12-Step meeting tonight. Those are both highly valued activities for me and I'll very likely feel better when participating in them. But I can't demand my daughter play basketball all day or that I sit in meetings continually. My values of caring for my family and keeping my job prevent that. Right now, in the morning, I'm sitting here with the sinking, grinding feeling in my gut for no real reason except it's another day. I'm one of those people who gets up every morning looking forward to going to bed again at night. Until I leave for my daughter's game, my activities will be variations on surfing the Internet and staring out the window. It's "zoning out" as defined in the Happiness Trap but it's a lot of my life. I'm one of those people who has tried just about every one of the control strategies Russ mentions in that section of the book and he's right, nothing works for long. Right now, fish oil/Omega 3s, vitamin D and exercise are the factors I'm placing my hopes in. I figure they are good for my health even if they don't improve my mood. Strangely, I get no bounce from exercise. It's like my feel-good endorphins are not working.

I guess my values place being a good dad at the top of the list and being a good husband to my wife. Being self-supporting through my job is also a big one. After that, it kind of drops off. I'm envious of people who can lose themselves in hobbies and causes. I'm nominally involved in several of these but they've lost any sense of real meaning. It's hard to even get myself to watch TV. Reading self-help books that offer some hope is my most enjoyable hobby.

Anyway, thanks for reading this. It does make me feel better that there are people out there who can relate to what I'm going through and that some people are able to get to the other side.

Bruce

Hi Simone, I was thinking along those lines, too. It really sounds like a deeply ingrained depression that Bruce is experiencing, perhaps as a byproduct of anxiety, or in an of itself--they feed off of each other. I lived that way for years before getting back on track with the help of medication. I am grateful that I have a doctor who is anti-meds in general but sees their usefulness in certain individuals and monitors me carefully for unwanted side effects.

Bruce, a few months back, I think you mentioned that you were going to try an anti depressant. How did that go? Do you have a doctor you totally trust in this regard?

Helena

Valued LifeTo: ACT_for_the_Public Date: Friday, 11 February, 2011, 20:16

Part of my problem is that I don't really know what a valued life looks like. I have a full life, if I list all my activities. I'm generally acting on my values. But even so, I have a lot of discretionary time and I don't really know what to do with it. I have a lot of time I'm obligated to be at work or home but no compelling next thing to do. So I struggle with procrastination and meaninglessness. If I just pick something to do, I have a hard time concentrating, sticking with it, and feeling like I'm doing something valued. It seems like this has been going on forever. And everything thing I do to get through this seems like a control activity.Thanks for any thoughts,Bruce

[Guest guest]

>

> Most of the " happy ones " were people who pursued their values

> away from work, for the most part. The truly unhappy ones were

> those who expected " happiness " from some truly crappy jobs,

> supervised by some truly crappy supervisors.

If someone aches for meaningful work, that ache is part of being

human. If someone aches for a meaningful marriage, that ache is

part of being human. In my own life, when I have attempted to avoid

aching out of some notion of being " realistic, " it has led only to

numbness & a sense of diminishment.

I saw the ache for meaningful work up close in my father's life. I

see it in the lives of many others. The poet Bly once wrote

a book, " Iron , " about how men ache for work that has meaning &

that connects rather than separates them from the rest of their

lives.

We dismiss the aches of others to their disadvantage. It may keep

the sting out of our own life, but is that what we are here for?

I am reading another old fuddy duddy at the moment - ph

. In " The Power of Myth, " he tells an anecdote from back

when he was a teacher at Lawrence, of eating out at a local

restaurant one night & witnessing a scene at the next table with a

mother & a father & their son, a boy of about 12. The father tells

the boy to drink his tomato juice; the boy says he doesn't want to.

The father tells him a second time, very loudly. The mother then

says, Don't tell him to do what he doesn't want to do.

continues:

" The father looked at her and said, 'He can't go through life doing

what he wants to do. If he does only what he wants to do, he'll be

dead. I've never done a thing I wanted to in all my life.'

" That's [a] man who never followed his bliss. You may have a

success in life, but then just think of it - what kind of life was

it? What good was it - you've never done the thing you wanted to do

in all your life. I always tell my students, go where your body and

soul want to go. When you have the feeling, then stay with it, and

don't let anyone throw you off. "

I am not saying that someone who finds work bitter & difficult

should not seek purpose elsewhere if they can.

What I am saying is that values are individual, wants are

individual, and the only blanket rule is that there is no blanket

rule. Yes, it helps to be flexible in life, but what actually

emerges as " flexible " is a choice each of us makes for ourselves.

- R.

[Guest guest]

Bill (and list) -

Reading over my post from last night, it comes across as a bit too

mumbo-jumbo for me. So let me be more clear.

The personal context for my response is that for the second time in

six months, I am about to turn down an extension of lucrative

contract work after discovering it doesn't fit my personal values -

specifically, that the work is tied to misleading and/or dangerous

consumer advertising. I won't be out on the street tomorrow for

turning down this work, but it does make things harder for me

economically. It's a strange place to be, all the stranger

because I'm the one who pursued these two assignments thinking

they would work out. I've learned something, I hope.

I could try & bite the bullet - rationalize that since so many

people have crappy jobs, and that even a crappy job is better than

no job, I should hang onto this one. Instead I'm going to

concentrate on a part-time teaching gig I have going and at the

same time look for more suitable full-time work. Yes - work that

maybe even fits my values.

So count me among those who want meaning at work despite the

difficulties in finding or making it. I don't buy a logic that says

that since many people are miserable at work, we should accept

that work is something to be miserable about. We could apply the

same logic to marriage - to having kids - to being human in

general. And it would be faulty there as well.

Look at ACT books like " Life On Purpose " or " Things Might Go

Terribly, Horribly Wrong. " I don't think you'll find any language

in there suggesting that work is a domain to be disregarded.

I just heard a story of a family of Jewish immigrants in New York

City during the 1870s. A bank crash of some sort was tearing up the

economy. The father lost his job and literally abandoned his family

for good - he ran off and was never found. The mother took in

sewing jobs and worked for decades incredibly hard to support

herself and her kids. The kids did some of the sewing too.

Eventually they were all able to go to college.

That mother's job was tougher than anything I've known. She may

have had miserable times. But there was meaning in what she did.

My vote is for hope, not hopelessness - even though at times I feel

hopeless.

-R.

[Guest guest]

Thanks Randy. I was stumped by the post so I deleted it and hoped for further light, which you have provided.

I meant to suggest that people should be reasonable about what they expect from their work and if those expectations aren't being met they should find an alternative, either in the work or the expectations from the work.

I can see how it elicited your response. No need to defend your words.

Bill

> To: ACT_for_the_Public > Date: Thu, 17 Feb 2011 13:46:22 +0000> Subject: Re: Valued Life> > > > Bill (and list) -> > Reading over my post from last night, it comes across as a bit too> mumbo-jumbo for me. So let me be more clear.> > The personal context for my response is that for the second time in> six months, I am about to turn down an extension of lucrative> contract work after discovering it doesn't fit my personal values -> specifically, that the work is tied to misleading and/or dangerous> consumer advertising. I won't be out on the street tomorrow for> turning down this work, but it does make things harder for me> economically. It's a strange place to be, all the stranger> because I'm the one who pursued these two assignments thinking> they would work out. I've learned something, I hope.> > I could try & bite the bullet - rationalize that since so many> people have crappy jobs, and that even a crappy job is better than> no job, I should hang onto this one. Instead I'm going to> concentrate on a part-time teaching gig I have going and at the> same time look for more suitable full-time work. Yes - work that> maybe even fits my values.> > So count me among those who want meaning at work despite the> difficulties in finding or making it. I don't buy a logic that says> that since many people are miserable at work, we should accept> that work is something to be miserable about. We could apply the> same logic to marriage - to having kids - to being human in> general. And it would be faulty there as well.> > Look at ACT books like "Life On Purpose" or "Things Might Go> Terribly, Horribly Wrong." I don't think you'll find any language> in there suggesting that work is a domain to be disregarded.> > I just heard a story of a family of Jewish immigrants in New York> City during the 1870s. A bank crash of some sort was tearing up the> economy. The father lost his job and literally abandoned his family> for good - he ran off and was never found. The mother took in> sewing jobs and worked for decades incredibly hard to support> herself and her kids. The kids did some of the sewing too.> Eventually they were all able to go to college.> > That mother's job was tougher than anything I've known. She may> have had miserable times. But there was meaning in what she did.> > My vote is for hope, not hopelessness - even though at times I feel> hopeless.> > -R. > > > > ------------------------------------> > For other ACT materials and list serves see www.contextualpsychology.org> > If you do not wish to belong to ACT_for_the_Public, you may > unsubscribe by sending an email to > ACT_for_the_Public-unsubscribe@...! Groups Links> > <*> To visit your group on the web, go to:> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/ACT_for_the_Public/> > <*> Your email settings:> Individual Email | Traditional> > <*> To change settings online go to:> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/ACT_for_the_Public/join> (Yahoo! ID required)> > <*> To change settings via email:> ACT_for_the_Public-digest > ACT_for_the_Public-fullfeatured > > <*>

[Guest guest]

Actually, my job is not bad. The people are really nice, it's a job where we help people and it's in line with my values. My boss is a great guy. I do work that is valued. It's just that I have a lot of time to fill. I know some people would really like to have that problem. But it's kind of like people who are salespeople in a not very busy store. I have the common American value that my work should be some kind of career that tells me who I am. I have a really hard time shaking that. We spend so much time trying to get a career early in life that it's hard to admit that my job doesn't add to my identity.But the same fear follows me at home and in the community, too. It's not like solving my career issues would put me on the road to recovery. There is something very deep in me that calls out. I have no idea what it is. It feels like I need to let something go, some idea that is controlling me. I have examined the usual pathways, my childhood, my parents etc. and I believe I have forgiven and accepted there. I do have fleeting moments of feeling OK, even good. Then the despair comes crashing back. I've come to fear that feeling and by now, I've come to expect it. It's invaded situations where I used to feel pretty good. And that's discouraging. I feel like I'm at a point where accepting means accepting always feeling like I do now.I am very tired of how I've been living. I certainly do want to change. I have changed a lot in my life. I guess I'm frustrated that change and time has not healed me.Thanks,BruceHi Bruce - It sounds like you are expecting satisfaction from the place you are unlikely to get it - your job! By the way you describe your work situation, albeit very generally, there is not much hope for the job to yield what you are looking for. That doesn't mean you need to change jobs. It means you need to find an outlet for your time and efforts where you will get the satisfaction you are looking for. Maybe the job needs to be a means to some other end rather than the end itself. I honestly don't know many people whose values are satisfied by their job. And I've had many hundreds of people in my organizations. Most of the "happy ones" were people who pursued their values away from work, for the most part. The truly unhappy ones were those who expected "happiness" from some truly crappy jobs, supervised by some truly crappy supervisors. The quest for the sense of well-being has always been a trap (as in Happiness Trap) for me. I get "it" two or three times a week at the most, usually when I feel I have successfully defused or accepted something. I get it when someone thanks me for a contribution; and when I feel connected to another person, especially when caring. The tight feeling in the stomach is something to be accepted, especially the feelings you have about them. The fatigue in the mind sounds like a symptom of your struggles. I said I think you are close to getting it. I said that because you sound very tired of life the way it has been and are really, really ready for a change. Plus you seem to understand what ACT asks you to do to get it. It's time to get out the hexaflex and the tools in your toolkit and and start using them, in very small but deliberate doses. There will probably not be an epiphany. But you might notice some very small "highs" that you can build on. The first ones might be hard to recognize as they will be the slight absence of struggle. Build on those. Acceptance is a necessary component but not a sufficient component of psychological flexibility - the purpose of ACT. BillTo: ACT_for_the_Public From: onebnz@...Date: Wed, 16 Feb 2011 16:06:40 -0800Subject: Re: Valued LifeHi Bill:Thanks for your reply.I do have a to-do list and I generally get what I need to do done. But I don't get much satisfaction. I guess satisfaction to me is a feeling of well-being, that I've done well.I want to care about my family, my work, and my community. I guess that's kind of stock stuff. I struggle most with work. I just can't seem to get invested in it the way others can.For connection, I'd say the same three things as above.For contribution, I'd like to really contribute my talents and efforts at work. A good deal of the time, I'm "sitting on my hands". The bad feeling is tightness in the stomach and fatigue in the mind. I also have deep avoidance of doing anything. I'm obsessed with these feelings and monitor them constantly. Getting deeply involved or concentrating on something is very difficult.It used to be that these feelings were more intense but only lasted part of the day. Now they're more diffuse but they come on early in the day and stay until late evening. Bruce - Write a list of things to be done and start doing them, even if just one a day. What is your definition of "satisfaction?"Who or what do you want to care about? Name two or three using one or two words each. Who or what do you want to be connected to" Ditto above instructions. What kind of a contribution do you want to make? Ditto How does "feel bad" feel? Sorry, I'm in a curious mood today. Bill To: ACT_for_the_Public From: onebnz@...Date: Wed, 16 Feb 2011 12:31:19 -0800Subject: Re: Valued LifeThanks for your comments, everyone. I am again staring out the window and trying to accept my feelings of tension, anxiety and fatigue. Accept, accept, accept, I tell myself yet I continue to struggle.Bill, thanks for the comments that you think I'm close to getting it. That gives me hope. Today is a tough day, as I am home without much to do. I feel kind of like the retiree who struggles to fill his days. Of course, there are infinite things to do and be interested in but nothing seems to satisfy.I really relate to caring, connection and contribution. Those are values to me. I just don't see enough opportunity for me to apply them. The problem seems to be that I need to be engaged in these values constantly or I immediately feel bad.thanks,BruceHi Bruce,Sorry to hear of your troubles. Here is something that may possibly help. While there are hundreds of different values, and no such thing as ‘right’ or ‘wrong’, almost all values grow from the soil of the big three Cs: caring, connection and contribution. Examine any value, and see if it’s not the case that to some degree it’s about caring (i.e. expressing concern or affection) about someone or something, connecting (i.e. engaging) with someone or something, and contributing (i.e. giving) to someone or something (including yourself of course).Now I’m going to suggest a different approach than the usual ACT approach; rather than trying to re-organise your day to fill it up with all sorts of values-guided activities or values-guided goals, instead keep doing what you’re doing in terms of activity – but see if you can infuse that activity with one or more of the three Cs, and see what happens. For example, When you’re staring out the window, can you truly connect with the view; notice the details; turn it into a mindfulness practice; and can you find something out there to care about – the birds or the trees or the weather? Or can you connect with yourself as you look out that window - notice your body and how you are holding it? Can you contribute to yourself in some way as you stare out that window: do some gentle stretching or mindful breathing, or have some meaningful music playing? When you’re surfing the internet, can you find something there to care about or contribute – Just as you contribute to this forum, and your posts reveal some of what you care about? Can you periodically connect with your body amidst the surfing – take a break and stretch etc?These are just examples; I’m curious to see what you can come up with and what difference it will make to your day to keep bringing those qualities of caring, connection and contribution in to your routine. All the best,Cheers,Russ www.actmindfully.com.auwww.thehappinesstrap.com From: ACT_for_the_Public [mailto:ACT_for_the_Public ] On Behalf Of O KisutchSent: Monday, 14 February 2011 8:18 AMTo: ACT_for_the_Public Subject: Re: Valued Life Bruce, Sorry to hear about your mood issue. A few comments follow. In your posts you use the terms "desired effect", "potency", "bounce", "enjoyable", "nothing works for long", "sense of meaning", "makes me feel better", and "feel like I'm doing something valued". These all refer to the goal of a change in mood or achieving a certain feeling. This goal is part and parcel of the other approaches you are trying, but should it be applied to your ACT work? My understanding is that ACT helps us release our tight grip on the feeling-based preconditions and evaluations which restrict our behavior. And I wonder if you are applying the above preconditions and evaluations--which are part and parcel of the other approaches you are trying--to the ACT processes and in so doing making an error? I think your post is interesting because it raises a fundamental question for me: what feelings should I pursue, e.g., should I try to have fun, try to experience joy, try to not feel shame, etc.? Should I pursue feelings? Should I do something/or avoid doing something because it makes me feel a certain way? One answer: do what you value. Another answer: obviously, yes, you should try to have fun, have joy, not feel meaningless. I think ACT gives us a way to try to steer through life where, sometimes, seeking feelings works in terms of living a valued life but, at other times, seeking feelings can really get in the way of a valued life. There's a kind of everything or nothing in the ACT books I've read with respect to willingness and seeking feeling. I often wonder if it's more rhetorical than actual--just like that chapter in the books that try to get us to admit that all the other solutions we've tried haven't worked. Well, some of those methods probably do work, or could work, given certain conditions etc. But the function of those chapters and the 100% approach to willingness is to achieve the effect of improvement, and that justifies the means. Getting someone to commit wholeheartedly to ACT and dedicate their resources to learning and doing it probably leads to better results, esp. because ACT runs counter to the feeling-orientation of people who suffer from unwanted feelings. I think the real world is not black and white but color. So, sometimes it's good to have those feeling goals in hand, but it's also good to be able to loosen the grip on them like when you were typing your message below with the sinking, grinding feeling that told you what was going to happen today. Oki To: ACT_for_the_Public Sent: Sun, February 13, 2011 9:48:27 AMSubject: Re: Valued Life Thank you to everyone for your messages this morning. I certainly appreciate the replies and I'm reading the posts with great interest. I did try Cymbalta a few months ago and that has been fine but has not achieved the desired effect, at least for me. Actually, I have tried various anti-depressants and other medications over the past 12 years. At first, Paxil was quite effective for me but over time it seems that SSRIs have lost their potency. I did feel like a different person when the Paxil was really working. I trust my doctor but I think we are both at a loss of what to try next. Regarding my values, I'm watching my daughter play basketball this afternoon and I have a 12-Step meeting tonight. Those are both highly valued activities for me and I'll very likely feel better when participating in them. But I can't demand my daughter play basketball all day or that I sit in meetings continually. My values of caring for my family and keeping my job prevent that. Right now, in the morning, I'm sitting here with the sinking, grinding feeling in my gut for no real reason except it's another day. I'm one of those people who gets up every morning looking forward to going to bed again at night. Until I leave for my daughter's game, my activities will be variations on surfing the Internet and staring out the window. It's "zoning out" as defined in the Happiness Trap but it's a lot of my life. I'm one of those people who has tried just about every one of the control strategies Russ mentions in that section of the book and he's right, nothing works for long. Right now, fish oil/Omega 3s, vitamin D and exercise are the factors I'm placing my hopes in. I figure they are good for my health even if they don't improve my mood. Strangely, I get no bounce from exercise. It's like my feel-good endorphins are not working. I guess my values place being a good dad at the top of the list and being a good husband to my wife. Being self-supporting through my job is also a big one. After that, it kind of drops off. I'm envious of people who can lose themselves in hobbies and causes. I'm nominally involved in several of these but they've lost any sense of real meaning. It's hard to even get myself to watch TV. Reading self-help books that offer some hope is my most enjoyable hobby. Anyway, thanks for reading this. It does make me feel better that there are people out there who can relate to what I'm going through and that some people are able to get to the other side. Bruce Hi Simone, I was thinking along those lines, too. It really sounds like a deeply ingrained depression that Bruce is experiencing, perhaps as a byproduct of anxiety, or in an of itself--they feed off of each other. I lived that way for years before getting back on track with the help of medication. I am grateful that I have a doctor who is anti-meds in general but sees their usefulness in certain individuals and monitors me carefully for unwanted side effects. Bruce, a few months back, I think you mentioned that you were going to try an anti depressant. How did that go? Do you have a doctor you totally trust in this regard? Helena Valued LifeTo: ACT_for_the_Public Date: Friday, 11 February, 2011, 20:16 Part of my problem is that I don't really know what a valued life looks like. I have a full life, if I list all my activities. I'm generally acting on my values. But even so, I have a lot of discretionary time and I don't really know what to do with it. I have a lot of time I'm obligated to be at work or home but no compelling next thing to do. So I struggle with procrastination and meaninglessness. If I just pick something to do, I have a hard time concentrating, sticking with it, and feeling like I'm doing something valued. It seems like this has been going on forever. And everything thing I do to get through this seems like a control activity.Thanks for any thoughts,Bruce

[Guest guest]

Hi Bruce - OK, so along the lines of the uninvited guest metaphor - The aunt shows up to an already unfulfilling party so even if you do accept her presence, the party is not much fun. Something about your posts makes me want to keep pushing on the values component of ACT. Here's a recent article by Forsythe http://www.psychologytoday.com/blog/peace-mind/201011/creating-life-purpose who wrote Your Life On Purpose, which I highly recommend. Maybe it will help.

I'm not saying that you can simply "value and committed action" your way out of your funk. But I'm pretty sure that those two ACT core processes are essential to getting out. The other four are there if you need them and will enhance the experience of living a valued life.

Are you a curious person? Can you nurture your curiosity to help you look for outlets for your passion and energy?

This list has many people who have the same "complaint" as you do. Several have told small success stories of getting moving. Several have told of the effect of sustaining these small steps.

I feel woefully inadequate to help you as the stuff I am offering is not new and not exciting, in and of itself.

Bill

Oh. One more question. What would you do if you found out that "accepting means accepting always feeling like I do now"? (You words.) Would you keep struggling with "it." I have not found anything that assures that acceptance will change anything, in and of itself. Maybe "it" doesn't seem final enough to really accept without any negotiation and with time to negotiate. What if it was the diagnosis of a terminal illness but with no expected time frame. Sorry for the blunt questions but these may be the kind of questions that lie between you and "truly getting it."

To: ACT_for_the_Public From: onebnz@...Date: Thu, 17 Feb 2011 10:36:05 -0800Subject: Re: Valued Life

Actually, my job is not bad. The people are really nice, it's a job where we help people and it's in line with my values. My boss is a great guy. I do work that is valued. It's just that I have a lot of time to fill. I know some people would really like to have that problem. But it's kind of like people who are salespeople in a not very busy store. I have the common American value that my work should be some kind of career that tells me who I am. I have a really hard time shaking that. We spend so much time trying to get a career early in life that it's hard to admit that my job doesn't add to my identity.

But the same fear follows me at home and in the community, too. It's not like solving my career issues would put me on the road to recovery. There is something very deep in me that calls out. I have no idea what it is. It feels like I need to let something go, some idea that is controlling me. I have examined the usual pathways, my childhood, my parents etc. and I believe I have forgiven and accepted there.

I do have fleeting moments of feeling OK, even good. Then the despair comes crashing back. I've come to fear that feeling and by now, I've come to expect it. It's invaded situations where I used to feel pretty good. And that's discouraging. I feel like I'm at a point where accepting means accepting always feeling like I do now.

I am very tired of how I've been living. I certainly do want to change. I have changed a lot in my life. I guess I'm frustrated that change and time has not healed me.

Thanks,

Bruce

Hi Bruce - It sounds like you are expecting satisfaction from the place you are unlikely to get it - your job! By the way you describe your work situation, albeit very generally, there is not much hope for the job to yield what you are looking for. That doesn't mean you need to change jobs. It means you need to find an outlet for your time and efforts where you will get the satisfaction you are looking for. Maybe the job needs to be a means to some other end rather than the end itself. I honestly don't know many people whose values are satisfied by their job. And I've had many hundreds of people in my organizations. Most of the "happy ones" were people who pursued their values away from work, for the most part. The truly unhappy ones were those who expected "happiness" from some truly crappy jobs, supervised by some truly crappy supervisors. The quest for the sense of well-being has always been a trap (as in Happiness Trap) for me. I get "it" two or three times a week at the most, usually when I feel I have successfully defused or accepted something. I get it when someone thanks me for a contribution; and when I feel connected to another person, especially when caring. The tight feeling in the stomach is something to be accepted, especially the feelings you have about them. The fatigue in the mind sounds like a symptom of your struggles. I said I think you are close to getting it. I said that because you sound very tired of life the way it has been and are really, really ready for a change. Plus you seem to understand what ACT asks you to do to get it. It's time to get out the hexaflex and the tools in your toolkit and and start using them, in very small but deliberate doses. There will probably not be an epiphany. But you might notice some very small "highs" that you can build on. The first ones might be hard to recognize as they will be the slight absence of struggle. Build on those. Acceptance is a necessary component but not a sufficient component of psychological flexibility - the purpose of ACT. Bill

To: ACT_for_the_Public From: onebnz@...Date: Wed, 16 Feb 2011 16:06:40 -0800Subject: Re: Valued LifeHi Bill:

Thanks for your reply.

I do have a to-do list and I generally get what I need to do done. But I don't get much satisfaction. I guess satisfaction to me is a feeling of well-being, that I've done well.

I want to care about my family, my work, and my community. I guess that's kind of stock stuff. I struggle most with work. I just can't seem to get invested in it the way others can.

For connection, I'd say the same three things as above.

For contribution, I'd like to really contribute my talents and efforts at work. A good deal of the time, I'm "sitting on my hands".

The bad feeling is tightness in the stomach and fatigue in the mind. I also have deep avoidance of doing anything. I'm obsessed with these feelings and monitor them constantly. Getting deeply involved or concentrating on something is very difficult.

It used to be that these feelings were more intense but only lasted part of the day. Now they're more diffuse but they come on early in the day and stay until late evening.

Bruce - Write a list of things to be done and start doing them, even if just one a day. What is your definition of "satisfaction?"Who or what do you want to care about? Name two or three using one or two words each. Who or what do you want to be connected to" Ditto above instructions. What kind of a contribution do you want to make? Ditto How does "feel bad" feel? Sorry, I'm in a curious mood today. Bill

To: ACT_for_the_Public From: onebnz@...Date: Wed, 16 Feb 2011 12:31:19 -0800Subject: Re: Valued LifeThanks for your comments, everyone. I am again staring out the window and trying to accept my feelings of tension, anxiety and fatigue. Accept, accept, accept, I tell myself yet I continue to struggle.

Bill, thanks for the comments that you think I'm close to getting it. That gives me hope. Today is a tough day, as I am home without much to do. I feel kind of like the retiree who struggles to fill his days. Of course, there are infinite things to do and be interested in but nothing seems to satisfy.

I really relate to caring, connection and contribution. Those are values to me. I just don't see enough opportunity for me to apply them. The problem seems to be that I need to be engaged in these values constantly or I immediately feel bad.

thanks,

Bruce

Hi Bruce,

Sorry to hear of your troubles. Here is something that may possibly help. While there are hundreds of different values, and no such thing as ‘right’ or ‘wrong’, almost all values grow from the soil of the big three Cs: caring, connection and contribution. Examine any value, and see if it’s not the case that to some degree it’s about caring (i.e. expressing concern or affection) about someone or something, connecting (i.e. engaging) with someone or something, and contributing (i.e. giving) to someone or something (including yourself of course).

Now I’m going to suggest a different approach than the usual ACT approach; rather than trying to re-organise your day to fill it up with all sorts of values-guided activities or values-guided goals, instead keep doing what you’re doing in terms of activity – but see if you can infuse that activity with one or more of the three Cs, and see what happens. For example,

When you’re staring out the window, can you truly connect with the view; notice the details; turn it into a mindfulness practice; and can you find something out there to care about – the birds or the trees or the weather? Or can you connect with yourself as you look out that window - notice your body and how you are holding it? Can you contribute to yourself in some way as you stare out that window: do some gentle stretching or mindful breathing, or have some meaningful music playing? When you’re surfing the internet, can you find something there to care about or contribute – Just as you contribute to this forum, and your posts reveal some of what you care about? Can you periodically connect with your body amidst the surfing – take a break and stretch etc?

These are just examples; I’m curious to see what you can come up with and what difference it will make to your day to keep bringing those qualities of caring, connection and contribution in to your routine.

All the best,

Cheers,

Russ

www.actmindfully.com.au

www.thehappinesstrap.com

From: ACT_for_the_Public [mailto:ACT_for_the_Public ] On Behalf Of O KisutchSent: Monday, 14 February 2011 8:18 AMTo: ACT_for_the_Public Subject: Re: Valued Life

Bruce,

Sorry to hear about your mood issue. A few comments follow.

In your posts you use the terms "desired effect", "potency", "bounce", "enjoyable", "nothing works for long", "sense of meaning", "makes me feel better", and "feel like I'm doing something valued". These all refer to the goal of a change in mood or achieving a certain feeling. This goal is part and parcel of the other approaches you are trying, but should it be applied to your ACT work?

My understanding is that ACT helps us release our tight grip on the feeling-based preconditions and evaluations which restrict our behavior. And I wonder if you are applying the above preconditions and evaluations--which are part and parcel of the other approaches you are trying--to the ACT processes and in so doing making an error?

I think your post is interesting because it raises a fundamental question for me: what feelings should I pursue, e.g., should I try to have fun, try to experience joy, try to not feel shame, etc.? Should I pursue feelings? Should I do something/or avoid doing something because it makes me feel a certain way?

One answer: do what you value. Another answer: obviously, yes, you should try to have fun, have joy, not feel meaningless. I think ACT gives us a way to try to steer through life where, sometimes, seeking feelings works in terms of living a valued life but, at other times, seeking feelings can really get in the way of a valued life.

There's a kind of everything or nothing in the ACT books I've read with respect to willingness and seeking feeling. I often wonder if it's more rhetorical than actual--just like that chapter in the books that try to get us to admit that all the other solutions we've tried haven't worked. Well, some of those methods probably do work, or could work, given certain conditions etc. But the function of those chapters and the 100% approach to willingness is to achieve the effect of improvement, and that justifies the means. Getting someone to commit wholeheartedly to ACT and dedicate their resources to learning and doing it probably leads to better results, esp. because ACT runs counter to the feeling-orientation of people who suffer from unwanted feelings.

I think the real world is not black and white but color. So, sometimes it's good to have those feeling goals in hand, but it's also good to be able to loosen the grip on them like when you were typing your message below with the sinking, grinding feeling that told you what was going to happen today.

Oki

To: ACT_for_the_Public Sent: Sun, February 13, 2011 9:48:27 AMSubject: Re: Valued Life

Thank you to everyone for your messages this morning. I certainly appreciate the replies and I'm reading the posts with great interest.

I did try Cymbalta a few months ago and that has been fine but has not achieved the desired effect, at least for me. Actually, I have tried various anti-depressants and other medications over the past 12 years. At first, Paxil was quite effective for me but over time it seems that SSRIs have lost their potency. I did feel like a different person when the Paxil was really working. I trust my doctor but I think we are both at a loss of what to try next.

Regarding my values, I'm watching my daughter play basketball this afternoon and I have a 12-Step meeting tonight. Those are both highly valued activities for me and I'll very likely feel better when participating in them. But I can't demand my daughter play basketball all day or that I sit in meetings continually. My values of caring for my family and keeping my job prevent that. Right now, in the morning, I'm sitting here with the sinking, grinding feeling in my gut for no real reason except it's another day. I'm one of those people who gets up every morning looking forward to going to bed again at night. Until I leave for my daughter's game, my activities will be variations on surfing the Internet and staring out the window. It's "zoning out" as defined in the Happiness Trap but it's a lot of my life. I'm one of those people who has tried just about every one of the control strategies Russ mentions in that section of the book and he's right, nothing works for long. Right now, fish oil/Omega 3s, vitamin D and exercise are the factors I'm placing my hopes in. I figure they are good for my health even if they don't improve my mood. Strangely, I get no bounce from exercise. It's like my feel-good endorphins are not working.

I guess my values place being a good dad at the top of the list and being a good husband to my wife. Being self-supporting through my job is also a big one. After that, it kind of drops off. I'm envious of people who can lose themselves in hobbies and causes. I'm nominally involved in several of these but they've lost any sense of real meaning. It's hard to even get myself to watch TV. Reading self-help books that offer some hope is my most enjoyable hobby.

Anyway, thanks for reading this. It does make me feel better that there are people out there who can relate to what I'm going through and that some people are able to get to the other side.

Bruce

Hi Simone, I was thinking along those lines, too. It really sounds like a deeply ingrained depression that Bruce is experiencing, perhaps as a byproduct of anxiety, or in an of itself--they feed off of each other. I lived that way for years before getting back on track with the help of medication. I am grateful that I have a doctor who is anti-meds in general but sees their usefulness in certain individuals and monitors me carefully for unwanted side effects.

Bruce, a few months back, I think you mentioned that you were going to try an anti depressant. How did that go? Do you have a doctor you totally trust in this regard?

Helena

Valued LifeTo: ACT_for_the_Public Date: Friday, 11 February, 2011, 20:16

Part of my problem is that I don't really know what a valued life looks like. I have a full life, if I list all my activities. I'm generally acting on my values. But even so, I have a lot of discretionary time and I don't really know what to do with it. I have a lot of time I'm obligated to be at work or home but no compelling next thing to do. So I struggle with procrastination and meaninglessness. If I just pick something to do, I have a hard time concentrating, sticking with it, and feeling like I'm doing something valued. It seems like this has been going on forever. And everything thing I do to get through this seems like a control activity.Thanks for any thoughts,Bruce

[Guest guest]

Hi Guys, I've been following this thread with interest - many of the

things you have discussed about work are topical for me right now.

I've relocated from a with few work opportunities to a place with an

overwhelming range of opportunities.

Anyhow, thanks for your posts. This Forsyth article looks useful.

Grant

>

> Hi Bruce - OK, so along the lines of the uninvited guest metaphor - The aunt

> shows up to an already unfulfilling party so even if you do accept her

> presence, the party is not much fun. Something about your posts makes me

> want to keep pushing on the values component of ACT. Here's a recent article

> by Forsythe

> http://www.psychologytoday.com/blog/peace-mind/201011/creating-life-purpose

> who wrote Your Life On Purpose, which I highly recommend. Maybe it will

> help.

>

> I'm not saying that you can simply " value and committed action " your way out

> of your funk. But I'm pretty sure that those two ACT core processes are

> essential to getting out. The other four are there if you need them and will

> enhance the experience of living a valued life.

>

> Are you a curious person? Can you nurture your curiosity to help you look

> for outlets for your passion and energy?

>

> This list has many people who have the same " complaint " as you do. Several

> have told small success stories of getting moving. Several have told of the

> effect of sustaining these small steps.

>

> I feel woefully inadequate to help you as the stuff I am offering is not new

> and not exciting, in and of itself.

>

> Bill

>

> Oh. One more question. What would you do if you found out that " accepting

> means accepting always feeling like I do now " ? (You words.) Would you keep

> struggling with " it. " I have not found anything that assures that acceptance

> will change anything, in and of itself. Maybe " it " doesn't seem final enough

> to really accept without any negotiation and with time to negotiate. What if

> it was the diagnosis of a terminal illness but with no expected time frame.

> Sorry for the blunt questions but these may be the kind of questions that

> lie between you and " truly getting it. "

>

>

>

>

> To: ACT_for_the_Public

> From: onebnz@...

> Date: Thu, 17 Feb 2011 10:36:05 -0800

> Subject: Re: Valued Life

>

>

>

>

>

>

> Actually, my job is not bad. The people are really nice, it's a job where we

> help people and it's in line with my values. My boss is a great guy. I do

> work that is valued. It's just that I have a lot of time to fill. I know

> some people would really like to have that problem. But it's kind of like

> people who are salespeople in a not very busy store. I have the common

> American value that my work should be some kind of career that tells me who

> I am. I have a really hard time shaking that. We spend so much time trying

> to get a career early in life that it's hard to admit that my job doesn't

> add to my identity.

>

>

> But the same fear follows me at home and in the community, too. It's not

> like solving my career issues would put me on the road to recovery. There is

> something very deep in me that calls out. I have no idea what it is. It

> feels like I need to let something go, some idea that is controlling me. I

> have examined the usual pathways, my childhood, my parents etc. and I

> believe I have forgiven and accepted there.

>

>

> I do have fleeting moments of feeling OK, even good. Then the despair comes

> crashing back. I've come to fear that feeling and by now, I've come to

> expect it. It's invaded situations where I used to feel pretty good. And

> that's discouraging. I feel like I'm at a point where accepting means

> accepting always feeling like I do now.

>

>

> I am very tired of how I've been living. I certainly do want to change. I

> have changed a lot in my life. I guess I'm frustrated that change and time

> has not healed me.

>

>

> Thanks,

> Bruce

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

> Hi Bruce - It sounds like you are expecting satisfaction from the place you

> are unlikely to get it - your job! By the way you describe your work

> situation, albeit very generally, there is not much hope for the job to

> yield what you are looking for. That doesn't mean you need to change jobs.

> It means you need to find an outlet for your time and efforts where you will

> get the satisfaction you are looking for. Maybe the job needs to be a means

> to some other end rather than the end itself. I honestly don't know many

> people whose values are satisfied by their job. And I've had many hundreds

> of people in my organizations. Most of the " happy ones " were people who

> pursued their values away from work, for the most part. The truly unhappy

> ones were those who expected " happiness " from some truly crappy jobs,

> supervised by some truly crappy supervisors. The quest for the sense of

> well-being has always been a trap (as in Happiness Trap) for me. I get " it "

> two or three times a week at the most, usually when I feel I have

> successfully defused or accepted something. I get it when someone thanks me

> for a contribution; and when I feel connected to another person, especially

> when caring. The tight feeling in the stomach is something to be accepted,

> especially the feelings you have about them. The fatigue in the mind sounds

> like a symptom of your struggles. I said I think you are close to getting

> it. I said that because you sound very tired of life the way it has been and

> are really, really ready for a change. Plus you seem to understand what ACT

> asks you to do to get it. It's time to get out the hexaflex and the tools in

> your toolkit and and start using them, in very small but deliberate doses.

> There will probably not be an epiphany. But you might notice some very small

> " highs " that you can build on. The first ones might be hard to recognize as

> they will be the slight absence of struggle. Build on those. Acceptance is a

> necessary component but not a sufficient component of psychological

> flexibility - the purpose of ACT. Bill

>

> To: ACT_for_the_Public@...: onebnz@...: Wed, 16

> Feb 2011 16:06:40 -0800Subject: Re: Valued LifeHi Bill:

>

> Thanks for your reply.

>

> I do have a to-do list and I generally get what I need to do done. But I

> don't get much satisfaction. I guess satisfaction to me is a feeling of

> well-being, that I've done well.

>

> I want to care about my family, my work, and my community. I guess that's

> kind of stock stuff. I struggle most with work. I just can't seem to get

> invested in it the way others can.

>

> For connection, I'd say the same three things as above.

>

> For contribution, I'd like to really contribute my talents and efforts at

> work. A good deal of the time, I'm " sitting on my hands " .

>

> The bad feeling is tightness in the stomach and fatigue in the mind. I also

> have deep avoidance of doing anything. I'm obsessed with these feelings and

> monitor them constantly. Getting deeply involved or concentrating on

> something is very difficult.

>

> It used to be that these feelings were more intense but only lasted part of

> the day. Now they're more diffuse but they come on early in the day and stay

> until late evening.

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

> Bruce - Write a list of things to be done and start doing them, even if

> just one a day. What is your definition of " satisfaction? " Who or what do you

> want to care about? Name two or three using one or two words each. Who or

> what do you want to be connected to " Ditto above instructions. What kind of

> a contribution do you want to make? Ditto How does " feel bad " feel? Sorry,

> I'm in a curious mood today. Bill

>

> To: ACT_for_the_Public@...: onebnz@...: Wed, 16

> Feb 2011 12:31:19 -0800Subject: Re: Valued LifeThanks

> for your comments, everyone. I am again staring out the window and trying to

> accept my feelings of tension, anxiety and fatigue. Accept, accept, accept,

> I tell myself yet I continue to struggle.

>

> Bill, thanks for the comments that you think I'm close to getting it. That

> gives me hope. Today is a tough day, as I am home without much to do. I feel

> kind of like the retiree who struggles to fill his days. Of course, there

> are infinite things to do and be interested in but nothing seems to satisfy.

>

> I really relate to caring, connection and contribution. Those are values to

> me. I just don't see enough opportunity for me to apply them. The problem

> seems to be that I need to be engaged in these values constantly or I

> immediately feel bad.

>

> thanks,

> Bruce

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

> Hi Bruce,

> Sorry to hear of your troubles. Here is something that may possibly help.

> While there are hundreds of different values, and no such thing as ‘right’

> or ‘wrong’, almost all values grow from the soil of the big three Cs:

> caring, connection and contribution. Examine any value, and see if it’s not

> the case that to some degree it’s about caring (i.e. expressing concern or

> affection) about someone or something, connecting (i.e. engaging) with

> someone or something, and contributing (i.e. giving) to someone or something

> (including yourself of course).

> Now I’m going to suggest a different approach than the usual ACT approach;

> rather than trying to re-organise your day to fill it up with all sorts of

> values-guided activities or values-guided goals, instead keep doing what

> you’re doing in terms of activity – but see if you can infuse that activity

> with one or more of the three Cs, and see what happens. For example,

>

> When you’re staring out the window, can you truly connect with the view;

> notice the details; turn it into a mindfulness practice; and can you find

> something out there to care about – the birds or the trees or the weather?

> Or can you connect with yourself as you look out that window - notice your

> body and how you are holding it? Can you contribute to yourself in some way

> as you stare out that window: do some gentle stretching or mindful

> breathing, or have some meaningful music playing? When you’re surfing the

> internet, can you find something there to care about or contribute – Just as

> you contribute to this forum, and your posts reveal some of what you care

> about? Can you periodically connect with your body amidst the surfing – take

> a break and stretch etc?

> These are just examples; I’m curious to see what you can come up with and

> what difference it will make to your day to keep bringing those qualities of

> caring, connection and contribution in to your routine.

>

>

> All the best,

> Cheers,

> Russ

>

> www.actmindfully.com.au

> www.thehappinesstrap.com

>

>

>

> From: ACT_for_the_Public

> [mailto:ACT_for_the_Public ] On Behalf Of O KisutchSent:

> Monday, 14 February 2011 8:18 AMTo:

> ACT_for_the_Public@...: Re: Valued

> Life

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

> Bruce,

>

>

>

> Sorry to hear about your mood issue. A few comments follow.

>

>

>

> In your posts you use the terms " desired effect " , " potency " , " bounce " ,

> " enjoyable " , " nothing works for long " , " sense of meaning " , " makes me feel

> better " , and " feel like I'm doing something valued " . These all refer to the

> goal of a change in mood or achieving a certain feeling. This goal is part

> and parcel of the other approaches you are trying, but should it be applied

> to your ACT work?

>

>

>

> My understanding is that ACT helps us release our tight grip on the

> feeling-based preconditions and evaluations which restrict our behavior. And

> I wonder if you are applying the above preconditions and evaluations--which

> are part and parcel of the other approaches you are trying--to the ACT

> processes and in so doing making an error?

>

>

>

> I think your post is interesting because it raises a fundamental question

> for me: what feelings should I pursue, e.g., should I try to have fun, try

> to experience joy, try to not feel shame, etc.? Should I pursue feelings?

> Should I do something/or avoid doing something because it makes me feel a

> certain way?

>

>

>

> One answer: do what you value. Another answer: obviously, yes, you should

> try to have fun, have joy, not feel meaningless. I think ACT gives us a way

> to try to steer through life where, sometimes, seeking feelings works in

> terms of living a valued life but, at other times, seeking feelings can

> really get in the way of a valued life.

>

>

>

> There's a kind of everything or nothing in the ACT books I've read with

> respect to willingness and seeking feeling. I often wonder if it's more

> rhetorical than actual--just like that chapter in the books that try to get

> us to admit that all the other solutions we've tried haven't worked. Well,

> some of those methods probably do work, or could work, given certain

> conditions etc. But the function of those chapters and the 100% approach to

> willingness is to achieve the effect of improvement, and that justifies the

> means. Getting someone to commit wholeheartedly to ACT and dedicate their

> resources to learning and doing it probably leads to better results, esp.

> because ACT runs counter to the feeling-orientation of people who suffer

> from unwanted feelings.

>

>

>

> I think the real world is not black and white but color. So, sometimes it's

> good to have those feeling goals in hand, but it's also good to be able to

> loosen the grip on them like when you were typing your message below with

> the sinking, grinding feeling that told you what was going to happen today.

>

>

>

>

> Oki

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

> To:

> ACT_for_the_Public@...: Sun, February 13, 2011 9:48:27

> AMSubject: Re: Valued Life

>

> Thank you to everyone for your messages this morning. I certainly appreciate

> the replies and I'm reading the posts with great interest.

>

>

>

> I did try Cymbalta a few months ago and that has been fine but has not

> achieved the desired effect, at least for me. Actually, I have tried various

> anti-depressants and other medications over the past 12 years. At first,

> Paxil was quite effective for me but over time it seems that SSRIs have lost

> their potency. I did feel like a different person when the Paxil was really

> working. I trust my doctor but I think we are both at a loss of what to try

> next.

>

>

>

> Regarding my values, I'm watching my daughter play basketball this afternoon

> and I have a 12-Step meeting tonight. Those are both highly valued

> activities for me and I'll very likely feel better when participating in

> them. But I can't demand my daughter play basketball all day or that I sit

> in meetings continually. My values of caring for my family and keeping my

> job prevent that. Right now, in the morning, I'm sitting here with the

> sinking, grinding feeling in my gut for no real reason except it's another

> day. I'm one of those people who gets up every morning looking forward to

> going to bed again at night. Until I leave for my daughter's game, my

> activities will be variations on surfing the Internet and staring out the

> window. It's " zoning out " as defined in the Happiness Trap but it's a lot of

> my life. I'm one of those people who has tried just about every one of the

> control strategies Russ mentions in that section of the book and he's right,

> nothing works for long. Right now, fish oil/Omega 3s, vitamin D and exercise

> are the factors I'm placing my hopes in. I figure they are good for my

> health even if they don't improve my mood. Strangely, I get no bounce from

> exercise. It's like my feel-good endorphins are not working.

>

>

>

> I guess my values place being a good dad at the top of the list and being a

> good husband to my wife. Being self-supporting through my job is also a big

> one. After that, it kind of drops off. I'm envious of people who can lose

> themselves in hobbies and causes. I'm nominally involved in several of these

> but they've lost any sense of real meaning. It's hard to even get myself to

> watch TV. Reading self-help books that offer some hope is my most enjoyable

> hobby.

>

>

>

> Anyway, thanks for reading this. It does make me feel better that there are

> people out there who can relate to what I'm going through and that some

> people are able to get to the other side.

>

>

>

> Bruce

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

> Hi Simone, I was thinking along those lines, too. It really sounds like a

> deeply ingrained depression that Bruce is experiencing, perhaps as a

> byproduct of anxiety, or in an of itself--they feed off of each other. I

> lived that way for years before getting back on track with the help of

> medication. I am grateful that I have a doctor who is anti-meds in general

> but sees their usefulness in certain individuals and monitors me carefully

> for unwanted side effects.

>

>

> Bruce, a few months back, I think you mentioned that you were going to try

> an anti depressant. How did that go? Do you have a doctor you totally

> trust in this regard?

>

>

> Helena

> Valued

> LifeTo: ACT_for_the_Public@...: Friday, 11 February, 2011,

> 20:16

>

>

>

>

> Part of my problem is that I don't really know what a valued life looks

> like. I have a full life, if I list all my activities. I'm generally acting

> on my values. But even so, I have a lot of discretionary time and I don't

> really know what to do with it. I have a lot of time I'm obligated to be at

> work or home but no compelling next thing to do. So I struggle with

> procrastination and meaninglessness. If I just pick something to do, I have

> a hard time concentrating, sticking with it, and feeling like I'm doing

> something valued. It seems like this has been going on forever. And

> everything thing I do to get through this seems like a control

> activity.Thanks for any thoughts,Bruce

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

[Guest guest]

>

> Accepting that I'll always feel like I feel now is tough.

> Really tough. I understand that people accept things that are

> much worse and maybe I will have to.

Bruce,

I might suggest a slight twist on acceptance of difficult emotions

& thoughts.

" Have to " sounds a lot like " I have no choice " - and the funny

thing about acceptance is, it's a choice. If you haven't already,

try substituting the word " willingness " for " acceptance. " If you

have " Get Out of Your Mind, " you can look at the chapter on " What

Willingness Is and Is Not " to get some feel for this.

Also, I don't think anyone can promise you that acceptance means

" you will always feel the way you feel now. " About the only thing

they can promise you is, " you will feel the way you feel in each

moment. " This is a threat only if you view feelings as your enemy.

What if you could change not your feelings, but your relationship

to them?

There is a wonderful quote on p. 129 of " Get Out of Your Mind " -

it is from someone who had struggled with panic disorder for many

years before learning ACT:

" It's like I've been given color. I was seeing black

and white my whole life, and it's like I see rainbows

now and stuff. A lot of the emotions I thought I

couldn't have and wasn't willing to have ... I can

get as much enjoyment out of those now as anything

else.

" Sadness was one, embarrassment was another, and then

anxiety. And the anxiety is one that I still focus on

the most, because it does have that life-threatening

quality sometimes. I'm very in touch now with

mortality, and like I said, you get a stabbing chest

pain, numbness, and can't breathe, and you know that

catches your attention. But in one sense I enjoy it

all. So sadness, sadness used to be a thing that was

awful ... It was so overwhelming in some areas that

it almost felt life-threatening in itself. I would

come up against issues in my life, and it was so sad

that I thought if I was to have that or feel that

fully, that I really wasn't sure what would happen. I

couldn't conceive of being that sad. "

I'm not trying to give your mind another measuring stick to judge

yourself by & find yourself wanting. Only to suggest there is

something we can yet discover.

The other night I took a cue from p. 130 of this same chapter and

imagined the very uncomfortable mood I was in as a thick, shaggy

carpet - something with a lot of character. It was kind of neat. It

allowed me to get closer to the mood without having to feel

controlled or threatened by it. And the mood was what was there in

my life just at that moment - along with the street I was walking

on and the weather & the people and everything else.

- Randy

[Guest guest]

Bruce - Here is the post you just sent with some things highlighted that jumped out at me. Yellow shows struggle. Green shows acceptance

Bruce said

Thanks for the link, Bill. It was a good article. But I guess when I read it, I think of blustering through, not acceptance. I guess I don't really know how to accept and get moving. I only know how to force myself with great effort against my mind's strong resistance. This leaves me with an result that's only with half my capabilities and also leaves me exhausted. Sure sounds like a struggle to me.

I am feeling a bit better today though, thanks to a good day at work of group effort. I was also thinking of all the distortions I carry around with me and was able to consider them as just thoughts. After some thought on that, the tension in gut relaxed. I'm still tired out, though. Of course you do. Your body is full of struggle chemicals.

I guess I'm a curious person, although I don't think extraordinarily so. I think I used to be more curious. Try renewing your curiosity.

Accepting that I'll always feel like I feel now is tough. Really tough. I understand that people accept things that are much worse and maybe I will have to. No maybe about it. You must accept it. The alternative is to struggle with it because it's not going away as long as you struggle.

Please don't feel inadequate. I am getting a lot of value from your ideas.

*******************************************************************************************

Back to what Bill says.

ACT progress for me is iterative. I can remember some ahaa moments but they usually passed quickly. But after each one I felt stronger (more psychologically flexible). These usually occur when I least expect them, a sign that they may be directly associated with the absence of struggling rather than the result of struggling with the struggling.

Based strictly on your posts I sense that you are doing three things that are counterproductive:

1. Trying too hard

2. Expecting too much3. Discounting the little successes you are actually having.

So here's my suggestion:

1. Take an ACT vacation. Put away the books for a week and just do what works for you. You mentioned defusion and "good day at work of group effort." Can you increase these?

2. Dramatically lower your standards. The one's you have for ACT are set ups for disappointment. Set exoectations for success.

3. Celebrate (in very small simple ways) your successes.

Bill

To: ACT_for_the_Public From: onebnz@...Date: Thu, 17 Feb 2011 21:24:53 -0800Subject: Re: Valued Life

Thanks for the link, Bill. It was a good article. But I guess when I read it, I think of blustering through, not acceptance. I guess I don't really know how to accept and get moving. I only know how to force myself with great effort against my mind's strong resistance. This leaves me with an result that's only with half my capabilities and also leaves me exhausted.

I am feeling a bit better today though, thanks to a good day at work of group effort. I was also thinking of all the distortions I carry around with me and was able to consider them as just thoughts. After some thought on that, the tension in gut relaxed. I'm still tired out, though.

I guess I'm a curious person, although I don't think extraordinarily so. I think I used to be more curious.

Accepting that I'll always feel like I feel now is tough. Really tough. I understand that people accept things that are much worse and maybe I will have to.

Please don't feel inadequate. I am getting a lot of value from your ideas.

Thanks,

Bruce

Hi Bruce - OK, so along the lines of the uninvited guest metaphor - The aunt shows up to an already unfulfilling party so even if you do accept her presence, the party is not much fun. Something about your posts makes me want to keep pushing on the values component of ACT. Here's a recent article by Forsythehttp://www.psychologytoday.com/blog/peace-mind/201011/creating-life-purpose who wrote Your Life On Purpose, which I highly recommend. Maybe it will help. I'm not saying that you can simply "value and committed action" your way out of your funk. But I'm pretty sure that those two ACT core processes are essential to getting out. The other four are there if you need them and will enhance the experience of living a valued life. Are you a curious person? Can you nurture your curiosity to help you look for outlets for your passion and energy? This list has many people who have the same "complaint" as you do. Several have told small success stories of getting moving. Several have told of the effect of sustaining these small steps. I feel woefully inadequate to help you as the stuff I am offering is not new and not exciting, in and of itself. Bill Oh. One more question. What would you do if you found out that "accepting means accepting always feeling like I do now"? (You words.) Would you keep struggling with "it." I have not found anything that assures that acceptance will change anything, in and of itself. Maybe "it" doesn't seem final enough to really accept without any negotiation and with time to negotiate. What if it was the diagnosis of a terminal illness but with no expected time frame. Sorry for the blunt questions but these may be the kind of questions that lie between you and "truly getting it."

To: ACT_for_the_Public From: onebnz@...Date: Thu, 17 Feb 2011 10:36:05 -0800Subject: Re: Valued LifeActually, my job is not bad. The people are really nice, it's a job where we help people and it's in line with my values. My boss is a great guy. I do work that is valued. It's just that I have a lot of time to fill. I know some people would really like to have that problem. But it's kind of like people who are salespeople in a not very busy store. I have the common American value that my work should be some kind of career that tells me who I am. I have a really hard time shaking that. We spend so much time trying to get a career early in life that it's hard to admit that my job doesn't add to my identity.

But the same fear follows me at home and in the community, too. It's not like solving my career issues would put me on the road to recovery. There is something very deep in me that calls out. I have no idea what it is. It feels like I need to let something go, some idea that is controlling me. I have examined the usual pathways, my childhood, my parents etc. and I believe I have forgiven and accepted there.

I do have fleeting moments of feeling OK, even good. Then the despair comes crashing back. I've come to fear that feeling and by now, I've come to expect it. It's invaded situations where I used to feel pretty good. And that's discouraging. I feel like I'm at a point where accepting means accepting always feeling like I do now.

I am very tired of how I've been living. I certainly do want to change. I have changed a lot in my life. I guess I'm frustrated that change and time has not healed me.

Thanks,

Bruce

Hi Bruce - It sounds like you are expecting satisfaction from the place you are unlikely to get it - your job! By the way you describe your work situation, albeit very generally, there is not much hope for the job to yield what you are looking for. That doesn't mean you need to change jobs. It means you need to find an outlet for your time and efforts where you will get the satisfaction you are looking for. Maybe the job needs to be a means to some other end rather than the end itself. I honestly don't know many people whose values are satisfied by their job. And I've had many hundreds of people in my organizations. Most of the "happy ones" were people who pursued their values away from work, for the most part. The truly unhappy ones were those who expected "happiness" from some truly crappy jobs, supervised by some truly crappy supervisors. The quest for the sense of well-being has always been a trap (as in Happiness Trap) for me. I get "it" two or three times a week at the most, usually when I feel I have successfully defused or accepted something. I get it when someone thanks me for a contribution; and when I feel connected to another person, especially when caring. The tight feeling in the stomach is something to be accepted, especially the feelings you have about them. The fatigue in the mind sounds like a symptom of your struggles. I said I think you are close to getting it. I said that because you sound very tired of life the way it has been and are really, really ready for a change. Plus you seem to understand what ACT asks you to do to get it. It's time to get out the hexaflex and the tools in your toolkit and and start using them, in very small but deliberate doses. There will probably not be an epiphany. But you might notice some very small "highs" that you can build on. The first ones might be hard to recognize as they will be the slight absence of struggle. Build on those. Acceptance is a necessary component but not a sufficient component of psychological flexibility - the purpose of ACT. Bill

To: ACT_for_the_Public From: onebnz@...Date: Wed, 16 Feb 2011 16:06:40 -0800Subject: Re: Valued LifeHi Bill:

Thanks for your reply.

I do have a to-do list and I generally get what I need to do done. But I don't get much satisfaction. I guess satisfaction to me is a feeling of well-being, that I've done well.

I want to care about my family, my work, and my community. I guess that's kind of stock stuff. I struggle most with work. I just can't seem to get invested in it the way others can.

For connection, I'd say the same three things as above.

For contribution, I'd like to really contribute my talents and efforts at work. A good deal of the time, I'm "sitting on my hands".

The bad feeling is tightness in the stomach and fatigue in the mind. I also have deep avoidance of doing anything. I'm obsessed with these feelings and monitor them constantly. Getting deeply involved or concentrating on something is very difficult.

It used to be that these feelings were more intense but only lasted part of the day. Now they're more diffuse but they come on early in the day and stay until late evening.

Bruce - Write a list of things to be done and start doing them, even if just one a day. What is your definition of "satisfaction?"Who or what do you want to care about? Name two or three using one or two words each. Who or what do you want to be connected to" Ditto above instructions. What kind of a contribution do you want to make? Ditto How does "feel bad" feel? Sorry, I'm in a curious mood today. Bill

To: ACT_for_the_Public From: onebnz@...Date: Wed, 16 Feb 2011 12:31:19 -0800Subject: Re: Valued LifeThanks for your comments, everyone. I am again staring out the window and trying to accept my feelings of tension, anxiety and fatigue. Accept, accept, accept, I tell myself yet I continue to struggle.

Bill, thanks for the comments that you think I'm close to getting it. That gives me hope. Today is a tough day, as I am home without much to do. I feel kind of like the retiree who struggles to fill his days. Of course, there are infinite things to do and be interested in but nothing seems to satisfy.

I really relate to caring, connection and contribution. Those are values to me. I just don't see enough opportunity for me to apply them. The problem seems to be that I need to be engaged in these values constantly or I immediately feel bad.

thanks,

Bruce

Hi Bruce,

Sorry to hear of your troubles. Here is something that may possibly help. While there are hundreds of different values, and no such thing as ‘right’ or ‘wrong’, almost all values grow from the soil of the big three Cs: caring, connection and contribution. Examine any value, and see if it’s not the case that to some degree it’s about caring (i.e. expressing concern or affection) about someone or something, connecting (i.e. engaging) with someone or something, and contributing (i.e. giving) to someone or something (including yourself of course).

Now I’m going to suggest a different approach than the usual ACT approach; rather than trying to re-organise your day to fill it up with all sorts of values-guided activities or values-guided goals, instead keep doing what you’re doing in terms of activity – but see if you can infuse that activity with one or more of the three Cs, and see what happens. For example,

When you’re staring out the window, can you truly connect with the view; notice the details; turn it into a mindfulness practice; and can you find something out there to care about – the birds or the trees or the weather? Or can you connect with yourself as you look out that window - notice your body and how you are holding it? Can you contribute to yourself in some way as you stare out that window: do some gentle stretching or mindful breathing, or have some meaningful music playing? When you’re surfing the internet, can you find something there to care about or contribute – Just as you contribute to this forum, and your posts reveal some of what you care about? Can you periodically connect with your body amidst the surfing – take a break and stretch etc?

These are just examples; I’m curious to see what you can come up with and what difference it will make to your day to keep bringing those qualities of caring, connection and contribution in to your routine.

All the best,

Cheers,

Russ

www.actmindfully.com.au

www.thehappinesstrap.com

From: ACT_for_the_Public [mailto:ACT_for_the_Public ] On Behalf Of O KisutchSent: Monday, 14 February 2011 8:18 AMTo: ACT_for_the_Public Subject: Re: Valued Life

Bruce,

Sorry to hear about your mood issue. A few comments follow.

In your posts you use the terms "desired effect", "potency", "bounce", "enjoyable", "nothing works for long", "sense of meaning", "makes me feel better", and "feel like I'm doing something valued". These all refer to the goal of a change in mood or achieving a certain feeling. This goal is part and parcel of the other approaches you are trying, but should it be applied to your ACT work?

My understanding is that ACT helps us release our tight grip on the feeling-based preconditions and evaluations which restrict our behavior. And I wonder if you are applying the above preconditions and evaluations--which are part and parcel of the other approaches you are trying--to the ACT processes and in so doing making an error?

I think your post is interesting because it raises a fundamental question for me: what feelings should I pursue, e.g., should I try to have fun, try to experience joy, try to not feel shame, etc.? Should I pursue feelings? Should I do something/or avoid doing something because it makes me feel a certain way?

One answer: do what you value. Another answer: obviously, yes, you should try to have fun, have joy, not feel meaningless. I think ACT gives us a way to try to steer through life where, sometimes, seeking feelings works in terms of living a valued life but, at other times, seeking feelings can really get in the way of a valued life.

There's a kind of everything or nothing in the ACT books I've read with respect to willingness and seeking feeling. I often wonder if it's more rhetorical than actual--just like that chapter in the books that try to get us to admit that all the other solutions we've tried haven't worked. Well, some of those methods probably do work, or could work, given certain conditions etc. But the function of those chapters and the 100% approach to willingness is to achieve the effect of improvement, and that justifies the means. Getting someone to commit wholeheartedly to ACT and dedicate their resources to learning and doing it probably leads to better results, esp. because ACT runs counter to the feeling-orientation of people who suffer from unwanted feelings.

I think the real world is not black and white but color. So, sometimes it's good to have those feeling goals in hand, but it's also good to be able to loosen the grip on them like when you were typing your message below with the sinking, grinding feeling that told you what was going to happen today.

Oki

To: ACT_for_the_Public Sent: Sun, February 13, 2011 9:48:27 AMSubject: Re: Valued Life

Thank you to everyone for your messages this morning. I certainly appreciate the replies and I'm reading the posts with great interest.

I did try Cymbalta a few months ago and that has been fine but has not achieved the desired effect, at least for me. Actually, I have tried various anti-depressants and other medications over the past 12 years. At first, Paxil was quite effective for me but over time it seems that SSRIs have lost their potency. I did feel like a different person when the Paxil was really working. I trust my doctor but I think we are both at a loss of what to try next.

Regarding my values, I'm watching my daughter play basketball this afternoon and I have a 12-Step meeting tonight. Those are both highly valued activities for me and I'll very likely feel better when participating in them. But I can't demand my daughter play basketball all day or that I sit in meetings continually. My values of caring for my family and keeping my job prevent that. Right now, in the morning, I'm sitting here with the sinking, grinding feeling in my gut for no real reason except it's another day. I'm one of those people who gets up every morning looking forward to going to bed again at night. Until I leave for my daughter's game, my activities will be variations on surfing the Internet and staring out the window. It's "zoning out" as defined in the Happiness Trap but it's a lot of my life. I'm one of those people who has tried just about every one of the control strategies Russ mentions in that section of the book and he's right, nothing works for long. Right now, fish oil/Omega 3s, vitamin D and exercise are the factors I'm placing my hopes in. I figure they are good for my health even if they don't improve my mood. Strangely, I get no bounce from exercise. It's like my feel-good endorphins are not working.

I guess my values place being a good dad at the top of the list and being a good husband to my wife. Being self-supporting through my job is also a big one. After that, it kind of drops off. I'm envious of people who can lose themselves in hobbies and causes. I'm nominally involved in several of these but they've lost any sense of real meaning. It's hard to even get myself to watch TV. Reading self-help books that offer some hope is my most enjoyable hobby.

Anyway, thanks for reading this. It does make me feel better that there are people out there who can relate to what I'm going through and that some people are able to get to the other side.

Bruce

Hi Simone, I was thinking along those lines, too. It really sounds like a deeply ingrained depression that Bruce is experiencing, perhaps as a byproduct of anxiety, or in an of itself--they feed off of each other. I lived that way for years before getting back on track with the help of medication. I am grateful that I have a doctor who is anti-meds in general but sees their usefulness in certain individuals and monitors me carefully for unwanted side effects.

Bruce, a few months back, I think you mentioned that you were going to try an anti depressant. How did that go? Do you have a doctor you totally trust in this regard?

Helena

Valued LifeTo: ACT_for_the_Public Date: Friday, 11 February, 2011, 20:16

Part of my problem is that I don't really know what a valued life looks like. I have a full life, if I list all my activities. I'm generally acting on my values. But even so, I have a lot of discretionary time and I don't really know what to do with it. I have a lot of time I'm obligated to be at work or home but no compelling next thing to do. So I struggle with procrastination and meaninglessness. If I just pick something to do, I have a hard time concentrating, sticking with it, and feeling like I'm doing something valued. It seems like this has been going on forever. And everything thing I do to get through this seems like a control activity.Thanks for any thoughts,Bruce

[Guest guest]

Bruce - It may seem to you like Randy and are are selling two different kinds of snake oil for your _________. Actually, I think we are simply coming at the ______________ from different points on the hexaflex. So don't sit there and try to decide which one to rub on the ____________. Try them both and anything else you think might work (curiosity). Remember, ACT is about workability. You may well find something that works for you while experimenting with what Randy, I or others are suggesting.

Bill

> To: ACT_for_the_Public > Date: Fri, 18 Feb 2011 10:23:26 +0000> Subject: Re: Valued Life> > > > > >> > Accepting that I'll always feel like I feel now is tough.> > Really tough. I understand that people accept things that are> > much worse and maybe I will have to.> > Bruce,> > I might suggest a slight twist on acceptance of difficult emotions> & thoughts.> > "Have to" sounds a lot like "I have no choice" - and the funny> thing about acceptance is, it's a choice. If you haven't already,> try substituting the word "willingness" for "acceptance." If you> have "Get Out of Your Mind," you can look at the chapter on "What> Willingness Is and Is Not" to get some feel for this.> > Also, I don't think anyone can promise you that acceptance means> "you will always feel the way you feel now." About the only thing> they can promise you is, "you will feel the way you feel in each> moment." This is a threat only if you view feelings as your enemy.> What if you could change not your feelings, but your relationship> to them?> > There is a wonderful quote on p. 129 of "Get Out of Your Mind" -> it is from someone who had struggled with panic disorder for many> years before learning ACT:> > "It's like I've been given color. I was seeing black> and white my whole life, and it's like I see rainbows> now and stuff. A lot of the emotions I thought I> couldn't have and wasn't willing to have ... I can> get as much enjoyment out of those now as anything> else.> > "Sadness was one, embarrassment was another, and then> anxiety. And the anxiety is one that I still focus on> the most, because it does have that life-threatening> quality sometimes. I'm very in touch now with> mortality, and like I said, you get a stabbing chest> pain, numbness, and can't breathe, and you know that> catches your attention. But in one sense I enjoy it> all. So sadness, sadness used to be a thing that was> awful ... It was so overwhelming in some areas that> it almost felt life-threatening in itself. I would> come up against issues in my life, and it was so sad> that I thought if I was to have that or feel that> fully, that I really wasn't sure what would happen. I> couldn't conceive of being that sad."> > I'm not trying to give your mind another measuring stick to judge> yourself by & find yourself wanting. Only to suggest there is> something we can yet discover.> > The other night I took a cue from p. 130 of this same chapter and> imagined the very uncomfortable mood I was in as a thick, shaggy> carpet - something with a lot of character. It was kind of neat. It> allowed me to get closer to the mood without having to feel> controlled or threatened by it. And the mood was what was there in> my life just at that moment - along with the street I was walking> on and the weather & the people and everything else.> > - Randy> > > > ------------------------------------> > For other ACT materials and list serves see www.contextualpsychology.org> > If you do not wish to belong to ACT_for_the_Public, you may > unsubscribe by sending an email to > ACT_for_the_Public-unsubscribe@...! Groups Links> > <*> To visit your group on the web, go to:> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/ACT_for_the_Public/> > <*> Your email settings:> Individual Email | Traditional> > <*> To change settings online go to:> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/ACT_for_the_Public/join> (Yahoo! ID required)> > <*> To change settings via email:> ACT_for_the_Public-digest > ACT_for_the_Public-fullfeatured > > <*>