Re: Valued Life

[Guest guest]

Hi Bruce,

Interesting post.

It might be instructive to gather experiences of willingly and fully having the experience of procratinating, spending time "meaninglessly", doing and activity and then stopping it and not feeling like it's a valued activity. You know, try to aim for willingness and see what this undesirable experience consists of.

What's it like to procrastinate. How do I feel--what are the guilt feelings, the anxious feelings, the shame feelings, etc. Ditto for what it is like to start an activity and then quit doing it.

Maybe there is some part of these experiences, which, in avoiding it, is leading you back to the undesirable experiences, e.g., procrastinating now to avoid shame of future procrastination.

And the same thing might help for picking activities. Maybe there are some activities you are choosing to not do because there is something in them that is on the "to avoid" list. For example, not feeling that you are doing something valued--maybe this concern is something that you are aiming to avoid. But what if you were to have this feeling when you truly were doing something valued? Or what if there was no feeling that would confirm that your chosen activity was a valued activity?

Okisutch

To: ACT_for_the_Public Sent: Fri, February 11, 2011 12:16:14 PMSubject: Valued Life

Part of my problem is that I don't really know what a valued life looks like. I have a full life, if I list all my activities. I'm generally acting on my values. But even so, I have a lot of discretionary time and I don't really know what to do with it. I have a lot of time I'm obligated to be at work or home but no compelling next thing to do. So I struggle with procrastination and meaninglessness. If I just pick something to do, I have a hard time concentrating, sticking with it, and feeling like I'm doing something valued. It seems like this has been going on forever. And everything thing I do to get through this seems like a control activity.Thanks for any thoughts,Bruce

[Guest guest]

Bruce,

If someone told you, you had a week to live, what would you be doing?

Simone

Subject: Valued LifeTo: ACT_for_the_Public Date: Friday, 11 February, 2011, 20:16

Part of my problem is that I don't really know what a valued life looks like. I have a full life, if I list all my activities. I'm generally acting on my values. But even so, I have a lot of discretionary time and I don't really know what to do with it. I have a lot of time I'm obligated to be at work or home but no compelling next thing to do. So I struggle with procrastination and meaninglessness. If I just pick something to do, I have a hard time concentrating, sticking with it, and feeling like I'm doing something valued. It seems like this has been going on forever. And everything thing I do to get through this seems like a control activity.Thanks for any thoughts,Bruce

[Guest guest]

Unfortunately, I'd probably be in bed, sleeping as much as possible...Bruce, If someone told you, you had a week to live, what would you be doing? SimoneSubject: Valued LifeTo: ACT_for_the_Public Date: Friday, 11 February, 2011, 20:16 Part of my problem is that I don't really know what a valued life looks like. I have a full life, if I list all my activities. I'm generally acting on my values. But even so, I have a lot of discretionary time and I don't really know what to do with it. I have a lot of time I'm obligated to be at work or home but no compelling next thing to do. So I struggle with procrastination and meaninglessness. If I just pick something to do, I have a hard time concentrating, sticking with it, and feeling like I'm doing something valued. It seems like this has been going on forever. And everything thing I do to get through this seems like a control activity.Thanks for any thoughts,Bruce

[Guest guest]

I doubt that anyone can possibly know how they would spend their last hours or days until they are in front of that decision. And how many people actually reach that point? It reminds me of the story about an enlightened one who fell over a cliff and, on his way down, he picked some berries from a tree he was hurling by and totally relished them as he fell to his death. No, I don't think I would be enjoying berries on the way to certain death, but I also don't know what I would do if I had only one week to live. I think I would be making out lists to let my sisters know who should get jewelry--or something trivial like that!

I can tell how I did respond to an unexpected but almost certain death at about age 22. I had heard there was a rapist/killer on the prowl in my neighborhood and had worked out in my mind beforehand what I would do if he came my way: I would confront him by fighting tooth and nail. When that man burst through my window wearing a mask around 4:00 a.m., something took over my mind. I did not fight; I reasoned with him in a soothing voice. I was calm and gentle. I told him I knew he was too nice a person to want to hurt me, and when he ordered me to take off my clothes, I did, but I also told him that he was too good a person to molest me. He stood there for a very long time (seemed like an hour, but was probably only a minute), then he bolted through my front door, stealing my purse on the way out. After he left, I allowed myself to feel the fear for the first time, and I was a basket case.

The reason I tell this story is because I don't think any of us knows what we would do in such a crisis situation. I certainly didn't. The cops told me that my reaction saved my life. He had raped and killed the girls who fought with him. How did I know what to do? I have no idea. I just acted by instinct. I GOT HIM in that moment. I smelled his fear and I knew what he was all about. I knew how to reach him. I WAS him, in that moment--somehow, some way. It saved my life.

So, Bruce, if you had only one week to live, your instincts might kick in, too, and could surprise you.

Helena

Valued LifeTo: ACT_for_the_Public Date: Friday, 11 February, 2011, 20:16

Part of my problem is that I don't really know what a valued life looks like. I have a full life, if I list all my activities. I'm generally acting on my values. But even so, I have a lot of discretionary time and I don't really know what to do with it. I have a lot of time I'm obligated to be at work or home but no compelling next thing to do. So I struggle with procrastination and meaninglessness. If I just pick something to do, I have a hard time concentrating, sticking with it, and feeling like I'm doing something valued. It seems like this has been going on forever. And everything thing I do to get through this seems like a control activity.Thanks for any thoughts,Bruce

[Guest guest]

Bruce .......

> Part of my problem is that I don't really know what a valued life

> looks like. I have a full life, if I list all my activities. I'm

> generally acting on my values. But even so, I have a lot of

> discretionary time and I don't really know what to do with it. I have

> a lot of time I'm obligated to be at work or home but no compelling

> next thing to do. So I struggle with procrastination and

> meaninglessness.

Have a think about this below and then try to evaluate it in terms of your

values ..........

The happiest people on this planet have 1 or 2 things in common .......

- they have a purpose to their lives

- they are passionate about something ....... a hobby for example etc.

I can tell you how it sits with me personally. I'm very limited with what I can

do etc,

but I have BOTH a purpose in my life, and I'm very passionate about 2 things in

my life -

one is my collection, and the other is that I'm very passionate about a

particular

humanitarian issue - and it's also the purpose of my life.

Years ago after getting sick I knew that I didn't want to get married or have

kids - but I

was questioning the purpose of my life etc if I wasn't going to have kids etc.

Then after

a lot of reading I realised that I had 2 interests that I loved - the collection

and a

humanitarian /civil rights issue - so I decided that I would make the civil

rights issue

my " purpose " in life, after all I'm so very passionate about it.

So I'm probably doing more on it than I was then ..... I can't be sure but I

read up on

new things each day, I email a community almost every day. And I'm feeling a lot

better

about " me " since I change the way I was thinking about it.

So ..... have a think of the 2 things I've mentioned above. eg. is there

something that

you absolutely love to do, or feel very strongly about? (are you passionate

about

something???) or something that you'd love to do that you've never done .......

or if you

want to do more on something. eg. Are you passionate about any hobbies,

interests etc? Can

you do more of these?

I'm still working on my values, but my 2 passions - the collection & the human

right -

will definately be woven in there somehow.

Hope you can understand ..... I'm suffering a big of brain fog

iolanda

--

Smile – it increases your face value!!! ;-)

[Guest guest]

hi, this is all non ACT, but here goes....

I had been dealing with meaning? or meaninglessness in my own life recently,

until i read about the philosophy of existentialism and also the theory of the

absurd.

Wiki can explain this better than i could:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Existentialism

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Absurdism

Basically these philosophers philosophized that we are all innately seeking

order or reason or meaning in our lives, when in fact, unless you are religious,

there is really no inherent meaning to life at all. And as we all search for

" meaning " we simply end up being disappointed or frustrated because there is

none to be found, thus the difficult loop that we end up in.

What I got out of this, is that if like the Existentialists say there is no

meaning as such to life, than we can simply give up the search or the struggle

to find it.... and instead therefore you are free to find your own meaning in

your own life in whatever way you choose (ACT Values)

Thus the theory of the absurd, how absurd it is that we are seeking or searching

for something that doesn't exist... and how much time we would likely waste in

such a search, time lost on more valuable activities.

I found this philosophy gave me the option of giving up the " search " and

therefore the freedom to live out my Values as in an ACT sense.

Anyways, sounds kinda heavy, but thought it might help, a different twist on

things.

Tom

>

> Bruce .......

> > Part of my problem is that I don't really know what a valued life

> > looks like. I have a full life, if I list all my activities. I'm

> > generally acting on my values. But even so, I have a lot of

> > discretionary time and I don't really know what to do with it. I have

> > a lot of time I'm obligated to be at work or home but no compelling

> > next thing to do. So I struggle with procrastination and

> > meaninglessness.

> Have a think about this below and then try to evaluate it in terms of your

values ..........

>

> The happiest people on this planet have 1 or 2 things in common .......

>

> - they have a purpose to their lives

> - they are passionate about something ....... a hobby for example etc.

>

>

> I can tell you how it sits with me personally. I'm very limited with what I

can do etc,

> but I have BOTH a purpose in my life, and I'm very passionate about 2 things

in my life -

> one is my collection, and the other is that I'm very passionate about a

particular

> humanitarian issue - and it's also the purpose of my life.

>

> Years ago after getting sick I knew that I didn't want to get married or have

kids - but I

> was questioning the purpose of my life etc if I wasn't going to have kids etc.

Then after

> a lot of reading I realised that I had 2 interests that I loved - the

collection and a

> humanitarian /civil rights issue - so I decided that I would make the civil

rights issue

> my " purpose " in life, after all I'm so very passionate about it.

>

> So I'm probably doing more on it than I was then ..... I can't be sure but I

read up on

> new things each day, I email a community almost every day. And I'm feeling a

lot better

> about " me " since I change the way I was thinking about it.

>

>

> So ..... have a think of the 2 things I've mentioned above. eg. is there

something that

> you absolutely love to do, or feel very strongly about? (are you passionate

about

> something???) or something that you'd love to do that you've never done

........ or if you

> want to do more on something. eg. Are you passionate about any hobbies,

interests etc? Can

> you do more of these?

>

>

> I'm still working on my values, but my 2 passions - the collection & the human

right -

> will definately be woven in there somehow.

>

>

> Hope you can understand ..... I'm suffering a big of brain fog

>

> iolanda

>

> --

>

> Smile � it increases your face value!!! ;-)

>

[Guest guest]

Bruce,

I am probably going to get shot down for this - but here goes anyway - if you were a friend of mine who had told me these things and how they feel - I think I would say 'you sound flat - and a little depressed - maybe it would be a good idea to give your brain a kick-start with some anti-depressants - then maybe you can do the ACT work. Failing that, force yourself to get some exercise and get those feel good hormones going'.

I think we all have the 'stay in bed all day' feeling. Sometimes everything just seems too damn much. But what you describe sounds a lot like depression to me - and there is a way out of that.

Best of luck and apologies if I am way off the mark.

SImone

Subject: Valued LifeTo: ACT_for_the_Public Date: Friday, 11 February, 2011, 20:16

Part of my problem is that I don't really know what a valued life looks like. I have a full life, if I list all my activities. I'm generally acting on my values. But even so, I have a lot of discretionary time and I don't really know what to do with it. I have a lot of time I'm obligated to be at work or home but no compelling next thing to do. So I struggle with procrastination and meaninglessness. If I just pick something to do, I have a hard time concentrating, sticking with it, and feeling like I'm doing

something valued. It seems like this has been going on forever. And everything thing I do to get through this seems like a control activity.Thanks for any thoughts,Bruce

[Guest guest]

It sounds like you were in contact with what you valued most: your life. It must have been a very terrifying moment. I am very glad you acted as you did, if not you wouldn't be here sharing so much with all of us. XXXResponding to Simone's question. Did any of you see the episode of The Simpsons when Homer is told he has 24 hours to live. He crams in all of what he values, mostly related to those he loves: his family. The see sunsets, make love, he plays with his children and sits down and listens to what they want to tell him (they don't know he only has 24 hours to live). He then doesn't die, and he vows to live his life just has he did that day. But you see

that all he does day after day is lie on the sofa eating cheesy crisps and watching mindlessly the TV. I really liked that episode (I like cartoons in general). I suppose I wouldn't like to live with the stress of fitting in all I value everyday of my life. But I do believe being like Homer, sitting on the sofa and letting all you value pass you by is not the way either. Take care all XXX______________________Signature: Mrs Em Equanimity This is my personal blog where I record my experience applying Acceptance Commitment Therapy to my anxiety and agoraphobia in particular, and my life in general. Feel free to browse. http://eyeofthehurricane-act.blogspot.com/--- El dom, 13/2/11, hbbr Asunto: Re:

Valued LifePara: "ACT for the Public" <ACT_for_the_Public >Fecha: domingo, 13 de febrero, 2011 00:54

I doubt that anyone can possibly know how they would spend their last hours or days until they are in front of that decision. And how many people actually reach that point? It reminds me of the story about an enlightened one who fell over a cliff and, on his way down, he picked some berries from a tree he was hurling by and totally relished them as he fell to his death. No, I don't think I would be enjoying berries on the way to certain death, but I also don't know what I would do if I had only one week to live. I think I would be making out lists to let my sisters know who should get jewelry--or something trivial like that!

I can tell how I did respond to an unexpected but almost certain death at about age 22. I had heard there was a rapist/killer on the prowl in my neighborhood and had worked out in my mind beforehand what I would do if he came my way: I would confront him by fighting tooth and nail. When that man burst through my window wearing a mask around 4:00 a.m., something took over my mind. I did not fight; I reasoned with him in a soothing voice. I was calm and gentle. I told him I knew he was too nice a person to want to hurt me, and when he ordered me to take off my clothes, I did, but I also told him that he was too good a person to molest me. He stood there for a very long time (seemed like an hour, but was probably only a minute), then he bolted through my front door, stealing my purse on the way out. After he left, I allowed myself to feel the fear for

the first time, and I was a basket case.

The reason I tell this story is because I don't think any of us knows what we would do in such a crisis situation. I certainly didn't. The cops told me that my reaction saved my life. He had raped and killed the girls who fought with him. How did I know what to do? I have no idea. I just acted by instinct. I GOT HIM in that moment. I smelled his fear and I knew what he was all about. I knew how to reach him. I WAS him, in that moment--somehow, some way. It saved my life.

So, Bruce, if you had only one week to live, your instincts might kick in, too, and could surprise you.

Helena

Valued LifeTo: ACT_for_the_Public Date: Friday, 11 February, 2011, 20:16

Part of my problem is that I don't really know what a valued life looks like. I have a full life, if I list all my activities. I'm generally acting on my values. But even so, I have a lot of discretionary time and I don't really know what to do with it. I have a lot of time I'm obligated to be at work or home but no compelling next thing to do. So I struggle with procrastination and meaninglessness. If I just pick something to do, I have a hard time concentrating, sticking with it, and feeling like I'm

doing something valued. It seems like this has been going on forever. And everything thing I do to get through this seems like a control activity.Thanks for any thoughts,Bruce

[Guest guest]

Hi Simone, I was thinking along those lines, too. It really sounds like a deeply ingrained depression that Bruce is experiencing, perhaps as a byproduct of anxiety, or in an of itself--they feed off of each other. I lived that way for years before getting back on track with the help of medication. I am grateful that I have a doctor who is anti-meds in general but sees their usefulness in certain individuals and monitors me carefully for unwanted side effects.

Bruce, a few months back, I think you mentioned that you were going to try an anti depressant. How did that go? Do you have a doctor you totally trust in this regard?

Helena

Valued LifeTo: ACT_for_the_Public Date: Friday, 11 February, 2011, 20:16

Part of my problem is that I don't really know what a valued life looks like. I have a full life, if I list all my activities. I'm generally acting on my values. But even so, I have a lot of discretionary time and I don't really know what to do with it. I have a lot of time I'm obligated to be at work or home but no compelling next thing to do. So I struggle with procrastination and meaninglessness. If I just pick something to do, I have a hard time concentrating, sticking with it, and feeling like I'm doing something valued. It seems like this has been going on forever. And everything thing I do to get through this seems like a control activity.Thanks for any thoughts,Bruce

[Guest guest]

Dear list,

I find Bruce's question a great one, since I too often feel caught

up in ennui, procrastination, etc. - even when I know I am also

doing some valued actions each day.

There may not be a " right " answer to his question. But I'm

definitely underwhelmed by the two answers I've heard so far - (1)

drugs and (2) pretending we have just a week left to live.

Starting with #1: Indeed, Simone, I don't think any of us should be

advising other list members to kickstart their brains with

antidepressants. We're not doctors, and even doctors don't diagnose

with so little information. My vote would be that we stick with a

med-neutral policy on this list - which includes not attempting to

prescribe for others.

As for #2: Playing a game of " if I only had a week to live " sounds

pretty similar to the " Attending Your Own Funeral " exercise in " Get

Out of Your Mind " - with this important difference: many of our

valued activities are done for the long term, not the short term.

As an example, I just wrote a check for this summer's rent at my

place in Woodstock, NY. That's money I would spend quite

differently if I knew I had a week left to live. So I'm not sure

how fruitful I would find fantasizing about a week left to live if

I don't actually have a week left to live.

Lest I sound harsh, let me add that I'm not doing any better in

pondering Bruce's question. Maybe more mindfulness exercises would

combat ennui. Or maybe it's just mental chatter to attack ourselves

for not being absolutely 100 percent value-driven every moment of

every day. I don't know. I'd love to hear something really creative

& insightful & cool from someone else.

Yours in sloth, Randy

[Guest guest]

Hi Randy,

Yes, I know what you mean - that is why I hesitated to post. Sometimes in a genuine attempt to help we may get 'off mark' which I kind of knew that I was - however, I was simply trying to be a 'cyber friend' in the only way that I know how. So apologies to Bruce for playing doctor! I too would like to hear more creative replies.

Simone

Subject: Re: Valued LifeTo: ACT_for_the_Public Date: Sunday, 13 February, 2011, 15:45

Dear list,I find Bruce's question a great one, since I too often feel caughtup in ennui, procrastination, etc. - even when I know I am alsodoing some valued actions each day.There may not be a "right" answer to his question. But I'mdefinitely underwhelmed by the two answers I've heard so far - (1)drugs and (2) pretending we have just a week left to live.Starting with #1: Indeed, Simone, I don't think any of us should beadvising other list members to kickstart their brains withantidepressants. We're not doctors, and even doctors don't diagnosewith so little information. My vote would be that we stick with amed-neutral policy on this list - which includes not attempting toprescribe for others.As for #2: Playing a game of "if I only had a week to live" soundspretty similar to the "Attending Your Own Funeral" exercise in "GetOut of Your Mind" - with this important

difference: many of ourvalued activities are done for the long term, not the short term.As an example, I just wrote a check for this summer's rent at myplace in Woodstock, NY. That's money I would spend quitedifferently if I knew I had a week left to live. So I'm not surehow fruitful I would find fantasizing about a week left to live ifI don't actually have a week left to live.Lest I sound harsh, let me add that I'm not doing any better inpondering Bruce's question. Maybe more mindfulness exercises wouldcombat ennui. Or maybe it's just mental chatter to attack ourselvesfor not being absolutely 100 percent value-driven every moment ofevery day. I don't know. I'd love to hear something really creative & insightful & cool from someone else.Yours in sloth, Randy

[Guest guest]

I just saw Simone's response but I'm sending this anyway. Bill

Randy - I see your point about Simone's post. I took it differently. Bruce said he didn't feel he had any values. Simone was trying to help him focus on the very short term to discover something that might get him started on finding some values. I don't think she was suggesting that he live his life as if he had only a week to live but I guess I can see how that could be an interpretation. As far as Simone's post about kick-starting the brain with meds, I took it more as her personal story about what worked for her rather than a prescription for Bruce. Short of not saying anything at all, I find that pretty med-neutral. I think this is a case where Simone deserves the benefit of the doubt. Perhaps Bruce, you, me, and many others are expecting too much from the values work. To the extent you are "doing some valued actions each day" I would say you are living a valued life in your own way. Maybe not in the style of Mother Theresa or Victor el, et al. But still valued. Maybe our values are fine; we just need some defusion/acceptance/observing self/contact with the present so the demons on our bus are no I've had some success in looking at my calendar and my checkbook to find clues about what I value. Sometimes I just need to hone the committed action plan to get the bus moving a bit faster in a valued direction. Then again, maybe I should just be satisfied with the course and speed of my bus, at that moment. Values work may be the holy grail if we carry it too far.

> To: ACT_for_the_Public > Date: Sun, 13 Feb 2011 15:45:15 +0000> Subject: Re: Valued Life> > > > Dear list,> > I find Bruce's question a great one, since I too often feel caught> up in ennui, procrastination, etc. - even when I know I am also> doing some valued actions each day.> > There may not be a "right" answer to his question. But I'm> definitely underwhelmed by the two answers I've heard so far - (1)> drugs and (2) pretending we have just a week left to live.> > Starting with #1: Indeed, Simone, I don't think any of us should be> advising other list members to kickstart their brains with> antidepressants. We're not doctors, and even doctors don't diagnose> with so little information. My vote would be that we stick with a> med-neutral policy on this list - which includes not attempting to> prescribe for others.> > As for #2: Playing a game of "if I only had a week to live" sounds> pretty similar to the "Attending Your Own Funeral" exercise in "Get> Out of Your Mind" - with this important difference: many of our> valued activities are done for the long term, not the short term.> As an example, I just wrote a check for this summer's rent at my> place in Woodstock, NY. That's money I would spend quite> differently if I knew I had a week left to live. So I'm not sure> how fruitful I would find fantasizing about a week left to live if> I don't actually have a week left to live.> > Lest I sound harsh, let me add that I'm not doing any better in> pondering Bruce's question. Maybe more mindfulness exercises would> combat ennui. Or maybe it's just mental chatter to attack ourselves> for not being absolutely 100 percent value-driven every moment of> every day. I don't know. I'd love to hear something really creative> & insightful & cool from someone else.> > Yours in sloth, Randy > > > > ------------------------------------> > For other ACT materials and list serves see www.contextualpsychology.org> > If you do not wish to belong to ACT_for_the_Public, you may > unsubscribe by sending an email to > ACT_for_the_Public-unsubscribe@...! Groups Links> > <*> To visit your group on the web, go to:> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/ACT_for_the_Public/> > <*> Your email settings:> Individual Email | Traditional> > <*> To change settings online go to:> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/ACT_for_the_Public/join> (Yahoo! ID required)> > <*> To change settings via email:> ACT_for_the_Public-digest > ACT_for_the_Public-fullfeatured > > <*>

[Guest guest]

Really, Randy? Sharply criticizing other people's well-intentioned suggestions that happen to "underwhelm" you IS harsh, in my opinion. Simone did not advise Bruce to kick start his brain with antidepressants; it was merely a suggestion. Her exact words were "maybe it would be a good idea to give your brain a kick-start with some anti-depressants" (emphasis mine). She was offering an idea and making a suggestion about something Bruce might want to look into with his doctor (implied) -- a suggestion about something that several people on this list have found to be helpful in their journey toward living a valued life.

As for the "one week to live" suggestion, it helped me to play out that hypothetical scenario in my head in connection with a situation I'm currently struggling with. What does not inspire you does not mean it won't inspire others.

With all due respect--and I respect you greatly--I just wanted to share my viewpoint.

Helena

Re: Valued Life

Dear list,I find Bruce's question a great one, since I too often feel caughtup in ennui, procrastination, etc. - even when I know I am alsodoing some valued actions each day.There may not be a "right" answer to his question. But I'mdefinitely underwhelmed by the two answers I've heard so far - (1)drugs and (2) pretending we have just a week left to live.Starting with #1: Indeed, Simone, I don't think any of us should beadvising other list members to kickstart their brains withantidepressants. We're not doctors, and even doctors don't diagnosewith so little information. My vote would be that we stick with amed-neutral policy on this list - which includes not attempting toprescribe for others.As for #2: Playing a game of "if I only had a week to live" soundspretty similar to the "Attending Your Own Funeral" exercise in "GetOut of Your Mind" - with this important difference: many of ourvalued activities are done for the long term, not the short term.As an example, I just wrote a check for this summer's rent at myplace in Woodstock, NY. That's money I would spend quitedifferently if I knew I had a week left to live. So I'm not surehow fruitful I would find fantasizing about a week left to live ifI don't actually have a week left to live.Lest I sound harsh, let me add that I'm not doing any better inpondering Bruce's question. Maybe more mindfulness exercises wouldcombat ennui. Or maybe it's just mental chatter to attack ourselvesfor not being absolutely 100 percent value-driven every moment ofevery day. I don't know. I'd love to hear something really creative & insightful & cool from someone else.Yours in sloth, Randy

[Guest guest]

>

> Bruce said he didn't feel he had any values. Simone was

> trying to help him focus on the very short term to discover

> something that might get him started on finding some values.

Bill,

What Bruce actually said was:

" Part of my problem is that I don't really know what a

valued life looks like. I have a full life, if I list all

my activities. I'm generally acting on my values. But

even so, I have a lot of discretionary time and I don't

really know what to do with it. I have a lot of time I'm

obligated to be at work or home but no compelling next

thing to do. So I struggle with procrastination and

meaninglessness. "

That's not the same as saying he felt he didn't have values.

Bruce can clarify if he likes, but I identify very much

with what I *think* he's saying: he has things he does he

knows are valued activities, yet he also has these big empty

stretches in how he spends his days & thus a feeling of

no meaning. It seems part of how we spend our time in a

society structured the way it is, and not a flat " I have

no values " statement.

I think he raises a good question. I just have no idea

what a good answer would look like. You & me have similar

responses - but I wonder if we're not both shrugging

our shoulders because we don't know what else to say.

-R.

[Guest guest]

My mantra with valued living/committed action is to think small. Think of it as a tiny daily practice. You can always do more, but set an amount that is doable on your worst day and commit to that for 5 days a week. Post your activities including your days off, on the list. See what happens.For example, I have a little writing sangha. People can set their own targets. I have one student doing this with a target of 25 words per day. Lots of self evaluation for having a low target! I insisted that it be that small. I said that she could write more, but the practice is 25 words. I have a few of these little communities that I have made on facebook. I have been completely enthralled with the concept of what I am calling "natural healing communities with cultural centers of gravity around shared values." This group is one of those. This comes from the basic idea that professional help for all behavioral/psychological health is unsustainable. In part this is growing up out of a nonprofit my wife and I are starting here in Mississippi to facilitate some collaborative work between the University of Mississippi and small towns in the Mississippi Delta country (HometownScience.org). The Delta is poor past words. If professional help is what is needed...well, good luck with that. There are few professionals living there and none on the way and no money to pay them if they came. The only possible sustainable solution needs to be centered in the community.So I find myself thinking, if in the Delta, why not everywhere.You have a little community here, with a cultural center of gravity around the learning and supporting one another in practicing the ACT model.Think small, pick some small targets for daily practice. Start with one tiny act and see where it take you. You don't even need to be right. Like trying on shoes, you don't have to buy them. Pick one, try it on for a couple weeks, if you like it keep it, if not, try another. Post on your experience.This is working in my little groups.with warm regards,

G. 205 Peabody BuildingPsychology DepartmentUniversity of MississippiOxford, MS 38677ph: fax: academic homepage:www.olemiss.edu/working/kwilson/kwilson.htmalso check outwww.onelifellc.comwww.mindfulnessfortwo.comwww.facebook.com/kellygwilsonwww.tastybehaviorism.comwww.abnormalwootwoot.com

I just saw Simone's response but I'm sending this anyway. Bill

Randy - I see your point about Simone's post. I took it differently. Bruce said he didn't feel he had any values. Simone was trying to help him focus on the very short term to discover something that might get him started on finding some values. I don't think she was suggesting that he live his life as if he had only a week to live but I guess I can see how that could be an interpretation. As far as Simone's post about kick-starting the brain with meds, I took it more as her personal story about what worked for her rather than a prescription for Bruce. Short of not saying anything at all, I find that pretty med-neutral. I think this is a case where Simone deserves the benefit of the doubt. Perhaps Bruce, you, me, and many others are expecting too much from the values work. To the extent you are "doing some valued actions each day" I would say you are living a valued life in your own way. Maybe not in the st

yle of Mother Theresa or Victor el, et al. But still valued. Maybe our values are fine; we just need some defusion/acceptance/observing self/contact with the present so the demons on our bus are no I've had some success in looking at my calendar and my checkbook to find clues about what I value. Sometimes I just need to hone the committed action plan to get the bus moving a bit faster in a valued direction. Then again, maybe I should just be satisfied with the course and speed of my bus, at that moment. Values work may be the holy grail if we carry it too far.

> To: ACT_for_the_Public > Date: Sun, 13 Feb 2011 15:45:15 +0000> Subject: Re: Valued Life> > > > Dear list,> > I find Bruce's question a great one, since I too often feel caught> up in ennui, procrastination, etc. - even when I know I am also> doing some valued actions each day.> > There may not be a "right" answer to his question. But I'm> definitely underwhelmed by the two answers I've heard so far - (1)> drugs and (2) pretending we have just a week left to live.> > Starting with #1: Indeed, Simone, I don't think any of us should be> advising other list members to kickstart their brains with> antidepressants. We're not doctors, and even doctors don't diagnose> with so little information. My vote would be that we stick with a> med-neutral policy on this list -

which includes not attempting to> prescribe for others.> > As for #2: Playing a game of "if I only had a week to live" sounds> pretty similar to the "Attending Your Own Funeral" exercise in "Get> Out of Your Mind" - with this important difference: many of our> valued activities are done for the long term, not the short term.> As an example, I just wrote a check for this summer's rent at my> place in Woodstock, NY. That's money I would spend quite> differently if I knew I had a week left to live. So I'm not sure> how fruitful I would find fantasizing about a week left to live if> I don't actually have a week left to live.> > Lest I sound harsh, let me add that I'm not doing any better in> pondering Bruce's question. Maybe more mindfulness exercises would> combat ennui. Or maybe it's just mental chatter to attack ourselves> for not being absolutely 100 percent value

-driven every moment of> every day. I don't know. I'd love to hear something really creative> & insightful & cool from someone else.> > Yours in sloth, Randy > > > > ------------------------------------> > For other ACT materials and list serves see www.contextualpsychology.org> > If you do not wish to belong to ACT_for_the_Public, you may > unsubscribe by sending an email to > ACT_for_the_Public-unsubscribe@...! Groups Links> > <*> To visit your group on the web, go to:> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/ACT_for_the_Public/> > <*> Your email settings:> Individual Email | Traditional> > <*> To change settings online go to:> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/ACT_for_the_Public/join> (Yahoo! ID required)> > <*> To change settings via email:> ACT_for_t

he_Public-digest > ACT_for_the_Public-fullfeatured > > <*>

[Guest guest]

>

> Think small, pick some small targets for daily practice.

> Start with one tiny act and see where it take you. You

> don't even need to be right. Like trying on shoes, you

> don't have to buy them. Pick one, try it on for a couple

> weeks, if you like it keep it, if not, try another. Post

> on your experience.

Wait. You're saying to give up on all our head trips?

Caught again.

-R.

[Guest guest]

Agreed.

> To: ACT_for_the_Public > Date: Sun, 13 Feb 2011 16:24:43 +0000> Subject: Re: Valued Life> > > > > > Bruce said he didn't feel he had any values. Simone was > > trying to help him focus on the very short term to discover > > something that might get him started on finding some values. > > Bill, > > What Bruce actually said was: > > "Part of my problem is that I don't really know what a > valued life looks like. I have a full life, if I list all > my activities. I'm generally acting on my values. But > even so, I have a lot of discretionary time and I don't > really know what to do with it. I have a lot of time I'm > obligated to be at work or home but no compelling next > thing to do. So I struggle with procrastination and > meaninglessness."> > That's not the same as saying he felt he didn't have values. > Bruce can clarify if he likes, but I identify very much> with what I *think* he's saying: he has things he does he > knows are valued activities, yet he also has these big empty > stretches in how he spends his days & thus a feeling of > no meaning. It seems part of how we spend our time in a> society structured the way it is, and not a flat "I have > no values" statement. > > I think he raises a good question. I just have no idea > what a good answer would look like. You & me have similar > responses - but I wonder if we're not both shrugging > our shoulders because we don't know what else to say.> > -R. > > > > > ------------------------------------> > For other ACT materials and list serves see www.contextualpsychology.org> > If you do not wish to belong to ACT_for_the_Public, you may > unsubscribe by sending an email to > ACT_for_the_Public-unsubscribe@...! Groups Links> > <*> To visit your group on the web, go to:> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/ACT_for_the_Public/> > <*> Your email settings:> Individual Email | Traditional> > <*> To change settings online go to:> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/ACT_for_the_Public/join> (Yahoo! ID required)> > <*> To change settings via email:> ACT_for_the_Public-digest > ACT_for_the_Public-fullfeatured > > <*>

[Guest guest]

Thank you to everyone for your messages this morning. I certainly appreciate the replies and I'm reading the posts with great interest.I did try Cymbalta a few months ago and that has been fine but has not achieved the desired effect, at least for me. Actually, I have tried various anti-depressants and other medications over the past 12 years. At first, Paxil was quite effective for me but over time it seems that SSRIs have lost their potency. I did feel like a different person when the Paxil was really working. I trust my doctor but I think we are both at a loss of what to try next.Regarding my values, I'm watching my daughter play basketball this afternoon and I have a 12-Step meeting tonight. Those are both highly valued activities for me and I'll very likely feel better when participating in them. But I can't demand my daughter play basketball all day or that I sit in meetings continually. My values of caring for my family and keeping my job prevent that. Right now, in the morning, I'm sitting here with the sinking, grinding feeling in my gut for no real reason except it's another day. I'm one of those people who gets up every morning looking forward to going to bed again at night. Until I leave for my daughter's game, my activities will be variations on surfing the Internet and staring out the window. It's "zoning out" as defined in the Happiness Trap but it's a lot of my life. I'm one of those people who has tried just about every one of the control strategies Russ mentions in that section of the book and he's right, nothing works for long. Right now, fish oil/Omega 3s, vitamin D and exercise are the factors I'm placing my hopes in. I figure they are good for my health even if they don't improve my mood. Strangely, I get no bounce from exercise. It's like my feel-good endorphins are not working.I guess my values place being a good dad at the top of the list and being a good husband to my wife. Being self-supporting through my job is also a big one. After that, it kind of drops off. I'm envious of people who can lose themselves in hobbies and causes. I'm nominally involved in several of these but they've lost any sense of real meaning. It's hard to even get myself to watch TV. Reading self-help books that offer some hope is my most enjoyable hobby.Anyway, thanks for reading this. It does make me feel better that there are people out there who can relate to what I'm going through and that some people are able to get to the other side.BruceHi Simone, I was thinking along those lines, too. It really sounds like a deeply ingrained depression that Bruce is experiencing, perhaps as a byproduct of anxiety, or in an of itself--they feed off of each other. I lived that way for years before getting back on track with the help of medication. I am grateful that I have a doctor who is anti-meds in general but sees their usefulness in certain individuals and monitors me carefully for unwanted side effects. Bruce, a few months back, I think you mentioned that you were going to try an anti depressant. How did that go? Do you have a doctor you totally trust in this regard? Helena Valued LifeTo: ACT_for_the_Public Date: Friday, 11 February, 2011, 20:16 Part of my problem is that I don't really know what a valued life looks like. I have a full life, if I list all my activities. I'm generally acting on my values. But even so, I have a lot of discretionary time and I don't really know what to do with it. I have a lot of time I'm obligated to be at work or home but no compelling next thing to do. So I struggle with procrastination and meaninglessness. If I just pick something to do, I have a hard time concentrating, sticking with it, and feeling like I'm doing something valued. It seems like this has been going on forever. And everything thing I do to get through this seems like a control activity.Thanks for any thoughts,Bruce

[Guest guest]

Hi Bruce,Sorry to hear of your troubles. Here is something that may possibly help. While there are hundreds of different values, and no such thing as ‘right’ or ‘wrong’, almost all values grow from the soil of the big three Cs: caring, connection and contribution. Examine any value, and see if it’s not the case that to some degree it’s about caring (i.e. expressing concern or affection) about someone or something, connecting (i.e. engaging) with someone or something, and contributing (i.e. giving) to someone or something (including yourself of course).Now I’m going to suggest a different approach than the usual ACT approach; rather than trying to re-organise your day to fill it up with all sorts of values-guided activities or values-guided goals, instead keep doing what you’re doing in terms of activity – but see if you can infuse that activity with one or  more of the three Cs, and see what happens. For example, When you’re staring out the window, can you truly connect with the view; notice the details; turn it into a mindfulness practice; and can you find something out there to care about – the birds or the trees or the weather? Or can you connect with yourself as you look out that window - notice your body and how you are holding it? Can you contribute to yourself in some way as you stare out that window: do some gentle stretching or mindful breathing, or have some meaningful music playing? When you’re surfing the internet, can you find something there to care about or contribute – Just as you contribute to this forum, and your posts reveal some of what you care about? Can you periodically connect with your body amidst the surfing – take a break and stretch etc?These are just examples; I’m curious to see what you can come up with and what difference it will make to your day to keep bringing those qualities of caring, connection and contribution in to your routine. All the best,Cheers, Russ www.actmindfully.com.auwww.thehappinesstrap.com From: ACT_for_the_Public [mailto:ACT_for_the_Public ] On Behalf Of O KisutchSent: Monday, 14 February 2011 8:18 AMTo: ACT_for_the_Public Subject: Re: Valued Life Bruce, Sorry to hear about your mood issue. A few comments follow. In your posts you use the terms " desired effect " , " potency " , " bounce " , " enjoyable " , " nothing works for long " , " sense of meaning " , " makes me feel better " , and " feel like I'm doing something valued " . These all refer to the goal of a change in mood or achieving a certain feeling. This goal is part and parcel of the other approaches you are trying, but should it be applied to your ACT work? My understanding is that ACT helps us release our tight grip on the feeling-based preconditions and evaluations which restrict our behavior. And I wonder if you are applying the above preconditions and evaluations--which are part and parcel of the other approaches you are trying--to the ACT processes and in so doing making an error? I think your post is interesting because it raises a fundamental question for me: what feelings should I pursue, e.g., should I try to have fun, try to experience joy, try to not feel shame, etc.? Should I pursue feelings? Should I do something/or avoid doing something because it makes me feel a certain way? One answer: do what you value. Another answer: obviously, yes, you should try to have fun, have joy, not feel meaningless. I think ACT gives us a way to try to steer through life where, sometimes, seeking feelings works in terms of living a valued life but, at other times, seeking feelings can really get in the way of a valued life. There's a kind of everything or nothing in the ACT books I've read with respect to willingness and seeking feeling. I often wonder if it's more rhetorical than actual--just like that chapter in the books that try to get us to admit that all the other solutions we've tried haven't worked. Well, some of those methods probably do work, or could work, given certain conditions etc. But the function of those chapters and the 100% approach to willingness is to achieve the effect of improvement, and that justifies the means. Getting someone to commit wholeheartedly to ACT and dedicate their resources to learning and doing it probably leads to better results, esp. because ACT runs counter to the feeling-orientation of people who suffer from unwanted feelings. I think the real world is not black and white but color. So, sometimes it's good to have those feeling goals in hand, but it's also good to be able to loosen the grip on them like when you were typing your message below with the sinking, grinding feeling that told you what was going to happen today. Oki To: ACT_for_the_Public Sent: Sun, February 13, 2011 9:48:27 AMSubject: Re: Valued Life Thank you to everyone for your messages this morning. I certainly appreciate the replies and I'm reading the posts with great interest. I did try Cymbalta a few months ago and that has been fine but has not achieved the desired effect, at least for me. Actually, I have tried various anti-depressants and other medications over the past 12 years. At first, Paxil was quite effective for me but over time it seems that SSRIs have lost their potency. I did feel like a different person when the Paxil was really working. I trust my doctor but I think we are both at a loss of what to try next. Regarding my values, I'm watching my daughter play basketball this afternoon and I have a 12-Step meeting tonight. Those are both highly valued activities for me and I'll very likely feel better when participating in them. But I can't demand my daughter play basketball all day or that I sit in meetings continually. My values of caring for my family and keeping my job prevent that. Right now, in the morning, I'm sitting here with the sinking, grinding feeling in my gut for no real reason except it's another day. I'm one of those people who gets up every morning looking forward to going to bed again at night. Until I leave for my daughter's game, my activities will be variations on surfing the Internet and staring out the window. It's " zoning out " as defined in the Happiness Trap but it's a lot of my life. I'm one of those people who has tried just about every one of the control strategies Russ mentions in that section of the book and he's right, nothing works for long. Right now, fish oil/Omega 3s, vitamin D and exercise are the factors I'm placing my hopes in. I figure they are good for my health even if they don't improve my mood. Strangely, I get no bounce from exercise. It's like my feel-good endorphins are not working. I guess my values place being a good dad at the top of the list and being a good husband to my wife. Being self-supporting through my job is also a big one. After that, it kind of drops off. I'm envious of people who can lose themselves in hobbies and causes. I'm nominally involved in several of these but they've lost any sense of real meaning. It's hard to even get myself to watch TV. Reading self-help books that offer some hope is my most enjoyable hobby. Anyway, thanks for reading this. It does make me feel better that there are people out there who can relate to what I'm going through and that some people are able to get to the other side. Bruce Hi Simone, I was thinking along those lines, too. It really sounds like a deeply ingrained depression that Bruce is experiencing, perhaps as a byproduct of anxiety, or in an of itself--they feed off of each other. I lived that way for years before getting back on track with the help of medication. I am grateful that I have a doctor who is anti-meds in general but sees their usefulness in certain individuals and monitors me carefully for unwanted side effects. Bruce, a few months back, I think you mentioned that you were going to try an anti depressant. How did that go? Do you have a doctor you totally trust in this regard? Helena Valued LifeTo: ACT_for_the_Public Date: Friday, 11 February, 2011, 20:16 Part of my problem is that I don't really know what a valued life looks like. I have a full life, if I list all my activities. I'm generally acting on my values. But even so, I have a lot of discretionary time and I don't really know what to do with it. I have a lot of time I'm obligated to be at work or home but no compelling next thing to do. So I struggle with procrastination and meaninglessness. If I just pick something to do, I have a hard time concentrating, sticking with it, and feeling like I'm doing something valued. It seems like this has been going on forever. And everything thing I do to get through this seems like a control activity.Thanks for any thoughts,Bruce

[Guest guest]

Thanks everyone for the reactions. I certainly was not offended by the medication suggestion. The messages have been helpful to me, regarding acceptance especially. As hard as I try not to, I judge how I feel as bad, and everything as depression or anxiety. It's a dark, rainy day here, I didn't sleep well last night, I have a cold, and it's another slow day at work. So maybe anyone would not feel their best. But I have such a fear of the sinking feeling of depression that I am constantly on guard against it. I guess that's what recovery would mean to me, that I could feel what I feel without being afraid. It's funny that I am afraid, as I've been dealing with this for upwards of 12 years. You'd think I'd learn that there's nothing to fear, that I can handle whatever comes along.Conscious thought doesn't seem to make much difference. I can have a happy thought in my head and still feel depression in my gut. I'm working right now on the willingness to feel that. I can accept that I have a cold and still function but it seems to be different with the gut. I'm working with the thought of the unwelcome guest at the party and allowing her to stay. My issue right now is that she'll stay all night.> >> > > Subject: Valued Life> > To: ACT_for_the_Public > > Date: Friday, 11 February, 2011, 20:16> >> >> > Part of my problem is that I don't really know what a valued life> > looks like. I have a full life, if I list all my activities. I'm> > generally acting on my values. But even so, I have a lot of> > discretionary time and I don't really know what to do with it. I have> > a lot of time I'm obligated to be at work or home but no compelling> > next thing to do. So I struggle with procrastination and> > meaninglessness. If I just pick something to do, I have a hard time> > concentrating, sticking with it, and feeling like I'm doing something> > valued. It seems like this has been going on forever. And everything> > thing I do to get through this seems like a control activity.> >> > Thanks for any thoughts,> > Bruce> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >>

[Guest guest]

Bruce - This post indicates you get it intellectually. And you are on the verge of feeling it -"You'd think I'd learn that there's nothing to fear, that I can handle whatever comes along."

The unwelcome guest is staying a lot longer than all night. But her power over how you feel about her comes from you. She is powerless to the extent you don't empower her by struggling with her.

Bill

To: ACT_for_the_Public From: onebnz@...Date: Mon, 14 Feb 2011 15:59:07 -0800Subject: Re: Re: Valued Life

Thanks everyone for the reactions. I certainly was not offended by the medication suggestion.

The messages have been helpful to me, regarding acceptance especially. As hard as I try not to, I judge how I feel as bad, and everything as depression or anxiety. It's a dark, rainy day here, I didn't sleep well last night, I have a cold, and it's another slow day at work. So maybe anyone would not feel their best. But I have such a fear of the sinking feeling of depression that I am constantly on guard against it. I guess that's what recovery would mean to me, that I could feel what I feel without being afraid. It's funny that I am afraid, as I've been dealing with this for upwards of 12 years. You'd think I'd learn that there's nothing to fear, that I can handle whatever comes along.

Conscious thought doesn't seem to make much difference. I can have a happy thought in my head and still feel depression in my gut. I'm working right now on the willingness to feel that. I can accept that I have a cold and still function but it seems to be different with the gut. I'm working with the thought of the unwelcome guest at the party and allowing her to stay. My issue right now is that she'll stay all night.

> >> > > Subject: Valued Life> > To: ACT_for_the_Public > > Date: Friday, 11 February, 2011, 20:16> >> >> > Part of my problem is that I don't really know what a valued life> > looks like. I have a full life, if I list all my activities. I'm> > generally acting on my values. But even so, I have a lot of> > discretionary time and I don't really know what to do with it. I have> > a lot of time I'm obligated to be at work or home but no compelling> > next thing to do. So I struggle with procrastination and> > meaninglessness. If I just pick something to do, I have a hard time> > concentrating, sticking with it, and feeling like I'm doing something> > valued. It seems like this has been going on forever. And everything> > thing I do to get through this seems like a control activity.> >> > Thanks for any thoughts,> > Bruce> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >>

[Guest guest]

Bruce,You mentioned that you attend a 12-step group. ( I won't ask you to disclose which one). Is your active participation in that fellowship something recent or long-term? And would you describe your involvement with the program and its members as casual or deep?12-step group members in my circle assure me that recovery from whatever got you in the door is marked by stages, some of which can feel quite disordered and painful, but that active step work and involvement with the program fellowship, particularly a trusted sponsor, can go a long way towards helping this, and also assisting you in seeing and living according to your values.Thanks!JimThanks everyone for the reactions. I certainly was not offended by the medication suggestion. The messages have been helpful to me, regarding acceptance especially. As hard as I try not to, I judge how I feel as bad, and everything as depression or anxiety. It's a dark, rainy day here, I didn't sleep well last night, I have a cold, and it's another slow day at work. So maybe anyone would not feel their best. But I have such a fear of the sinking feeling of depression that I am constantly on guard against it. I guess that's what recovery would mean to me, that I could feel what I feel without being afraid. It's funny that I am afraid, as I've been dealing with this for upwards of 12 years. You'd think I'd learn that there's nothing to fear, that I can handle whatever comes along.Conscious thought doesn't seem to make much difference. I can have a happy thought in my head and still feel depression in my gut. I'm working right now on the willingness to feel that. I can accept that I have a cold and still function but it seems to be different with the gut. I'm working with the thought of the unwelcome guest at the party and allowing her to stay. My issue right now is that she'll stay all night.> >> > > Subject: Valued Life> > To: ACT_for_the_Public > > Date: Friday, 11 February, 2011, 20:16> >> >> > Part of my problem is that I don't really know what a valued life> > looks like. I have a full life, if I list all my activities. I'm> > generally acting on my values. But even so, I have a lot of> > discretionary time and I don't really know what to do with it. I have> > a lot of time I'm obligated to be at work or home but no compelling> > next thing to do. So I struggle with procrastination and> > meaninglessness. If I just pick something to do, I have a hard time> > concentrating, sticking with it, and feeling like I'm doing something> > valued. It seems like this has been going on forever. And everything> > thing I do to get through this seems like a control activity.> >> > Thanks for any thoughts,> > Bruce> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >>

[Guest guest]

This is very helpful with it's specificity and example...resonates big time. I

felt I could actually breathe easier after reading this! Definitely going to try

this one on for size.

I appreciate the recent posts like this and 's that keep reminding to

slooow down and keep it really simple and stick with one key thing for starters.

Great for perfectionists like me.

I see this really as a form of self-compassion, radical self-acceptance. This

life of mine is a process after all.

And I like that the bit re: can always do more..leaves flexibility there to not

make this yet again a rule to fuse with.

Thanks !

peace,

Terry

(and may I say I'm quite inspired by the amazingly generous, creative and sorely

needed work you are doing there in the Delta region along with all of those in

ACT doing the matching funds thing with third world areas to empower/train

further in this work).

>

> > I just saw Simone's response but I'm sending this anyway. Bill

> >

> > Randy - I see your point about Simone's post. I took it differently. Bruce

said he didn't feel he had any values. Simone was trying to help him focus on

the very short term to discover something that might get him started on finding

some values. I don't think she was suggesting that he live his life as if he had

only a week to live but I guess I can see how that could be an interpretation.

> >

> > As far as Simone's post about kick-starting the brain with meds, I took it

more as her personal story about what worked for her rather than a prescription

for Bruce. Short of not saying anything at all, I find that pretty med-neutral.

> >

> > I think this is a case where Simone deserves the benefit of the doubt.

> >

> > Perhaps Bruce, you, me, and many others are expecting too much from the

values work. To the extent you are " doing some valued actions each day " I would

say you are living a valued life in your own way. Maybe not in the st yle of

Mother Theresa or Victor el, et al. But still valued. Maybe our values are

fine; we just need some defusion/acceptance/observing self/contact with the

present so the demons on our bus are no

> >

> > I've had some success in looking at my calendar and my checkbook to find

clues about what I value. Sometimes I just need to hone the committed action

plan to get the bus moving a bit faster in a valued direction. Then again, maybe

I should just be satisfied with the course and speed of my bus, at that moment.

Values work may be the holy grail if we carry it too far.

> >

> > > To: ACT_for_the_Public

> > > From: public@...

> > > Date: Sun, 13 Feb 2011 15:45:15 +0000

> > > Subject: Re: Valued Life

> > >

> > >

> > >

> > > Dear list,

> > >

> > > I find Bruce's question a great one, since I too often feel caught

> > > up in ennui, procrastination, etc. - even when I know I am also

> > > doing some valued actions each day.

> > >

> > > There may not be a " right " answer to his question. But I'm

> > > definitely underwhelmed by the two answers I've heard so far - (1)

> > > drugs and (2) pretending we have just a week left to live.

> > >

> > > Starting with #1: Indeed, Simone, I don't think any of us should be

> > > advising other list members to kickstart their brains with

> > > antidepressants. We're not doctors, and even doctors don't diagnose

> > > with so little information. My vote would be that we stick with a

> > > med-neutral policy on this list - which includes not attempting to

> > > prescribe for others.

> > >

> > > As for #2: Playing a game of " if I only had a week to live " sounds

> > > pretty similar to the " Attending Your Own Funeral " exercise in " Get

> > > Out of Your Mind " - with this important difference: many of our

> > > valued activities are done for the long term, not the short term.

> > > As an example, I just wrote a check for this summer's rent at my

> > > place in Woodstock, NY. That's money I would spend quite

> > > differently if I knew I had a week left to live. So I'm not sure

> > > how fruitful I would find fantasizing about a week left to live if

> > > I don't actually have a week left to live.

> > >

> > > Lest I sound harsh, let me add that I'm not doing any better in

> > > pondering Bruce's question. Maybe more mindfulness exercises would

> > > combat ennui. Or maybe it's just mental chatter to attack ourselves

> > > for not being absolutely 100 percent value -driven every moment of

> > > every day. I don't know. I'd love to hear something really creative

> > > & insightful & cool from someone else.

> > >

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[Guest guest]

Thanks for your comments, everyone. I am again staring out the window and trying to accept my feelings of tension, anxiety and fatigue. Accept, accept, accept, I tell myself yet I continue to struggle.Bill, thanks for the comments that you think I'm close to getting it. That gives me hope. Today is a tough day, as I am home without much to do. I feel kind of like the retiree who struggles to fill his days. Of course, there are infinite things to do and be interested in but nothing seems to satisfy.I really relate to caring, connection and contribution. Those are values to me. I just don't see enough opportunity for me to apply them. The problem seems to be that I need to be engaged in these values constantly or I immediately feel bad.thanks,BruceHi Bruce,Sorry to hear of your troubles. Here is something that may possibly help. While there are hundreds of different values, and no such thing as ‘right’ or ‘wrong’, almost all values grow from the soil of the big three Cs: caring, connection and contribution. Examine any value, and see if it’s not the case that to some degree it’s about caring (i.e. expressing concern or affection) about someone or something, connecting (i.e. engaging) with someone or something, and contributing (i.e. giving) to someone or something (including yourself of course).Now I’m going to suggest a different approach than the usual ACT approach; rather than trying to re-organise your day to fill it up with all sorts of values-guided activities or values-guided goals, instead keep doing what you’re doing in terms of activity – but see if you can infuse that activity with one or more of the three Cs, and see what happens. For example, When you’re staring out the window, can you truly connect with the view; notice the details; turn it into a mindfulness practice; and can you find something out there to care about – the birds or the trees or the weather? Or can you connect with yourself as you look out that window - notice your body and how you are holding it? Can you contribute to yourself in some way as you stare out that window: do some gentle stretching or mindful breathing, or have some meaningful music playing? When you’re surfing the internet, can you find something there to care about or contribute – Just as you contribute to this forum, and your posts reveal some of what you care about? Can you periodically connect with your body amidst the surfing – take a break and stretch etc?These are just examples; I’m curious to see what you can come up with and what difference it will make to your day to keep bringing those qualities of caring, connection and contribution in to your routine. All the best,Cheers,Russ www.actmindfully.com.auwww.thehappinesstrap.com From: ACT_for_the_Public [mailto:ACT_for_the_Public ] On Behalf Of O KisutchSent: Monday, 14 February 2011 8:18 AMTo: ACT_for_the_Public Subject: Re: Valued Life Bruce, Sorry to hear about your mood issue. A few comments follow. In your posts you use the terms "desired effect", "potency", "bounce", "enjoyable", "nothing works for long", "sense of meaning", "makes me feel better", and "feel like I'm doing something valued". These all refer to the goal of a change in mood or achieving a certain feeling. This goal is part and parcel of the other approaches you are trying, but should it be applied to your ACT work? My understanding is that ACT helps us release our tight grip on the feeling-based preconditions and evaluations which restrict our behavior. And I wonder if you are applying the above preconditions and evaluations--which are part and parcel of the other approaches you are trying--to the ACT processes and in so doing making an error? I think your post is interesting because it raises a fundamental question for me: what feelings should I pursue, e.g., should I try to have fun, try to experience joy, try to not feel shame, etc.? Should I pursue feelings? Should I do something/or avoid doing something because it makes me feel a certain way? One answer: do what you value. Another answer: obviously, yes, you should try to have fun, have joy, not feel meaningless. I think ACT gives us a way to try to steer through life where, sometimes, seeking feelings works in terms of living a valued life but, at other times, seeking feelings can really get in the way of a valued life. There's a kind of everything or nothing in the ACT books I've read with respect to willingness and seeking feeling. I often wonder if it's more rhetorical than actual--just like that chapter in the books that try to get us to admit that all the other solutions we've tried haven't worked. Well, some of those methods probably do work, or could work, given certain conditions etc. But the function of those chapters and the 100% approach to willingness is to achieve the effect of improvement, and that justifies the means. Getting someone to commit wholeheartedly to ACT and dedicate their resources to learning and doing it probably leads to better results, esp. because ACT runs counter to the feeling-orientation of people who suffer from unwanted feelings. I think the real world is not black and white but color. So, sometimes it's good to have those feeling goals in hand, but it's also good to be able to loosen the grip on them like when you were typing your message below with the sinking, grinding feeling that told you what was going to happen today. Oki To: ACT_for_the_Public Sent: Sun, February 13, 2011 9:48:27 AMSubject: Re: Valued Life Thank you to everyone for your messages this morning. I certainly appreciate the replies and I'm reading the posts with great interest. I did try Cymbalta a few months ago and that has been fine but has not achieved the desired effect, at least for me. Actually, I have tried various anti-depressants and other medications over the past 12 years. At first, Paxil was quite effective for me but over time it seems that SSRIs have lost their potency. I did feel like a different person when the Paxil was really working. I trust my doctor but I think we are both at a loss of what to try next. Regarding my values, I'm watching my daughter play basketball this afternoon and I have a 12-Step meeting tonight. Those are both highly valued activities for me and I'll very likely feel better when participating in them. But I can't demand my daughter play basketball all day or that I sit in meetings continually. My values of caring for my family and keeping my job prevent that. Right now, in the morning, I'm sitting here with the sinking, grinding feeling in my gut for no real reason except it's another day. I'm one of those people who gets up every morning looking forward to going to bed again at night. Until I leave for my daughter's game, my activities will be variations on surfing the Internet and staring out the window. It's "zoning out" as defined in the Happiness Trap but it's a lot of my life. I'm one of those people who has tried just about every one of the control strategies Russ mentions in that section of the book and he's right, nothing works for long. Right now, fish oil/Omega 3s, vitamin D and exercise are the factors I'm placing my hopes in. I figure they are good for my health even if they don't improve my mood. Strangely, I get no bounce from exercise. It's like my feel-good endorphins are not working. I guess my values place being a good dad at the top of the list and being a good husband to my wife. Being self-supporting through my job is also a big one. After that, it kind of drops off. I'm envious of people who can lose themselves in hobbies and causes. I'm nominally involved in several of these but they've lost any sense of real meaning. It's hard to even get myself to watch TV. Reading self-help books that offer some hope is my most enjoyable hobby. Anyway, thanks for reading this. It does make me feel better that there are people out there who can relate to what I'm going through and that some people are able to get to the other side. Bruce Hi Simone, I was thinking along those lines, too. It really sounds like a deeply ingrained depression that Bruce is experiencing, perhaps as a byproduct of anxiety, or in an of itself--they feed off of each other. I lived that way for years before getting back on track with the help of medication. I am grateful that I have a doctor who is anti-meds in general but sees their usefulness in certain individuals and monitors me carefully for unwanted side effects. Bruce, a few months back, I think you mentioned that you were going to try an anti depressant. How did that go? Do you have a doctor you totally trust in this regard? Helena Valued LifeTo: ACT_for_the_Public Date: Friday, 11 February, 2011, 20:16 Part of my problem is that I don't really know what a valued life looks like. I have a full life, if I list all my activities. I'm generally acting on my values. But even so, I have a lot of discretionary time and I don't really know what to do with it. I have a lot of time I'm obligated to be at work or home but no compelling next thing to do. So I struggle with procrastination and meaninglessness. If I just pick something to do, I have a hard time concentrating, sticking with it, and feeling like I'm doing something valued. It seems like this has been going on forever. And everything thing I do to get through this seems like a control activity.Thanks for any thoughts,Bruce

[Guest guest]

One suggestion: Perhaps you could attend more 12 step meetings and work on making yourself available by giving out your number to newcomers? Despite your emotional ups and downs you DO have something to offer them: a long-ish period of abstinence from the behaviors that brought you in the rooms to begin with. Your insight on how you are able to keep your recovery going despite your emotional pain would be a great help to some struggling person. And that would cover all 3 Cs.