Re: Re: what to do with thoughts

February 17, 2011

Just curious, Haakon ... have you discussed your rapid mood swings with your doctor? I had rapid mood swings when I was younger and was diagnosed with rapid cycling bipolar disorder. I'm practically symptom free now, though. Don't worry - this doesn't mean you have it, but it is something you might want to mention to your doc, if you haven't already.

Helena

Re: what to do with thoughts

it's strange how moods change. today i have gone from down in a well to really high up with no apparent reason. it's a little scary. i get afraid of going back down again, so i might want to avoid things etetc. it's funny. word mode again. i never signed up for this when i learned to read. haakon> > >> > > They are thoughts, but they are not you. The more you practice with exercises such as "leaves on a stream" or "labeling of thoughts and feelings" they more you start to see that you the observer, and the thoughts as passing guests in your space. You need to give it some time, and if possible daily practice. If I were you whatever the thought I would say "its a thought", however demanding and important the mind tells you it is. Sometimes you will get distracted without even noticing, Ã‚ as soon as you become aware you can say to yourself kindly "thank you for returning to awareness" and continue. It doesn't matter how many times you distract or even buy into a thought, the only thing that matters is that you are willing to go back to awareness again and again. With time you will be better and better at it XXX> > > > > > ______________________Signature: Mrs Em EquanimityÃ‚ > > > This is my personal blog where I record my experience applying Acceptance Commitment Therapy to my anxiety and agoraphobia in particular, and my life in general. Feel free to browse.Ã‚ > > > > > > http://eyeofthehurricane-act.blogspot.com/> > > > > > --- El jue, 17/2/11, HÃƒÆ’Ã‚Â¥kon sen <hkoneriksen@> escribiÃƒÂ³:> > > > > > De: HÃƒÆ’Ã‚Â¥kon sen <hkoneriksen@>> > > Asunto: what to do with thoughts> > > Para: ACT_for_the_Public > > > Fecha: jueves, 17 de febrero, 2011 13:01> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Ã‚ > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > i usually meditate every day, and often it is very uncomfortable. at least these days. i get a lot of thoughts, and some of them claim to be true, they say: "you will have to look into this and fix this". i am not sure how to defuse from these. they say "this noticing of thoughts does not have an effect, and you're doing it wrong, you might as well quit". my mind takes a specific situation, like i wsant to visit a friend of mine, who lives in another city, and he says "you can't do it, cause you will feel like a failure, you have to find out who you are first, you have to figure it out", and then it throws on more stuff, just to complicate matters. it says "you are no one, you are just a chameleon with no inner life, no power, no confidence, you are a ridiculous, little piece of shit". hehe...my mind is quite a character.> > > > > > > > > > > > the thoughts that are most likely to hook me, are the ones that say "this is true, it is serious, and it debilitates you". this is for example "you have no personality" and "if you don't understand why you can't be close to another human being, your life will be shit".> > > > > > > > > > > > today i imagined a big pot of thought stew cooking, and i was tossing my thoughts into it. but i am afraid of throwing away some of them. they seem like a matter of life and death. i should just throw them in the pot, right? i'm not always sure what to do with them. how much respect should they get?> > > > > > > > > > > > haakon> > >> >>

February 17, 2011

That is a very healthy "rapid mood change"

Helena

Re: what to do with thoughts

I can certainly relate to that "rapid mood change" when defusion works and a thought that seemed overwhelming and true is suddenly seen as just a thought:: just another bunch of words in the mind's endless ongoing narrative. The sense of relief that arises at that moment is really great.

February 17, 2011

Good for you! -- for realizing that meds aren't for everybody -- and don't let anyone talk you into them against your wishes.

Helena Re: what to do with thoughts

hey, helena and detlef.i have taken medication for bipolar disorder in the past, but it had no effect. no medication i have taken has had any effect. i'm sorry to say. i do not want to take any more drugs ever. it feels like a big scam to me. and whenever i'm at my weakest, they come dragging this new drug, which has yielded promising results or whatever. the last drug i took was supposed to be anti-depressant AND take care of my social anxiety, and of course it didn't work. that was the rant. i am glad to be in a good mood now, and it is not mania, it's just been so long that i am afraid of rushing back.something just happened today with defusion, i found that i could actually defuse from some really painful thoughts, the intense thoughts of having to understand and fix my ever larger problems with myself, my own personality, my social insecurity, my stupidity, the list goes on. i was able to let go of them for now, and it gave me a window to catch my breath, and it felt very good. i think i understood that i will experience pain in the future, i have experienced pain in the past, but by doing what i did today i can avoid enhancing it to no avail. usually it comes back, though. we'll see tomorrow.haakon > > > > > > > > They are thoughts, but they are not you. The more you practice with exercises such as "leaves on a stream" or "labeling of thoughts and feelings" they more you start to see that you the observer, and the thoughts as passing guests in your space. You need to give it some time, and if possible daily practice. If I were you whatever the thought I would say "its a thought", however demanding and important the mind tells you it is. Sometimes you will get distracted without even noticing, Ãƒâ€šÃ‚ as soon as you become aware you can say to yourself kindly "thank you for returning to awareness" and continue. It doesn't matter how many times you distract or even buy into a thought, the only thing that matters is that you are willing to go back to awareness again and again. With time you will be better and better at it XXX > > > > > > > > ______________________Signature: Mrs Em EquanimityÃƒâ€šÃ‚ > > > > This is my personal blog where I record my experience applying Acceptance Commitment Therapy to my anxiety and agoraphobia in particular, and my life in general. Feel free to browse.Ãƒâ€šÃ‚ > > > > > > > > http://eyeofthehurricane-act.blogspot.com/ > > > > > > > > --- El jue, 17/2/11, HÃƒÆ’Ã†'Ãƒâ€šÃ‚Â¥kon sen <hkoneriksen@> escribiÃƒÆ’Ã‚Â³: > > > > > > > > De: HÃƒÆ’Ã†'Ãƒâ€šÃ‚Â¥kon sen <hkoneriksen@> > > > > Asunto: what to do with thoughts > > > > Para: ACT_for_the_Public > > > > Fecha: jueves, 17 de febrero, 2011 13:01 > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Ãƒâ€šÃ‚ > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > i usually meditate every day, and often it is very uncomfortable. at least these days. i get a lot of thoughts, and some of them claim to be true, they say: "you will have to look into this and fix this". i am not sure how to defuse from these. they say "this noticing of thoughts does not have an effect, and you're doing it wrong, you might as well quit". my mind takes a specific situation, like i wsant to visit a friend of mine, who lives in another city, and he says "you can't do it, cause you will feel like a failure, you have to find out who you are first, you have to figure it out", and then it throws on more stuff, just to complicate matters. it says "you are no one, you are just a chameleon with no inner life, no power, no confidence, you are a ridiculous, little piece of shit". hehe...my mind is quite a character. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > the thoughts that are most likely to hook me, are the ones that say "this is true, it is serious, and it debilitates you". this is for example "you have no personality" and "if you don't understand why you can't be close to another human being, your life will be shit". > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > today i imagined a big pot of thought stew cooking, and i was tossing my thoughts into it. but i am afraid of throwing away some of them. they seem like a matter of life and death. i should just throw them in the pot, right? i'm not always sure what to do with them. how much respect should they get? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > haakon > > > > > > > > >>

February 17, 2011

I describe this an an ACT ahaaa moment. Take them one at a time.

To: ACT_for_the_Public From: jim.ryan@...Date: Thu, 17 Feb 2011 15:09:20 -0500Subject: Re: what to do with thoughts

I can certainly relate to that "rapid mood change" when defusion works and a thought that seemed overwhelming and true is suddenly seen as just a thought:: just another bunch of words in the mind's endless ongoing narrative. The sense of relief that arises at that moment is really great.

February 17, 2011

HaakonYou definitely have a sense of humor!!Sent from my iPhone

hahahaha "I never signed up for this when I learned to read"

> > > >

> > > > They are thoughts, but they are not you. The more you practice with exercises such as "leaves on a stream" or "labeling of thoughts and feelings" they more you start to see that you the observer, and the thoughts as passing guests in your space. You need to give it some time, and if possible daily practice. If I were you whatever the thought I would say "its a thought", however demanding and important the mind tells you it is. Sometimes you will get distracted without even noticing, Ã‚ as soon as you become aware you can say to yourself kindly "thank you for returning to awareness" and continue. It doesn't matter how many times you distract or even buy into a thought, the only thing that matters is that you are willing to go back to awareness again and again. With time you will be better and better at it XXX

> > > >

> > > > ______________________Signature: Mrs Em EquanimityÃ‚

> > > > This is my personal blog where I record my experience applying Acceptance Commitment Therapy to my anxiety and agoraphobia in particular, and my life in general. Feel free to browse.Ã‚

> > > >

> > > > http://eyeofthehurricane-act.blogspot.com/

> > > >

> > > > --- El jue, 17/2/11, HÃƒÆ’Ã‚Â¥kon sen <hkoneriksen@> escribiÃƒÂ³:

> > > >

> > > > De: HÃƒÆ’Ã‚Â¥kon sen <hkoneriksen@>

> > > > Asunto: what to do with thoughts

> > > > Para: ACT_for_the_Public

> > > > Fecha: jueves, 17 de febrero, 2011 13:01

> > > >

> > > > Ã‚

> > > >

> > > > i usually meditate every day, and often it is very uncomfortable. at least these days. i get a lot of thoughts, and some of them claim to be true, they say: "you will have to look into this and fix this". i am not sure how to defuse from these. they say "this noticing of thoughts does not have an effect, and you're doing it wrong, you might as well quit". my mind takes a specific situation, like i wsant to visit a friend of mine, who lives in another city, and he says "you can't do it, cause you will feel like a failure, you have to find out who you are first, you have to figure it out", and then it throws on more stuff, just to complicate matters. it says "you are no one, you are just a chameleon with no inner life, no power, no confidence, you are a ridiculous, little piece of shit". hehe...my mind is quite a character.

> > > >

> > > > the thoughts that are most likely to hook me, are the ones that say "this is true, it is serious, and it debilitates you". this is for example "you have no personality" and "if you don't understand why you can't be close to another human being, your life will be shit".

> > > >

> > > > today i imagined a big pot of thought stew cooking, and i was tossing my thoughts into it. but i am afraid of throwing away some of them. they seem like a matter of life and death. i should just throw them in the pot, right? i'm not always sure what to do with them. how much respect should they get?

> > > >

> > > > haakon

> > > >

> > >

> >

>

February 18, 2011

Same with me for Valium. I took comfort just from knowing I could take it if I needed it. Still have 23 of the 30 prescribed three years ago. They have been to many interesting places in my suit case.

Bill

> To: ACT_for_the_Public > Date: Fri, 18 Feb 2011 17:36:48 +0000> Subject: Re: what to do with thoughts> > I used to take a fraction of the lowest form on Xanax once in a blue moon....just that tiny amount would be enough to take the edge off and create some distance From the anxiety I was experiencing..> > So, while I am generally anti med, I wouldn't necessarily completely vilify it either > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > They are thoughts, but they are not you. The more you practice with exercises such as "leaves on a stream" or "labeling of thoughts and feelings" they more you start to see that you the observer, and the thoughts as passing guests in your space. You need to give it some time, and if possible daily practice. If I were you whatever the thought I would say "its a thought", however demanding and important the mind tells you it is. Sometimes you will get distracted without even noticing, Ã‚Â as soon as you become aware you can say to yourself kindly "thank you for returning to awareness" and continue. It doesn't matter how many times you distract or even buy into a thought, the only thing that matters is that you are willing to go back to awareness again and again. With time you will be better and better at it XXX > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ______________________Signature: Mrs Em EquanimityÃ‚Â > > > > > > > This is my personal blog where I record my experience applying Acceptance Commitment Therapy to my anxiety and agoraphobia in particular, and my life in general. Feel free to browse.Ã‚Â > > > > > > > > > > > > > > http://eyeofthehurricane-act.blogspot.com/ > > > > > > > > > > > > > > --- El jue, 17/2/11, HÃƒÆ'Ã‚Â¥kon sen <hkoneriksen@> escribiÃƒÂ³: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > De: HÃƒÆ'Ã‚Â¥kon sen <hkoneriksen@> > > > > > > > Asunto: what to do with thoughts > > > > > > > Para: ACT_for_the_Public > > > > > > > Fecha: jueves, 17 de febrero, 2011 13:01 > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Ã‚Â > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > i usually meditate every day, and often it is very uncomfortable. at least these days. i get a lot of thoughts, and some of them claim to be true, they say: "you will have to look into this and fix this". i am not sure how to defuse from these. they say "this noticing of thoughts does not have an effect, and you're doing it wrong, you might as well quit". my mind takes a specific situation, like i wsant to visit a friend of mine, who lives in another city, and he says "you can't do it, cause you will feel like a failure, you have to find out who you are first, you have to figure it out", and then it throws on more stuff, just to complicate matters. it says "you are no one, you are just a chameleon with no inner life, no power, no confidence, you are a ridiculous, little piece of shit". hehe...my mind is quite a character. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > the thoughts that are most likely to hook me, are the ones that say "this is true, it is serious, and it debilitates you". this is for example "you have no personality" and "if you don't understand why you can't be close to another human being, your life will be shit". > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > today i imagined a big pot of thought stew cooking, and i was tossing my thoughts into it. but i am afraid of throwing away some of them. they seem like a matter of life and death. i should just throw them in the pot, right? i'm not always sure what to do with them. how much respect should they get? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > haakon > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >> > > >> > >> >> > > > > ------------------------------------> > For other ACT materials and list serves see www.contextualpsychology.org> > If you do not wish to belong to ACT_for_the_Public, you may > unsubscribe by sending an email to > ACT_for_the_Public-unsubscribe@...! Groups Links> > <*> To visit your group on the web, go to:> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/ACT_for_the_Public/> > <*> Your email settings:> Individual Email | Traditional> > <*> To change settings online go to:> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/ACT_for_the_Public/join> (Yahoo! ID required)> > <*> To change settings via email:> ACT_for_the_Public-digest > ACT_for_the_Public-fullfeatured > > <*>

February 18, 2011

Hi Haakon:I certainly get scared when I'm defusing. Mostly its fear that it won't work.Right now, I'm defusing that I shouldn't feel this way, that there is something deeply wrong with me, that when I feel the fear I can only sit in a shell and stew on it, that I can't handle life and someday I'll be exposed.Bruce> > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > They are thoughts, but they are not you. The more you practice with exercises such as "leaves on a stream" or "labeling of thoughts and feelings" they more you start to see that you the observer, and the thoughts as passing guests in your space. You need to give it some time, and if possible daily practice. If I were you whatever the thought I would say "its a thought", however demanding and important the mind tells you it is. Sometimes you will get distracted without even noticing, Ã‚ as soon as you become aware you can say to yourself kindly "thank you for returning to awareness" and continue. It doesn't matter how many times you distract or even buy into a thought, the only thing that matters is that you are willing to go back to awareness again and again. With time you will be better and better at it XXX> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ______________________Signature: Mrs Em EquanimityÃ‚ > > > > > > > > This is my personal blog where I record my experience applying Acceptance Commitment Therapy to my anxiety and agoraphobia in particular, and my life in general. Feel free to browse.Ã‚ > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > http://eyeofthehurricane-act.blogspot.com/> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > --- El jue, 17/2/11, HÃƒï¿½'Ã‚Â¥kon sen <hkoneriksen@> escribiÃƒÂ³:> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > De: HÃƒï¿½'Ã‚Â¥kon sen <hkoneriksen@>> > > > > > > > Asunto: what to do with thoughts> > > > > > > > Para: ACT_for_the_Public > > > > > > > > Fecha: jueves, 17 de febrero, 2011 13:01> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Ã‚ > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > i usually meditate every day, and often it is very uncomfortable. at least these days. i get a lot of thoughts, and some of them claim to be true, they say: "you will have to look into this and fix this". i am not sure how to defuse from these. they say "this noticing of thoughts does not have an effect, and you're doing it wrong, you might as well quit". my mind takes a specific situation, like i wsant to visit a friend of mine, who lives in another city, and he says "you can't do it, cause you will feel like a failure, you have to find out who you are first, you have to figure it out", and then it throws on more stuff, just to complicate matters. it says "you are no one, you are just a chameleon with no inner life, no power, no confidence, you are a ridiculous, little piece of shit". hehe...my mind is quite a character.> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > the thoughts that are most likely to hook me, are the ones that say "this is true, it is serious, and it debilitates you". this is for example "you have no personality" and "if you don't understand why you can't be close to another human being, your life will be shit".> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > today i imagined a big pot of thought stew cooking, and i was tossing my thoughts into it. but i am afraid of throwing away some of them. they seem like a matter of life and death. i should just throw them in the pot, right? i'm not always sure what to do with them. how much respect should they get?> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > haakon> > > > > > > >> > > > > > >> > > > > >> > > > >> > > > > > > >> > >> >>

February 18, 2011

Hi haak,

Please forgive me if asking this question is too intrusive or too personal. You don't have to answer. Are you using any alcohol or mind-altering substances?

Helena

Re: what to do with thoughts

and what's wrong with me if i can't enjoy myself when i am with friends? i just whine, get jealous, edgy, irritable. most people like spending time with their friends, right? i'm buying into my stuff, now. excuse me. talk to you later.haak> > > > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > > > They are thoughts, but they are not you. The more> > you practice with exercises such as "leaves on a stream" or "labeling of> > thoughts and feelings" they more you start to see that you the observer,> > and the thoughts as passing guests in your space. You need to give it> > some time, and if possible daily practice. If I were you whatever the> > thought I would say "its a thought", however demanding and important the> > mind tells you it is. Sometimes you will get distracted without even> > noticing, Ãƒâ€š as soon as you become aware you can say to yourself> > kindly "thank you for returning to awareness" and continue. It doesn't> > matter how many times you distract or even buy into a thought, the only> > thing that matters is that you are willing to go back to awareness again> > and again. With time you will be better and better at it XXX> > > > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > > > ______________________Signature: Mrs Em> > EquanimityÃƒâ€š> > > > > > > > > > > > This is my personal blog where I record my> > experience applying Acceptance Commitment Therapy to my anxiety and> > agoraphobia in particular, and my life in general. Feel free to> > browse.Ãƒâ€š> > > > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > > > http://eyeofthehurricane-act.blogspot.com/> > > > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > > > --- El jue, 17/2/11, HÃƒÆ’Ã¯Â¿Â½'Ãƒâ€šÃ‚Â¥kon sen> > <hkoneriksen@> escribiÃƒÆ’Ã‚Â³:> > > > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > > > De: HÃƒÆ’Ã¯Â¿Â½'Ãƒâ€šÃ‚Â¥kon sen <hkoneriksen@>> > > > > > > > > > > > Asunto: what to do with> > thoughts> > > > > > > > > > > > Para: ACT_for_the_Public > > > > > > > > > > > > Fecha: jueves, 17 de febrero, 2011 13:01> > > > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > > > Ãƒâ€š> > > > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > > > i usually meditate every day, and often it is very> > uncomfortable. at least these days. i get a lot of thoughts, and some of> > them claim to be true, they say: "you will have to look into this and> > fix this". i am not sure how to defuse from these. they say "this> > noticing of thoughts does not have an effect, and you're doing it wrong,> > you might as well quit". my mind takes a specific situation, like i> > wsant to visit a friend of mine, who lives in another city, and he says> > "you can't do it, cause you will feel like a failure, you have to find> > out who you are first, you have to figure it out", and then it throws on> > more stuff, just to complicate matters. it says "you are no one, you are> > just a chameleon with no inner life, no power, no confidence, you are a> > ridiculous, little piece of shit". hehe...my mind is quite a character.> > > > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > > > the thoughts that are most likely to hook me, are> > the ones that say "this is true, it is serious, and it debilitates you".> > this is for example "you have no personality" and "if you don't> > understand why you can't be close to another human being, your life will> > be shit".> > > > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > > > today i imagined a big pot of thought stew cooking,> > and i was tossing my thoughts into it. but i am afraid of throwing away> > some of them. they seem like a matter of life and death. i should just> > throw them in the pot, right? i'm not always sure what to do with them.> > how much respect should they get?> > > > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > > > haakon> > > > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > >> > > > > > > >> > > > > > >> > > > > >> > > > >> > > >> > >> >>

February 18, 2011

Thanks! I am relieved -- because I personally know how using stuff can mess you up.

I appreciate your honesty and not getting upset by the question.

You are real cool, IMO. You don't even have to try. You just are. Just be your precious self.

Helena

Re: what to do with thoughts

no problem. i don't. clean as a whistle. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > They are thoughts, but they are not you. The more > > > you practice with exercises such as "leaves on a stream" or "labeling of > > > thoughts and feelings" they more you start to see that you the observer, > > > and the thoughts as passing guests in your space. You need to give it > > > some time, and if possible daily practice. If I were you whatever the > > > thought I would say "its a thought", however demanding and important the > > > mind tells you it is. Sometimes you will get distracted without even > > > noticing, ÃƒÆ’Ã¢â‚¬Å¡ as soon as you become aware you can say to yourself > > > kindly "thank you for returning to awareness" and continue. It doesn't > > > matter how many times you distract or even buy into a thought, the only > > > thing that matters is that you are willing to go back to awareness again > > > and again. With time you will be better and better at it XXX > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ______________________Signature: Mrs Em > > > EquanimityÃƒÆ’Ã¢â‚¬Å¡ > > > > > > > > > > > > > This is my personal blog where I record my > > > experience applying Acceptance Commitment Therapy to my anxiety and > > > agoraphobia in particular, and my life in general. Feel free to > > > browse.ÃƒÆ’Ã¢â‚¬Å¡ > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > http://eyeofthehurricane-act.blogspot.com/ > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > --- El jue, 17/2/11, HÃƒÆ’Ã†'ÃƒÂ¯Ã‚Â¿Ã‚Â½'ÃƒÆ’Ã¢â‚¬Å¡Ãƒâ€šÃ‚Â¥kon sen > > > <hkoneriksen@> escribiÃƒÆ’Ã†'Ãƒâ€šÃ‚Â³: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > De: HÃƒÆ’Ã†'ÃƒÂ¯Ã‚Â¿Ã‚Â½'ÃƒÆ’Ã¢â‚¬Å¡Ãƒâ€šÃ‚Â¥kon sen <hkoneriksen@> > > > > > > > > > > > > > Asunto: what to do with > > > thoughts > > > > > > > > > > > > > Para: ACT_for_the_Public > > > > > > > > > > > > > Fecha: jueves, 17 de febrero, 2011 13:01 > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ÃƒÆ’Ã¢â‚¬Å¡ > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > i usually meditate every day, and often it is very > > > uncomfortable. at least these days. i get a lot of thoughts, and some of > > > them claim to be true, they say: "you will have to look into this and > > > fix this". i am not sure how to defuse from these. they say "this > > > noticing of thoughts does not have an effect, and you're doing it wrong, > > > you might as well quit". my mind takes a specific situation, like i > > > wsant to visit a friend of mine, who lives in another city, and he says > > > "you can't do it, cause you will feel like a failure, you have to find > > > out who you are first, you have to figure it out", and then it throws on > > > more stuff, just to complicate matters. it says "you are no one, you are > > > just a chameleon with no inner life, no power, no confidence, you are a > > > ridiculous, little piece of shit". hehe...my mind is quite a character. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > the thoughts that are most likely to hook me, are > > > the ones that say "this is true, it is serious, and it debilitates you". > > > this is for example "you have no personality" and "if you don't > > > understand why you can't be close to another human being, your life will > > > be shit". > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > today i imagined a big pot of thought stew cooking, > > > and i was tossing my thoughts into it. but i am afraid of throwing away > > > some of them. they seem like a matter of life and death. i should just > > > throw them in the pot, right? i'm not always sure what to do with them. > > > how much respect should they get? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > haakon > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >>

February 19, 2011

Words of advice and encouragement are good, but, to me, it sounds like saying "Just do it." Just realize you are not your thoughts. Just love the child that is you. Don't resist; just accept and be willing. It's like telling an addicted person to "just stop using." The "how" is missing. That's why doing the ACT exercises and following the tenets of ACT regarding values, etc., is so key--for me, at least. I'm sure there may be some people out there who can just "talk" themselves well--who can let go of resistance and embrace acceptance quite easily--but I don't think we'd be on this forum if that had worked for us in the past.

Such words have their place and can be very helpful. But they are weak tools on their own. The creators/authors of ACT have provided instructions and exercises to do -- it's pretty much all spelled out. You do have to read at least one of the ACT books and practice the exercises, however. You need to build your toolkit, as Bill often says. You won't get very far from the posts alone. ACT does require action. The magic of ACT is in the doing, not in the thinking.

I first learned ACT it on the fly by reading the ACT posts but it wasn't until I seriously read the books and followed the exercises that it "clicked" for me--the "how" made sense only then. I've been reading and re-reading The Happiness Trap and Get Out of Your Mind... for the past two years, and I am now ready for Your Life on Purpose. It wasn't until now that I decided that I really wanted, or could attain, living my life purposely. This is not a quickie therapy! But the rewards are amazing if you just keep taking those small steps.

Helena

Re: what to do with thoughts

If you were your kid, you think you could accept him?Now think of that fearful, insecure side of you, as you as a child, where you picked all this stuff up, most likely from a lack of love, security, etc...Now, when it comes up...you think you can love and accept that child...or are you going to keep on trying to ignore, resist, and push him away?Be the person you have been looking for..>> i have thought about it a little now, and it is true that i am trying not to feel anxiety. but how do i respond in the situation? i am going back to work tomorrow, and i am not looking forward to it.> > i always try to come across as cool, and when i can't ,i beat myself up. being cool feels like my life raft, stupid as it may sound. i feel a strong resistance when i think about letting others see my anxiety. and it makes me angry, it feels like THEY are doing it to me.> > how do i know if i am willing? i understand that i need lots of training. willing to feel one's anxiety is not the same as being totally subdued, is it? that's the primary source of resistance, i guess. > > when i think about it, nothing has ever made me as angry as when someone tells me to accept myself as i am.> > thanks for the concern, kaivey. and thanks to (vcferrara? forgot your first name) for some really good stuff.> > haakon

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February 19, 2011

VC, your post just got me thinking. My response, however, was not directed at you personally or your post. It was not a criticism of you or of anyone. The child perspective is very useful and helpful and you were right to bring that in; helped me a lot with that perspective in the past. You have a lot of wisdom and I'm sorry if you felt attacked. That was not in my heart.

Not sure what you mean by: your defense is strong of anything that doesn't fall exactly in line with what the ACT books tell you. What I meant is, if you want to do ACT, you need to learn ACT and follow it, but not at the expense of anything else that works for you. I use lots of other ideas in my personal growth plan.

Helena

Re: what to do with thoughts

wasn't what I was saying at all, but thanks for your inputhe is asking about self-love, and I was trying to show him a different perspective, that might help him start seeing how he could start loving and accepting his "self"...even Russ just recently used a child analogy your defense is strong of anything that doesn't fall exactly in line with what the ACT books tell youand yes, I know you don't mean any harm, just like nobody else does when they react criticallyI done ACT principles plenty, even before I read the book...but there has also been plenty of other things I have picked up on the journeyIf you have a problem with that, keep it to yourself > > > > i have thought about it a little now, and it is true that i am trying not to feel anxiety. but how do i respond in the situation? i am going back to work tomorrow, and i am not looking forward to it. > > > > i always try to come across as cool, and when i can't ,i beat myself up. being cool feels like my life raft, stupid as it may sound. i feel a strong resistance when i think about letting others see my anxiety. and it makes me angry, it feels like THEY are doing it to me. > > > > how do i know if i am willing? i understand that i need lots of training. willing to feel one's anxiety is not the same as being totally subdued, is it? that's the primary source of resistance, i guess. > > > > when i think about it, nothing has ever made me as angry as when someone tells me to accept myself as i am. > > > > thanks for the concern, kaivey . and thanks to ( vcferrara ? forgot your first name) for some really good stuff. > > > > haakon > > Recent Activity: > > Ã¢â‚¬Â¢ New Members 6 > > > Visit Your Group > For other ACT materials and list serves see www . contextualpsychology .org > > If you do not wish to belong to ACT_for_the_Public, you may > unsubscribe by sending an email to > ACT_for_the_Public- unsubscribe @ yahoogroups .com > Yahoo! Groups> Switch to: Text-Only , Daily Digest Ã¢â‚¬Â¢ Unsubscribe Ã¢â‚¬Â¢ Terms of Use > > > .>

February 19, 2011

How much can acceptance of childhood issues help in ACT?For example, I have a stutter and with all the publicity about the movie The King's Speech, there is a lot of talk about how difficult life is for stutterers. All this rings true for me, but I have never done any kind of emotional processing on how stuttering affects me. I've always kind of had to either bull through it or avoid difficult situations. That doesn't sound like ACT but it's what's gotten me this far.One situation I definitely avoid is verbal confrontation, as a stutterer is always at a distinct disadvantage. Unfortunately, I live with people who say what they think so I have tendency to feel under siege. But this has gone on for a period of years so why I haven't/can't accept this is a mystery.Acceptance on this issue seems to mean the terrible frustration of stuttering or of not being heard by other people. Anyway, thanks for any thoughts...BruceIf you were your kid, you think you could accept him?Now think of that fearful, insecure side of you, as you as a child, where you picked all this stuff up, most likely from a lack of love, security, etc...Now, when it comes up...you think you can love and accept that child...or are you going to keep on trying to ignore, resist, and push him away?Be the person you have been looking for..>> i have thought about it a little now, and it is true that i am trying not to feel anxiety. but how do i respond in the situation? i am going back to work tomorrow, and i am not looking forward to it.> > i always try to come across as cool, and when i can't ,i beat myself up. being cool feels like my life raft, stupid as it may sound. i feel a strong resistance when i think about letting others see my anxiety. and it makes me angry, it feels like THEY are doing it to me.> > how do i know if i am willing? i understand that i need lots of training. willing to feel one's anxiety is not the same as being totally subdued, is it? that's the primary source of resistance, i guess. > > when i think about it, nothing has ever made me as angry as when someone tells me to accept myself as i am.> > thanks for the concern, kaivey. and thanks to (vcferrara? forgot your first name) for some really good stuff.> > haakon

February 19, 2011

Bruce - When confronted with things we can't do anything about we have two choices - accept them or struggle with them. I don't know whether stuttering can be "cured" or not. I stuttered badly as a child and mostly grew out of it, except when I'm badly stressed. At any rate, struggling with it is certainly not going to help, so acceptance seems appropriate. Then the question is what acceptance looks like in your particular situation. The consequence of acceptance is living a more valued life. But the behavior to achieve acceptance is the hard part. Shall I work at it like weight lifting (exposure)? Or can I simply move ahead with my hands and feet? The answer is - do what works for you. Try every acceptance exercise you can find. Use every metaphor that you can find. Figure out what works for you. Acceptance is a process, not an event. I work on accepting the same things day after day. That's the nature of accepting things I can't do anything about.

Bill

To: ACT_for_the_Public From: onebnz@...Date: Sat, 19 Feb 2011 15:20:31 -0800Subject: Re: Re: what to do with thoughts

How much can acceptance of childhood issues help in ACT?

For example, I have a stutter and with all the publicity about the movie The King's Speech, there is a lot of talk about how difficult life is for stutterers. All this rings true for me, but I have never done any kind of emotional processing on how stuttering affects me. I've always kind of had to either bull through it or avoid difficult situations. That doesn't sound like ACT but it's what's gotten me this far.

One situation I definitely avoid is verbal confrontation, as a stutterer is always at a distinct disadvantage. Unfortunately, I live with people who say what they think so I have tendency to feel under siege. But this has gone on for a period of years so why I haven't/can't accept this is a mystery.

Acceptance on this issue seems to mean the terrible frustration of stuttering or of not being heard by other people.

Anyway, thanks for any thoughts...

Bruce

If you were your kid, you think you could accept him?Now think of that fearful, insecure side of you, as you as a child, where you picked all this stuff up, most likely from a lack of love, security, etc...Now, when it comes up...you think you can love and accept that child...or are you going to keep on trying to ignore, resist, and push him away?Be the person you have been looking for..>> i have thought about it a little now, and it is true that i am trying not to feel anxiety. but how do i respond in the situation? i am going back to work tomorrow, and i am not looking forward to it.> > i always try to come across as cool, and when i can't ,i beat myself up. being cool feels like my life raft, stupid as it may sound. i feel a strong resistance when i think about letting others see my anxiety. and it makes me angry, it feels like THEY are doing it to me.> > how do i know if i am willing? i understand that i need lots of training. willing to feel one's anxiety is not the same as being totally subdued, is it? that's the primary source of resistance, i guess. > > when i think about it, nothing has ever made me as angry as when someone tells me to accept myself as i am.> > thanks for the concern, kaivey. and thanks to (vcferrara? forgot your first name) for some really good stuff.> > haakon

February 20, 2011

You explained beautifully Randy!Sent from my iPhone

>

> I understand what you are saying, but I don't see

> where I have replied in that nature...like "it's

> all in your head"

If you are curious about what I meant, here are my thoughts more

fully. They are not a criticism of your post, but a general

reflection on why some "how" posts seem more effective than others.

I think it has to do with the difference between "telling" and

"pointing."

TELLING =

Do X and Y the way I tell you to and you will get Z.

POINTING =

What if ...?

Here is what I have found in my experience ...

If you try X, what might happen?

No one knows your own experience but you ...

To make it a little less algebraic, I think we sometimes help

others more by sharing our own experience & how it has worked for

us in what seems a similar but not identical situation, than by

giving explicit instructions with an explicit outcome that is

supposed to result.

Curiosity rather than certainty.

A recipe, sure - but one that might bake a cake or a cinnamon

cookie or something unknown.

Remember, when skilled meditation teachers teach mindfulness, they

don't say "Sit and watch your breath - can you become mindful?" and

still less do they say "Sit and watch your breath - can you become

enlightened?"

Rather, they seem to say things more like "Sit and watch your

breath and see what happens." And "Sitting and watching your breath

is good no matter what happens."

They don't lay an expectation down because they know that is

counterproductive.

These are just general thoughts that I've developed in my own quest

to post more skillfully. I often don't follow them as I would like;

and beyond that, they don't hold for all posts anyway. Some posts

are meant just as sharing, others are just compassion, others are

just "Oops" because sometimes we go "Oops."

- R.

February 20, 2011

Agreed, acceptance is the key issue here, whether or not your stuttering habits ever change...though I suspect if you can truly accept it, you will see some positive benefits..And what does Un-acceptance come from? Believing thoughts that argue with the reality of itEx: If you believe the thought that says that stuttering means something is wrong with you...of course you aren't going to accept itI would write down exactly how you feel about stuttering and what you think it says about you...don't hold back or say what you think sounds good, write down all the judgments, as petty and harsh as they sound..In those judgments lies the key....which if you really question, are not based in any reality or absolute truth...ones like: "I shouldn't stutter" (well you are stuttering so, yes, you should stutter (thats reality)), "something is wrong with me" (there is no "right" or "wrong" in reality, those are purely conceptual) Let go of those, and there will be nothing to even accept...it just ISWhat is your email?>> i have thought about it a little now, and it is true that i am trying not to feel anxiety. but how do i respond in the situation? i am going back to work tomorrow, and i am not looking forward to it.> > i always try to come across as cool, and when i can't ,i beat myself up. being cool feels like my life raft, stupid as it may sound. i feel a strong resistance when i think about letting others see my anxiety. and it makes me angry, it feels like THEY are doing it to me.> > how do i know if i am willing? i understand that i need lots of training. willing to feel one's anxiety is not the same as being totally subdued, is it? that's the primary source of resistance, i guess. > > when i think about it, nothing has ever made me as angry as when someone tells me to accept myself as i am.> > thanks for the concern, kaivey. and thanks to (vcferrara? forgot your first name) for some really good stuff.> > haakon>

February 20, 2011

I guess what I was really saying is how important is it or how helpful can it be to process childhood issues? I have accepted the stuttering pretty well in the present. It has gotten better since I've been practicing ACT.I've been working on giving myself a break, that some of what I feel now and am now is because I stuttered as a child and that's OK. Some of my attitudes came from the stuttering and vice versa. It's my impression that ACT is more about moving forward. But I feel like I'm dragging a big load with me.I struggle with where I am in my career. But my career choices were heavily influenced by my stutter. There were many choices I thought I couldn't be successful at because of the way I talked. Now I look at those choices and say "I could have taken that road", forgetting the reasons I had at the time. I'm also forgetting that where I am is not bad and could be far worse. It's just that it's so easy to compare myself to people who appear to be happier and more successful. I focus on what they appear to have and beat myself up in comparison. I'm trying very hard to stop doing this and drop the envy and comparison. But I feel like there's a fear deeply ingrained in me.My form of stuttering is characterized by blocking of my speech. I get stuck on sounds. I think this is kind of a metaphor for my life, too. I get stuck on thoughts and feelings. I find it difficult to get unstuck on doing valued action. My speech gets stuck and my life gets stuck. It seems like more than a coincidence.Anyway, maybe I'm making too much of this but I've been thinking about it. Along with the stutter, I've got some major father issues. Again, I never thought much of it until I began hearing other's stories and realized that my upbringing was pretty unusual. I guess my issues are pretty common but my circumstances were not. My mind tells me that others have gotten over worse and I should suck it up. But I realize I don't know how other people are coping. I look OK from the outside, too.BruceThanks,BruceBruce - When confronted with things we can't do anything about we have two choices - accept them or struggle with them. I don't know whether stuttering can be "cured" or not. I stuttered badly as a child and mostly grew out of it, except when I'm badly stressed. At any rate, struggling with it is certainly not going to help, so acceptance seems appropriate. Then the question is what acceptance looks like in your particular situation. The consequence of acceptance is living a more valued life. But the behavior to achieve acceptance is the hard part. Shall I work at it like weight lifting (exposure)? Or can I simply move ahead with my hands and feet? The answer is - do what works for you. Try every acceptance exercise you can find. Use every metaphor that you can find. Figure out what works for you. Acceptance is a process, not an event. I work on accepting the same things day after day. That's the nature of accepting things I can't do anything about. BillTo: ACT_for_the_Public From: onebnz@...Date: Sat, 19 Feb 2011 15:20:31 -0800Subject: Re: Re: what to do with thoughtsHow much can acceptance of childhood issues help in ACT?For example, I have a stutter and with all the publicity about the movie The King's Speech, there is a lot of talk about how difficult life is for stutterers. All this rings true for me, but I have never done any kind of emotional processing on how stuttering affects me. I've always kind of had to either bull through it or avoid difficult situations. That doesn't sound like ACT but it's what's gotten me this far.One situation I definitely avoid is verbal confrontation, as a stutterer is always at a distinct disadvantage. Unfortunately, I live with people who say what they think so I have tendency to feel under siege. But this has gone on for a period of years so why I haven't/can't accept this is a mystery.Acceptance on this issue seems to mean the terrible frustration of stuttering or of not being heard by other people. Anyway, thanks for any thoughts...BruceIf you were your kid, you think you could accept him?Now think of that fearful, insecure side of you, as you as a child, where you picked all this stuff up, most likely from a lack of love, security, etc...Now, when it comes up...you think you can love and accept that child...or are you going to keep on trying to ignore, resist, and push him away?Be the person you have been looking for..>> i have thought about it a little now, and it is true that i am trying not to feel anxiety. but how do i respond in the situation? i am going back to work tomorrow, and i am not looking forward to it.> > i always try to come across as cool, and when i can't ,i beat myself up. being cool feels like my life raft, stupid as it may sound. i feel a strong resistance when i think about letting others see my anxiety. and it makes me angry, it feels like THEY are doing it to me.> > how do i know if i am willing? i understand that i need lots of training. willing to feel one's anxiety is not the same as being totally subdued, is it? that's the primary source of resistance, i guess. > > when i think about it, nothing has ever made me as angry as when someone tells me to accept myself as i am.> > thanks for the concern, kaivey. and thanks to (vcferrara? forgot your first name) for some really good stuff.> > haakon

February 20, 2011

Bruce - What would you do if you found out you will never get to the bottom of your childhood issues? Would you keep struggling with them? What would you do if you suddenly got to the bottom of those issues and didn't like the answers? Would you then struggle with the answers? These two scenarios are probably more likely than a third one where you get to the bottom of them and find relief. But there is a fourth scenario. Stop struggling with all that stuff. It's not the issues. It's how you are thinking about them. You have become those issues. You need to try very specific defusion exercises on the thoughts. Today you are taking then seriously and struggling with them. You need to defuse from them. What has been your experience with using any of the defusion exercises?

Pretend you just received a post just like yours from another person on this list and that it is up to you to prepare a response to help the person use ACT. Imagine you have all of the ACT tools at your disposal. What would you recommend? This might help you put some distance from you and your thoughts, and see some possible solutions.

Seems like you and I are saying the same things over and over again. You tell us how much you are struggling. We tell you to stop struggling using ACT processes. ACT progress is incremental and comes from doing the exercises. It does not come from trying to think yourself out of the funk. That just makes it worse.

For what it's worth.

Bill

To: ACT_for_the_Public From: onebnz@...Date: Sun, 20 Feb 2011 09:55:41 -0800Subject: Re: Re: what to do with thoughts

I guess what I was really saying is how important is it or how helpful can it be to process childhood issues? I have accepted the stuttering pretty well in the present. It has gotten better since I've been practicing ACT.

I've been working on giving myself a break, that some of what I feel now and am now is because I stuttered as a child and that's OK. Some of my attitudes came from the stuttering and vice versa. It's my impression that ACT is more about moving forward. But I feel like I'm dragging a big load with me.

I struggle with where I am in my career. But my career choices were heavily influenced by my stutter. There were many choices I thought I couldn't be successful at because of the way I talked. Now I look at those choices and say "I could have taken that road", forgetting the reasons I had at the time. I'm also forgetting that where I am is not bad and could be far worse. It's just that it's so easy to compare myself to people who appear to be happier and more successful. I focus on what they appear to have and beat myself up in comparison. I'm trying very hard to stop doing this and drop the envy and comparison. But I feel like there's a fear deeply ingrained in me.

My form of stuttering is characterized by blocking of my speech. I get stuck on sounds. I think this is kind of a metaphor for my life, too. I get stuck on thoughts and feelings. I find it difficult to get unstuck on doing valued action. My speech gets stuck and my life gets stuck. It seems like more than a coincidence.

Anyway, maybe I'm making too much of this but I've been thinking about it. Along with the stutter, I've got some major father issues. Again, I never thought much of it until I began hearing other's stories and realized that my upbringing was pretty unusual. I guess my issues are pretty common but my circumstances were not. My mind tells me that others have gotten over worse and I should suck it up. But I realize I don't know how other people are coping. I look OK from the outside, too.

Bruce

Thanks,

Bruce

Bruce - When confronted with things we can't do anything about we have two choices - accept them or struggle with them. I don't know whether stuttering can be "cured" or not. I stuttered badly as a child and mostly grew out of it, except when I'm badly stressed. At any rate, struggling with it is certainly not going to help, so acceptance seems appropriate. Then the question is what acceptance looks like in your particular situation. The consequence of acceptance is living a more valued life. But the behavior to achieve acceptance is the hard part. Shall I work at it like weight lifting (exposure)? Or can I simply move ahead with my hands and feet? The answer is - do what works for you. Try every acceptance exercise you can find. Use every metaphor that you can find. Figure out what works for you. Acceptance is a process, not an event. I work on accepting the same things day after day. That's the nature of accepting things I can't do anything about. Bill

To: ACT_for_the_Public From: onebnz@...Date: Sat, 19 Feb 2011 15:20:31 -0800Subject: Re: Re: what to do with thoughtsHow much can acceptance of childhood issues help in ACT?

For example, I have a stutter and with all the publicity about the movie The King's Speech, there is a lot of talk about how difficult life is for stutterers. All this rings true for me, but I have never done any kind of emotional processing on how stuttering affects me. I've always kind of had to either bull through it or avoid difficult situations. That doesn't sound like ACT but it's what's gotten me this far.

One situation I definitely avoid is verbal confrontation, as a stutterer is always at a distinct disadvantage. Unfortunately, I live with people who say what they think so I have tendency to feel under siege. But this has gone on for a period of years so why I haven't/can't accept this is a mystery.

Acceptance on this issue seems to mean the terrible frustration of stuttering or of not being heard by other people.

Anyway, thanks for any thoughts...

Bruce

If you were your kid, you think you could accept him?Now think of that fearful, insecure side of you, as you as a child, where you picked all this stuff up, most likely from a lack of love, security, etc...Now, when it comes up...you think you can love and accept that child...or are you going to keep on trying to ignore, resist, and push him away?Be the person you have been looking for..>> i have thought about it a little now, and it is true that i am trying not to feel anxiety. but how do i respond in the situation? i am going back to work tomorrow, and i am not looking forward to it.> > i always try to come across as cool, and when i can't ,i beat myself up. being cool feels like my life raft, stupid as it may sound. i feel a strong resistance when i think about letting others see my anxiety. and it makes me angry, it feels like THEY are doing it to me.> > how do i know if i am willing? i understand that i need lots of training. willing to feel one's anxiety is not the same as being totally subdued, is it? that's the primary source of resistance, i guess. > > when i think about it, nothing has ever made me as angry as when someone tells me to accept myself as i am.> > thanks for the concern, kaivey. and thanks to (vcferrara? forgot your first name) for some really good stuff.> > haakon

February 20, 2011

I guess I am looking at different issues with the same lens. As I mentioned before, I don't feel anger or regret at childhood issues, I'm just wondering if there might be a help for acceptance for me there, if I understood where I''m coming from.I've just been feeling really bad for the past couple of weeks and I'm grasping at ideas that will provide some relief. I am taking valued action today. Just got back from church, now going to my daughter's basketball game, then going for a walk with my wife. So I am trying to move my hands and feet. I appreciate all the thoughts and advice. What I appreciate most is hope that I can make progress in acceptance and ACT.BruceBruce - What would you do if you found out you will never get to the bottom of your childhood issues? Would you keep struggling with them? What would you do if you suddenly got to the bottom of those issues and didn't like the answers? Would you then struggle with the answers? These two scenarios are probably more likely than a third one where you get to the bottom of them and find relief. But there is a fourth scenario. Stop struggling with all that stuff. It's not the issues. It's how you are thinking about them. You have become those issues. You need to try very specific defusion exercises on the thoughts. Today you are taking then seriously and struggling with them. You need to defuse from them. What has been your experience with using any of the defusion exercises? Pretend you just received a post just like yours from another person on this list and that it is up to you to prepare a response to help the person use ACT. Imagine you have all of the ACT tools at your disposal. What would you recommend? This might help you put some distance from you and your thoughts, and see some possible solutions. Seems like you and I are saying the same things over and over again. You tell us how much you are struggling. We tell you to stop struggling using ACT processes. ACT progress is incremental and comes from doing the exercises. It does not come from trying to think yourself out of the funk. That just makes it worse. For what it's worth. BillTo: ACT_for_the_Public From: onebnz@...Date: Sun, 20 Feb 2011 09:55:41 -0800Subject: Re: Re: what to do with thoughtsI guess what I was really saying is how important is it or how helpful can it be to process childhood issues? I have accepted the stuttering pretty well in the present. It has gotten better since I've been practicing ACT.I've been working on giving myself a break, that some of what I feel now and am now is because I stuttered as a child and that's OK. Some of my attitudes came from the stuttering and vice versa. It's my impression that ACT is more about moving forward. But I feel like I'm dragging a big load with me.I struggle with where I am in my career. But my career choices were heavily influenced by my stutter. There were many choices I thought I couldn't be successful at because of the way I talked. Now I look at those choices and say "I could have taken that road", forgetting the reasons I had at the time. I'm also forgetting that where I am is not bad and could be far worse. It's just that it's so easy to compare myself to people who appear to be happier and more successful. I focus on what they appear to have and beat myself up in comparison. I'm trying very hard to stop doing this and drop the envy and comparison. But I feel like there's a fear deeply ingrained in me.My form of stuttering is characterized by blocking of my speech. I get stuck on sounds. I think this is kind of a metaphor for my life, too. I get stuck on thoughts and feelings. I find it difficult to get unstuck on doing valued action. My speech gets stuck and my life gets stuck. It seems like more than a coincidence.Anyway, maybe I'm making too much of this but I've been thinking about it. Along with the stutter, I've got some major father issues. Again, I never thought much of it until I began hearing other's stories and realized that my upbringing was pretty unusual. I guess my issues are pretty common but my circumstances were not. My mind tells me that others have gotten over worse and I should suck it up. But I realize I don't know how other people are coping. I look OK from the outside, too.BruceThanks,BruceBruce - When confronted with things we can't do anything about we have two choices - accept them or struggle with them. I don't know whether stuttering can be "cured" or not. I stuttered badly as a child and mostly grew out of it, except when I'm badly stressed. At any rate, struggling with it is certainly not going to help, so acceptance seems appropriate. Then the question is what acceptance looks like in your particular situation. The consequence of acceptance is living a more valued life. But the behavior to achieve acceptance is the hard part. Shall I work at it like weight lifting (exposure)? Or can I simply move ahead with my hands and feet? The answer is - do what works for you. Try every acceptance exercise you can find. Use every metaphor that you can find. Figure out what works for you. Acceptance is a process, not an event. I work on accepting the same things day after day. That's the nature of accepting things I can't do anything about. BillTo: ACT_for_the_Public From: onebnz@...Date: Sat, 19 Feb 2011 15:20:31 -0800Subject: Re: Re: what to do with thoughtsHow much can acceptance of childhood issues help in ACT?For example, I have a stutter and with all the publicity about the movie The King's Speech, there is a lot of talk about how difficult life is for stutterers. All this rings true for me, but I have never done any kind of emotional processing on how stuttering affects me. I've always kind of had to either bull through it or avoid difficult situations. That doesn't sound like ACT but it's what's gotten me this far.One situation I definitely avoid is verbal confrontation, as a stutterer is always at a distinct disadvantage. Unfortunately, I live with people who say what they think so I have tendency to feel under siege. But this has gone on for a period of years so why I haven't/can't accept this is a mystery.Acceptance on this issue seems to mean the terrible frustration of stuttering or of not being heard by other people. Anyway, thanks for any thoughts...BruceIf you were your kid, you think you could accept him?Now think of that fearful, insecure side of you, as you as a child, where you picked all this stuff up, most likely from a lack of love, security, etc...Now, when it comes up...you think you can love and accept that child...or are you going to keep on trying to ignore, resist, and push him away?Be the person you have been looking for..>> i have thought about it a little now, and it is true that i am trying not to feel anxiety. but how do i respond in the situation? i am going back to work tomorrow, and i am not looking forward to it.> > i always try to come across as cool, and when i can't ,i beat myself up. being cool feels like my life raft, stupid as it may sound. i feel a strong resistance when i think about letting others see my anxiety. and it makes me angry, it feels like THEY are doing it to me.> > how do i know if i am willing? i understand that i need lots of training. willing to feel one's anxiety is not the same as being totally subdued, is it? that's the primary source of resistance, i guess. > > when i think about it, nothing has ever made me as angry as when someone tells me to accept myself as i am.> > thanks for the concern, kaivey. and thanks to (vcferrara? forgot your first name) for some really good stuff.> > haakon

February 20, 2011

Hi Bruce - Sometimes acceptance means simply letting go of the stuff you are wondering about and trying to accept. Someone recently suggested pretending that your troubles are helium balloons and letting them go in the wind. Maybe you are working too hard. Maybe the last two weeks' funk is just a passing storm. It sounds like you have lots of support - daughter, wife, church. Hang in there. Bill

To: ACT_for_the_Public From: onebnz@...Date: Sun, 20 Feb 2011 12:40:12 -0800Subject: Re: Re: what to do with thoughts

I guess I am looking at different issues with the same lens. As I mentioned before, I don't feel anger or regret at childhood issues, I'm just wondering if there might be a help for acceptance for me there, if I understood where I''m coming from.

I've just been feeling really bad for the past couple of weeks and I'm grasping at ideas that will provide some relief. I am taking valued action today. Just got back from church, now going to my daughter's basketball game, then going for a walk with my wife. So I am trying to move my hands and feet.

I appreciate all the thoughts and advice. What I appreciate most is hope that I can make progress in acceptance and ACT.

Bruce

Bruce - What would you do if you found out you will never get to the bottom of your childhood issues? Would you keep struggling with them? What would you do if you suddenly got to the bottom of those issues and didn't like the answers? Would you then struggle with the answers? These two scenarios are probably more likely than a third one where you get to the bottom of them and find relief. But there is a fourth scenario. Stop struggling with all that stuff. It's not the issues. It's how you are thinking about them. You have become those issues. You need to try very specific defusion exercises on the thoughts. Today you are taking then seriously and struggling with them. You need to defuse from them. What has been your experience with using any of the defusion exercises? Pretend you just received a post just like yours from another person on this list and that it is up to you to prepare a response to help the person use ACT. Imagine you have all of the ACT tools at your disposal. What would you recommend? This might help you put some distance from you and your thoughts, and see some possible solutions. Seems like you and I are saying the same things over and over again. You tell us how much you are struggling. We tell you to stop struggling using ACT processes. ACT progress is incremental and comes from doing the exercises. It does not come from trying to think yourself out of the funk. That just makes it worse. For what it's worth. Bill

To: ACT_for_the_Public From: onebnz@...Date: Sun, 20 Feb 2011 09:55:41 -0800Subject: Re: Re: what to do with thoughtsI guess what I was really saying is how important is it or how helpful can it be to process childhood issues? I have accepted the stuttering pretty well in the present. It has gotten better since I've been practicing ACT.

I've been working on giving myself a break, that some of what I feel now and am now is because I stuttered as a child and that's OK. Some of my attitudes came from the stuttering and vice versa. It's my impression that ACT is more about moving forward. But I feel like I'm dragging a big load with me.

I struggle with where I am in my career. But my career choices were heavily influenced by my stutter. There were many choices I thought I couldn't be successful at because of the way I talked. Now I look at those choices and say "I could have taken that road", forgetting the reasons I had at the time. I'm also forgetting that where I am is not bad and could be far worse. It's just that it's so easy to compare myself to people who appear to be happier and more successful. I focus on what they appear to have and beat myself up in comparison. I'm trying very hard to stop doing this and drop the envy and comparison. But I feel like there's a fear deeply ingrained in me.

My form of stuttering is characterized by blocking of my speech. I get stuck on sounds. I think this is kind of a metaphor for my life, too. I get stuck on thoughts and feelings. I find it difficult to get unstuck on doing valued action. My speech gets stuck and my life gets stuck. It seems like more than a coincidence.

Anyway, maybe I'm making too much of this but I've been thinking about it. Along with the stutter, I've got some major father issues. Again, I never thought much of it until I began hearing other's stories and realized that my upbringing was pretty unusual. I guess my issues are pretty common but my circumstances were not. My mind tells me that others have gotten over worse and I should suck it up. But I realize I don't know how other people are coping. I look OK from the outside, too.

Bruce

Thanks,

Bruce

Bruce - When confronted with things we can't do anything about we have two choices - accept them or struggle with them. I don't know whether stuttering can be "cured" or not. I stuttered badly as a child and mostly grew out of it, except when I'm badly stressed. At any rate, struggling with it is certainly not going to help, so acceptance seems appropriate. Then the question is what acceptance looks like in your particular situation. The consequence of acceptance is living a more valued life. But the behavior to achieve acceptance is the hard part. Shall I work at it like weight lifting (exposure)? Or can I simply move ahead with my hands and feet? The answer is - do what works for you. Try every acceptance exercise you can find. Use every metaphor that you can find. Figure out what works for you. Acceptance is a process, not an event. I work on accepting the same things day after day. That's the nature of accepting things I can't do anything about. Bill

To: ACT_for_the_Public From: onebnz@...Date: Sat, 19 Feb 2011 15:20:31 -0800Subject: Re: Re: what to do with thoughtsHow much can acceptance of childhood issues help in ACT?

For example, I have a stutter and with all the publicity about the movie The King's Speech, there is a lot of talk about how difficult life is for stutterers. All this rings true for me, but I have never done any kind of emotional processing on how stuttering affects me. I've always kind of had to either bull through it or avoid difficult situations. That doesn't sound like ACT but it's what's gotten me this far.

One situation I definitely avoid is verbal confrontation, as a stutterer is always at a distinct disadvantage. Unfortunately, I live with people who say what they think so I have tendency to feel under siege. But this has gone on for a period of years so why I haven't/can't accept this is a mystery.

Acceptance on this issue seems to mean the terrible frustration of stuttering or of not being heard by other people.

Anyway, thanks for any thoughts...

Bruce

If you were your kid, you think you could accept him?Now think of that fearful, insecure side of you, as you as a child, where you picked all this stuff up, most likely from a lack of love, security, etc...Now, when it comes up...you think you can love and accept that child...or are you going to keep on trying to ignore, resist, and push him away?Be the person you have been looking for..>> i have thought about it a little now, and it is true that i am trying not to feel anxiety. but how do i respond in the situation? i am going back to work tomorrow, and i am not looking forward to it.> > i always try to come across as cool, and when i can't ,i beat myself up. being cool feels like my life raft, stupid as it may sound. i feel a strong resistance when i think about letting others see my anxiety. and it makes me angry, it feels like THEY are doing it to me.> > how do i know if i am willing? i understand that i need lots of training. willing to feel one's anxiety is not the same as being totally subdued, is it? that's the primary source of resistance, i guess. > > when i think about it, nothing has ever made me as angry as when someone tells me to accept myself as i am.> > thanks for the concern, kaivey. and thanks to (vcferrara? forgot your first name) for some really good stuff.> > haakon

February 20, 2011

This is what I call "response by smothering the question."

Good; even excellent. But not directly responsive.

To: "ACT for the Public" <ACT_for_the_Public >Sent: Sunday, February 20, 2011 7:31:53 AMSubject: Re: what to do with thoughts

>> I understand what you are saying, but I don't see > where I have replied in that nature...like "it's > all in your head"If you are curious about what I meant, here are my thoughts morefully. They are not a criticism of your post, but a generalreflection on why some "how" posts seem more effective than others.I think it has to do with the difference between "telling" and"pointing."TELLING = Do X and Y the way I tell you to and you will get Z.POINTING = What if ...? Here is what I have found in my experience ... If you try X, what might happen? No one knows your own experience but you ... To make it a little less algebraic, I think we sometimes helpothers more by sharing our own experience & how it has worked forus in what seems a similar but not identical situation, than bygiving explicit instructions with an explicit outcome that issupposed to result.Curiosity rather than certainty.A recipe, sure - but one that might bake a cake or a cinnamoncookie or something unknown.Remember, when skilled meditation teachers teach mindfulness, theydon't say "Sit and watch your breath - can you become mindful?" andstill less do they say "Sit and watch your breath - can you becomeenlightened?"Rather, they seem to say things more like "Sit and watch yourbreath and see what happens." And "Sitting and watching your breathis good no matter what happens."They don't lay an expectation down because they know that iscounterproductive.These are just general thoughts that I've developed in my own questto post more skillfully. I often don't follow them as I would like;and beyond that, they don't hold for all posts anyway. Some postsare meant just as sharing, others are just compassion, others arejust "Oops" because sometimes we go "Oops."- R.

February 21, 2011

You did an excellent job in responding to vc's post. I thought it was a diplomatic response, well thought out and very clear. It was also very useful to me and I learned a lot from it. I'm afraid I'm going to have to leave it at that because "smothering' is a term that made sense only in my mind at the time. My mind has a mind of its own and it sometimes uses confusing words -- I mean, I said what???

Sorry about that.

Helena

Re: what to do with thoughts

> > This is what I call "response by smothering the > question." Good; even excellent. But not directly > responsive. Hi Helena,I have been trying to puzzle out what you mean by the above. I'mjust not getting it.My intent in responding to vcferrara was to explain what I hadmeant in a previous post. I may have done so badly. It may haveseemed that my explanation was indirect or tangential in someway. But I was doing the best I could to be clear about where Iwas coming from, even if it meant bringing up ideas that weren'tin the original thread.I don't think you would really object to people explainingthemselves even if they wander a bit in doing so. So you musthave meant something else in using such a strong word as"smothering." Can you help me out?- R.

February 21, 2011

VC, thank you for your apology; I truly appreciate it. I was feeling bad that I had come across as critical. With this post, I fully understand where you were coming from. I have read Byron's 's work and found it interesting and powerful, but did not find it terribly helpful for me. I am glad that you did. My main issue is not anxiety, but depression, so maybe that's why it resonates with each of us differently.

I have studied just about every kind of therapy, seen therapists, read countless books, and it is only ACT that has finally made a dent in my belief that my depression was holding me back in my life. Now I know it doesn't have to hold me back and I am moving forward in spite of it. I guess I could say it was ACT that helped me to question my erroneous beliefs, which is probably where everyone must start. But I might go further and say that, even if you don't give up your erroneous beliefs, you can act as if they don't rule your life, can't you? I think that is where the ACT philosophy extends beyond just examining your beliefs and changing them. But whatever works for each of us is all that matters, as you say.

It only shows how each of us is different and how we need to stay open to whatever works without judging what works for others. That is a reminder we can each use from time to time--so thanks.

Helena

Re: what to do with thoughts

Helena, I apologize for reacting towards your post, I have just felt a bit attacked in the past for bringing other methods into fold...when I quickly read your response, I just reacted, and wrote something out of that energy...I have dealt with unbelievable amounts of anxiety in my life, picked up a lot of helpful and unhelpful things along the way...so I feel that I should share it in support of others..That is my only intention, even when it may or may not come out in a manner that is actually helpfulThis is why my posts tend to bring up a method of questioning your thoughts, from the work of Byron ...it helped me to really untangle all my beliefs about fear/anxiety itself, that were keeping the fear of anxiety/panic in place...what I was believing caused fear/anxiety to be a threat to my being, and therefore my mind accordingly treated it so...like it is supposed toIt can be very very hard for people to just be mindful of their anxiety without getting caught up in it, to just let it be a 'passenger on the bus' so to say...and it would be a real shame to never question these underlying erroneous beliefs we have about our conditions...in my experience, these underlying beliefs are what keep the house of cards in place...Beliefs are the fuel for the thoughts, and it's the reason the thoughts are there...anxiety about things doesn't just come out of nowhere...This is only my experience with anxiety, and I don't know if it parlays into other emotional issues.. > > > > > > i have thought about it a little now, and it is true that i am trying not to feel anxiety. but how do i respond in the situation? i am going back to work tomorrow, and i am not looking forward to it. > > > > > > i always try to come across as cool, and when i can't ,i beat myself up. being cool feels like my life raft, stupid as it may sound. i feel a strong resistance when i think about letting others see my anxiety. and it makes me angry, it feels like THEY are doing it to me. > > > > > > how do i know if i am willing? i understand that i need lots of training. willing to feel one's anxiety is not the same as being totally subdued, is it? that's the primary source of resistance, i guess. > > > > > > when i think about it, nothing has ever made me as angry as when someone tells me to accept myself as i am. > > > > > > thanks for the concern, kaivey . and thanks to ( vcferrara ? forgot your first name) for some really good stuff. > > > > > > haakon > > > > Recent Activity: > > > > ÃƒÂ¢Ã¢â€šÂ¬Ã‚Â¢ New Members 6 > > > > > > Visit Your Group > > For other ACT materials and list serves see www . contextualpsychology .org > > > > If you do not wish to belong to ACT_for_the_Public, you may > > unsubscribe by sending an email to > > ACT_for_the_Public- unsubscribe @ yahoogroups .com > > Yahoo! Groups > > Switch to: Text-Only , Daily Digest ÃƒÂ¢Ã¢â€šÂ¬Ã‚Â¢ Unsubscribe ÃƒÂ¢Ã¢â€šÂ¬Ã‚Â¢ Terms of Use > > > > > > . > >>

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