Guest guest Posted November 28, 2011 Report Share Posted November 28, 2011 Hi, wondered if any of you had any information regarding this. I have an elderly patient whose daughter is a pharmacist and has been know to be very interfering over her father's care trying to overstep the mark and take control over the wishes of his wife (her stepmother). They have been married for 27 years!!! I have been very recently consulted due to the fact he has had constant urine infections for about 18 months and is now on constant low grade antibiotics for this with no great results. I've just been warned by his wife that his stepdaughter has been trying to interfer and has insisted that he stops my herbal prescription immediately and was trying to fighten him saying that all medicines including herbal medicines should have clearly labelled contents - i.e. I should have listed every herb I used on the label. As far as I'm aware this is not the case and indeed I don't like doing this as patients tend to google information and obviously end up with just the medical biased stuff usually. Anyone any more info on this??? Thank you Jean Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted November 28, 2011 Report Share Posted November 28, 2011 Hi better not to cause family problems, just put the ingredients on the label if that is satisfying his daughter, she has been his daughter for long enough too. Give Latin names and be graceful about it. MArilena. To: ukherbal-list From: jeanrdow@...Date: Mon, 28 Nov 2011 06:02:46 -0500Subject: legalities of labels Hi,wondered if any of you had any information regarding this. I have an elderly patient whose daughter is a pharmacist and has been know to be very interfering over her father's care trying to overstep the mark and take control over the wishes of his wife (her stepmother). They have been married for 27 years!!! I have been very recently consulted due to the fact he has had constant urine infections for about 18 months and is now on constant low grade antibiotics for this with no great results. I've just been warned by his wife that his stepdaughter has been trying to interfer and has insisted that he stops my herbal prescription immediately and was trying to fighten him saying that all medicines including herbal medicines should have clearly labelled contents - i.e. I should have listed every herb I used on the label. As far as I'm aware this is not the case and indeed I don't like doing this as patients tend to google information and obviously end up with just the medical biased stuff usually. Anyone any more info on this???Thank youJean Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted November 28, 2011 Report Share Posted November 28, 2011 I don't have an issue giving him the details of what he is taking - in fact I have done so already with common names and explained what they all do. What I object to is someone stating that I am doing something illegal and portraying that to my patient and trying to dissuade him from care. legalities of labels  Hi, wondered if any of you had any information regarding this. I have an elderly patient whose daughter is a pharmacist and has been know to be very interfering over her father's care trying to overstep the mark and take control over the wishes of his wife (her stepmother). They have been married for 27 years!!! I have been very recently consulted due to the fact he has had constant urine infections for about 18 months and is now on constant low grade antibiotics for this with no great results. I've just been warned by his wife that his stepdaughter has been trying to interfer and has insisted that he stops my herbal prescription immediately and was trying to fighten him saying that all medicines including herbal medicines should have clearly labelled contents - i.e. I should have listed every herb I used on the label. As far as I'm aware this is not the case and indeed I don't like doing this as patients tend to goog le information and obviously end up with just the medical biased stuff usually. Anyone any more info on this??? Thank you Jean Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted November 28, 2011 Report Share Posted November 28, 2011 Hi Having been in a situation such as this, I agree with Marilena. What worked in that instance was to write up a separate letter for the interested party, listing all the herbs in Latin and inviting whomever was interested to give me a call so they could have all their questions/concerns discussed. Turned out to be an excellent educational opportunity. Cheers, Kerry Hi better not to cause family problems, just put the ingredients on the label if that is satisfying his daughter, she has been his daughter for long enough too. Give Latin names and be graceful about it. MArilena. -- Kerry Hackett, MNIMH, AHG, OHA Medical Herbalist www.kerryhackett.ca Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted November 28, 2011 Report Share Posted November 28, 2011 I agree totally with Marilena and would add that though it is not a legal requirement to supply the 'ingredients' of your prescription/medicine, it is common sense that every patient has a right to know what is in your prescription. Anybody might be wondering why you might not always supply the data, but a daughter who is a pharmacist has more reason to be concerned than most and every reason to want to see the information. I feel we all should give it not only with grace, but also with a willingness to explain and preparedness to justify every herbal drug we include in any prescriptions. Hi better not to cause family problems, just put the ingredients on the label if that is satisfying his daughter, she has been his daughter for long enough too. Give Latin names and be graceful about it. MArilena. To: ukherbal-list From: jeanrdow@...Date: Mon, 28 Nov 2011 06:02:46 -0500Subject: legalities of labels Hi,wondered if any of you had any information regarding this. I have an elderly patient whose daughter is a pharmacist and has been know to be very interfering over her father's care trying to overstep the mark and take control over the wishes of his wife (her stepmother). They have been married for 27 years!!! I have been very recently consulted due to the fact he has had constant urine infections for about 18 months and is now on constant low grade antibiotics for this with no great results. I've just been warned by his wife that his stepdaughter has been trying to interfer and has insisted that he stops my herbal prescription immediately and was trying to fighten him saying that all medicines including herbal medicines should have clearly labelled contents - i.e. I should have listed every herb I used on the label. As far as I'm aware this is not the case and indeed I don't like doing this as patients tend to google information and obviously end up with just the medical biased stuff usually. Anyone any more info on this???Thank youJean --------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- "Almost anything you do will be insignificant, but it is very important that you do it" M Gandi Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted November 28, 2011 Report Share Posted November 28, 2011 Hi we'll just have to be graceful about that too, people are entitled to be sceptical about herbs, at least we know that we are practicing well and within legal framework, don't take it personally, and be patient with her. Just give info and leave it alone, it will pass. Try to understand her standpoint: its her dad, and he is doing something she is totally unfamiliar with. So some education will be appreciated, and will reduce tension, rather than inflaming it even more by becoming offended. Good luck, MArilena. To: ukherbal-list From: jeanrdow@...Date: Mon, 28 Nov 2011 12:10:35 -0500Subject: Re: legalities of labels I don't have an issue giving him the details of what he is taking - in fact I have done so already with common names and explained what they all do. What I object to is someone stating that I am doing something illegal and portraying that to my patient and trying to dissuade him from care. legalities of labels Hi,wondered if any of you had any information regarding this. I have anelderly patient whose daughter is a pharmacist and has been know to bevery interfering over her father's care trying to overstep the mark andtake control over the wishes of his wife (her stepmother). They havebeen married for 27 years!!! I have been very recently consulted dueto the fact he has had constant urine infections for about 18 monthsand is now on constant low grade antibiotics for this with no greatresults. I've just been warned by his wife that his stepdaughter hasbeen trying to interfer and has insisted that he stops my herbalprescription immediately and was trying to fighten him saying that allmedicines including herbal medicines should have clearly labelledcontents - i.e. I should have listed every herb I used on the label.As far as I'm aware this is not the case and indeed I don't like doingthis as patients tend to goog le information and obviously end up withjust the medical biased stuff usually. Anyone any more info on this???Thank youJean Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted November 28, 2011 Report Share Posted November 28, 2011 At this present time I don't have my patient's permission to give out any information regarding his care and therefore would be in breach of confidentiality if I did this. I think we are confusing two things here. Firstly, my patient has already a list of what is in his medicine. I have no problem whatsoever in giving this to patients who ask - and indeed like explaining what each herb does. I think it gives them a greater understanding of how I am working. I simply don't do it as routine because not everyone asks or wants to know. I also don't provide this information to third parties without permission. The issue I was querying is what is the legality of this needing to be put on a label. Is it against the law to prescribe a medicine without listing the ingredients. This is what this lady is claiming. I also have to consider the feelings of my patients wife who attends the consultation and feels completely undermined by her stepdaughter's interference. If my patient asks me to send a list to his daughter - of course I would do this - there is no doubt at all about that. I was simply asking about the legality of it being required to be on a label. I'm not offended because she is asking for information - i'm offended by her trying to claim i'm doing something illegal and unprofessional and I don't know about the rest of you but don't you get fed up with your patients being told to stop taking your herbs because they are dangerous. Maybe its just me! jean legalities of labels  Hi, wondered if any of you had any information regarding this. I have an elderly patient whose daughter is a pharmacist and has been know to be very interfering over her father's care trying to overstep the mark and take control over the wishes of his wife (her stepmother). They have been married for 27 years!!! I have been very recently consulted due to the fact he has had constant urine infections for about 18 months and is now on constant low grade antibiotics for this with no great results. I've just been warned by his wife that his stepdaughter has been trying to interfer and has insisted that he stops my herbal prescription immediately and was trying to fighten him saying that all medicines inc luding herbal medicines should have clearly labelled contents - i.e. I should have listed every herb I used on the label. As far as I'm aware this is not the case and indeed I don't like doing this as patients tend to goog le information and obviously end up with just the medical biased stuff usually. Anyone any more info on this??? Thank you Jean Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted November 28, 2011 Report Share Posted November 28, 2011 Actually got that wrong, i dont have to consider his wife either really, just my patient. Sent from Samsung Mobile jeanrdow@... wrote: At this present time I don't have my patient's permission to give out any information regarding his care and therefore would be in breach of confidentiality if I did this. I think we are confusing two things here. Firstly, my patient has already a list of what is in his medicine. I have no problem whatsoever in giving this to patients who ask - and indeed like explaining what each herb does. I think it gives them a greater understanding of how I am working. I simply don't do it as routine because not everyone asks or wants to know. I also don't provide this information to third parties without permission. The issue I was querying is what is the legality of this needing to be put on a label. Is it against the law to prescribe a medicine without listing the ingredients. This is what this lady is claiming. I also have to consider the feelings of my patients wife who attends the consultation and feels completely undermined by her stepdaughter's interference. If my patient asks me to send a list to his daughter - of course I would do this - there is no doubt at all about that. I was simply asking about the legality of it being required to be on a label. I'm not offended because she is asking for information - i'm offended by her trying to claim i'm doing something illegal and unprofessional and I don't know about the rest of you but don't you get fed up with your patients being told to stop taking your herbs because they are dangerous. Maybe its just me! jean legalities of labels Hi, wondered if any of you had any information regarding this. I have an elderly patient whose daughter is a pharmacist and has been know to be very interfering over her father's care trying to overstep the mark and take control over the wishes of his wife (her stepmother). They have been married for 27 years!!! I have been very recently consulted due to the fact he has had constant urine infections for about 18 months and is now on constant low grade antibiotics for this with no great results. I've just been warned by his wife that his stepdaughter has been trying to interfer and has insisted that he stops my herbal prescription immediately and was trying to fighten him saying that all medicines inc luding herbal medicines should have clearly labelled contents - i.e. I should have listed every herb I used on the label. As far as I'm aware this is not the case and indeed I don't like doing this as patients tend to goog le information and obviously end up with just the medical biased stuff usually. Anyone any more info on this??? Thank you Jean Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted November 28, 2011 Report Share Posted November 28, 2011 Well said I think we let our patients down when we are ignore the prejudice that is too common. Just look n Pubmed and see the depressing progression of paper titles from - " Herb shows promise in the treatment of....... " to " Herbal usage by..... patients, possible dangers " over the last 10 years or so. There are, of course, still many useful papers out there, but the number of surveys which only collect data on how many patients use herbs and in what circumstances and don't look at their actual effects (what a missed opportunity to compare the actual outcomes of usage with nonusage!), but merely go straight to the conclusion that there may be a problem with interactions....... and health practitioners must enquire and warn.........It's a lot. (I'm not saying that I ignore the risk of interactions, of course I don't, I just think that there is an awful lot of smoke screens and shroud waving , quite useful to distract patients from the real side effects of long term pharmaceutical use.) Sally Owen > and I don't know about the rest of you but don't you get fed up with > your patients being told to stop taking your herbs because they are > dangerous. Maybe its just me! > jean -- Sally Owen MNIMH Medical Herbalist Mid Wales Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted November 29, 2011 Report Share Posted November 29, 2011 Hello For a prescription putting the 'The Mixture' or other vague reference on the bottle is fine. What would be illegal is making any claims for the prescription on the label and leaving out things like KEEP MEDICINES AWAY FROM CHILDREN, your name, address etc.Although my system can produce labels that list everything, including all the batch numbers of the ingredients I tend to use the general label instead.The patient receives an itemised invoice with all components, batch numbers etc. I find this useful so they can show medics, airport security etc. If needed.For tablets I do list all the ingredients and also print any relevant warnings e.g. Not to taken during pregnancy etc.As long as you don't miss anything essential off and fully inform about application and interactions I can't see a problem. Yes it's up to the patient to disclose further to said wife not you!As long as you keep adequate notes and records can't see an issue.LorraineLorraine Hodgkinson MNIMH MRCHMHERBS AND HELPERS6, Butts Fold, Cockermouth,Cumbria, CA13 9HY. UK.Tel: +44 (0) 1900 826392Mobile: 07761 489838 (O2)www.herbalmedicineuk.comOn 28 Nov 2011, at 18:24, jeanrdow@... wrote: At this present time I don't have my patient's permission to give out any information regarding his care and therefore would be in breach of confidentiality if I did this. I think we are confusing two things here. Firstly, my patient has already a list of what is in his medicine. I have no problem whatsoever in giving this to patients who ask - and indeed like explaining what each herb does. I think it gives them a greater understanding of how I am working. I simply don't do it as routine because not everyone asks or wants to know. I also don't provide this information to third parties without permission. The issue I was querying is what is the legality of this needing to be put on a label. Is it against the law to prescribe a medicine without listing the ingredients. This is what this lady is claiming. I also have to consider the feelings of my patients wife who attends the consultation and feels completely undermined by her stepdaughter's interference. If my patient asks me to send a list to his daughter - of course I would do this - there is no doubt at all about that. I was simply asking about the legality of it being required to be on a label. I'm not offended because she is asking for information - i'm offended by her trying to claim i'm doing something illegal and unprofessional and I don't know about the rest of you but don't you get fed up with your patients being told to stop taking your herbs because they are dangerous. Maybe its just me! jean legalities of labels Hi, wondered if any of you had any information regarding this. I have an elderly patient whose daughter is a pharmacist and has been know to be very interfering over her father's care trying to overstep the mark and take control over the wishes of his wife (her stepmother). They have been married for 27 years!!! I have been very recently consulted due to the fact he has had constant urine infections for about 18 months and is now on constant low grade antibiotics for this with no great results. I've just been warned by his wife that his stepdaughter has been trying to interfer and has insisted that he stops my herbal prescription immediately and was trying to fighten him saying that all medicines inc luding herbal medicines should have clearly labelled contents - i.e. I should have listed every herb I used on the label. As far as I'm aware this is not the case and indeed I don't like doing this as patients tend to goog le information and obviously end up with just the medical biased stuff usually. Anyone any more info on this??? Thank you Jean Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted November 29, 2011 Report Share Posted November 29, 2011 I have just up dated my labels! I no longer write Herbal Medicine as I have done for 30 years! but Herbal Preparation with Expiry date. After all the other requirements I place in RED –Keep out of children’s sight and reach. Still cannot get used to my new wording. Best wishes Tina.Alder From: Herbs and Helpers Sent: Tuesday, November 29, 2011 11:11 AM To: ukherbal-list Subject: Re: legalities of labels Hello For a prescription putting the 'The Mixture' or other vague reference on the bottle is fine. What would be illegal is making any claims for the prescription on the label and leaving out things like KEEP MEDICINES AWAY FROM CHILDREN, your name, address etc. Although my system can produce labels that list everything, including all the batch numbers of the ingredients I tend to use the general label instead. The patient receives an itemised invoice with all components, batch numbers etc. I find this useful so they can show medics, airport security etc. If needed. For tablets I do list all the ingredients and also print any relevant warnings e.g. Not to taken during pregnancy etc. As long as you don't miss anything essential off and fully inform about application and interactions I can't see a problem. Yes it's up to the patient to disclose further to said wife not you! As long as you keep adequate notes and records can't see an issue. LorraineLorraine Hodgkinson MNIMH MRCHM HERBS AND HELPERS 6, Butts Fold, Cockermouth, Cumbria, CA13 9HY. UK. Tel: +44 (0) 1900 826392 Mobile: 07761 489838 (O2) www.herbalmedicineuk.com At this present time I don't have my patient's permission to give out any information regarding his care and therefore would be in breach of confidentiality if I did this. I think we are confusing two things here. Firstly, my patient has already a list of what is in his medicine. I have no problem whatsoever in giving this to patients who ask - and indeed like explaining what each herb does. I think it gives them a greater understanding of how I am working. I simply don't do it as routine because not everyone asks or wants to know. I also don't provide this information to third parties without permission.The issue I was querying is what is the legality of this needing to be put on a label. Is it against the law to prescribe a medicine without listing the ingredients. This is what this lady is claiming. I also have to consider the feelings of my patients wife who attends the consultation and feels completely undermined by her stepdaughter's interference. If my patient asks me to send a list to his daughter - of course I would do this - there is no doubt at all about that. I was simply asking about the legality of it being required to be on a label. I'm not offended because she is asking for information - i'm offended by her trying to claim i'm doing something illegal and unprofessional and I don't know about the rest of you but don't you get fed up with your patients being told to stop taking your herbs because they are dangerous. Maybe its just me!jean legalities of labels Hi,wondered if any of you had any information regarding this. I have anelderly patient whose daughter is a pharmacist and has been know to bevery interfering over her father's care trying to overstep the mark andtake control over the wishes of his wife (her stepmother). They havebeen married for 27 years!!! I have been very recently consulted dueto the fact he has had constant urine infections for about 18 monthsand is now on constant low grade antibiotics for this with no greatresults. I've just been warned by his wife that his stepdaughter hasbeen trying to interfer and has insisted that he stops my herbalprescription immediately and was trying to fighten him saying that allmedicines inc luding herbal medicines should have clearly labelledcontents - i.e. I should have listed every herb I used on the label.As far as I'm aware this is not the case and indeed I don't like doingthis as patients tend to goog le information and obviously end up withjust the medical biased stuff usually. Anyone any more info on this???Thank youJean Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted November 29, 2011 Report Share Posted November 29, 2011 Hi not much use in getting offended or fed up is there? anyway, legally, your name and address should be on the bottle, with instructions on how to take it, keep away from children and out of sunlight or heat. Best wishes, Marilena. To: ukherbal-list From: alnus@...Date: Tue, 29 Nov 2011 11:20:24 +0000Subject: Re: legalities of labels I have just up dated my labels! I no longer write Herbal Medicine as I have done for 30 years! but Herbal Preparation with Expiry date. After all the other requirements I place in RED –Keep out of children’s sight and reach. Still cannot get used to my new wording. Best wishes Tina.Alder From: Herbs and Helpers Sent: Tuesday, November 29, 2011 11:11 AM To: ukherbal-list Subject: Re: legalities of labels Hello For a prescription putting the 'The Mixture' or other vague reference on the bottle is fine. What would be illegal is making any claims for the prescription on the label and leaving out things like KEEP MEDICINES AWAY FROM CHILDREN, your name, address etc. Although my system can produce labels that list everything, including all the batch numbers of the ingredients I tend to use the general label instead. The patient receives an itemised invoice with all components, batch numbers etc. I find this useful so they can show medics, airport security etc. If needed. For tablets I do list all the ingredients and also print any relevant warnings e.g. Not to taken during pregnancy etc. As long as you don't miss anything essential off and fully inform about application and interactions I can't see a problem. Yes it's up to the patient to disclose further to said wife not you! As long as you keep adequate notes and records can't see an issue. LorraineLorraine Hodgkinson MNIMH MRCHM HERBS AND HELPERS 6, Butts Fold, Cockermouth, Cumbria, CA13 9HY. UK. Tel: +44 (0) 1900 826392 Mobile: 07761 489838 (O2) www.herbalmedicineuk.com At this present time I don't have my patient's permission to give out any information regarding his care and therefore would be in breach of confidentiality if I did this. I think we are confusing two things here. Firstly, my patient has already a list of what is in his medicine. I have no problem whatsoever in giving this to patients who ask - and indeed like explaining what each herb does. I think it gives them a greater understanding of how I am working. I simply don't do it as routine because not everyone asks or wants to know. I also don't provide this information to third parties without permission.The issue I was querying is what is the legality of this needing to be put on a label. Is it against the law to prescribe a medicine without listing the ingredients. This is what this lady is claiming. I also have to consider the feelings of my patients wife who attends the consultation and feels completely undermined by her stepdaughter's interference. If my patient asks me to send a list to his daughter - of course I would do this - there is no doubt at all about that. I was simply asking about the legality of it being required to be on a label. I'm not offended because she is asking for information - i'm offended by her trying to claim i'm doing something illegal and unprofessional and I don't know about the rest of you but don't you get fed up with your patients being told to stop taking your herbs because they are dangerous. Maybe its just me!jean legalities of labels Hi,wondered if any of you had any information regarding this. I have anelderly patient whose daughter is a pharmacist and has been know to bevery interfering over her father's care trying to overstep the mark andtake control over the wishes of his wife (her stepmother). They havebeen married for 27 years!!! I have been very recently consulted dueto the fact he has had constant urine infections for about 18 monthsand is now on constant low grade antibiotics for this with no greatresults. I've just been warned by his wife that his stepdaughter hasbeen trying to interfer and has insisted that he stops my herbalprescription immediately and was trying to fighten him saying that allmedicines inc luding herbal medicines should have clearly labelledcontents - i.e. I should have listed every herb I used on the label.As far as I'm aware this is not the case and indeed I don't like doingthis as patients tend to goog le information and obviously end up withjust the medical biased stuff usually. Anyone any more info on this???Thank youJean Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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