Re: Fibrocartilagenous embolus

September 27, 2010

I had one case of a relapse in an FCE dog ( a Newfoundland) about 4 months after the initial onset (we were still doing rehabilitation, as she was affected on both LF and LR); it presented very much like a TIA (transient ischemic attack) in humans, as it resolved much more quickly than the initial FCE. No further diagnostic work up was pursued by the owners (other than examination by their rDVM), so don't know if it was truly another FCE, but I would suspect it's possible, extrapolating from the human side of things, that people who've had one TIA are much more likely to get others, or even full strokes. I know the etiology of an FCE is different, but if certain dogs are predisposed to that problem, it stands to reason that it could happen more than once.

Bedenbaugh, PT, CCRP

Rehab Animalia and Fitness

Fibrocartilagenous embolus

I have been working with a 3 yr old Lab who was diagnosed with FCE. His left pelvic limb was primarily affected. After 3 months of rehab he is back to normal activity and has almost completed his rehab program. The dog has had what the owner is calling a relapse, with the same symptoms, the same leg affected. He said the dog looks just like he did the day the FCE occured the first time. I have never seen a relapse of FCE patients. What experience do you all have with a recurrance of FCE.

Thanks,

Wallis, RVT, CCRP, CCRA

PAWsitive Rehabilitation

September 27, 2010

I have seen a relapse in a Newfoundland Dog as well!Â I cannot

remember exactly w/o the chart in front of me, but I think it was w/in a year

of the first incident.

Laurie Edge-, BScPT, MAnimSt(Animal Physio), CAFCI, CCRT

The Canine Fitness Centre Ltd.

Calgary, AB, Canada

From: VetRehab

[mailto:VetRehab ] On Behalf Of LHinerman2@...

Sent: September-26-10 4:34 PM

To: VetRehab

Subject: Re: Fibrocartilagenous embolus

I had one case of a relapse in an FCE dog ( a Newfoundland) about

4 months after the initial onset (we were still doing rehabilitation, as she

was affected on both LF and LR); it presented very much like a TIA (transient

ischemic attack) in humans, as it resolved much more quickly than the initial

FCE. No further diagnostic work up was pursued by the owners (other than

examination by their rDVM), so don't know if it was truly another FCE, but I

would suspect it's possible, extrapolating from the human side of things, that

people who've had one TIA are much more likely to get others, or even full

strokes. I know the etiology of an FCE is different, but if certain dogs

are predisposed to that problem, it stands to reason that it could happen more

than once.

Bedenbaugh, PT, CCRP

Rehab Animalia and Fitness

Fibrocartilagenous embolus

I have been working with a 3 yr

old Lab who was diagnosed with FCE. His left pelvic limb was primarily

affected. After 3 months of rehab he is back to normal activity and has almost

completed his rehab program. The dog has had what the owner is calling a relapse,

with the same symptoms, the same leg affected. He said the dog looks just like

he did the day the FCE occured the first time. I have never seen a relapse of

FCE patients. What experience do you all have with a recurrance of FCE.

Thanks,

Wallis, RVT, CCRP, CCRA

PAWsitive Rehabilitation

__________ Information from ESET NOD32 Antivirus, version of virus signature

database 5481 (20100926) __________

The message was checked by ESET NOD32 Antivirus.

http://www.eset.com

__________ Information from ESET NOD32 Antivirus, version of virus signature database 5481 (20100926) __________The message was checked by ESET NOD32 Antivirus.http://www.eset.com

September 29, 2010

Thank you and Laurie,

Laurie- did your Newfie have any Diagnostics (MRI) for the FCE?

My question is now if it can happen twice, what are the chances of it occuring a

3rd time?

>

> I have seen a relapse in a Newfoundland Dog as well! I cannot remember

exactly w/o the chart in front of me, but I think it was w/in a year of the

first incident.

>

> Laurie Edge-, BScPT, MAnimSt(Animal Physio), CAFCI, CCRT

>

> The Canine Fitness Centre Ltd.

>

> Calgary, AB, Canada

>

> From: VetRehab [mailto:VetRehab ] On Behalf Of

LHinerman2@...

> Sent: September-26-10 4:34 PM

> To: VetRehab

> Subject: Re: Fibrocartilagenous embolus

>

> I had one case of a relapse in an FCE dog ( a Newfoundland) about 4 months

after the initial onset (we were still doing rehabilitation, as she was affected

on both LF and LR); it presented very much like a TIA (transient ischemic

attack) in humans, as it resolved much more quickly than the initial FCE. No

further diagnostic work up was pursued by the owners (other than examination by

their rDVM), so don't know if it was truly another FCE, but I would suspect it's

possible, extrapolating from the human side of things, that people who've had

one TIA are much more likely to get others, or even full strokes. I know the

etiology of an FCE is different, but if certain dogs are predisposed to that

problem, it stands to reason that it could happen more than once.

>

> Bedenbaugh, PT, CCRP

>

> Rehab Animalia and Fitness

>

> Fibrocartilagenous embolus

>

> I have been working with a 3 yr old Lab who was diagnosed with FCE. His left

pelvic limb was primarily affected. After 3 months of rehab he is back to normal

activity and has almost completed his rehab program. The dog has had what the

owner is calling a relapse, with the same symptoms, the same leg affected. He

said the dog looks just like he did the day the FCE occured the first time. I

have never seen a relapse of FCE patients. What experience do you all have with

a recurrance of FCE.

> Thanks,

> Wallis, RVT, CCRP, CCRA

> PAWsitive Rehabilitation

>

> __________ Information from ESET NOD32 Antivirus, version of virus signature

database 5481 (20100926) __________

>

> The message was checked by ESET NOD32 Antivirus.

>

> http://www.eset.com

>

September 29, 2010

I remember at the CRI neurorehabilitation course,

It was said that it was very unlikely to happen again in the same dog...?Tara Tara , DVMCertified Canine Rehabilitation Therapist

To: VetRehab From: renee1rvt@...Date: Wed, 29 Sep 2010 04:46:54 +0000Subject: Re: Fibrocartilagenous embolus

Thank you and Laurie,Laurie- did your Newfie have any Diagnostics (MRI) for the FCE?My question is now if it can happen twice, what are the chances of it occuring a 3rd time?>> I have seen a relapse in a Newfoundland Dog as well! I cannot remember exactly w/o the chart in front of me, but I think it was w/in a year of the first incident.> > Laurie Edge-, BScPT, MAnimSt(Animal Physio), CAFCI, CCRT> > The Canine Fitness Centre Ltd.> > Calgary, AB, Canada > > > > From: VetRehab [mailto:VetRehab ] On Behalf Of LHinerman2@...> Sent: September-26-10 4:34 PM> To: VetRehab > Subject: Re: Fibrocartilagenous embolus> > > > > > I had one case of a relapse in an FCE dog ( a Newfoundland) about 4 months after the initial onset (we were still doing rehabilitation, as she was affected on both LF and LR); it presented very much like a TIA (transient ischemic attack) in humans, as it resolved much more quickly than the initial FCE. No further diagnostic work up was pursued by the owners (other than examination by their rDVM), so don't know if it was truly another FCE, but I would suspect it's possible, extrapolating from the human side of things, that people who've had one TIA are much more likely to get others, or even full strokes. I know the etiology of an FCE is different, but if certain dogs are predisposed to that problem, it stands to reason that it could happen more than once. > > Bedenbaugh, PT, CCRP> > Rehab Animalia and Fitness> > > > Fibrocartilagenous embolus> > > > I have been working with a 3 yr old Lab who was diagnosed with FCE. His left pelvic limb was primarily affected. After 3 months of rehab he is back to normal activity and has almost completed his rehab program. The dog has had what the owner is calling a relapse, with the same symptoms, the same leg affected. He said the dog looks just like he did the day the FCE occured the first time. I have never seen a relapse of FCE patients. What experience do you all have with a recurrance of FCE.> Thanks,> Wallis, RVT, CCRP, CCRA> PAWsitive Rehabilitation> > > > > > __________ Information from ESET NOD32 Antivirus, version of virus signature database 5481 (20100926) __________> > > > The message was checked by ESET NOD32 Antivirus.> > > > http://www.eset.com>

September 30, 2010

Oh, I missed the one question below:

No, there were no advanced diagnostics done on the Newf.

And, while I’m sure it is unlikely for an FCE to happen more

than once – I guess that doesn’t mean it can’t happen again.

I don’t want to stick my foot in my mouth any further, I

know there to be a brilliant neurologist lurking on line.

Thus, I shall defer further comments on matters such as this.....

Laurie

From: VetRehab

[mailto:VetRehab ] On Behalf Of Tara

Sent: September-29-10 3:41 PM

To: vetrehab

Subject: RE: Re: Fibrocartilagenous embolus

I remember at the CRI neurorehabilitation course,

It was said that it was very unlikely to happen again in the

same dog...?

Tara

Tara , DVM

Certified Canine Rehabilitation

Therapist

To: VetRehab

From: renee1rvt@...

Date: Wed, 29 Sep 2010 04:46:54 +0000

Subject: Re: Fibrocartilagenous embolus

Thank you and Laurie,

Laurie- did your Newfie have any Diagnostics (MRI) for the FCE?

My question is now if it can happen twice, what are the chances of it occuring

a 3rd time?

>

> I have seen a relapse in a Newfoundland Dog as well! I cannot remember

exactly w/o the chart in front of me, but I think it was w/in a year of the

first incident.

>

> Laurie Edge-, BScPT, MAnimSt(Animal Physio), CAFCI, CCRT

>

> The Canine Fitness Centre Ltd.

>

> Calgary, AB, Canada

>

> From: VetRehab

[mailto:VetRehab ]

On Behalf Of LHinerman2@...

> Sent: September-26-10 4:34 PM

> To: VetRehab

> Subject: Re: Fibrocartilagenous embolus

>

> I had one case of a relapse in an FCE dog ( a Newfoundland) about 4 months

after the initial onset (we were still doing rehabilitation, as she was

affected on both LF and LR); it presented very much like a TIA (transient

ischemic attack) in humans, as it resolved much more quickly than the initial

FCE. No further diagnostic work up was pursued by the owners (other than

examination by their rDVM), so don't know if it was truly another FCE, but I

would suspect it's possible, extrapolating from the human side of things, that

people who've had one TIA are much more likely to get others, or even full

strokes. I know the etiology of an FCE is different, but if certain dogs are

predisposed to that problem, it stands to reason that it could happen more than

once.

>

> Bedenbaugh, PT, CCRP

>

> Rehab Animalia and F itness

>

> Fibrocartilagenous embolus

>

> I have been working with a 3 yr old Lab who was diagnosed with FCE. His

left pelvic limb was primarily affected. After 3 months of rehab he is back to

normal activity and has almost completed his rehab program. The dog has had

what the owner is calling a relapse, with the same symptoms, the same leg affected.

He said the dog looks just like he did the day the FCE occured the first time.

I have never seen a relapse of FCE patients. What experience do you all have

with a recurrance of FCE.

> Thanks,

> Wallis, RVT, CCRP, CCRA

> PAWsitive Rehabilitation

>

> __________ Information from ESET NOD32 Antivirus, version of virus

signature database 5481 (20100926) __________

>

> The message was checked by ESET NOD32 Antivirus.

>

> http://www.eset.com

>

__________ Information from ESET NOD32 Antivirus, version of virus signature

database 5490 (20100929) __________

The message was checked by ESET NOD32 Antivirus.

http://www.eset.com

__________ Information from ESET NOD32 Antivirus, version of virus signature database 5490 (20100929) __________The message was checked by ESET NOD32 Antivirus.http://www.eset.com

September 30, 2010

To the best of my knowledge there are no confirmed cases of FCE recurrences. First of all FCE is a very specific diagnosis. It refers to a condition confirmed by AMC in approximately 1974 with histopath where dogs had acute spinal cord infarcts caused by fibrocartilage getting into the feeding vessels within the spinal cord. The only fibrocartilage near the cord is in the nuclear material of the intervertebral disc but because dogs have solid vertebral endplates, to this day we still don't know how it gets there and where it actually comes from. Certainly dogs with degenerative disc disease are not over represented. There is a similar condition in man where fibrocartilage ends up in the vertebral venous system but humans have perforations in their vertebral endplates and this has been shown to be the path the nuclear material takes.So lets consider the problems with even diagnosing the condition twice. The only confirmation is with histopath and I know of no cases where an autopsy was performed and a dog had two fibrocartilaginous infarcts at even two different sites. I would think this covers many hundreds of autopsies.Dr. Pat Gavin, a well known veterinary radiologist, who reads animal MRI's for a living, believes that many of the cases we call FCE are actually disc prolapses and this might be true. Certainly all acute painless spinal cord disease isn't FCE and painless disc prolapses are reasonably common. (Tonight I cut a neck that I was sure was an FCE that was a confirmed disc on imaging). Usually when we suspect a FCE, we think the dog is going to get better (about 90% of the time) so we don't do advanced studies. This is complicated by the fact that about 75% of dogs with intervertebral disc prolapses will get better regardless of their treatment. ALL dogs with FCE have permanent damage to their spinal cords and their prognosis is determined by where the permanent damage is once the profound swelling resolves. An MRI tentative diagnosis is best made in my hands with a study performed within the first 48 hrs from the time of injury. Studies made later can be suspicious if the area of permanent damage can be visualized on MRI, many times it is too small.Now that we know more about what can happen to dog's blood vessels...recurrent bleeds from hypertension, vascular obstruction secondary to hypercoagulation syndromes like platlet abnormalities or Cushings disease, vasculitis secondary to tick bourne diseases are likely reasons to see spinal cord disease that looks like FCE may be recurrent and can often be detected on MRI.I think the statement that FCE's are not known to recur in the same dog is true to the best of my knowledge.steveTo: VetRehab From: physio@...Date: Wed, 29 Sep 2010 16:37:06 -0600Subject: RE: Re: Fibrocartilagenous embolus