Re: Dalai Lama+

February 22, 2005

In a message dated 2/22/05 8:38:31 AM Pacific Standard Time,

Vienna19311@... writes:

I mentioned it because the words I read as his seemed to indicate any

ordinary person could be like him.

That's the whole point! :]

Think of Eliot's " Coming back to the same place and seeing it for the first

time. "

Don't get yr knickers in a twist by taking evthing so intensely personally,

dearest Toni, that way u will save yrself a lot of needless pain. We are all

sharing opinions, thereby helping one another to view things in diff ways. Wh

we identify too strongly w/our ideas, we get stuck.

U raised a legitimate question ab whether an advanced teacher can expect a

beginner to be like him. The answer, it seems to me, is YES, bec as Jesus

taught, our intrinsic nature [Div Guest] is the same. The teaching of being kind

can

be applied by ANYONE, as I tried to pt out in the case of the little boy.

It's that simple.

The DalAi Lama is not just an Icon but a very warm incarnate man and we know

you respect him, as well.

Pax n keep sharing. I think we ALL wld agree that u are one of the sincerest

members around the fire!

much love!

ao

February 22, 2005

Ditto all alice said, Toni. I honestly wasn't aware there was anything

upsetting. Never had a thought you were attacking. Just -- you made a point

(about something mike wrote, after all). There were clarifications, good ones. &

It moved on. So -- nothing personal meant or even considered.

But kindness. That spoke clear as a bell to me. I was raised liberal Catholic.

Very young, it was pointed out to us that Christ is there when you look in

anyone's eyes. His suffering represents the suffering of anyone who suffers.

Sure made more sense than all that going on about our being " a temple of the

Holy Ghost. " Temple? Ghost? But now I can connect even with those words. All

were gifts. I just had to open them.

" Take back your hands. " Well, I assumed you've read Women Who Run With The

Wolves, being one of those women yourself. If not -- oh, do you have a treat in

store.

My oldest wrote me about it one Mother's Day. It was important to us. May I

share part of that?

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Today I was walking in the Christ Church gardens and was stopped by an elderly

woman sitting on a bench before a huge expanse of green meadow, full of

thrushing long grass and honey-colored bulls... She asked me where I was from.

She said that she could tell I was an American from the way I carried myself as

I walked. Her name is *******. She sits before the swaying grass from dawn to

late afternoon, writing poems about the simplicity of accepting nature. I sat on

a damp bench with her for an hour, reading the poems she says she intuitively

felt she must write. She never studied poetry, she said. She grew up in

Switzerland and has been in Oxford for the past thirty years.

She draws individual blades of grass in the meadow, listening to their

collective thrush. I told her of how ill modern philosophy makes me at Oxford.

She agreed that most people don't see themselves reflected in nature.

I cried as I read about the skeleton woman, sitting in the Trinity lab this

morning. It reminds me of the Estes' depiction of the woman whose father allowed

her hands to be cut off by the devil. I have founded a goddess cult here with my

Oxford friends. There is this tremendous need amongst young adults to give voice

to experiential pain and the treatment of those introspective and female. My

young friends here have such a desire to use words to allude to spirit and love

and synthesis with the energy surrounding them. They so adore the words goddess

and divine and ecstatic. They are just aching to be part of a mystery cult. And

I think we've created one. These friends have been the skeleton woman-both in a

general sense and as individuals. They are aching to connect in terms of shared

pain.

Yesterday I walked up to them and said that we should change the meaning of the

word companion to 'those who break chocolate together'. There is an incredible

interest in the Sophia cult amongst young people. It has originated in a

third-wave feminism and popular female music artists sharing their pain on a

mass-scale. These mass-culture developments provided an education, a

starting-point for liberation from mass values that they never were exposed to

growing up. My friends here don't have mothers who tell them that 'Truth is

beauty, and beauty is truth.' They have mothers that tell them: 'You shouldn't

wear your glasses, you need to look more fun.'

If I shared the essence of my mother's confidence in nature with these gorgeous

little friends, I consider my life given tremendous value. My mother handed me

back my hands every time she told me she couldn't understand why someone was

cruel to me, every time she told me that I was magnificent because I was me. She

was the one to tell me that I was beautiful in every way.

What use are any of us to each other if we can not delight in our collective and

individual beauty? There are young people that want the Sophia cult, there are

young people-lots of them-who have never been told they were beautiful in every

way. There are so many facing a laughing devil, crying on bloody stumps of arms.

Thank you for your most gorgeously integrative work. Baudelaire once wrote that

good poetry has a power of sorcery and your poem conjured up a spirit of agony

and beauty. Thank you for that gorgeous experience of life force.

yours,

L

I have all her letters from this time. This is the child who looked out a window

one night when she wasn't even 5 and told me 'there are stars in the sky so far

away that you can only see them in your mind.'

So -- what a gift to me, that whole howling blossom, running all four paws...

and cubs, to boot. A gift we give each other back and forth. And now I give it

to you.

x's

deborah

February 22, 2005

Dear Alice,

My knickers are always in a twist...don't think, were i ever to become a saint

it would not still be a fault of mine.

My difference with you, dear Alice,I haven't your stature or your standing. My

ego still gets irrateted quite often. That much I will always admit, the

rest....well we see it differently. Whenever i take a step to really say what I

think, many people are around to be outraged. You could have said the same

thing, and many times you have.

Something about my charming personality seems to get many other people's gander

up. Ordinarily that doesn't phase me too much. If I get burned at the steak, it

ought at least to be for my own opinions, not for how someone misconstrues them.

Yep, i do have strong opinions and occassionally the knowledge to back them up.

Sometimes just the experiences. But I picked this route, and only cry out when

it gets too much at a time.

I seem to have spent large tracts of time as a member of the oppositition which

is where I found my truth. Funny thing is, I take a great deal of time and

effort to work things out...rightly or wrongly. i just wish those that disagree

so often would do the same thing...as well as actually read what I said.

Anyway, no one has to agree with me....but gee, occassionaly it would be nice to

hear someone say. ...i don't agree but I see your point.

Don't expect a sudden rebirth from me. I am alone a lot and I do take

communication more seriously than those always among people. It doesn't do much

but hurt a while, and my ego can always stand that....funny thing is, when it is

all said and done. mostly I still think I was right....and the hassle was worth

it.

My question was whether an ordinary person without being loved from the begining

and tutored in the right way would be able to recognize the grace he was given

to be the wise man he is. My whole point was the " something extra " . The extra

power and love we can receive, which we recognize as not our own.

So, shouldn't have messed with a known person...probably should have kept my

mouth shut and just mull things over within my self.

you quote one of my favorites:

" Think of Eliot's " Coming back to the same place and seeing it for the first

time. "

But that was not where I was coming from in this. I was trying, obviously

hopelessly to get behind the obvious...and to get to the point where we really

do recognize the grace and are thankful, really thankful all our lives.

The Dali lama's obvious holiness isn't ordinary in my book, and i could not,

ordinary as i am, ever hope to be as he is.And those who have never known love,

really would never understand him either.

But what do i know?

How to get my knickers in a twist...yes but damn it all i had a serious point I

thought needed mentioning...and all we have left is my twisted knickers.

love, Alice, anyway. maybe I am so far out of it

noone wants to take the time to figure out where i am coming from...I don't walk

the same path, obviously. I walk only mine...and I do it wholeheartedly...which

again is why " my knickers bother me when others have not a clue to where I am.

Toni

From: IonaDove@...

To: JUNG-FIRE

Sent: Tuesday, February 22, 2005 5:12 PM

Subject: Re: Dalai Lama+

In a message dated 2/22/05 8:38:31 AM Pacific Standard Time,

Vienna19311@... writes:

I mentioned it because the words I read as his seemed to indicate any

ordinary person could be like him.

That's the whole point! :]

Think of Eliot's " Coming back to the same place and seeing it for the first

time. "

Don't get yr knickers in a twist by taking evthing so intensely personally,

dearest Toni, that way u will save yrself a lot of needless pain. We are all

sharing opinions, thereby helping one another to view things in diff ways. Wh

we identify too strongly w/our ideas, we get stuck.

U raised a legitimate question ab whether an advanced teacher can expect a

beginner to be like him. The answer, it seems to me, is YES, bec as Jesus

taught, our intrinsic nature [Div Guest] is the same. The teaching of being

kind can

be applied by ANYONE, as I tried to pt out in the case of the little boy.

It's that simple.

The DalAi Lama is not just an Icon but a very warm incarnate man and we know

you respect him, as well.

Pax n keep sharing. I think we ALL wld agree that u are one of the sincerest

members around the fire!

much love!

ao

February 22, 2005

Deborah, Toni, all,

Thanks Deborah. Exacting... " If I shared the essence of my mother's

confidence in nature with these gorgeous little friends, I consider

my life given tremendous value. "

***

> " Take back your hands. "

" Pity for the outer figure really means indulging in one's own blind spot "

Chapter 5; The Feminine in Fairy Tales; M.L. Von Franz

An entire book on this subject: Leaving My Father's House. n Woodman

to whit, p.151, " When you give me back my arms, my voice becomes

yours. When you release me into life, I will know whom to call

forth. " (Ch. Redeeming Eve's Body)

" The process of petrification begins with an arrogant feeling that

other people are all miserable, second-rate creatures. " p.139 Ch: The

Blind Badgerd.

Individuation in Fairy Tales; M.L. Von franz

***

When you meet the Buddah on the road, forgive him.

regards,

February 23, 2005

<<The Dali lama's obvious holiness isn't ordinary in my book,>>

Indeed! But the quote was:

As HH Dalai Lama says, all this really needs to get going is ordinary human

intelligence and ordinary human kindness. A mere step in this direction of

itself opens up the pathway to further refinement of your own attitude, futher

purification of your obscurations of conflicting emotion and primitive beliefs

about reality.

THAT'S what we (I mike alice...) were speaking of. So this is apples and

oranges.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

The other part of taking back your hands was what I sent not long ago. Remember?

" Set thine hand and thy soul to serve man with God. "

Hand and Soul

http://jungcircle.com/muse/Rossetti.htm

Sharp, aka Fiona Macleod, mother of the Celtic Revival, writes in his

bio of Rossetti:

....To this point in Hand and Soul I have kept close to the narrative itself and

have dealt with it in extenso, both because of its beauty as a creation by the

subject of this record and because of its thorough individuality; but I wall now

quote at length the important passages that follow, valuable not only for their

inherent significance but also because of their specifically affecting the

personality of Rossetti himself. In fact, these passages may be regarded as

directly personal utterances applicable to himself as an artist, and this I know

from his own lips as well as from every natural evidence; so that I have no

hesitation in transcribing what amounts to an artistic confessio fideli, to

Rossetti's own convictions as to how an artist should work with both " hand and

soul " towards the accomplishment of every conception. Their applicability to all

imaginatively and emotionally creative work will be manifest to many, and the

central idea is certainly that which it would be well if most persons besides

those who " create " would take to heart -- that true life is the truest worship

and truest praise, " for with God is no lust of godhead. "

.... But when he looked in her eyes, he wept. And she came to him, and cast

her hair over him, and, took her hands about his forehead, and spoke again:

" Thou hast said, " she continued, gently, " that faith failed thee. This cannot

be so. Either thou hadst it not, or thou hast it. But who bade thee strike the

point betwixt love and faith? Wouldst thou sift the warm breeze from the sun

that quickens it? Who bade thee turn upon God and say: " Behold, my offering is

of earth, and not worthy: thy fire comes not upon it: therefore, though I slay

not my brother whom thou acceptest, I will depart before thou smite me. " Why

shouldst thou rise up and tell God He is not content? Had He, of His warrant,

certified so to thee? Be not nice to seek out division; but possess thy love in

sufficiency: assuredly this is faith, for the heart must believe first. What He

hath set in thine heart to do, that do thou; and even though thou do it {31} "

without thought of Him, it shall be well done: it is this sacrifice that He

asketh of thee, and His flame is upon it for a sign. Think not of Him; but of

His love and thy love. For God is no morbid exactor: He hath no hand to bow

beneath, nor a foot, that thou shouldst kiss it. "

And Chiaro held silence, and wept into her hair which covered his face; and

the salt tears that he shed ran through her hair upon his lips; and he tasted

the bitterness of shame.

Then the fair woman, that was his soul, spoke again to him, saying:

" And for this thy last purpose, and for those unprofitable truths of thy

teaching,-thine heart hath already put them away, and it needs not that I lay my

bidding upon thee. How is it that thou, a man, wouldst say coldly to the mind

what God hath said to the heart warmly? Thy will was honest and wholesome; but

look well lest this also be folly,-to say, 'I, in doing this, do strengthen God

among men.' When at any time hath he cried unto thee, saying, 'My son, lend me

thy shoulder, for I fall?' Deemest thou that the men who enter God's temple in

malice, to the provoking of blood, and neither for his love nor for his wrath

will abate their purpose,-shall afterwards stand with thee in the porch, midway

between Him and themselves, to give ear unto thy thin voice, which merely the

fall of their visors can drown, and to see thy hands, stretched feebly, tremble

among their swords? Give thou to God no more than he asketh of thee; but to man

also, that which is man's. In all that thou doest, work from thine own heart,

simply; for his heart is as thine, when thine is wise and humble; and he shall

have understanding of thee. One drop of rain is as another, and the sun's prism

in all: and shalt not thou be as he, whose lives are the breath of One? Only by

making thyself his equal can he learn to hold communion with thee, and at last

own thee above him. Not till thou lean over the water shalt thou see thine image

therein: stand erect, and it shall slope from thy feet and be lost. Know that

there is but this means whereby thou may'st serve God with man:-Set thine hand

and thy soul to serve man with God. "

And when she that spoke had said these words within Chiaro's spirit, she left

his side quietly, and stood up as he had first seen her; with her fingers laid

together, and her eyes steadfast, and with the breadth of her long dress

covering her feet on the floor. And, speaking again, she said:

" Chiaro, servant of God, take now thine Art unto thee, and paint me thus, as I

am, to know me: weak, as I am, and in the weeds of this time; only with eyes

which seek out labour, and with a faith, not learned, yet jealous of prayer. Do

this; so shall thy soul stand before thee always, and perplex thee no more. "

And Chiaro did as she bade him. While he worked, his face grew solemn with

knowledge: and before the shadows had turned, his work was done. Having

finished, he lay back where he sat, and was asleep immediately: for the growth

of that strong sunset was heavy about him, and he felt weak and haggard; like

one just come out of a dusk, hollow country, bewildered with echoes, where he

had lost himself, and who has not slept for many days and nights. And when she

saw him lie back, the beautiful woman came to him, and sat at his head, gazing,

and quieted his sleep with her voice.

***

When I am in my heart and you are in your heart, there is no distance between

us.

Interesting to note that Fiona ( Sharp) was with Rossetti when Rossetti

died. Close companion at the end. And Sharp went on to join WBYeats -- let me

get a short list -- Annie Horniman (who sponsored the Abbey Threatre, Dublin),

Florence Farr (artist, magician, mistress of G. B. Shaw), S. L. MacGregor

Mathers, Aleister Crowley, Israel Regardie, A. E. Waite, Arthue Machen, and many

others in the Hermetic Order of the Golden Dawn.

February 23, 2005

Beautiful, .

Thank you.

My daughter is an ancient historian with a specialty in philosophy and Greek --

and an " especial " (as Wilde would say) affinity for the influence of the

classical on the ns (which we share). Thus the focus on the platonic

eros: Beauty as the direct apprehension of the Forms.

some notes

Beauty is the true gold of the Romantic ideal. From Plato's Symposium, the

eternal hymn to EROS:

'This, my dear Socrates,' said the stranger of Mantineia, 'is that life above

all others which man should live, in the contemplation of beauty absolute; a

beauty which if you once beheld, you would see not to be after the measure of

gold .... what if man had eyes to see the true beauty-the divine beauty, I mean,

pure and clear and unalloyed, not clogged with the pollutions of mortality and

all the colours and vanities of human life-thither looking, and holding converse

with the true beauty simple and divine? Remember how in that communion only,

beholding beauty with the eye of the mind, he will be enabled to bring forth,

not images of beauty, but realities (for he has hold not of an image but of a

reality), and bringing forth and nourishing true virtue to become the friend of

God and be immortal, if mortal man may. Would that be an ignoble life?'

For a Neoplatonic spin, this passage from FICINO

http://jungcircle.com/muse/ficino.html (and always dear old Plotinus...)

and of course the key to it all would be:

Giordano Bruno, THE HEROIC FRENZIES

http://www.esotericarchives.com/bruno/furori7.htm

x's

deborah

February 23, 2005

Best to all,

When you meet the Buddah on the road, forgive him.

regards,

N: Good one, SC <s>

Blessings,

--

No virus found in this outgoing message.

Checked by AVG Anti-Virus.

Version: 7.0.300 / Virus Database: 266.1.0 - Release Date: 2/18/2005

February 23, 2005

Dear Deborah,

Thanks for explaining.I wish the whole quote would have been there.

Also the hands bit, thanks.

Toni

Re: Dalai Lama+

<<The Dali lama's obvious holiness isn't ordinary in my book,>>

Indeed! But the quote was:

As HH Dalai Lama says, all this really needs to get going is ordinary human

intelligence and ordinary human kindness. A mere step in this direction of

itself opens up the pathway to further refinement of your own attitude, futher

purification of your obscurations of conflicting emotion and primitive beliefs

about reality.

THAT'S what we (I mike alice...) were speaking of. So this is apples and

oranges.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

The other part of taking back your hands was what I sent not long ago.

Remember?

" Set thine hand and thy soul to serve man with God. "

Hand and Soul

http://jungcircle.com/muse/Rossetti.htm

Sharp, aka Fiona Macleod, mother of the Celtic Revival, writes in his

bio of Rossetti:

...To this point in Hand and Soul I have kept close to the narrative itself

and have dealt with it in extenso, both because of its beauty as a creation by

the subject of this record and because of its thorough individuality; but I wall

now quote at length the important passages that follow, valuable not only for

their inherent significance but also because of their specifically affecting the

personality of Rossetti himself. In fact, these passages may be regarded as

directly personal utterances applicable to himself as an artist, and this I know

from his own lips as well as from every natural evidence; so that I have no

hesitation in transcribing what amounts to an artistic confessio fideli, to

Rossetti's own convictions as to how an artist should work with both " hand and

soul " towards the accomplishment of every conception. Their applicability to all

imaginatively and emotionally creative work will be manifest to many, and the

central idea is certainly that which it would

.... But when he looked in her eyes, he wept. And she came to him, and cast

her hair over him, and, took her hands about his forehead, and spoke again:

" Thou hast said, " she continued, gently, " that faith failed thee. This

cannot be so. Either thou hadst it not, or thou hast it. But who bade thee

strike the point betwixt love and faith? Wouldst thou sift the warm breeze from

the sun that quickens it? Who bade thee turn upon God and say: " Behold, my

offering is of earth, and not worthy: thy fire comes not upon it: therefore,

though I slay not my brother whom thou acceptest, I will depart before thou

smite me. " Why shouldst thou rise up and tell God He is not content? Had He, of

His warrant, certified so to thee? Be not nice to seek out division; but possess

thy love in sufficiency: assuredly this is faith, for the heart must believe

first. What He hath set in thine heart to do, that do thou; and even though thou

do it {31} " without thought of Him, it shall be well done: it is this sacrifice

that He asketh of thee, and His flame is upon it for a sign. Think not of Him;

but of His love and thy love.