Guest guest Posted April 18, 2011 Report Share Posted April 18, 2011 Absolutely Haskel. I am also keen to look to converting over to healing foods. I have an orchard and an excess of good cider apple vinegar from my husbands failed scrumpy efforts! I'm going to make herb vinegars. I am also concerned about our right to continue producing tinctures. I am also keen to become as local and sustainable as possible so it will make me focus my products on prolific herbs that I grow and harvest. What I would like though is the list of those that are now classified as medicines that I can no longer " sell " without a license. Thanks Marilena for the clarification of the rules, it was great to read them all laid out rather than in the jumbled mess in my head. Zoe www.zoehawes.co.uk Medical Herbalist MNIMH CPP Dip. Phyt. Buteyko Breathing Practitoner " Wild Drugs " 'A Foragers Guide to Healing Plants' Gaia 2010 Bath 01761 439920 > . > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted April 18, 2011 Report Share Posted April 18, 2011 Hello Haskel, If you're looking for a foolproof total traceability system that will cope with making products too, then please get in touch off list: info@... Lorraine Lorraine Hodgkinson MNIMH MRCHM HERBS AND HELPERS 6, Butts Fold, Cockermouth, Cumbria, CA13 9HY. UK. Tel: +44 (0) 1900 826392 Mobile: 07761 489838 (O2) www.herbalmedicineuk.com > This is the most succinct and useful explanation of the current and new situation i've read. Thanks Marilena. > I intend to carry on with my market stall, and shop and to find ways to work around the law, i love the idea of finding a historical food reference for many medicinal herbs. > the full traceability logs seem arduous but make a lot of sense. > I find it hard to believe that the MHRA will be interested in searching out herbalists on market stalls to prosecute. > I believe selling on market stalls or shops has never been legal, so i'll carry on, otherwise i'd have to get another job, and i'm not qualified for anything else. > market stalls are a great way to meet the public. > As for creams and for cosmetics , Aromantic do a little e-book for £2.50 explaining the basic legislation around selling cosmetics to the public. > haskel > > > > > > > > Dear Zoe, do not panic. > > You do not have to wait for the MHRA to tell you what to do, if you understand and know the rules, you can work it out for yourself. > > So her is my interpretation of the current situation, hopefully correct: > > > > 12.1 is still intact. > > 12.2 has been replaced by DTHMP > > > > 12.1 is for herbalists, dispensing (selling) herbs after a one to one consultation (OTOC we could call it) > > 12.2 is for retail, ie. shops, market stalls etc selling herbs Over the Counter (OTC). > > > > Generally, legislation tends to be with either > > -positive list (what is allowed) > > -negative list (what is not allowed) > > > > 12.1 tells you that you can give certain herbs , which are restricted from public sale, after a one to one consultation, and all other herbs as well. > > 12.2 now has been replaced by Licensed Products, but the exception is ANY HERB WHICH CAN BE USED AS A FOOD OR COSMETIC. > > > > I do not think that judicially it is allowed for the MHRA to restrict people to a postiive list of foods (that would mean the government tells you what you can eat), so they have to work with a negative list of foods which you can not eat. > > In this case, any herb which is used medicinally ONLY, can not be used (sold) as a food anymore. > > So that is where the current change actually affects us, unless you provide licensed products, which are allowed to be sold through that licence. > > > > This means, that if you can prove that a herb is used as a food, you are technically allowed to sell it. > > In the meantime, yuo need to check , that that herb is not on the medicine list, which would be prohibitive from selling it as a food. > > > > Generally, herbs which have been used for some time as a food will be allowed, for example, elderflowers, mint, etc. > > Mrs. Grieves' Modern Herbal (1936) has many mentions of food uses of herbs, which you could use as a guidance, for example. > > > > For the medicinal ONLY herbs, you can allways give a MINI consultation, > > and your knwoledge is free to give if yuo choose to do so. > > The main points here are > > - confidentiality > > -taking clients details > > -asking client to sign a disclaimer and consent form > > -record keeping with batchnumbers of the herbs yuo are selling. > > The main concern is safety and traceabilty, ie. you need to be able to trace the herbs back from the client to yourself, and from yourself to your supplier. This is in case the client has an adverse reaction or other problem with the herbs you gave. > > The process of traceability needs to be reversable, ie. from the supplier to you, then to the client, as well, in case the supplier comes up with a problem , for example misidentification of a herb resulting in the wrong herb being sold, in which case a recall procedure needs to be carried out. > > > > > > > > Hopefully this helps. > > Marilena. > > > > > > > > ogroups.com > > From: zoehawes@... > > Date: Thu, 14 Apr 2011 09:18:12 +0100 > > Subject: GSL > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I wondered if anyone had any idea if the General Sales List of herbs that can still be sold without a product license was finished yet. There was a GSL on their website a few months ago but now I can't find it. I presume it has been removed to be amended. > > > > I am fighting my utter dispair at loosing my right to make good quality simple remedies from my dispensary to sell in the farmers markets. My presence in the Farmers Markets has been a huge benefit to my practice and really established my place as a source of good quality herbal medicine for simple ailments that DO NOT require a full consultation (that is prohibitively expensive for colds and coughs etc). > > I am currently re thinking everything that I can sell still and I need " the List " to do that. > > > > I would be interested in knowing if there is any chance that we can establish a right as Medical Herbalists to do this, within the regulatory process. > > I would also like reassurance that those working in groups with the government towards regulation do not have a conflict of interests and would benefit if we lost our right to make our own tinctures because they are involved in businesses supplying tinctures and herbs to practitioners. > > I wondered if any one had any information on the process involved and who was doing/involved in it. > > > > Thanks > > > > Zoe > > > > www.zoehawes.co.uk > > Medical Herbalist > > MNIMH CPP Dip. Phyt. > > Buteyko Breathing Practitoner > > > > " Wild Drugs " 'A Foragers Guide to Healing Plants' Gaia 2010 > > > > Bath > > 01761 439920 > > > > > > > > > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted April 18, 2011 Report Share Posted April 18, 2011 Hi Zoe, The process of classifying herbs is still ongoing - the MHRA have a borderline section which you could contact to ask for up to date information: email: Medicines.Borderline.Advice@... ________________________________ To: ukherbal-list Sent: Mon, April 18, 2011 8:07:29 AM Subject: Re: Re: GSL Â Absolutely Haskel. I am also keen to look to converting over to healing foods. I have an orchard and an excess of good cider apple vinegar from my husbands failed scrumpy efforts! I'm going to make herb vinegars. I am also concerned about our right to continue producing tinctures. I am also keen to become as local and sustainable as possible so it will make me focus my products on prolific herbs that I grow and harvest. What I would like though is the list of those that are now classified as medicines that I can no longer " sell " without a license. Thanks Marilena for the clarification of the rules, it was great to read them all laid out rather than in the jumbled mess in my head. Zoe www.zoehawes.co.uk Medical Herbalist MNIMH CPP Dip. Phyt. Buteyko Breathing Practitoner " Wild Drugs " 'A Foragers Guide to Healing Plants' Gaia 2010 Bath 01761 439920 > . > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted April 18, 2011 Report Share Posted April 18, 2011 Dear Zoe, I called MHRA by phone, Borderline department, the person is quite helpful and also does not have the rules as clear as we would like it to be , so it seems a process of change in which we are all learning. Anyway, it seems that there is not that much change for us at all, even selling single herbs to the general public seems to be oke, the only really enforcable point is that there can be NO CLAIMS MADE, so that the customer will not know what the herbs should be used for, or how they should be used. If you are going to give advice on this, while selling it, you are going to be responsible for what you advice, and therefore you need to have records, as I already explained. The point here is, that there needs to be a Responsible Person for the medicinal use of herbs, either in the form of a herbalist who is responsible through the consultation with the client, or through the Licensing Process, where the medicinal use of the herbs has been proven and claims can be made on the product with advice on how to use it. We are allowed to sell single herbs to the general public, but not prepared mixtures, unless we sell Licensed Products. These will be the only prepared mixtures for general sale, unless they consist ENTIRELY of food-classified herbs, in which case they do not need a Licence. So the GSL has been replaced by Licensed Products, but single herbs can still be sold, without any claims at all. For gathering your own herbs, making tinctures etc, we can do this, as long as we KEEP RECORDS, of every step: -where was it picked, and when, by whom -when was it processed, dried, powdered, made into tincture, where, how and by whom Everything you make needs to have a record and a batchnumber, which needs to be put onto the finished product as you prepare it for your client. These are however prepared products and can therefore not be sold to the general public without a one to one consultation. I hope this clarifies it sufficiently! Marilena Hettema, MNIMH. To: ukherbal-list From: humuluslup61@... Date: Mon, 18 Apr 2011 02:02:40 -0700 Subject: Re: Re: GSL Hi Zoe, The process of classifying herbs is still ongoing - the MHRA have a borderline section which you could contact to ask for up to date information: email: Medicines.Borderline.Advice@... ________________________________ To: ukherbal-list Sent: Mon, April 18, 2011 8:07:29 AM Subject: Re: Re: GSL Absolutely Haskel. I am also keen to look to converting over to healing foods. I have an orchard and an excess of good cider apple vinegar from my husbands failed scrumpy efforts! I'm going to make herb vinegars. I am also concerned about our right to continue producing tinctures. I am also keen to become as local and sustainable as possible so it will make me focus my products on prolific herbs that I grow and harvest. What I would like though is the list of those that are now classified as medicines that I can no longer " sell " without a license. Thanks Marilena for the clarification of the rules, it was great to read them all laid out rather than in the jumbled mess in my head. Zoe www.zoehawes.co.uk Medical Herbalist MNIMH CPP Dip. Phyt. Buteyko Breathing Practitoner " Wild Drugs " 'A Foragers Guide to Healing Plants' Gaia 2010 Bath 01761 439920 > . > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted April 18, 2011 Report Share Posted April 18, 2011 Hi Haskel, thank you. I think the main caution we need to excercise is in the claims we make while talking to people while selling herbs, as we are becoming responsible for the claims we make, and for any advice on how to use the herbs. But there are ways around that, too. If you write a leaflet, and put a disclaimer on the front page, with saying that this is for information only, and for full advice one needs a consultation with a qualified herbalist, you can give out information, as long as you do not make direct claims. So historical use is very useful . This is indeed, as already pointed out on this list, a very strict enforcement of 12.1, as it has always been in place. It was always part of 12.1, not to sell to the public with claims, but after a one-to-one consultation only. Marilena Hettema To: ukherbal-list From: haskeladamson@... Date: Sun, 17 Apr 2011 20:00:47 +0000 Subject: Re: GSL This is the most succinct and useful explanation of the current and new situation i've read. Thanks Marilena. I intend to carry on with my market stall, and shop and to find ways to work around the law, i love the idea of finding a historical food reference for many medicinal herbs. the full traceability logs seem arduous but make a lot of sense. I find it hard to believe that the MHRA will be interested in searching out herbalists on market stalls to prosecute. I believe selling on market stalls or shops has never been legal, so i'll carry on, otherwise i'd have to get another job, and i'm not qualified for anything else. market stalls are a great way to meet the public. As for creams and for cosmetics , Aromantic do a little e-book for £2.50 explaining the basic legislation around selling cosmetics to the public. haskel > > > Dear Zoe, do not panic. > You do not have to wait for the MHRA to tell you what to do, if you understand and know the rules, you can work it out for yourself. > So her is my interpretation of the current situation, hopefully correct: > > 12.1 is still intact. > 12.2 has been replaced by DTHMP > > 12.1 is for herbalists, dispensing (selling) herbs after a one to one consultation (OTOC we could call it) > 12.2 is for retail, ie. shops, market stalls etc selling herbs Over the Counter (OTC). > > Generally, legislation tends to be with either > -positive list (what is allowed) > -negative list (what is not allowed) > > 12.1 tells you that you can give certain herbs , which are restricted from public sale, after a one to one consultation, and all other herbs as well. > 12.2 now has been replaced by Licensed Products, but the exception is ANY HERB WHICH CAN BE USED AS A FOOD OR COSMETIC. > > I do not think that judicially it is allowed for the MHRA to restrict people to a postiive list of foods (that would mean the government tells you what you can eat), so they have to work with a negative list of foods which you can not eat. > In this case, any herb which is used medicinally ONLY, can not be used (sold) as a food anymore. > So that is where the current change actually affects us, unless you provide licensed products, which are allowed to be sold through that licence. > > This means, that if you can prove that a herb is used as a food, you are technically allowed to sell it. > In the meantime, yuo need to check , that that herb is not on the medicine list, which would be prohibitive from selling it as a food. > > Generally, herbs which have been used for some time as a food will be allowed, for example, elderflowers, mint, etc. > Mrs. Grieves' Modern Herbal (1936) has many mentions of food uses of herbs, which you could use as a guidance, for example. > > For the medicinal ONLY herbs, you can allways give a MINI consultation, > and your knwoledge is free to give if yuo choose to do so. > The main points here are > - confidentiality > -taking clients details > -asking client to sign a disclaimer and consent form > -record keeping with batchnumbers of the herbs yuo are selling. > The main concern is safety and traceabilty, ie. you need to be able to trace the herbs back from the client to yourself, and from yourself to your supplier. This is in case the client has an adverse reaction or other problem with the herbs you gave. > The process of traceability needs to be reversable, ie. from the supplier to you, then to the client, as well, in case the supplier comes up with a problem , for example misidentification of a herb resulting in the wrong herb being sold, in which case a recall procedure needs to be carried out. > > > > Hopefully this helps. > Marilena. > > > > ogroups.com > From: zoehawes@... > Date: Thu, 14 Apr 2011 09:18:12 +0100 > Subject: GSL > > > > > > > I wondered if anyone had any idea if the General Sales List of herbs that can still be sold without a product license was finished yet. There was a GSL on their website a few months ago but now I can't find it. I presume it has been removed to be amended. > > I am fighting my utter dispair at loosing my right to make good quality simple remedies from my dispensary to sell in the farmers markets. My presence in the Farmers Markets has been a huge benefit to my practice and really established my place as a source of good quality herbal medicine for simple ailments that DO NOT require a full consultation (that is prohibitively expensive for colds and coughs etc). > I am currently re thinking everything that I can sell still and I need " the List " to do that. > > I would be interested in knowing if there is any chance that we can establish a right as Medical Herbalists to do this, within the regulatory process. > I would also like reassurance that those working in groups with the government towards regulation do not have a conflict of interests and would benefit if we lost our right to make our own tinctures because they are involved in businesses supplying tinctures and herbs to practitioners. > I wondered if any one had any information on the process involved and who was doing/involved in it. > > Thanks > > Zoe > > www.zoehawes.co.uk > Medical Herbalist > MNIMH CPP Dip. Phyt. > Buteyko Breathing Practitoner > > " Wild Drugs " 'A Foragers Guide to Healing Plants' Gaia 2010 > > Bath > 01761 439920 > > > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted April 18, 2011 Report Share Posted April 18, 2011 A chiropractor I work with is being taken to 'court' by 2 journalists as at one clinic she works at they had listed spinal deformities as something that chiropractic can treat. Even though she had asked the mixed alternative therapy clinic staff to remove it, she is being held responsible and may have an 'admonishment' against her name. This means, that although she is a good chiropractor, she would never be able to get a job abroad. I think I will keep my head down and just carry on. I hope to get a website up and running in August and I will double check everything I say. I think there are some people out there just waiting to pounce and expose all alternative to orthodox medicine as bogus. I haven't got anything to prove to these people, and I don't intend to get into an argument with them. Maggie Subject: RE: Re: GSL To: " herbalist mail " <ukherbal-list > Date: Monday, 18 April, 2011, 19:33 Hi Haskel, thank you. I think the main caution we need to excercise is in the claims we make while talking to people while selling herbs, as we are becoming responsible for the claims we make, and for any advice on how to use the herbs. But there are ways around that, too. If you write a leaflet, and put a disclaimer on the front page, with saying that this is for information only, and for full advice one needs a consultation with a qualified herbalist, you can give out information, as long as you do not make direct claims. So historical use is very useful . This is indeed, as already pointed out on this list, a very strict enforcement of 12.1, as it has always been in place. It was always part of 12.1, not to sell to the public with claims, but after a one-to-one consultation only. Marilena Hettema To: ukherbal-list From: haskeladamson@... Date: Sun, 17 Apr 2011 20:00:47 +0000 Subject: Re: GSL This is the most succinct and useful explanation of the current and new situation i've read. Thanks Marilena. I intend to carry on with my market stall, and shop and to find ways to work around the law, i love the idea of finding a historical food reference for many medicinal herbs. the full traceability logs seem arduous but make a lot of sense. I find it hard to believe that the MHRA will be interested in searching out herbalists on market stalls to prosecute. I believe selling on market stalls or shops has never been legal, so i'll carry on, otherwise i'd have to get another job, and i'm not qualified for anything else. market stalls are a great way to meet the public. As for creams and for cosmetics , Aromantic do a little e-book for £2.50 explaining the basic legislation around selling cosmetics to the public. haskel > > > Dear Zoe, do not panic. > You do not have to wait for the MHRA to tell you what to do, if you understand and know the rules, you can work it out for yourself. > So her is my interpretation of the current situation, hopefully correct: > > 12.1 is still intact. > 12.2 has been replaced by DTHMP > > 12.1 is for herbalists, dispensing (selling) herbs after a one to one consultation (OTOC we could call it) > 12.2 is for retail, ie. shops, market stalls etc selling herbs Over the Counter (OTC). > > Generally, legislation tends to be with either > -positive list (what is allowed) > -negative list (what is not allowed) > > 12.1 tells you that you can give certain herbs , which are restricted from public sale, after a one to one consultation, and all other herbs as well. > 12.2 now has been replaced by Licensed Products, but the exception is ANY HERB WHICH CAN BE USED AS A FOOD OR COSMETIC. > > I do not think that judicially it is allowed for the MHRA to restrict people to a postiive list of foods (that would mean the government tells you what you can eat), so they have to work with a negative list of foods which you can not eat. > In this case, any herb which is used medicinally ONLY, can not be used (sold) as a food anymore. > So that is where the current change actually affects us, unless you provide licensed products, which are allowed to be sold through that licence. > > This means, that if you can prove that a herb is used as a food, you are technically allowed to sell it. > In the meantime, yuo need to check , that that herb is not on the medicine list, which would be prohibitive from selling it as a food. > > Generally, herbs which have been used for some time as a food will be allowed, for example, elderflowers, mint, etc. > Mrs. Grieves' Modern Herbal (1936) has many mentions of food uses of herbs, which you could use as a guidance, for example. > > For the medicinal ONLY herbs, you can allways give a MINI consultation, > and your knwoledge is free to give if yuo choose to do so. > The main points here are > - confidentiality > -taking clients details > -asking client to sign a disclaimer and consent form > -record keeping with batchnumbers of the herbs yuo are selling. > The main concern is safety and traceabilty, ie. you need to be able to trace the herbs back from the client to yourself, and from yourself to your supplier. This is in case the client has an adverse reaction or other problem with the herbs you gave. > The process of traceability needs to be reversable, ie. from the supplier to you, then to the client, as well, in case the supplier comes up with a problem , for example misidentification of a herb resulting in the wrong herb being sold, in which case a recall procedure needs to be carried out. > > > > Hopefully this helps. > Marilena. > > > > ogroups.com > From: zoehawes@... > Date: Thu, 14 Apr 2011 09:18:12 +0100 > Subject: GSL > > > > > > > I wondered if anyone had any idea if the General Sales List of herbs that can still be sold without a product license was finished yet. There was a GSL on their website a few months ago but now I can't find it. I presume it has been removed to be amended. > > I am fighting my utter dispair at loosing my right to make good quality simple remedies from my dispensary to sell in the farmers markets. My presence in the Farmers Markets has been a huge benefit to my practice and really established my place as a source of good quality herbal medicine for simple ailments that DO NOT require a full consultation (that is prohibitively expensive for colds and coughs etc). > I am currently re thinking everything that I can sell still and I need " the List " to do that. > > I would be interested in knowing if there is any chance that we can establish a right as Medical Herbalists to do this, within the regulatory process. > I would also like reassurance that those working in groups with the government towards regulation do not have a conflict of interests and would benefit if we lost our right to make our own tinctures because they are involved in businesses supplying tinctures and herbs to practitioners. > I wondered if any one had any information on the process involved and who was doing/involved in it. > > Thanks > > Zoe > > www.zoehawes.co.uk > Medical Herbalist > MNIMH CPP Dip. Phyt. > Buteyko Breathing Practitoner > > " Wild Drugs " 'A Foragers Guide to Healing Plants' Gaia 2010 > > Bath > 01761 439920 > > > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Join the conversation
You are posting as a guest. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.
Note: Your post will require moderator approval before it will be visible.