Re: advertising and herbalists

[Guest guest]

Hello Kystyna,

Please speak to them on this. If they say your wording is

in breach and you refuse to change it then you can be prosecuted and fined.

Please check the relevant area on the ASA website.

They wouldn't be able to take you to court if it wasn't in the law.

Lorraine

Lorraine Hodgkinson MNIMH MRCHM

HERBS AND HELPERS

6, Butts Fold, Cockermouth,

Cumbria, CA13 9HY. UK.

Tel: +44 (0) 1900 826392

Mobile: 07761 489838 (O2)

www.herbalmedicineuk.com

> Dear Lorraine,

>

> The guidelines are NOT law. The ASA is a voluntary, non-statutory

> body. Unlike, say, the Financial Services Authority, it has no powers

> to set laws, to enforce them, or to prosecute if you transgress or

> fail to comply.

>

> Best regards,

>

> Krystyna

>

> At 12:06 07/05/2011, you wrote:

> >

> >

> >The guidelines are law now.

> >

> >Lorraine Hodgkinson MNIMH MRCHM

> >HERBS AND HELPERS

> >6, Butts Fold, Cockermouth,

> >Cumbria, CA13 9HY. UK.

> >Tel: +44 (0) 1900 826392

> >Mobile: 07761 489838 (O2)

> >www.herbalmedicineuk.com

> >

> >On 7 May 2011, at 10:21, Chenery

> > wrote:

> >

> > > Why not? - but then, why bother?

> > >

> > >

> > >

>

> -

> Krystyna Krzyzak MNIMH, North Devon

>

>

[Guest guest]

Hi Lorraine,

The ASA can refer (and so can others) to bodies

that can prosecute if it is within their remit,

such as Office of Fair Trading, but it can't prosecute or fine itself.

See: http://www.asa.org.uk/ASA-action/Sanctions.aspx

Best regards,

Krystyna

At 12:46 07/05/2011, you wrote:

>

>

>Hello Kystyna,

>Please speak to them on this. If they say your

>wording is in breach and you refuse to change it

>then you can be prosecuted and fined. Please

>check the relevant area on the ASA website.

>

>They wouldn't be able to take you to court if it wasn't in the law.

>

>Lorraine

>

>Lorraine Hodgkinson MNIMH MRCHM

>HERBS AND HELPERS

>6, Butts Fold, Cockermouth,

>Cumbria, CA13 9HY. UK.

>Tel: +44 (0) 1900 826392

>Mobile: 07761 489838 (O2)

>www.herbalmedicineuk.com

>

>On 7 May 2011, at 12:37, KrystynaKrzyzak

> wrote:

>

> > Dear Lorraine,

> >

> > The guidelines are NOT law. The ASA is a voluntary, non-statutory

> > body. Unlike, say, the Financial Services Authority, it has no powers

> > to set laws, to enforce them, or to prosecute if you transgress or

> > fail to comply.

> >

> > Best regards,

> >

> > Krystyna

> >

> > At 12:06 07/05/2011, you wrote:

> > >

> > >

> > >The guidelines are law now.

> > >

> > >Lorraine Hodgkinson MNIMH MRCHM

> > >HERBS AND HELPERS

> > >6, Butts Fold, Cockermouth,

> > >Cumbria, CA13 9HY. UK.

> > >Tel: +44 (0) 1900 826392

> > >Mobile: 07761 489838 (O2)

> > >www.herbalmedicineuk.com

> > >

> > >On 7 May 2011, at 10:21, Chenery

> > ><<mailto:pc%40rutlandbio.com><mailto:pc%40rut

> landbio.com>pc@...> wrote:

> > >

> > > > Why not? - but then, why bother?

> > > >

> > > >

> > > >

> >

> > -

> > Krystyna Krzyzak MNIMH, North Devon

> >

> >

[Guest guest]

You don't need law to take anyone to Court but you need law to win.

Commercial misrepresentation is covered in both Statute and Common law, as

we expect ASA to appreciate. ASA also uses advertising to expose fraudulent

and untruthful advertising.

> Hi Lorraine,

>

> The ASA can refer (and so can others) to bodies

> that can prosecute if it is within their remit,

> such as Office of Fair Trading, but it can't prosecute or fine itself.

> See: http://www.asa.org.uk/ASA-action/Sanctions.aspx

>

> Best regards,

>

> Krystyna

>

>

> At 12:46 07/05/2011, you wrote:

>>

>>

>>Hello Kystyna,

>>Please speak to them on this. If they say your

>>wording is in breach and you refuse to change it

>>then you can be prosecuted and fined. Please

>>check the relevant area on the ASA website.

>>

>>They wouldn't be able to take you to court if it wasn't in the law.

>>

>>Lorraine

>>

>>Lorraine Hodgkinson MNIMH MRCHM

>>HERBS AND HELPERS

>>6, Butts Fold, Cockermouth,

>>Cumbria, CA13 9HY. UK.

>>Tel: +44 (0) 1900 826392

>>Mobile: 07761 489838 (O2)

>>www.herbalmedicineuk.com

>>

>>On 7 May 2011, at 12:37, KrystynaKrzyzak

>> wrote:

>>

>> > Dear Lorraine,

>> >

>> > The guidelines are NOT law. The ASA is a voluntary, non-statutory

>> > body. Unlike, say, the Financial Services Authority, it has no powers

>> > to set laws, to enforce them, or to prosecute if you transgress or

>> > fail to comply.

>> >

>> > Best regards,

>> >

>> > Krystyna

>> >

>> > At 12:06 07/05/2011, you wrote:

>> > >

>> > >

>> > >The guidelines are law now.

>> > >

>> > >Lorraine Hodgkinson MNIMH MRCHM

>> > >HERBS AND HELPERS

>> > >6, Butts Fold, Cockermouth,

>> > >Cumbria, CA13 9HY. UK.

>> > >Tel: +44 (0) 1900 826392

>> > >Mobile: 07761 489838 (O2)

>> > >www.herbalmedicineuk.com

>> > >

>> > >On 7 May 2011, at 10:21, Chenery

>> > ><<mailto:pc%40rutlandbio.com><mailto:pc%40rut

>> landbio.com>pc@...> wrote:

>> > >

>> > > > Why not? - but then, why bother?

>> > > >

>> > > >

>> > > >

>> >

>> > -

>> > Krystyna Krzyzak MNIMH, North Devon

>> >

>> >

[Guest guest]

Okay Krystyna,

Yes I read the bit about prosecution as a consequence of

refusing to comply with the ASA and the fact that this would lead to

prosecution. It still means that once they're on your case you either comply or

face legal action. Hope that's a clearer way of putting it! The main point as

they stress is to avoid negative publicity by complying, if not then ...

It means that they still have teeth and can move you into the position of a

prosecution if they see fit.

Lorraine

Lorraine Hodgkinson MNIMH MRCHM

HERBS AND HELPERS

6, Butts Fold, Cockermouth,

Cumbria, CA13 9HY. UK.

Tel: +44 (0) 1900 826392

Mobile: 07761 489838 (O2)

www.herbalmedicineuk.com

> Hi Lorraine,

>

> The ASA can refer (and so can others) to bodies

> that can prosecute if it is within their remit,

> such as Office of Fair Trading, but it can't prosecute or fine itself.

> See: http://www.asa.org.uk/ASA-action/Sanctions.aspx

>

> Best regards,

>

> Krystyna

>

> At 12:46 07/05/2011, you wrote:

> >

> >

> >Hello Kystyna,

> >Please speak to them on this. If they say your

> >wording is in breach and you refuse to change it

> >then you can be prosecuted and fined. Please

> >check the relevant area on the ASA website.

> >

> >They wouldn't be able to take you to court if it wasn't in the law.

> >

> >Lorraine

> >

> >Lorraine Hodgkinson MNIMH MRCHM

> >HERBS AND HELPERS

> >6, Butts Fold, Cockermouth,

> >Cumbria, CA13 9HY. UK.

> >Tel: +44 (0) 1900 826392

> >Mobile: 07761 489838 (O2)

> >www.herbalmedicineuk.com

> >

> >On 7 May 2011, at 12:37, KrystynaKrzyzak

> > wrote:

> >

> > > Dear Lorraine,

> > >

> > > The guidelines are NOT law. The ASA is a voluntary, non-statutory

> > > body. Unlike, say, the Financial Services Authority, it has no powers

> > > to set laws, to enforce them, or to prosecute if you transgress or

> > > fail to comply.

> > >

> > > Best regards,

> > >

> > > Krystyna

> > >

> > > At 12:06 07/05/2011, you wrote:

> > > >

> > > >

> > > >The guidelines are law now.

> > > >

> > > >Lorraine Hodgkinson MNIMH MRCHM

> > > >HERBS AND HELPERS

> > > >6, Butts Fold, Cockermouth,

> > > >Cumbria, CA13 9HY. UK.

> > > >Tel: +44 (0) 1900 826392

> > > >Mobile: 07761 489838 (O2)

> > > >www.herbalmedicineuk.com

> > > >

> > > >On 7 May 2011, at 10:21, Chenery

> > > ><<mailto:pc%40rutlandbio.com><mailto:pc%40rut

> > landbio.com>pc@...> wrote:

> > > >

> > > > > Why not? - but then, why bother?

> > > > >

> > > > >

> > > > >

> > >

> > > -

> > > Krystyna Krzyzak MNIMH, North Devon

> > >

> > >

[Guest guest]

Okay so I've over summarised, I was looking at the ultimate outcome initiated by

them. I also have personal experience if knowing someone who was on the

receiving end, they mean it!

I'm happy that this should mean that some of the more spectacular claims out

there will be dealt with. Unfortunately some people want to believe everything

they read, particularly older generation and are convinced that if someone can

say something then it must be right otherwise they wouldn't be allowed to say

it.

Lorraine

Lorraine Hodgkinson MNIMH MRCHM

HERBS AND HELPERS

6, Butts Fold, Cockermouth,

Cumbria, CA13 9HY. UK.

Tel: +44 (0) 1900 826392

Mobile: 07761 489838 (O2)

www.herbalmedicineuk.com

> You don't need law to take anyone to Court but you need law to win.

> Commercial misrepresentation is covered in both Statute and Common law, as

> we expect ASA to appreciate. ASA also uses advertising to expose fraudulent

> and untruthful advertising.

>

> > Hi Lorraine,

> >

> > The ASA can refer (and so can others) to bodies

> > that can prosecute if it is within their remit,

> > such as Office of Fair Trading, but it can't prosecute or fine itself.

> > See: http://www.asa.org.uk/ASA-action/Sanctions.aspx

> >

> > Best regards,

> >

> > Krystyna

> >

> >

> > At 12:46 07/05/2011, you wrote:

> >>

> >>

> >>Hello Kystyna,

> >>Please speak to them on this. If they say your

> >>wording is in breach and you refuse to change it

> >>then you can be prosecuted and fined. Please

> >>check the relevant area on the ASA website.

> >>

> >>They wouldn't be able to take you to court if it wasn't in the law.

> >>

> >>Lorraine

> >>

> >>Lorraine Hodgkinson MNIMH MRCHM

> >>HERBS AND HELPERS

> >>6, Butts Fold, Cockermouth,

> >>Cumbria, CA13 9HY. UK.

> >>Tel: +44 (0) 1900 826392

> >>Mobile: 07761 489838 (O2)

> >>www.herbalmedicineuk.com

> >>

> >>On 7 May 2011, at 12:37, KrystynaKrzyzak

> >> wrote:

> >>

> >> > Dear Lorraine,

> >> >

> >> > The guidelines are NOT law. The ASA is a voluntary, non-statutory

> >> > body. Unlike, say, the Financial Services Authority, it has no powers

> >> > to set laws, to enforce them, or to prosecute if you transgress or

> >> > fail to comply.

> >> >

> >> > Best regards,

> >> >

> >> > Krystyna

> >> >

> >> > At 12:06 07/05/2011, you wrote:

> >> > >

> >> > >

> >> > >The guidelines are law now.

> >> > >

> >> > >Lorraine Hodgkinson MNIMH MRCHM

> >> > >HERBS AND HELPERS

> >> > >6, Butts Fold, Cockermouth,

> >> > >Cumbria, CA13 9HY. UK.

> >> > >Tel: +44 (0) 1900 826392

> >> > >Mobile: 07761 489838 (O2)

> >> > >www.herbalmedicineuk.com

> >> > >

> >> > >On 7 May 2011, at 10:21, Chenery

> >> > ><<mailto:pc%40rutlandbio.com><mailto:pc%40rut

> >> landbio.com>pc@...> wrote:

> >> > >

> >> > > > Why not? - but then, why bother?

> >> > > >

> >> > > >

> >> > > >

> >> >

> >> > -

> >> > Krystyna Krzyzak MNIMH, North Devon

> >> >

> >> >

[Guest guest]

Surely we should all be more interested in what is right rather than who is

right

Sent from my iPhone

On 7 May 2011, at 13:28, Herbs and Helpers

wrote:

> Okay so I've over summarised, I was looking at the ultimate outcome initiated

by them. I also have personal experience if knowing someone who was on the

receiving end, they mean it!

>

> I'm happy that this should mean that some of the more spectacular claims out

there will be dealt with. Unfortunately some people want to believe everything

they read, particularly older generation and are convinced that if someone can

say something then it must be right otherwise they wouldn't be allowed to say

it.

>

> Lorraine

>

> Lorraine Hodgkinson MNIMH MRCHM

> HERBS AND HELPERS

> 6, Butts Fold, Cockermouth,

> Cumbria, CA13 9HY. UK.

> Tel: +44 (0) 1900 826392

> Mobile: 07761 489838 (O2)

> www.herbalmedicineuk.com

>

>

>

> > You don't need law to take anyone to Court but you need law to win.

> > Commercial misrepresentation is covered in both Statute and Common law, as

> > we expect ASA to appreciate. ASA also uses advertising to expose fraudulent

> > and untruthful advertising.

> >

> > > Hi Lorraine,

> > >

> > > The ASA can refer (and so can others) to bodies

> > > that can prosecute if it is within their remit,

> > > such as Office of Fair Trading, but it can't prosecute or fine itself.

> > > See: http://www.asa.org.uk/ASA-action/Sanctions.aspx

> > >

> > > Best regards,

> > >

> > > Krystyna

> > >

> > >

> > > At 12:46 07/05/2011, you wrote:

> > >>

> > >>

> > >>Hello Kystyna,

> > >>Please speak to them on this. If they say your

> > >>wording is in breach and you refuse to change it

> > >>then you can be prosecuted and fined. Please

> > >>check the relevant area on the ASA website.

> > >>

> > >>They wouldn't be able to take you to court if it wasn't in the law.

> > >>

> > >>Lorraine

> > >>

> > >>Lorraine Hodgkinson MNIMH MRCHM

> > >>HERBS AND HELPERS

> > >>6, Butts Fold, Cockermouth,

> > >>Cumbria, CA13 9HY. UK.

> > >>Tel: +44 (0) 1900 826392

> > >>Mobile: 07761 489838 (O2)

> > >>www.herbalmedicineuk.com

> > >>

> > >>On 7 May 2011, at 12:37, KrystynaKrzyzak

> > >> wrote:

> > >>

> > >> > Dear Lorraine,

> > >> >

> > >> > The guidelines are NOT law. The ASA is a voluntary, non-statutory

> > >> > body. Unlike, say, the Financial Services Authority, it has no powers

> > >> > to set laws, to enforce them, or to prosecute if you transgress or

> > >> > fail to comply.

> > >> >

> > >> > Best regards,

> > >> >

> > >> > Krystyna

> > >> >

> > >> > At 12:06 07/05/2011, you wrote:

> > >> > >

> > >> > >

> > >> > >The guidelines are law now.

> > >> > >

> > >> > >Lorraine Hodgkinson MNIMH MRCHM

> > >> > >HERBS AND HELPERS

> > >> > >6, Butts Fold, Cockermouth,

> > >> > >Cumbria, CA13 9HY. UK.

> > >> > >Tel: +44 (0) 1900 826392

> > >> > >Mobile: 07761 489838 (O2)

> > >> > >www.herbalmedicineuk.com

> > >> > >

> > >> > >On 7 May 2011, at 10:21, Chenery

> > >> > ><<mailto:pc%40rutlandbio.com><mailto:pc%40rut

> > >> landbio.com>pc@...> wrote:

> > >> > >

> > >> > > > Why not? - but then, why bother?

> > >> > > >

> > >> > > >

> > >> > > >

> > >> >

> > >> > -

> > >> > Krystyna Krzyzak MNIMH, North Devon

> > >> >

> > >> >

[Guest guest]

Yes! Thank goodness.........but it's good to know that ASA remit covers UK

websites now. Nothing to do with professional standards but to do with

plain, not complex, truth. Same ad printed advertising. Nothing else had

changed.

> Surely we should all be more interested in what is right rather than who

is right

>

> Sent from my iPhone

>

> On 7 May 2011, at 13:28, Herbs and Helpers

wrote:

>

>> Okay so I've over summarised, I was looking at the ultimate outcome

initiated by them. I also have personal experience if knowing someone who

was on the receiving end, they mean it!

>>

>> I'm happy that this should mean that some of the more spectacular claims

out there will be dealt with. Unfortunately some people want to believe

everything they read, particularly older generation and are convinced that

if someone can say something then it must be right otherwise they wouldn't

be allowed to say it.

>>

>> Lorraine

>>

>> Lorraine Hodgkinson MNIMH MRCHM

>> HERBS AND HELPERS

>> 6, Butts Fold, Cockermouth,

>> Cumbria, CA13 9HY. UK.

>> Tel: +44 (0) 1900 826392

>> Mobile: 07761 489838 (O2)

>> www.herbalmedicineuk.com

>>

>>

>>

>> > You don't need law to take anyone to Court but you need law to win.

>> > Commercial misrepresentation is covered in both Statute and Common law,

as

>> > we expect ASA to appreciate. ASA also uses advertising to expose

fraudulent

>> > and untruthful advertising.

>> >

>> > > Hi Lorraine,

>> > >

>> > > The ASA can refer (and so can others) to bodies

>> > > that can prosecute if it is within their remit,

>> > > such as Office of Fair Trading, but it can't prosecute or fine

itself.

>> > > See: http://www.asa.org.uk/ASA-action/Sanctions.aspx

>> > >

>> > > Best regards,

>> > >

>> > > Krystyna

>> > >

>> > >

>> > > At 12:46 07/05/2011, you wrote:

>> > >>

>> > >>

>> > >>Hello Kystyna,

>> > >>Please speak to them on this. If they say your

>> > >>wording is in breach and you refuse to change it

>> > >>then you can be prosecuted and fined. Please

>> > >>check the relevant area on the ASA website.

>> > >>

>> > >>They wouldn't be able to take you to court if it wasn't in the law.

>> > >>

>> > >>Lorraine

>> > >>

>> > >>Lorraine Hodgkinson MNIMH MRCHM

>> > >>HERBS AND HELPERS

>> > >>6, Butts Fold, Cockermouth,

>> > >>Cumbria, CA13 9HY. UK.

>> > >>Tel: +44 (0) 1900 826392

>> > >>Mobile: 07761 489838 (O2)

>> > >>www.herbalmedicineuk.com

>> > >>

>> > >>On 7 May 2011, at 12:37, KrystynaKrzyzak

>> > >> wrote:

>> > >>

>> > >> > Dear Lorraine,

>> > >> >

>> > >> > The guidelines are NOT law. The ASA is a voluntary, non-statutory

>> > >> > body. Unlike, say, the Financial Services Authority, it has no

powers

>> > >> > to set laws, to enforce them, or to prosecute if you transgress or

>> > >> > fail to comply.

>> > >> >

>> > >> > Best regards,

>> > >> >

>> > >> > Krystyna

>> > >> >

>> > >> > At 12:06 07/05/2011, you wrote:

>> > >> > >

>> > >> > >

>> > >> > >The guidelines are law now.

>> > >> > >

>> > >> > >Lorraine Hodgkinson MNIMH MRCHM

>> > >> > >HERBS AND HELPERS

>> > >> > >6, Butts Fold, Cockermouth,

>> > >> > >Cumbria, CA13 9HY. UK.

>> > >> > >Tel: +44 (0) 1900 826392

>> > >> > >Mobile: 07761 489838 (O2)

>> > >> > >www.herbalmedicineuk.com

>> > >> > >

>> > >> > >On 7 May 2011, at 10:21, Chenery

>> > >> > ><<mailto:pc%40rutlandbio.com><mailto:pc%40rut

>> > >> landbio.com>pc@...> wrote:

>> > >> > >

>> > >> > > > Why not? - but then, why bother?

>> > >> > > >

>> > >> > > >

>> > >> > > >

>> > >> >

>> > >> > -

>> > >> > Krystyna Krzyzak MNIMH, North Devon

>> > >> >

>> > >> >

[Guest guest]

Hi All

 

" Graham / Henrietta, can we upload files here, or do we need to send them

to you? Is there a way to link to Zotero? (@ non anoraks, this is an

extremely useful research handling program - stores papers you have

found interesting in a similar format to itunes) (and it's free) "

Yes you can upload files, photos, links etc.

 

There is quite a lot of functionality which isn't used much.  Guess it all stems

from the early days of the list when most people were still on dial-up.

 

Anyway go to http://health.groups.yahoo.com/group/ukherbal-list/

 

On the left is a menu list.

 

If you go to Files you'll see there are already some folders set up, use the

most appropriate one.  Remember to set it send out an announcement that a file

has been uploaded.

 

In Links there are two folders " Info links " currently empty so put some links

in!  and " Practitioner links " where you can put links to your own website.

 

There's also a Photo Album and a Calendar for listing events (again not used).

 

All Group members can upload documents etc.

 

Cheers

Graham White, B.Sc. (Herb. Med.)

Medical Herbalist

--------------------------------

Phone: 01279 305793

Mobile: 07740 766335

www.gcwhite.co.uk

[Guest guest]

Yes but failure to comply could mean legal action and prosecution based on those

guidelines. I think I'm maybe getting too concise.

Lorraine

Lorraine Hodgkinson MNIMH MRCHM

HERBS AND HELPERS

6, Butts Fold, Cockermouth,

Cumbria, CA13 9HY. UK.

Tel: +44 (0) 1900 826392

Mobile: 07761 489838 (O2)

www.herbalmedicineuk.com

> No, guidelines are guidelines; laws are laws.

> On 7 May 2011 12:01, " Herbs and Helpers "

> wrote:

> > The guidelines are law now.

> >

> > Lorraine Hodgkinson MNIMH MRCHM

> > HERBS AND HELPERS

> > 6, Butts Fold, Cockermouth,

> > Cumbria, CA13 9HY. UK.

> > Tel: +44 (0) 1900 826392

> > Mobile: 07761 489838 (O2)

> > www.herbalmedicineuk.com

> >

> >

> >

> >

> >> Why not? - but then, why bother?

> >>

> >>

> >>

> >> On 4 May 2011 18:14, Herbs and Helpers <herbsandhelpers@...

> >wrote:

> >>

> >>>

> >>>

> >>> Try running that past the ASA!

> >>>

> >>> Lorraine Hodgkinson MNIMH MRCHM

> >>> HERBS AND HELPERS

> >>> 6, Butts Fold, Cockermouth,

> >>> Cumbria, CA13 9HY. UK.

> >>> Tel: +44 (0) 1900 826392

> >>> Mobile: 07761 489838 (O2)

> >>> www.herbalmedicineuk.com

> >>>

> >>>

> >>>

> >>>> I am a healthcare professional, with a government stated intention to

> >>>> regulate me.

> >>>>

> >>>> Gosh, this is like Spartacus!

> >>>>

> >>>> Sally Owen

> >>>>

> >>>>

> >>>>> I thought I was a healthcare professional....

> >>>>>

> >>>>> Maggie

> >>>>>

> >>>>>

> >>>>>

> >>>>>>> The following, really interesting article on Promotion of herbal

> >>> medicine

> >>>>>> and the law in the US, appeared on the [herb] list today:

> >>>>>> http://www.rmhiherbal.org/a/f.ahr3.rights.html

> >>>>>>> Although villification of herbalists is even more draconian in the

> >>> States,

> >>>>>> this article contains some useful wording and ideas for us.

> >>>>>>>

> >>>>>>>

[Guest guest]

The law may very well be the law, but it still needs interpretation - after all

that is one of the reasons why we have an adversarial court system.

Guidelines too need interpretation and arguing who is and who isn't a 'health

professional' would be one of the interpretive points from any court case. The

ASA may give their interpretation - but it is not definitive in law, it is

simply an opinion.

Without getting hung up on one word (diagnosis), I think we should all look at

what we say in our advertising and if we feel that we can defend what we say in

it, well then - go ahead.

I am sure that one of the objectives of organisations such as the Nightingale

collaboration is to strike fear (and loathing)in our midst.

Anne

[Guest guest]

Hi Lorraine,my understanding of the rules is that as long as your wording is

such that it cannot be interpreted as discouraging people from seeing a doctor

(or other " suitable " health professional), you can get away with a lot. And of

course it needs to be truthful - the fact is that what and how we diagnose is

very different from the conventional medics, and there is a number of conditions

that we could not diagnose for sure without further investigations (eg gall

stones) - I tend to think that we can easily get the message across of what we

do without using the " diagnosis " word. 

>

>

> Subject: Re: advertising and herbalists

> To: ukherbal-list

> Date: Thursday, 5 May, 2011, 12:02

>

>

>

> Hi

>

> If you have been told that, then I would argue that you have been given

inaccurate information/advice.

>

> As says that is wrong - certainly wrong because that is not what they

publish.

>

> What the guidance on the ASA website actually says is:

>

> " Marketers should not discourage essential treatment. They should not offer

specific advice on, diagnosis of or treatment for serious or prolonged

conditions unless it is conducted under the supervision of a doctor or other

suitably qualified health professional (e.g. one subject to regulation by a

statutory or recognised medical or health profession body). Accurate and

responsible general information about such conditions may, however, be offered. "

>

> There is no mention of the HPC.

>

> It does say 'recognised health profession' but that is not the same as the HPC

(obviously).

>

> So if you have been given different advice then that is not good - not

following their own codes and guidance, in my opinion. Surely, the body

responsible for ensuring advertising meets standards, must ensure it operates

within its own published material. If they mean HPC, then they have to say HPC.

>

> Also answer depends on the question one may put to them - there are ways to

phrase questions - which of course you know (sorry if that sounds a bit

patronising - blame email). If you simply ask them to review your copy, then

they comment if they see anything they might consider potentially problematic.

But if you ask them - can I call myself a healthcare professional, then they are

likely to reply with - e.g. only doctors can do that.

>

> In part it is ignorance on their part - not knowing what herbalists do etc

etc.

>

> But mainly, I think, it is because individuals (no disrespect intended) are

dealt with by basic operatives who can't make decisions, and will be ultra

careful in the advice they give.

>

> Same thing over " diagnosis " . If you ask them, can I say I diagnose, they will

most likely say no. But in fact - do they understand what diagnosis is?

>

> The question of whether or not they have deemed herbalists to fall under the

category of healthcare professionals or not, is something to take up with them

(but at a different level).

>

> On what basis have they made that decision? by what authority? etc etc. If the

DoH considers herbalists healthcare pros, then who are the ASA to argue.

>

> As said, they are not a regulator. So when did they appoint themselves

arbiter of who is and who is not a healthcare professional?

>

> However, I would suggest that those discussions take place at a higher level

than just the copy advice team, where, no disrespect intended, but it is likely

you have been dealing with a low level operative.

>

> If you have received some advice from them, it would be helpful to pass it on

to the councils of whatever PA (all of them) you belong to. Within NIMH we've

been asking members to contact Council if they receive any complaints as a

result of e.g Nightingale, and I know that other PAs such as the RCHM is doing

the same. If anyone receives a complaint, then the PA can support them. but

meanwhile it would be interesting to see what advice is being given to

individuals - and if it differs to anything they have given to e.g NIMH Council.

>

> all the best

>

>

>

>

[Guest guest]

Hi ,I think that's the problem - ASA recognizes only the medical or

professional bodies that belong to HPC (this is the exisitng official

recognition, not aspiring). Very narrow interpretation of the actual CAP rules -

I agree.

Subject: Re: advertising and herbalists

To: ukherbal-list

Date: Thursday, 5 May, 2011, 22:12

 

Hi That's precisely why those discussions/negotiations need to take

place at a higher level i.e council of governing body. There is a

difference between an individual having discussions and a professional

body - just having a title has clout - no offence intended.

No need to dig it out - I have it on my desktop, thanks anyway.

Presume you refer to the bit:

" They should not offer specific advice on, diagnosis of or treatment

for serious or prolonged conditions unless it is conducted under the

supervision of a doctor or other suitably qualified health professional

(e.g. one subject to regulation by a statutory or recognised medical or

health profession body). Accurate and responsible general information

about such conditions may, however, be offered. " (my highlighting)

The advice states a body/professional is either 'regulated by statute'

or 'recognised' as being part of a professional body. As we are not yet

regulated by stature, that doesn't apply. But we are recognised - if not

then why or how are we heading for SR? Herbalists are an aspirant group

with HPC. If that is not recognition, then I don't know what is.

Providing evidence of efficacy is a different matter - and we need to be

addressing that.Especially when the likes of Dr Oakley suggests that

rubbing a nettle skin with your hand or a flannel is as effective as a

dock leaf. The man has obviously never suffered a nettle sting as the

pain lasts for days if you don't use dock.

atb

[Guest guest]

Hello ,

My main concern is that the NIMH leaflet currently uses the

word 'diagnosis' which because we are not healthcare professional in the eyes of

the ASA CAP guidelines is therefore in breach.

How can a professional body defend this position?

Lorraine

Lorraine Hodgkinson MNIMH MRCHM

HERBS AND HELPERS

6, Butts Fold, Cockermouth,

Cumbria, CA13 9HY. UK.

Tel: +44 (0) 1900 826392

Mobile: 07761 489838 (O2)

www.herbalmedicineuk.com

> Hi Lorraine,my understanding of the rules is that as long as your wording is

such that it cannot be interpreted as discouraging people from seeing a doctor

(or other " suitable " health professional), you can get away with a lot. And of

course it needs to be truthful - the fact is that what and how we diagnose is

very different from the conventional medics, and there is a number of conditions

that we could not diagnose for sure without further investigations (eg gall

stones) - I tend to think that we can easily get the message across of what we

do without using the " diagnosis " word.

>

>

>

> >

>

> >

>

> > Subject: Re: advertising and herbalists

>

> > To: ukherbal-list

>

> > Date: Thursday, 5 May, 2011, 12:02

>

> >

>

> >

>

> >

>

> > Hi

>

> >

>

> > If you have been told that, then I would argue that you have been given

inaccurate information/advice.

>

> >

>

> > As says that is wrong - certainly wrong because that is not what they

publish.

>

> >

>

> > What the guidance on the ASA website actually says is:

>

> >

>

> > " Marketers should not discourage essential treatment. They should not offer

specific advice on, diagnosis of or treatment for serious or prolonged

conditions unless it is conducted under the supervision of a doctor or other

suitably qualified health professional (e.g. one subject to regulation by a

statutory or recognised medical or health profession body). Accurate and

responsible general information about such conditions may, however, be offered. "

>

> >

>

> > There is no mention of the HPC.

>

> >

>

> > It does say 'recognised health profession' but that is not the same as the

HPC (obviously).

>

> >

>

> > So if you have been given different advice then that is not good - not

following their own codes and guidance, in my opinion. Surely, the body

responsible for ensuring advertising meets standards, must ensure it operates

within its own published material. If they mean HPC, then they have to say HPC.

>

> >

>

> > Also answer depends on the question one may put to them - there are ways to

phrase questions - which of course you know (sorry if that sounds a bit

patronising - blame email). If you simply ask them to review your copy, then

they comment if they see anything they might consider potentially problematic.

But if you ask them - can I call myself a healthcare professional, then they are

likely to reply with - e.g. only doctors can do that.

>

> >

>

> > In part it is ignorance on their part - not knowing what herbalists do etc

etc.

>

> >

>

> > But mainly, I think, it is because individuals (no disrespect intended) are

dealt with by basic operatives who can't make decisions, and will be ultra

careful in the advice they give.

>

> >

>

> > Same thing over " diagnosis " . If you ask them, can I say I diagnose, they

will most likely say no. But in fact - do they understand what diagnosis is?

>

> >

>

> > The question of whether or not they have deemed herbalists to fall under the

category of healthcare professionals or not, is something to take up with them

(but at a different level).

>

> >

>

> > On what basis have they made that decision? by what authority? etc etc. If

the DoH considers herbalists healthcare pros, then who are the ASA to argue.

>

> >

>

> > As said, they are not a regulator. So when did they appoint themselves

arbiter of who is and who is not a healthcare professional?

>

> >

>

> > However, I would suggest that those discussions take place at a higher level

than just the copy advice team, where, no disrespect intended, but it is likely

you have been dealing with a low level operative.

>

> >

>

> > If you have received some advice from them, it would be helpful to pass it

on to the councils of whatever PA (all of them) you belong to. Within NIMH we've

been asking members to contact Council if they receive any complaints as a

result of e.g Nightingale, and I know that other PAs such as the RCHM is doing

the same. If anyone receives a complaint, then the PA can support them. but

meanwhile it would be interesting to see what advice is being given to

individuals - and if it differs to anything they have given to e.g NIMH Council.

>

> >

>

> > all the best

>

> >

>

> >

>

> >

>

> >

[Guest guest]

My point is that a professional body should ensure that it's materials are not

in breach. From speaking with the ASA CAP team this would seem to be the case.

If they've told me then surely they've told them.

Lorraine

Lorraine Hodgkinson MNIMH MRCHM

HERBS AND HELPERS

6, Butts Fold, Cockermouth,

Cumbria, CA13 9HY. UK.

Tel: +44 (0) 1900 826392

Mobile: 07761 489838 (O2)

www.herbalmedicineuk.com

>

>

> The law may very well be the law, but it still needs interpretation - after

all that is one of the reasons why we have an adversarial court system.

> Guidelines too need interpretation and arguing who is and who isn't a 'health

professional' would be one of the interpretive points from any court case. The

ASA may give their interpretation - but it is not definitive in law, it is

simply an opinion.

> Without getting hung up on one word (diagnosis), I think we should all look at

what we say in our advertising and if we feel that we can defend what we say in

it, well then - go ahead.

> I am sure that one of the objectives of organisations such as the Nightingale

collaboration is to strike fear (and loathing)in our midst.

> Anne

>

>

[Guest guest]

Hi ,

Has the ASA got anything in writing, on its

website, about its interpretation of who they

consider to be a " health professional " , or point

to a case where they ruled that someone who is

not regulated by a statutory regulator could not

use the words diagnose/diagnosis in their marketing material?

And if so, shouldn't the second part of Rule 12.2 of the Cap Code be rewritten?

Currently this rule states:

12.2

Marketers must not discourage essential treatment

for conditions for which medical supervision

should be sought. For example, they must not

offer specific advice on, diagnosis of or

treatment for such conditions unless that advice,

diagnosis or treatment is conducted under the

supervision of a suitably qualified health

professional. Accurate and responsible general

information about such conditions may, however, be offered. (See rule 12.11.)

Health professionals will be deemed suitably

qualified only if they can provide suitable

credentials; for example, evidence of: relevant

professional expertise or qualifications; systems

for regular review of members’ skills and

competencies and suitable professional indemnity

insurance covering all services provided;

accreditation by a professional or regulatory

body that has systems for dealing with complaints

and taking disciplinary action and has

registration based on minimum standards for training and qualifications.

Best regards,

Krystyna

At 23:30 09/05/2011, you wrote:

>

>

>Hi ,I think that's the problem - ASA

>recognizes only the medical or professional

>bodies that belong to HPC (this is the exisitng

>official recognition, not aspiring). Very narrow

>interpretation of the actual CAP rules - I agree.

>

>

>

>Subject: Re: advertising and herbalists

>To: <mailto:ukherbal-list%40yahoogroups.com>ukherbal-list

>Date: Thursday, 5 May, 2011, 22:12

>

>Â

>

>Hi That's precisely why those discussions/negotiations need to take

>

>place at a higher level i.e council of governing body. There is a

>

>difference between an individual having discussions and a professional

>

>body - just having a title has clout - no offence intended.

>

>No need to dig it out - I have it on my desktop, thanks anyway.

>

>Presume you refer to the bit:

>

> " They should not offer specific advice on, diagnosis of or treatment

>

>for serious or prolonged conditions unless it is conducted under the

>

>supervision of a doctor or other suitably qualified health professional

>

>(e.g. one subject to regulation by a statutory or recognised medical or

>

>health profession body). Accurate and responsible general information

>

>about such conditions may, however, be offered. " (my highlighting)

>

>The advice states a body/professional is either 'regulated by statute'

>

>or 'recognised' as being part of a professional body. As we are not yet

>

>regulated by stature, that doesn't apply. But we are recognised - if not

>

>then why or how are we heading for SR? Herbalists are an aspirant group

>

>with HPC. If that is not recognition, then I don't know what is.

>

>Providing evidence of efficacy is a different matter - and we need to be

>

>addressing that.Especially when the likes of Dr Oakley suggests that

>

>rubbing a nettle skin with your hand or a flannel is as effective as a

>

>dock leaf. The man has obviously never suffered a nettle sting as the

>

>pain lasts for days if you don't use dock.

>

>atb

>

>

[Guest guest]

Dear Lorraine, the wording on the NIMH leaflet says; after (consultation) a

diagnosis is offered.

This is a broad interpretation of the word 'diagnosis', and implies a different

meaning from

diagnosing a disease on its own, which means ruling out differential diagnosis

etc. and confirming positively the nature of the disease itself,

based on the disease sympotms only, rather than giving a summary of a case

history, with a treatment plan, which is more the meaning of the words in the

leaflet, and summarizes the way we work. Furthermore, it is pointed out in the

NIMH leaflet, that referrals will be made where necessary.

I am sure that this is the reason that NIMh leaflet is not in contravention with

ASA guidelines, as pointed out by .

Kind regards,

Marilena.

To: ukherbal-list

From: herbsandhelpers@...

Date: Tue, 10 May 2011 07:56:43 +0100

Subject: Re: Re: advertising and herbalists

Hello ,

My main concern is that the NIMH leaflet currently uses the word 'diagnosis'

which because we are not healthcare professional in the eyes of the ASA CAP

guidelines is therefore in breach.

How can a professional body defend this position?

Lorraine

Lorraine Hodgkinson MNIMH MRCHM

HERBS AND HELPERS

6, Butts Fold, Cockermouth,

Cumbria, CA13 9HY. UK.

Tel: +44 (0) 1900 826392

Mobile: 07761 489838 (O2)

www.herbalmedicineuk.com

> Hi Lorraine,my understanding of the rules is that as long as your wording is

such that it cannot be interpreted as discouraging people from seeing a doctor

(or other " suitable " health professional), you can get away with a lot. And of

course it needs to be truthful - the fact is that what and how we diagnose is

very different from the conventional medics, and there is a number of conditions

that we could not diagnose for sure without further investigations (eg gall

stones) - I tend to think that we can easily get the message across of what we

do without using the " diagnosis " word.

>

>

>

> >

>

> >

>

> > Subject: Re: advertising and herbalists

>

> > To: ukherbal-list

>

> > Date: Thursday, 5 May, 2011, 12:02

>

> >

>

> >

>

> >

>

> > Hi

>

> >

>

> > If you have been told that, then I would argue that you have been given

inaccurate information/advice.

>

> >

>

> > As says that is wrong - certainly wrong because that is not what they

publish.

>

> >

>

> > What the guidance on the ASA website actually says is:

>

> >

>

> > " Marketers should not discourage essential treatment. They should not offer

specific advice on, diagnosis of or treatment for serious or prolonged

conditions unless it is conducted under the supervision of a doctor or other

suitably qualified health professional (e.g. one subject to regulation by a

statutory or recognised medical or health profession body). Accurate and

responsible general information about such conditions may, however, be offered. "

>

> >

>

> > There is no mention of the HPC.

>

> >

>

> > It does say 'recognised health profession' but that is not the same as the

HPC (obviously).

>

> >

>

> > So if you have been given different advice then that is not good - not

following their own codes and guidance, in my opinion. Surely, the body

responsible for ensuring advertising meets standards, must ensure it operates

within its own published material. If they mean HPC, then they have to say HPC.

>

> >

>

> > Also answer depends on the question one may put to them - there are ways to

phrase questions - which of course you know (sorry if that sounds a bit

patronising - blame email). If you simply ask them to review your copy, then

they comment if they see anything they might consider potentially problematic.

But if you ask them - can I call myself a healthcare professional, then they are

likely to reply with - e.g. only doctors can do that.

>

> >

>

> > In part it is ignorance on their part - not knowing what herbalists do etc

etc.

>

> >

>

> > But mainly, I think, it is because individuals (no disrespect intended) are

dealt with by basic operatives who can't make decisions, and will be ultra

careful in the advice they give.

>

> >

>

> > Same thing over " diagnosis " . If you ask them, can I say I diagnose, they

will most likely say no. But in fact - do they understand what diagnosis is?

>

> >

>

> > The question of whether or not they have deemed herbalists to fall under the

category of healthcare professionals or not, is something to take up with them

(but at a different level).

>

> >

>

> > On what basis have they made that decision? by what authority? etc etc. If

the DoH considers herbalists healthcare pros, then who are the ASA to argue.

>

> >

>

> > As said, they are not a regulator. So when did they appoint themselves

arbiter of who is and who is not a healthcare professional?

>

> >

>

> > However, I would suggest that those discussions take place at a higher level

than just the copy advice team, where, no disrespect intended, but it is likely

you have been dealing with a low level operative.

>

> >

>

> > If you have received some advice from them, it would be helpful to pass it

on to the councils of whatever PA (all of them) you belong to. Within NIMH we've

been asking members to contact Council if they receive any complaints as a

result of e.g Nightingale, and I know that other PAs such as the RCHM is doing

the same. If anyone receives a complaint, then the PA can support them. but

meanwhile it would be interesting to see what advice is being given to

individuals - and if it differs to anything they have given to e.g NIMH Council.

>

> >

>

> > all the best

>

> >

>

> >

>

> >

>

> >

[Guest guest]

Hi , I agree with . If an individual phones the ASA, the ASA employed

person answering the phone will give the answer according to her/his

instructions given.

If an organisation talks with ASA, ASA will try to help and consult with senior

management, and pass this on to someone who can give advice on best wording,

within the rules, and take into account the fact that this particular leaflet

will be distributed to the members of that organsation and subsequently

distributed to various clinics etc.

So if says that NIMH has talked through the text of this leaflet with ASA,

in my opinion there is a reasonable chance that ASA actually does not have any

problems with the particular wording as given.

Kind regards, Marilena.

To: ukherbal-list

From: anna.newton@...

Date: Mon, 9 May 2011 23:30:24 +0100

Subject: Re: Re: advertising and herbalists

Hi ,I think that's the problem - ASA recognizes only the medical or

professional bodies that belong to HPC (this is the exisitng official

recognition, not aspiring). Very narrow interpretation of the actual CAP rules -

I agree.

Subject: Re: advertising and herbalists

To: ukherbal-list

Date: Thursday, 5 May, 2011, 22:12

Hi That's precisely why those discussions/negotiations need to take

place at a higher level i.e council of governing body. There is a

difference between an individual having discussions and a professional

body - just having a title has clout - no offence intended.

No need to dig it out - I have it on my desktop, thanks anyway.

Presume you refer to the bit:

" They should not offer specific advice on, diagnosis of or treatment

for serious or prolonged conditions unless it is conducted under the

supervision of a doctor or other suitably qualified health professional

(e.g. one subject to regulation by a statutory or recognised medical or

health profession body). Accurate and responsible general information

about such conditions may, however, be offered. " (my highlighting)

The advice states a body/professional is either 'regulated by statute'

or 'recognised' as being part of a professional body. As we are not yet

regulated by stature, that doesn't apply. But we are recognised - if not

then why or how are we heading for SR? Herbalists are an aspirant group

with HPC. If that is not recognition, then I don't know what is.

Providing evidence of efficacy is a different matter - and we need to be

addressing that.Especially when the likes of Dr Oakley suggests that

rubbing a nettle skin with your hand or a flannel is as effective as a

dock leaf. The man has obviously never suffered a nettle sting as the

pain lasts for days if you don't use dock.

atb

[Guest guest]

i have come into this disussion late and have missed most of it so

sorry if this comment is inappropriate or has already been said but

during my four year training I was repeatedly told that fully qualified

medical herbalists have right to full primary diagnosis and that this

was something fought for and should be kept within our remit - which is

why we spent four years being educated to the extent that we were.

Only a few professions have this - medical doctors, chiropractors and

us. I may be totally wrong on this but this was what I was educated to

believe.

As an aside - the chiropractic profession's advertising ability has

been completed repressed in the last six months to the point that they

can only advertise conditions that have had top quality trials, i.e.

double blind placebo controlled - so even although they have been

treating very successfully conditions such as whiplash injury for

years, they are now not allowed to say that they do, because a clinical

trial has not been carried out specifically on whiplash. similarly with

many other routine conditions we see in clinic, which we have thousands

of case studies on, we still cannot advertise this. If this is the

future for herbal medicine and advertising - we have a massive problem,

because the approved level of proof is well beyond the majority of

herbalists budgets - i.e. gold standard trials.

Jean

Re: advertising and herbalists

To: ukherbal-list

Date: Thursday, 5 May, 2011, 22:12

Hi That's precisely why those discussions/negotiations need to take

place at a higher level i.e council of governing body. There is a

difference between an individual having discussions and a professional

body - just having a title has clout - no offence intended.

No need to dig it out - I have it on my desktop, thanks anyway.

Presume you refer to the bit:

" They should not offer specific advice on, diagnosis of or treatment

for serious or prolonged conditions unless it is conducted under the

supervision of a doctor or other suitably qualified health professional

(e.g. one subject to regulation by a statutory or recognised medical or

health profession body). Accurate and responsible general information

about such conditions may, however, be offered. " (my highlighting)

The advice states a body/professional is either 'regulated by statute'

or 'recognised' as being part of a professional body. As we are not yet

regulated by stature, that doesn't apply. But we are recognised - if not

then why or how are we heading for SR? Herbalists are an aspirant group

with HPC. If that is not recognition, then I don't know what is.

Providing evidence of efficacy is a different matter - and we need to be

addressing that.Especially when the likes of Dr Oakley suggests that

rubbing a nettle skin with your hand or a flannel is as effective as a

dock leaf. The man has obviously never suffered a nettle sting as the

pain lasts for days if you don't use dock.

atb

[Guest guest]

Hi

Who tells the chiropracters that they may not advertise whiplash treatment?

Thanks

>

>

> i have come into this disussion late and have missed most of it so

> sorry if this comment is inappropriate or has already been said but

> during my four year training I was repeatedly told that fully qualified

> medical herbalists have right to full primary diagnosis and that this

> was something fought for and should be kept within our remit - which is

> why we spent four years being educated to the extent that we were.

> Only a few professions have this - medical doctors, chiropractors and

> us. I may be totally wrong on this but this was what I was educated to

> believe.

>

> As an aside - the chiropractic profession's advertising ability has

> been completed repressed in the last six months to the point that they

> can only advertise conditions that have had top quality trials, i.e.

> double blind placebo controlled - so even although they have been

> treating very successfully conditions such as whiplash injury for

> years, they are now not allowed to say that they do, because a clinical

> trial has not been carried out specifically on whiplash. similarly with

> many other routine conditions we see in clinic, which we have thousands

> of case studies on, we still cannot advertise this. If this is the

> future for herbal medicine and advertising - we have a massive problem,

> because the approved level of proof is well beyond the majority of

> herbalists budgets - i.e. gold standard trials.

>

> Jean

>

> Re: advertising and herbalists

> To: ukherbal-list

> Date: Thursday, 5 May, 2011, 22:12

>

> Hi That's precisely why those discussions/negotiations need to take

>

> place at a higher level i.e council of governing body. There is a

>

> difference between an individual having discussions and a professional

>

> body - just having a title has clout - no offence intended.

>

> No need to dig it out - I have it on my desktop, thanks anyway.

>

> Presume you refer to the bit:

>

> " They should not offer specific advice on, diagnosis of or treatment

>

> for serious or prolonged conditions unless it is conducted under the

>

> supervision of a doctor or other suitably qualified health professional

>

> (e.g. one subject to regulation by a statutory or recognised medical or

>

> health profession body). Accurate and responsible general information

>

> about such conditions may, however, be offered. " (my highlighting)

>

> The advice states a body/professional is either 'regulated by statute'

>

> or 'recognised' as being part of a professional body. As we are not yet

>

> regulated by stature, that doesn't apply. But we are recognised - if not

>

> then why or how are we heading for SR? Herbalists are an aspirant group

>

> with HPC. If that is not recognition, then I don't know what is.

>

> Providing evidence of efficacy is a different matter - and we need to be

>

> addressing that.Especially when the likes of Dr Oakley suggests that

>

> rubbing a nettle skin with your hand or a flannel is as effective as a

>

> dock leaf. The man has obviously never suffered a nettle sting as the

>

> pain lasts for days if you don't use dock.

>

> atb

>

>

[Guest guest]

The general chiropractic council - all threatened with major action if

disobeyed. This has come to them via ASA

Re: advertising and herbalists

> To: ukherbal-list

> Date: Thursday, 5 May, 2011, 22:12

>

> Hi That's precisely why those discussions/negotiations need to

take

>

> place at a higher level i.e council of governing body. There is a

>

> difference between an individual having discussions and a professional

>

> body - just having a title has clout - no offence intended.

>

> No need to dig it out - I have it on my desktop, thanks anyway.

>

> Presume you refer to the bit:

>

> " They should not offer specific advice on, diagnosis of or treatment

>

> for serious or prolonged conditions unless it is conducted under the

>

> supervision of a doctor or other suitably qualified health

professional

>

> (e.g. one subject to regulation by a statutory or recognised medical

or

>

> health profession body). Accurate and responsible general information

>

> about such conditions may, however, be offered. " (my highlighting)

>

> The advice states a body/professional is either 'regulated by statute'

>

> or 'recognised' as being part of a professional body. As we are not

yet

>

> regulated by stature, that doesn't apply. But we are recognised - if

not

>

> then why or how are we heading for SR? Herbalists are an aspirant

group

>

> with HPC. If that is not recognition, then I don't know what is.

>

> Providing evidence of efficacy is a different matter - and we need to

be

>

> addressing that.Especially when the likes of Dr Oakley suggests that

>

> rubbing a nettle skin with your hand or a flannel is as effective as a

>

> dock leaf. The man has obviously never suffered a nettle sting as the

>

> pain lasts for days if you don't use dock.

>

> atb

>

>

[Guest guest]

Thanks Jean.

Is the GCC under HPC?

>

>

> The general chiropractic council - all threatened with major action if

> disobeyed. This has come to them via ASA

>

>

> Re: advertising and herbalists

> > To: ukherbal-list

> > Date: Thursday, 5 May, 2011, 22:12

> >

> > Hi That's precisely why those discussions/negotiations need to

> take

> >

> > place at a higher level i.e council of governing body. There is a

> >

> > difference between an individual having discussions and a professional

> >

> > body - just having a title has clout - no offence intended.

> >

> > No need to dig it out - I have it on my desktop, thanks anyway.

> >

> > Presume you refer to the bit:

> >

> > " They should not offer specific advice on, diagnosis of or treatment

> >

> > for serious or prolonged conditions unless it is conducted under the

> >

> > supervision of a doctor or other suitably qualified health

> professional

> >

> > (e.g. one subject to regulation by a statutory or recognised medical

> or

> >

> > health profession body). Accurate and responsible general information

> >

> > about such conditions may, however, be offered. " (my highlighting)

> >

> > The advice states a body/professional is either 'regulated by statute'

> >

> > or 'recognised' as being part of a professional body. As we are not

> yet

> >

> > regulated by stature, that doesn't apply. But we are recognised - if

> not

> >

> > then why or how are we heading for SR? Herbalists are an aspirant

> group

> >

> > with HPC. If that is not recognition, then I don't know what is.

> >

> > Providing evidence of efficacy is a different matter - and we need to

> be

> >

> > addressing that.Especially when the likes of Dr Oakley suggests that

> >

> > rubbing a nettle skin with your hand or a flannel is as effective as a

> >

> > dock leaf. The man has obviously never suffered a nettle sting as the

> >

> > pain lasts for days if you don't use dock.

> >

> > atb

> >

> >

[Guest guest]

The HPC states on their website that the 13 councils set up in the UK

are responsible to the HPC and that if a practitioner of chiropractic

is not registered with the GCC then you complain to the HPC who can

then " prosecute them " - so they do appear to be under the HPC. It

seems that it is only for the 13 regulated councils though - not sure

where herbal medicine fits in as we aren't " registered " .

Jean

Re: advertising and herbalists

> > To: ukherbal-list

> > Date: Thursday, 5 May, 2011, 22:12

> >

> > Hi That's precisely why those discussions/negotiations need to

> take

> >

> > place at a higher level i.e council of governing body. There is a

> >

> > difference between an individual having discussions and a

professional

> >

> > body - just having a title has clout - no offence intended.

> >

> > No need to dig it out - I have it on my desktop, thanks anyway.

> >

> > Presume you refer to the bit:

> >

> > " They should not offer specific advice on, diagnosis of or

treatment

> >

> > for serious or prolonged conditions unless it is conducted under the

> >

> > supervision of a doctor or other suitably qualified health

> professional

> >

> > (e.g. one subject to regulation by a statutory or recognised medical

> or

> >

> > health profession body). Accurate and responsible general

information

> >

> > about such conditions may, however, be offered. " (my highlighting)

> >

> > The advice states a body/professional is either 'regulated by

statute'

> >

> > or 'recognised' as being part of a professional body. As we are not

> yet

> >

> > regulated by stature, that doesn't apply. But we are recognised - if

> not

> >

> > then why or how are we heading for SR? Herbalists are an aspirant

> group

> >

> > with HPC. If that is not recognition, then I don't know what is.

> >

> > Providing evidence of efficacy is a different matter - and we need

to

> be

> >

> > addressing that.Especially when the likes of Dr Oakley suggests that

> >

> > rubbing a nettle skin with your hand or a flannel is as effective

as a

> >

> > dock leaf. The man has obviously never suffered a nettle sting as

the

> >

> > pain lasts for days if you don't use dock.

> >

> > atb

> >

> >

[Guest guest]

No but I think it will be under the HPC. So someone somewhere needs to get

recognition of the traditional recognition of primary diagnosis accepted at

an early stage. We are Medical Herbalists, aren't we ?

>

>

> The HPC states on their website that the 13 councils set up in the UK

> are responsible to the HPC and that if a practitioner of chiropractic

> is not registered with the GCC then you complain to the HPC who can

> then " prosecute them " - so they do appear to be under the HPC. It

> seems that it is only for the 13 regulated councils though - not sure

> where herbal medicine fits in as we aren't " registered " .

>

> Jean

>

>

> Re: advertising and herbalists

> > > To: ukherbal-list

> > > Date: Thursday, 5 May, 2011, 22:12

> > >

> > > Hi That's precisely why those discussions/negotiations need to

> > take

> > >

> > > place at a higher level i.e council of governing body. There is a

> > >

> > > difference between an individual having discussions and a

> professional

> > >

> > > body - just having a title has clout - no offence intended.

> > >

> > > No need to dig it out - I have it on my desktop, thanks anyway.

> > >

> > > Presume you refer to the bit:

> > >

> > > " They should not offer specific advice on, diagnosis of or

> treatment

> > >

> > > for serious or prolonged conditions unless it is conducted under the

> > >

> > > supervision of a doctor or other suitably qualified health

> > professional

> > >

> > > (e.g. one subject to regulation by a statutory or recognised medical

> > or

> > >

> > > health profession body). Accurate and responsible general

> information

> > >

> > > about such conditions may, however, be offered. " (my highlighting)

> > >

> > > The advice states a body/professional is either 'regulated by

> statute'

> > >

> > > or 'recognised' as being part of a professional body. As we are not

> > yet

> > >

> > > regulated by stature, that doesn't apply. But we are recognised - if

> > not

> > >

> > > then why or how are we heading for SR? Herbalists are an aspirant

> > group

> > >

> > > with HPC. If that is not recognition, then I don't know what is.

> > >

> > > Providing evidence of efficacy is a different matter - and we need

> to

> > be

> > >

> > > addressing that.Especially when the likes of Dr Oakley suggests that

> > >

> > > rubbing a nettle skin with your hand or a flannel is as effective

> as a

> > >

> > > dock leaf. The man has obviously never suffered a nettle sting as

> the

> > >

> > > pain lasts for days if you don't use dock.

> > >

> > > atb

> > >

> > >

[Guest guest]

Absolutely !!!!! I feel if we loose that right we loose our

professional standing.

Jean

Re: advertising and herbalists

> > > To: ukherbal-list

> > > Date: Thursday, 5 May, 2011, 22:12

> > >

> > > Hi That's precisely why those discussions/negotiations need to

> > take

> > >

> > > place at a higher level i.e council of governing body. There is a

> > >

> > > difference between an individual having discussions and a

> professional

> > >

> > > body - just having a title has clout - no offence intended.

> > >

> > > No need to dig it out - I have it on my desktop, thanks anyway.

> > >

> > > Presume you refer to the bit:

> > >

> > > " They should not offer specific advice on, diagnosis of or

> treatment

> > >

> > > for serious or prolonged conditions unless it is conducted under

the

> > >

> > > supervision of a doctor or other suitably qualified health

> > professional

> > >

> > > (e.g. one subject to regulation by a statutory or recognised

medical

> > or

> > >

> > > health profession body). Accurate and responsible general

> information

> > >

> > > about such conditions may, however, be offered. " (my highlighting)

> > >

> > > The advice states a body/professional is either 'regulated by

> statute'

> > >

> > > or 'recognised' as being part of a professional body. As we are

not

> > yet

> > >

> > > regulated by stature, that doesn't apply. But we are recognised -

if

> > not

> > >

> > > then why or how are we heading for SR? Herbalists are an aspirant

> > group

> > >

> > > with HPC. If that is not recognition, then I don't know what is.

> > >

> > > Providing evidence of efficacy is a different matter - and we need

> to

> > be

> > >

> > > addressing that.Especially when the likes of Dr Oakley suggests

that

> > >

> > > rubbing a nettle skin with your hand or a flannel is as effective

> as a

> > >

> > > dock leaf. The man has obviously never suffered a nettle sting as

> the

> > >

> > > pain lasts for days if you don't use dock.

> > >

> > > atb

> > >

> > >

[Guest guest]

Quite. But just for completeness, I have had a look at

http://www.hpc-uk.org/aboutregistration/regulators/index.asp

where the HPC says that chiropracters must be registered with the GCC, or

the HPC can prosecute but not that the HPC overses the HPC, so we need to be

careful here.

The relationship that the GCC has with ASA, for example, may not have

anything at all to do the HPC.

All best,

>

>

> Absolutely !!!!! I feel if we loose that right we loose our

> professional standing.

>

>

> Jean

>

> Re: advertising and herbalists

> > > > To: ukherbal-list

> > > > Date: Thursday, 5 May, 2011, 22:12

> > > >

> > > > Hi That's precisely why those discussions/negotiations need to

> > > take

> > > >

> > > > place at a higher level i.e council of governing body. There is a

> > > >

> > > > difference between an individual having discussions and a

> > professional

> > > >

> > > > body - just having a title has clout - no offence intended.

> > > >

> > > > No need to dig it out - I have it on my desktop, thanks anyway.

> > > >

> > > > Presume you refer to the bit:

> > > >

> > > > " They should not offer specific advice on, diagnosis of or

> > treatment

> > > >

> > > > for serious or prolonged conditions unless it is conducted under

> the

> > > >

> > > > supervision of a doctor or other suitably qualified health

> > > professional

> > > >

> > > > (e.g. one subject to regulation by a statutory or recognised

> medical

> > > or

> > > >

> > > > health profession body). Accurate and responsible general

> > information

> > > >

> > > > about such conditions may, however, be offered. " (my highlighting)

> > > >

> > > > The advice states a body/professional is either 'regulated by

> > statute'

> > > >

> > > > or 'recognised' as being part of a professional body. As we are

> not

> > > yet

> > > >

> > > > regulated by stature, that doesn't apply. But we are recognised -

> if

> > > not

> > > >

> > > > then why or how are we heading for SR? Herbalists are an aspirant

> > > group

> > > >

> > > > with HPC. If that is not recognition, then I don't know what is.

> > > >

> > > > Providing evidence of efficacy is a different matter - and we need

> > to

> > > be

> > > >

> > > > addressing that.Especially when the likes of Dr Oakley suggests

> that

> > > >

> > > > rubbing a nettle skin with your hand or a flannel is as effective

> > as a

> > > >

> > > > dock leaf. The man has obviously never suffered a nettle sting as

> > the

> > > >

> > > > pain lasts for days if you don't use dock.

> > > >

> > > > atb

> > > >

> > > >