Re: Radio 4, comfrey and deaths

[Guest guest]

Thanks Kate, I've been meaning to raise this, but my contact with it was

even more tangential than yours - I was innocently picnicking in the

woods when a colleague rang me on my mobile in order to vent her rage at the

interview. So I haven't heard any of it at all except secondhand. My

impression was that it was on the PM programme, and that the pharmacy man

said that there were 2 or 3 deaths in the UK per year from drinking comfrey

leaf tea. Which is surely nonsense.

Can anyone confirm the details - I want to send an outraged email, but like

Kate, I don't really know enough about what was actually said.

Robyn

>

>

> Dear all,

> I was listening to radio 4 at the weekend; they were talking about the new

> legislation and interviewing a pharmaceutical representative and a Chinese

> herbalist (please forgive the woolly details; I caught the interview by

> accident and it's only over the last few days that I have found myself

> thinking more about it). The pharmaceutacal representative gave comfrey as

> an example of a dangerous herb, saying that every year people die from

> taking it (he didn't specify leaf or root). I know there have been some

> isolated cases where PAs were held to blame, for instance the ones that

> Bergner discusses on his site, but I was not aware of regular, annual deaths

> that have been linked specifically to comfrey. I have been doing a search

> and so far not found much other than a suggestion that comfrey may be an

> undiagnosed cause of illness and death through liver complications in some

> countries where comfrey is regularly taken. Does anyone have any more

> information?

> I listen to radio 4 all day, so cannot remember the exact programme the

> interview was on.

> WIth thanks,

> Kate

>

>

>

--

Robyn MNIMH

[Guest guest]

Hi Robyn

I am pretty this was You and Yours I have a sticky note on the dashboard of

the car reminding me to take advantage of listen again. I only heard the

preamble..clearly no synergy in our radio listening!

Haven't got round to listening yet...

Trudy

[Guest guest]

Hi

I didn't hear this, but you can listen again to all of last weeks PM

programmes here

http://www.bbc.co.uk/iplayer/search?q=pm

hope this helps

Sally

ps, I'm really astonished at the one sided reporting i have heard so far

on the subject........

> Thanks Kate, I've been meaning to raise this, but my contact with it was

> even more tangential than yours - I was innocently picnicking in the

> woods when a colleague rang me on my mobile in order to vent her rage at the

> interview. So I haven't heard any of it at all except secondhand. My

> impression was that it was on the PM programme, and that the pharmacy man

> said that there were 2 or 3 deaths in the UK per year from drinking comfrey

> leaf tea. Which is surely nonsense.

>

> Can anyone confirm the details - I want to send an outraged email, but like

> Kate, I don't really know enough about what was actually said.

>

> Robyn

>

>

>

>>

>> Dear all,

>> I was listening to radio 4 at the weekend; they were talking about the new

>> legislation and interviewing a pharmaceutical representative and a Chinese

>> herbalist (please forgive the woolly details; I caught the interview by

>> accident and it's only over the last few days that I have found myself

>> thinking more about it). The pharmaceutacal representative gave comfrey as

>> an example of a dangerous herb, saying that every year people die from

>> taking it (he didn't specify leaf or root). I know there have been some

>> isolated cases where PAs were held to blame, for instance the ones that

>> Bergner discusses on his site, but I was not aware of regular, annual deaths

>> that have been linked specifically to comfrey. I have been doing a search

>> and so far not found much other than a suggestion that comfrey may be an

>> undiagnosed cause of illness and death through liver complications in some

>> countries where comfrey is regularly taken. Does anyone have any more

>> information?

>> I listen to radio 4 all day, so cannot remember the exact programme the

>> interview was on.

>> WIth thanks,

>> Kate

>>

>>

>>

>

>

[Guest guest]

I hope someone has heard the full thing and can reply as it seems

completely ridiculous that we are so constrained about what positive

things we can write about herbs whilst other so-called professionals can

get away with this sort of arrant nonsense.

I did my dissertation on comfrey in 2006 and was unable to find any

paper that could positively ascribe even a single death to comfrey - the

three cases that are always cited, when you read the original papers,

certainly do not do so in any scientific or rigorous manner.

a

[Guest guest]

I was thinking about this while gardening - still haven't had time to

listen, buit I wonder if they have confused deaths each year from

people mistaking foxgloves for comfrey and drinking foxglove tea with

actual comfrey poisoning?

I wouldn't be surpride, when the pharmacists first started getting

interested in herbs again and claimed to be THE experts, they rather

shot themselves in the foot by climing that Ulmus was dangerous to take

during pregnancy !!

(it is PV, but they had mixed that up with oral ingestion of the herb)

I wrote in and explained and said if you want a real expert, ask a

medicial herbalist (I wasn't one at the time....)

But I'm too tired now, I am actually so tired, I am going to lie down

for a bit.

If anybody wants to check the PM programme, try the link I posted

earlier. (They are only there for a week)

Sally Owen

> I hope someone has heard the full thing and can reply as it seems

> completely ridiculous that we are so constrained about what positive

> things we can write about herbs whilst other so-called professionals can

> get away with this sort of arrant nonsense.

>

> I did my dissertation on comfrey in 2006 and was unable to find any

> paper that could positively ascribe even a single death to comfrey - the

> three cases that are always cited, when you read the original papers,

> certainly do not do so in any scientific or rigorous manner.

>

> a

>

>

>

> ------------------------------------

>

> List Owner: Graham White, MNIMH

[Guest guest]

Yes, I wondered about the foxglove confusion aspect as that did crop up when I

was doing my search. That would be deaths due to foxglove though, not

comfrey.....

> I hope someone has heard the full thing and can reply as it seems

> completely ridiculous that we are so constrained about what positive

> things we can write about herbs whilst other so-called professionals can

> get away with this sort of arrant nonsense.

>

> I did my dissertation on comfrey in 2006 and was unable to find any

> paper that could positively ascribe even a single death to comfrey - the

> three cases that are always cited, when you read the original papers,

> certainly do not do so in any scientific or rigorous manner.

>

> a

>

>

>

> ------------------------------------

>

> List Owner: Graham White, MNIMH

[Guest guest]

oops! Sally, I know you made the exactly that same point that they may have

confused deaths caused by foxglove poisoning due to mistaken identity with

direct comfrey poisoning. I was agreeing rather than pointing out, but it didn't

look that way when typed. My apologies!

> I hope someone has heard the full thing and can reply as it seems

> completely ridiculous that we are so constrained about what positive

> things we can write about herbs whilst other so-called professionals can

> get away with this sort of arrant nonsense.

>

> I did my dissertation on comfrey in 2006 and was unable to find any

> paper that could positively ascribe even a single death to comfrey - the

> three cases that are always cited, when you read the original papers,

> certainly do not do so in any scientific or rigorous manner.

>

> a

>

>

>

> ------------------------------------

>

> List Owner: Graham White, MNIMH

[Guest guest]

Confusion between comfrey and foxglove leaf is a distinct possibility...

'An outbreak of foxglove leaf poisoning is reported in the Journal of the

Chinese Medical Association involving 9 patients who drank `comfrey' herbal tea,

which was in fact foxglove leaf tea. The leaves of both plants are similar when

the plant is not in bloom and misidentification is possible if care is not

taken. All the patients recovered following hospital treatment for cardiac

glycoside poisoning.

Lin CC et al. J Chin Med Assoc 2010 Feb;73(2):97-100

Has anyone heard what was actually said?

Anne

[Guest guest]

Hi Anne

slightly revived after nap have further investigated you can hear it here

http://www.bbc.co.uk/iplayer/episode/b010r7cb/PM_30_04_2011/

move the marker to 20.09

you'd better listen - the herbalist they have is Chinese and has not

very good English, the cynic may wonder if he was chosen for his lack of

articulacy.....

I am considering a reply, but don't have the details on the comfrey

research, could you either reply or point me in the right direction?

Sally

- you can h

>

> Confusion between comfrey and foxglove leaf is a distinct possibility...

>

> 'An outbreak of foxglove leaf poisoning is reported in the Journal of the

Chinese Medical Association involving 9 patients who drank `comfrey' herbal tea,

which was in fact foxglove leaf tea. The leaves of both plants are similar when

the plant is not in bloom and misidentification is possible if care is not

taken. All the patients recovered following hospital treatment for cardiac

glycoside poisoning.

> Lin CC et al. J Chin Med Assoc 2010 Feb;73(2):97-100

>

> Has anyone heard what was actually said?

>

> Anne

>

>

>

>

>

> ------------------------------------

>

> List Owner: Graham White, MNIMH

[Guest guest]

Hi Sally,

Thanks for locating the programme. Interestingly, there is nothing in

the MHRA's ADR (fatal or otherwise) yellow card reports database on

Symphytum (or Comfrey or knitbone). These go back to 1963.

http://www.mhra.gov.uk/Safetyinformation/Reportingsafetyproblems/Reportingsuspec\

tedadversedrugreactions/Druganalysisprints/index.htm#2

Maybe Dr Oakley meant " two or three deaths worldwide " . Or maybe not.

Cheers,

Krystyna

At 00:44 05/05/2011, you wrote:

>

>

>Hi Anne

>

>slightly revived after nap have further investigated you can hear it here

>

><http://www.bbc.co.uk/iplayer/episode/b010r7cb/PM_30_04_2011/>http://www.bbc.co\

..uk/iplayer/episode/b010r7cb/PM_30_04_2011/

>

>move the marker to 20.09

>

>you'd better listen - the herbalist they have is Chinese and has not

>very good English, the cynic may wonder if he was chosen for his lack of

>articulacy.....

>

>I am considering a reply, but don't have the details on the comfrey

>research, could you either reply or point me in the right direction?

>

>Sally

>

>

>

-

Krystyna Krzyzak

tel/fax: +44 (0)1237 451327

[Guest guest]

Thanks Krystyna

I'm afraid I've run out of time to reply as I am going to be away from

my computer for the next few days, working elsewhere, and it was last

week that it was on.

sort of hoping somebody else might find time to correct this

Sally

> Hi Sally,

>

> Thanks for locating the programme. Interestingly, there is nothing in

> the MHRA's ADR (fatal or otherwise) yellow card reports database on

> Symphytum (or Comfrey or knitbone). These go back to 1963.

>

http://www.mhra.gov.uk/Safetyinformation/Reportingsafetyproblems/Reportingsuspec\

tedadversedrugreactions/Druganalysisprints/index.htm#2

>

> Maybe Dr Oakley meant " two or three deaths worldwide " . Or maybe not.

>

> Cheers,

>

> Krystyna

>

>

> At 00:44 05/05/2011, you wrote:

>>

>> Hi Anne

>>

>> slightly revived after nap have further investigated you can hear it here

>>

>>

<http://www.bbc.co.uk/iplayer/episode/b010r7cb/PM_30_04_2011/>http://www.bbc.co.\

uk/iplayer/episode/b010r7cb/PM_30_04_2011/

>>

>> move the marker to 20.09

>>

>> you'd better listen - the herbalist they have is Chinese and has not

>> very good English, the cynic may wonder if he was chosen for his lack of

>> articulacy.....

>>

>> I am considering a reply, but don't have the details on the comfrey

>> research, could you either reply or point me in the right direction?

>>

>> Sally

>>

>>

>>

> -

> Krystyna Krzyzak

> tel/fax: +44 (0)1237 451327

>

>

>

[Guest guest]

Thanks for the link, Sally.

Wow! What a load of cobblers from this Dr Oakley!

His entry in Debretts (yes, Debretts) shows he worked as a medical doctor

between 1965 and 1972 before coming a consultant psychiatrist from 1973 to

retirement in 1996. Lots of involvement with gardening, and botanic gardens

around the world - special interest 'orchids'. Enough character assasination

though.

According to the interview....

I was very interested to hear that for 300 million years plants have been

evolving to be poisonous - presumably that is why the government is spending

such a lot of money promoting eating fruit and vegetables daily and free fruit

promotions in schools. Dark forces at work indeed.

I was also surprised that 'most [plants] are ineffective' and that 'quite a few

are toxic'. They do say that a little knowledge is a dangerous thing.....

Apparently comfrey (no mention of leaf or root) is widely used and causes liver

damage with 2 to 3 deaths each year from drinking comfrey tea. There was,

perhaps, a Freudian slip at the end of the interview when he was asked which is

the most beautiful flower coming into flower at the moment - he said 'foxglove'.

Apart from the reference in the J Chinese Med Assoc that I mentioned before, I

have only found 2 other case reports linking comfrey to liver damage. One was

from 1990 - 29 patients with hepatic veno-occlusive disease and 1 drank 'large

amounts of comfrey tea', if that can called evidence; one from 1985 - a lady

hospitalised with veno-occlusive disease who in the prior 6 months had drunk tea

from comfrey powder taking in a minimum of 85mg PAs a day. (I did a Medline

search using comfrey or symphytum plus liver or poison - so it was just a quick

and dirty search. I didn't do an AMED search which may yield more). No mention

of comfrey on the MHRA website and no access to the National Poisons Unit

database.

But some questions occur to me:

Why was no western herbalist on the programme?

Why have someone on whose communication skills in english were a problem (at

best)?

Why was no context given to the THMPD regulations?

Woeful PR for herbalists and herbal medicine in the UK

Anne

[Guest guest]

Sally wrote:

<<slightly revived after nap have further investigated you can hear it

here

http://www.bbc.co.uk/iplayer/episode/b010r7cb/PM_30_04_2011/

move the marker to 20.09

you'd better listen - the herbalist they have is Chinese and has not

very good English, the cynic may wonder if he was chosen for his lack

of

articulacy..... >>

I actually found I needed to move the marker to 24.02 - as 20.09 came in

the middle of an interview with Salmond.

The medic was Dr Henry Oakley (or Oatley not sure of spelling) the

<Garden Fellow of the Royal College of Physicians> and he did indeed say

there were 2-3 deaths every year from comfrey tea, which I agree we need

to challenge armed with the full details of paper Anne mentions.

I could try and do it but may not be till Saturday and I'm not sure who

to contact - does anyone know how to make a proper challenge?

a

[Guest guest]

Dear everyone

I called the toxicology unit and have just spoken to Debbie Shaw.

She was somewhat surprised to hear 2-3 deaths. In fact she said if that was the

case comfrey would have been banned. Interesting.

She is unaware of poisonings/deaths - but she will check with colleagues. I told

her your info Krystyna re yellow cards. Even she mentioned the word

'substantiate'.

She did say there have been one or two foxglove events - happens occasionally.

One she remembered was a man who had been eating it, but although he was ill he

didn't die.

I've forwarded the link - I had to move marker too (to about 23.59).

She doesn't like misinformation and will correct it when she's confirmed with

colleagues.

So that's a positive result - even better when it comes from Guy's Toxicology.

As an aside - I came across this Dr Oakley 2 -3 weeks ago on my google alert. he

was opening or speaking at the opening of a medicinal garden in Dublin, and he

claimed he had spoken at a herbalist's conference and said he'd said things

herbalists didn't like. I've yet to discover what herbalist's conference that

might be. Any ideas? Maybe he lives in a parellel universe - one where plants

evolve to poison us.

Debbie was useful on the evolution nonsense too - she said plants need us to eat

them to spread their seed around.

best wishes

[Guest guest]

In addition to the PM programme featuring Dr Oakley, You & Yours on 28th April

talked to Neil Patel of Royal Pharmaceutical Society. He claimed that Kava Kava

has caused 9 fatalities and a number of liver transplants. (40 minutes into the

programme). Both programmes are still available for the next couple of days for

anyone who wants to listen.

 

I've mailed NIMH about it and suggested they respond to the BBC, or at

least attempt to get a retraction.

________________________________________________________________________________

Willow Herbal Clinic

Web: www.willowherbal.co.uk

Tel: 01903 816426

________________________________

To: ukherbal-list

Sent: Thursday, 5 May, 2011 16:11:42

Subject: Re: Radio 4, comfrey and deaths

 

Sally wrote:

<<slightly revived after nap have further investigated you can hear it

here

http://www.bbc.co.uk/iplayer/episode/b010r7cb/PM_30_04_2011/

move the marker to 20.09

you'd better listen - the herbalist they have is Chinese and has not

very good English, the cynic may wonder if he was chosen for his lack

of

articulacy..... >>

I actually found I needed to move the marker to 24.02 - as 20.09 came in

the middle of an interview with Salmond.

The medic was Dr Henry Oakley (or Oatley not sure of spelling) the

<Garden Fellow of the Royal College of Physicians> and he did indeed say

there were 2-3 deaths every year from comfrey tea, which I agree we need

to challenge armed with the full details of paper Anne mentions.

I could try and do it but may not be till Saturday and I'm not sure who

to contact - does anyone know how to make a proper challenge?

a

[Guest guest]

To make a complaint to the BBC https://www.bbc.co.uk/complaints/forms/

 

I have just filed one. There are various drop boxes to choose from - I went with

'Factual error or inaccuracy'. There is then the option to expand your complaint

in your own words... 

[Guest guest]

Thanks to everyone for all your efforts in finding out more about this; I'm glad

I posted about it,

Kate

Subject: Re: Re: Radio 4, comfrey and deaths

To: ukherbal-list

Date: Thursday, 5 May, 2011, 20:14

 

To make a complaint to the BBC https://www.bbc.co.uk/complaints/forms/

 

I have just filed one. There are various drop boxes to choose from - I went

with 'Factual error or inaccuracy'. There is then the option to expand your

complaint in your own words... 

[Guest guest]

Thanks to technology, I'm listening to this in NZ & am outraged by Dr Oakley's

fallacious comments...

Not only does he refer to plants evolving over 3 million years to be poisonous,

but he actually says that there is 'NO reason for plants to have evolved to

produce medicine that is beneficial to human beings' His reference to 3 deaths a

year due to Comfrey is equally outragesous and he should be made to make a

public apology!

His reference to foxglove is quite frankly, hilarious!!

I agree, the Chinese speaker was hardly an Ambassador for HM! Where was our

speaker/representative?

I trust the public & my fellow herbies in UK are manging with this new

legislation & that it is slow in reaching our shores....

> <<slightly revived after nap have further investigated you can hear it

> here

>

> http://www.bbc.co.uk/iplayer/episode/b010r7cb/PM_30_04_2011/

>

> move the marker to 20.09

>

> you'd better listen - the herbalist they have is Chinese and has not

> very good English, the cynic may wonder if he was chosen for his lack

> of

> articulacy..... >>

>

> I actually found I needed to move the marker to 24.02 - as 20.09 came in

> the middle of an interview with Salmond.

>

> The medic was Dr Henry Oakley (or Oatley not sure of spelling) the

> <Garden Fellow of the Royal College of Physicians> and he did indeed say

> there were 2-3 deaths every year from comfrey tea, which I agree we need

> to challenge armed with the full details of paper Anne mentions.

>

> I could try and do it but may not be till Saturday and I'm not sure who

> to contact - does anyone know how to make a proper challenge?

>

> a

>

[Guest guest]

Thanks for link Ingrid - I have now also filed a complaint and asked for

retraction.

a