Re: Stachybotrys serology testing & increasing causes of mold growth

[Guest guest]

>

>

> http://www.dhs.ca.gov/ps/deodc/ehib/EHIB2/topics/Serologyf2.htm

>

>

>

> > We know that the insurance industry's well paid " experts " are busy

> running

> > around to the CDC, the EPA, NIOSH etc. trying to get the real mold

> experts

> > thrown off of committees and trying to squash serious research or

> > information from getting out into the public's hands so people

> realize how

> > extensive the threat is and call for protections. This is what

> they do -

> > they are predictable. What I can't understand is why governmental

> > employees - like CDC employees (we all know their names) and even

> NIOSH

> > employees - like scientists Page and Trout who jumped all over Dr.

> Hodgson's

> > study nitpicking it to death, rather than supporting him publicly

> and

> > calling for more research into the human effects of toxic mold

> exposure -

> > are not out in the forefront saying " hey, this is a problem and we

> need more

> > money to investigate. " We know these folks aren't stupid so why

> aren't they

> > coming forward. Do they all plan to work for private industry,

> taking

> > advantage of the revolving door between regulation and those that

> are

> > regulated? Are they being paid off or threatened to keep quiet or

> their

> > careers will suffer.

> >

> > Also, people need to ask the question, " where did this mold come

> from all of

> > a sudden and why is it so toxic? " It isn't enough to say that we

> are

> > building tighter building and mechanical ventilation is

new...there

> is more

> > to it than that. From around the time of Incline Village until

> today, we

> > have seen an explosive growth of toxic molds. Sure, the weather

> patterns

> > over the past decade have been influenced by la nino and some

> places are

> > wetter than normal, but that still doesn't explain it. What don't

> we know

> > and why don't we know it.

> >

> > Barbara

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I'm no expert here-- but here are a few thoughts.

Certainly air-tight buildings/dwellings are part of the problem, but

can't explain all of it.

As an atmospheric scientist-- and former air quality industry

specialist (outdoor air quality), I wonder if the weather doesn't have

more to do with it then we suspect. My first thought was that

although the noted El Nino/La Nina southern oscillation cycles that

have such an impact on North America, that to a great extent this was

just shifting where the rains and flooding occurred to a great extent.

While there is some truth to this, another point to consider is that

suddently you have people having to deal with incredible downpours and

flooding that aren't use to it-- in communities that aren't use to it.

The significance of this is that these individuals and communities

aren't as knowledgable regarding the threats that these new weather

patterns, and associated changes in rainfall, flooding,

groundwater-runoff, and water-table elevations pose, it would be

logical to conclude that they will be more signficantly impacted by

them. In many cases this includes a lot of people that, as our

countries population has grown, are now living in locations less than

ideal for the minimization of water-exposure risks.

Our focus in the last few decades on outdoor air quality may have been

at the expense of indoor air quality. While we learned of the

alarming things happening to our atmosphere, we may have taken our

attention off our homes beginning in the sixties, and through the

eighties... when in fact we needed to give due attention to both

environments.

Another significant factor, that is affecting many different aspects

of our lives-- is the role that the information age plays. Twenty

years ago, most of these incidents would have gone largely

unnoticed... first because the news was much less likely to become

public-- and secondly, because the problem wasn't understood-- so

people would either not come forward to admit they were having the

extent of problems they were faced with-- or for those that did, the

medical community would often turn a deaf ear or dismiss their

symptoms out of hand. ALL of that has changed in today's world. The

media parade of these situations across our TV screen is helping force

the medical / other fields to take the problem even more seriously, as

more money is being expended on research and studies.

What factors might remain? Purely speculative thoughts follow...

I doubt that mold is having an explosive growth across the face of the

earth-- assisted by the decline of competing bacteria. Perhaps the

types of buildings materials being used in modern construction, along

with changes to the way homes/buildings are constructed, are also

factors. Perhaps we have witnessed some evolutionary changes in mold

species behavior-- and their habitat requirements that are making the

materials we use even more subject to growth. Perhaps changes over

the last few decades in the way hvac systems are layed out and

function (beyond operating in tighter buildings), the nature of our

homes-- becoming less spacious at we become more crowded-- yet with

more clutter and content in our homes likely to be subject to

supporting growth, and well as helping hide growth. There are likely

more bathrooms / sinks / plumbing in homes/buildings today then a few

decades ago, and with more wiring, cabling and phones-- inner-wall

cavities may be more at risk with greater air flow between adjoining

cavities that could be supporting growth-- while allowing increased

humidity to more easily spread between adjacent cavities. Today's

plumbing, pipes and fixtures, perhaps aren't built as well-- or are

built in someways more subject to failures.

Getting back to the idea about weather changes-- construction would be

greatly affected. What contractors in one are of the country, along

with municipal regulatory agencies, are use to requiring in a home to

make it weather-proof so-to-speak, is now being challenged by the one

and two-year patterns shifts resulting from El Nino / La Nina (which

have been going on for hundreds of years-- but seem to have shifted

more frequently the last few decades). Also, the growth in our

countries population is certainly bringing on new building techniques

to support faster construction-- which may themselves be contribuing.

WELL-- we could speculate all day-- but there's still so much we don't

know, so much left to learn! Others likely have some good ideas

here-- and there's likely some studies that may have been done on the

subject to which I'm not familiar.

--- In a Stachy Situation

construction is

, aren't fully understood by those affected for the implications that

the accompanying water exposure and fungal growth

[Guest guest]

Dear Moldy,

I am most interested in all types of abstractions and theories simply

because I am unendingly curious. However, we have so many hard facts now

that can no longer be hidden because of the information age that we can

and must begin to work with the KNOWN factors under our control. The

information age simply permits rapid and widescale distribution of

information but does not INVENT that information. It has been known for

decades what the effects of pesticides, petroleum products, nuclear

waste, mercury, lead, etc.

What was being counted on by those who DO know is that we would not

learn of it. They are still counting on doctors not to be able to

diagnose it - did you know it is illegal to have a fat tissue biopsy in

New York State for analysis of many toxic products? That only a couple

of labs are licensed to test blood for pesticides and even then, not all

of the ones in common use? That the EPA says that perhaps 10% of

medical schools teach their students about toxicity reactions? The ones

with financial interests to protect then hire professionals to lobby

for legislation to further prevent dissemination of this information and

reliable independent testing of products already marketed. I am sure

you are aware of the law under consideration now to prevent any marketed

product from being withdrawn based upon consumer reports of damage.

Only sound science is permitted and the law limits who practices sound

science....you get the point.

Knowledge must be free - if consumers know what they are buying, let the

free marketplace decide if need be but it can't be free without truth in

labeling: This carpet will outgass formaldehyde at such and such a rate

over som many months; this apple has been sprayed with chemical x;

chemical x is composed of abc ingredients; this corn is genetically

modified.

There is a reason why health care costs are so high - everyone is sick

because of the proliferation of toxins which either make us ill directly

or make us more vulnerable to other illnesses. I am not suggesting we

move back to the cave and have the utmost respect for capitalism and

industrial ingenuity. But asking people to breathe poison, eat poison

and wear it as well because each individual particle has been shown not

to kill anyone by itself is not satisfactory.

I agree that if people build their homes on a flood plain, they better

be prepared for wading knee deep at some point and not blame anyone but

themselves for having moldy carpeting. But construction continues using

the same strategies in all areas as you said most eloquently. We cannot

manupulate climate just now but can keep from using toxic insulation in

cold area to make heating cheaper for the unwary who don't know they

will make up the costs at the doctor's office.

Proper research before marketing will increase the price of goods - but

we are spending it anyway in illness and the lost productivity of

persons such as ourselves who have all suffered from the laws of

expediency and profit.

End of rant with my apologies. I am having a bad day because my landlord

spilled gas inside the garage below my apartment and does not understand

why I am sick - after all it is the same gas that is in my car.....what

could be the harm?

Barbara

http://community.webtv.net/Raisyl/PHOENIXRISING

[Guest guest]

Blank " Moldy " raised some interesting issues when he wrote:

" I'm no expert here-- but here are a few thoughts.

Certainly air-tight buildings/dwellings are part of the problem, but

can't explain all of it. "

Absolutely, the air tight, sealed buildings are just a part of the problem.

When I grew up in our old drafty home, the windows were single paned, double

hung wooden sash construction with plain old glass that did little to keep

out fresh air. Our home did not have carpet, was wooden construction,

plaster and lathe on a solid slab. Twice a year, my father led the cleaning

charge (since my mother was a polio victim and could not get around very

well and we had no cleaning person) We held a weekend long cleaning

marathon. Armed with buckets, bleach and Bon Ami cleanser, we scoured,

scrubbed and did " down and dirty " deep cleaning. Mold and dirt were signs,

my father said, of " no class/low class trashy folks who never learned

better " and so there wasn't a spot to be found anywhere when we finished.

Dust and dirt were scrubbed off the screens and our house sparkled. Every

couple of years, my dad would decide it was time to paint the inside again.

He took real pride in keeping our home in great repair and, like a lot of

men during that time, had the know-how to do a lot of the maintenance

repairs himself and enjoyed doing so. We never had a roof leak, ever and

even the sealant around the tubs and showers was removed and replaced when

it began to wear thin and look dingy.

All of our furniture was real wood, no particleboard in sight. Some of it

was old, but it didn't give off odors and we used old 's soap to keep

it clean. I don't recall any glued products or plastic until I was in high

school and my parents bought one of those new " melsomething " tables - you

know, those ugly things with metal legs and plastic covered seats. We

cleaned with water, vinegar, baking soda and some bleach in the bathrooms,

wearing big thick plastic gloves. Outside we used a little bit of Tide

detergent as well to mix in the high pressure sprayer to clean off the brick

and grout.

Our doors and windows stayed open most of the time since I grew up and still

live in Tallahassee, Florida. We used screen doors to keep out the flies

and occasional woodland critters. I didn't know ONE person that had asthma,

until, as I have written before, my aunt and uncle bought a " mobile home " to

live in temporarily while they built their home on the lake. Soon after

moving in, their daughter developed asthma but they had no idea at the time

that it was caused by all the products and man-made materials and

off-gassing from the mobile home. When they finally built their home and

moved in 4 years later, my cousin was left with permanently scarred lungs

and a lifelong disability.

" Moldy " wrote:

As an atmospheric scientist-- and former air quality industry specialist

(outdoor air quality), I wonder if the weather doesn't have

more to do with it then we suspect. My first thought was that although the

noted El Nino/La Nina southern oscillation cycles that

have such an impact on North America, that to a great extent this was just

shifting where the rains and flooding occurred to a great extent.

While there is some truth to this, another point to consider is that

suddenly you have people having to deal with incredible downpours and

flooding that aren't use to it-- in communities that aren't use to it. The

significance of this is that these individuals and communities

aren't as knowledgeable regarding the threats that these new weather

patterns, and associated changes in rainfall, flooding,

groundwater-runoff, and water-table elevations pose, it would be logical to

conclude that they will be more significantly impacted by

them. In many cases this includes a lot of people that, as our countries

population has grown, are now living in locations less than

ideal for the minimization of water-exposure risks.

I agree:

I think the decade long rainy weather and the effects of el Nino/la Nina may

well have affected the spread of mold and have said so previously, but I

have never scientifically tested this hypothesis by checking out long-term

differences in relative humidity and rainfall in areas that are having

extreme problems. According to the homeowner organizations, they believe

that the combination of tighter buildings, combined with shoddy construction

and home builders who evade standards, cut corners and get away with murder,

especially when building tract housing. If you read about the problems on

their websites, you will hear about homes built with no moisture barriers,

barriers on the wrong side, cracks in the foundations, chronic leaking roof,

pipes and products that should be vented that aren't or are vented

incorrectly. Sandy or another homeowner representative in our group can

better tell you than I the types of problems many homeowners have had to

face that were virtually unheard of 40 years ago. I have posted numerous

accounts of moldy substandard and shoddy housing on this list, but the

problems have gotten worse over the last decade as builders in high density

areas build on less than desirable lots that have been left over because

they weren't really suited for homes. More importantly, I believe is the

loss of homeowner rights to sue the builder and being forced to mediate

problems. This keeps the builders name clean and his name out of the

newspaper (and the court files) so he can go right on building substandard

products, using subcontractors who do not follow building plans, building

inspectors who are untrained, understaffed and sometimes falsify documents

and in general, turning out mass produced garbage with a punch list longer

than the sales contract that may never get taken care of. In many cases

(the internet is FULL of their stories) these builders jerk the homeowners

around and make it almost impossible for them to get value for their money.

Unless they pay for an independent and costly inspection out of their own

pocket and hire an attorney, the enforcement climate has not supported their

claims. This is an issue that is at the core of HOBB, HADD and the other

homeowner advocacy groups that are growing like wildfire and lobbying state

and federal agencies to point out abuses and inequities that need to be

changed.

" Moldy " wrote:

Our focus in the last few decades on outdoor air quality may have been at

the expense of indoor air quality. While we learned of the

alarming things happening to our atmosphere, we may have taken our attention

off our homes beginning in the sixties, and through the

eighties... when in fact we needed to give due attention to both

environments. "

We do indeed need to pay attention to both environments, but what happened

is that when the issue of an indoor air quality standard arose, I think 5 or

6 years or more ago, the chamber of commerce and industry rose up and

pounded it back down again with their horror tales of the costs of changing

the way they do business. OSHA drafted an initial IAQ standard but it was

never implemented. As you know, their standards are designed for industry

and, along with NIOSH they are not designed for offices, nor do they engage

in a lot of the types of research that is needed now as businesses add

mechanical products like computers, printers and other products that emit

fumes to existing structures not designed to expel those fumes. If anyone

on this list knows the whole story about how the IAQ standard got swatted

down - I would appreciate your taking time to write it out and post it here

or direct us to a website that explains what happened. Support is growing

stronger for a IAQ standard and as usual, the foes of change will be out in

full force waving their checkbooks around, squealing like stuck pigs about

how they will have to close their businesses down and cripple the economy

and fighting it tooth and nail.

" Moldy " also said:

" I doubt that mold is having an explosive growth across the face of the

earth-- assisted by the decline of competing bacteria. Perhaps the types

of buildings materials being used in modern construction, along with changes

to the way homes/buildings are constructed, are also factors. Perhaps we

have witnessed some evolutionary changes in mold species behavior-- and

their habitat requirements that are making the materials we use even more

subject to growth. Perhaps changes over the last few decades in the way

HVAC systems are laid out and function (beyond operating in tighter

buildings), the nature of our homes-- becoming less spacious at we become

more crowded-- yet with more clutter and content in our homes likely to be

subject to supporting growth, and well as helping hide growth. "

I wish we knew, " Moldy " but

I am not a microbiologist nor do I know much about mycology outside what we

have learned on this list, but I do know that in my general reading, I have

seen numerous stories about fungus in the oceans, fungus causing illness and

death of certain species and fungus everywhere you look. Some

environmentalists are writing that this explosive fungal growth is a

function of a degraded environment that is only going to get worse. Maybe

Dr. Chin Yang could tell us more about this or the members of the labs who

are analyzing the mold species for investigators who have seen these changes

firsthand.

You are right though, we could speculate all day about the increasing

problem of mold inside buildings, and, if anything, the growing body of

research clearly shows there is a great deal we don't know and which needs

to be investigated. All the more reason, I think to question the wall of

silence at the CDC and their campaign of disinformation. There is the issue

of what really happened at Incline Village, was it toxic mold that made all

those people sick and keep them sick today and if it was, how did it get

there. There is the issue of why members of our government are actively

working to suppress information - even refusing to talk with people who call

or write them or answer questions posed by reporters, glossing over all the

accounts of health effects. They did this with the issue of MCS and they

are doing this with toxic mold, causing many of us to have to end run them,

work around them and network as individuals without their full support and

backing. Like a cart with two horses pulling in opposite directions, this

is not going to work and they need to change. We need research to find out

why some of us are so severely impacted while others aren't. And for pete's

sake, we need to start with day care centers and schools because we are

sickening and permanently crippling our children - our future. Look at the

astronomical asthma rates!!

Barbara

[Guest guest]

>

> Our focus in the last few decades on outdoor air quality may have

been at

> the expense of indoor air quality. While we learned of the

> alarming things happening to our atmosphere, we may have taken our

attention

> off our homes beginning in the sixties, and through the

> eighties... when in fact we needed to give due attention to both

> environments. "

>

>

> We do indeed need to pay attention to both environments, but what

happened

> is that when the issue of an indoor air quality standard arose, I

think 5 or

> 6 years or more ago, the chamber of commerce and industry rose up

and

> pounded it back down again with their horror tales of the costs of

changing

> the way they do business. OSHA drafted an initial IAQ standard but

it was

> never implemented. As you know, their standards are designed for

industry

> and, along with NIOSH they are not designed for offices, nor do they

engage

> in a lot of the types of research that is needed now as businesses

add

> mechanical products like computers, printers and other products that

emit

> fumes to existing structures not designed to expel those fumes. If

anyone

> on this list knows the whole story about how the IAQ standard got

swatted

> down - I would appreciate your taking time to write it out and post

it here

> or direct us to a website that explains what happened. Support is

growing

> stronger for a IAQ standard and as usual, the foes of change will be

out in

> full force waving their checkbooks around, squealing like stuck pigs

about

> how they will have to close their businesses down and cripple the

economy

> and fighting it tooth and nail.

>

>

>

> " Moldy " also said:

>

> " I doubt that mold is having an explosive growth across the face of

the

> earth-- assisted by the decline of competing bacteria. Perhaps the

types

> of buildings materials being used in modern construction, along with

changes

> to the way homes/buildings are constructed, are also factors.

Perhaps we

> have witnessed some evolutionary changes in mold species behavior--

and

> their habitat requirements that are making the materials we use even

more

> subject to growth. Perhaps changes over the last few decades in

the way

> HVAC systems are laid out and function (beyond operating in tighter

> buildings), the nature of our homes-- becoming less spacious at we

become

> more crowded-- yet with more clutter and content in our homes likely

to be

> subject to supporting growth, and well as helping hide growth. "

>

>

> I wish we knew, " Moldy " but

> I am not a microbiologist nor do I know much about mycology outside

what we

> have learned on this list, but I do know that in my general reading,

I have

> seen numerous stories about fungus in the oceans, fungus causing

illness and

> death of certain species and fungus everywhere you look. Some

> environmentalists are writing that this explosive fungal growth is a

> function of a degraded environment that is only going to get worse.

Maybe

> Dr. Chin Yang could tell us more about this or the members of the

labs who

> are analyzing the mold species for investigators who have seen these

changes

> firsthand.

>

> You are right though, we could speculate all day about the

increasing

> problem of mold inside buildings, and, if anything, the growing body

of

> research clearly shows there is a great deal we don't know and which

needs

> to be investigated. All the more reason, I think to question the

wall of

> silence at the CDC and their campaign of disinformation. There is

the issue

> of what really happened at Incline Village, was it toxic mold that

made all

> those people sick and keep them sick today and if it was, how did it

get

> there. There is the issue of why members of our government are

actively

> working to suppress information - even refusing to talk with people

who call

> or write them or answer questions posed by reporters, glossing over

all the

> accounts of health effects. They did this with the issue of MCS and

they

> are doing this with toxic mold, causing many of us to have to end

run them,

> work around them and network as individuals without their full

support and

> backing. Like a cart with two horses pulling in opposite

directions, this

> is not going to work and they need to change. We need research to

find out

> why some of us are so severely impacted while others aren't. And

for pete's

> sake, we need to start with day care centers and schools because we

are

> sickening and permanently crippling our children - our future. Look

at the

> astronomical asthma rates!!

>

> Barbara

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To:

7155 Re: Stachybotrys serology testing & increasing ca bherk

(Barbara)

7154 Re: Stachybotrys serology testing & increasing ca Raisyl@w...

(Barbara)

Excuse my casual speculation from an ignorant perspective-- I did

not adequately qualify my thoughts. I was continuing the thread--

which I found of great interest-- by thinking aloud (electronically)

about the factors involved.

I read your thoughts and facts with great interest, and appreciate the

education. You both cite good points-- for which I don't have any

substanitive disagreement. I was justly " barbed " by your sharp

points.

----- -----

-- In a Stachy Situation