Re: My Saliva Test, am I HYPO thyroid? Opinions please.--Saw my doctor

February 6, 2008

Thanks Val,

I just got back from my morning walk and I cannot believe how much

better I was able to tolerate it today (third Armour day). I do not

feel beat up and exhausted like I have been feeling after my walk. I

was able to tolerate the cold much better. I am thinking that my

exercise intolerance problem was worsened by the cold. In addition, I

can tell that my shoulder is finally getting better after seven

months. I am just so happy that maybe I have found relief for my issues.

For your DD it looks like her starting dose is similar to what my

doctor wants for me. Do you think that since I have many hypo

symptoms if it would be OK to take a little more than 1/4 grain?

Somewhere between 1/4 grain and 1/2 grain? I am concerned about the

T4 effects later on though. I really like feeling better now but I do

not want to feel better now and have hyperthyroid symptoms later.

Yesterday evening I got a bad migraine-like head ache after having a

fairly good day (took 1/2 grain of Armour split throughout the day).

I guess the headache spooked me a little bit because I rarely get

headaches anymore. Three Advil and some SL estradiol relieved the

headache after a couple of hours. I actually felt like I was getting

the flu with some chest and throat irritation and slight cough. I had

been out in town shopping (plus ate stuff not on my diet) and maybe I

was exposed to some irritant/allergen. I really expected to wake up

today sick with a sore throat but I feel good instead. I have no idea

if the headache is related to my Armour dose or not but like I said, I

am a little spooked.

My low cortisol symptoms at night were adrenalin surges or shots.

With normal house noise or something slightly startling on TV, I would

get an inappropriate shot of adrenalin. This only happens if I take

adrenal extract or HC cream earlier in the day. A small dose of HC

cream (2.5 mg) will relief the symptoms. This adrenalin shot thing

was making it difficult for me to sleep at night because I would get

an adrenalin shot every time I heard my husband snore. Now that I am

not taking adrenal extract or HC cream, I am not having the issue with

adrenalin shots at night. Val on the adrenal board said that the

cortisone in the cream and adrenal extract was likely suppressing my

cortisone release later in the day because of the negative feedback

loop.

Kathy

February 6, 2008

Have you read this article? http://www.tuberose.com/Adrenal_Glands.html

1/2 grain of Armour isn't a large dose and you will " feel " the T3 in

Armour over the T4...T4 is simply a storage hormone that does nothing

other than be converted into T3...you won't " feel " anything from T4 at

all.

Look at your saliva cortisol results. Where you are low seems to be the

best time to supplement with cortisol (Cortef). Night time your cortisol

should be low, tho. According to Jefferies (Safe Uses of Cortisol), what

cortisol you supplement with, the adrenals glands will back off from

making. For example, if you supplement with 20mg cortisol, that's 20mg the

adrenals don't have to make. Clear as mud? But take into consideration

what Val on the adrenals group has to say, as she does know her stuff.

Sam

=====

> Hi Sam,

>

> Thanks for the information. I have read all those pages multiple

> times. As far as the adrenal support, I do not know what adrenal

> support to take. What specifically do you mean that I should be on

> adrenal support? I do drink sea salted water once or twice a day and

> take extra B5 and about 4000 mg of C/day. I took adrenal extract for

> about a year and I think it helped me feel better but gave me low

> cortisol symptoms at night. I have also been taking my licorice.

> Before I took my saliva tests I tried HC cream with mixed results. I

> cannot take the recommended starting HC dose in the morning because it

> makes me feel awful. Val on the Adrenal group said that she thought my

> adrenal issues would resolve if I started Armour. Please point me in

> the right direction regarding adrenal support.

>

> I don't think my doctor intends for me to react poorly to the Armour.

> He is really a nice, kind person and I think he really wants me to

> feel better. I feel fortunate that at least he is willing to work

> with me on this. It may be that like you said he does not know much

> about Armour. My compounding pharmacist told me that my doctor gives

> Armour frequently to his patients though. So maybe he is just not

> familiar with the way we like Armour to be prescribed. We did not

> talk about adrenal symptoms during the visit; I do not even know if he

> knows about adrenal issues. I think the reason why he wants me to

> start low is because he thinks that if I have a thyroid issue it is

> very mild and he does not want to overdose me. During the appointment

> he spent more time reviewing all of my previous thyroid blood work

> rather than the saliva tests. He does not use saliva testing in his

> practice so I think he is not familiar with saliva results.

>

> So what I am reading from your post is that there is no reason that

> you can think of to just take ¼ grain of Armour for my starting dose

> and that I should be safe to continue with ½ grain/day—correct? Then

> in 2 weeks I should be able to increase?

>

> I read that it takes several weeks for the T-4 to show it's effects

> after starting Armour. Is that correct? I am just a little leery

> about the delayed effect thing with the T-4. I am wondering if part

> of my doctor wanting me to go slow is because of the T-4 delay?

>

> Thanks for your help.

>

> Kathy

>

>> >

>> > Saliva:

>> >> Collection Date 1/13/08, Received 1/15/08, Completed 1/18/08

>> >>

>> >> 47 year old Female (this is wrong I am 46)

>> >>

>> >> Cortisol:

>> >> 7-8 am 20, (normal 13-24 nM)

>> >> 11-Noon 7 (normal 5-10 nM)

>> >> 4-5 pm 8 (normal 3-8 nM)

>> >> 11-midnight 5 (elevated 1-4 nM)

>> >>

>> >> DHEA 4 (normal 3-10 ng/ml)

>> >>

>> >> Maladapted Phase II, Midnight value is elevated suggesting a lack of

>> >> sensitivity to suppression at the pituitary-hypothalamic-axis. This

>> >> condition is usually associated with a tendency to endogenous

>> >> depression and REM sleep disruptions. Phosphorylated serine

>> >> derivatives are reported to help optimize HPA responsiveness.

>> >>

>> >> FTSH 68 (normal 2-85 nIU/ml)

>> >> fT4 0.20 (normal 0.17-0.42 ng/dl)

>> >> fT3 (0.34 normal 0.28-1.10 pg/ml)

>> >> TPO negative (normal negative)

>> >>

>> >> E2 Estradiol > 99 high (HRT target 5-13 pg/ml) (This cannot be

>> >> correct, I took 1.25 grams of oestrogel the day of the test and

> do not

>> >> have any excess estrogen symptoms.)

>> >> P1 Progesterone 254 within range (luteal 65-500) (This seems right, I

>> >> had not taken any progesterone, this was about day 20 of my cycle).

>> >> TTF Free Testosterone 27 Elevated (normal 8-20 pg/ml) (This cannot be

>> >> correct, I took less than 2 mg of testosterone lotion the day of the

>> >> test, I had no excess T symptoms).

>> >>

>> >> I was off all adrenal support for 16 days before the test.

>> >>

>> >> Thanks for any help.

>> >>

>> >> Kathy

>> >>

>> >

>>

>

February 6, 2008

Val, dosing by symptoms is the safest way to do Armour.

Sam

=====

> Kathy, I do not believe in beginning Armour at anything more than a

> low dose. My DD just started on 1/4 grain Armour. I told her to hold

> it there for 6 - 8 weeks before increasing. It can take anywhere from

> 6 weeks to three months for the full effect of the T4 to be felt. She

> has now increased to 1/2 grain. Even on 1/4 grain, she started

> feeling a little better (even though she didn't feel poorly on no

> thyroid med). I wanted her to start on some in an attempt to prevent

> full-blown hypo from her gradually increasing antibodies.

>

> In fact, I believe that many Armour failures are a result of trying to

> increase too fast.

>

> What do you mean by " low cortisol symptoms at night " ?

>

> Kathy wrote:

>

> I don't think my doctor intends for me to react poorly to the Armour.

>

> So what I am reading from your post is that there is no reason that

> you can think of to just take & frac14; grain of Armour for my starting

> dose

> and that I should be safe to continue with & frac12;

> grain/day & #8212;correct? Then

> in 2 weeks I should be able to increase?

>

> I read that it takes several weeks for the T-4 to show it's effects

> after starting Armour. Is that correct? I am just a little leery

> about the delayed effect thing with the T-4. I am wondering if part

> of my doctor wanting me to go slow is because of the T-4 delay?

>

> Thanks for your help.

>

> Kathy

>

> >

> > Starting on 1/4 grain is probably meant to make you react poorly to

>

February 6, 2008

Sam,

I understand dose by symptoms with a short acting hormone like

oestrogel. I apply oestrogel in the morning, I can feel the effects

right away, in 24 hours most of it is probably gone and I can take

another dose, if during the day I need more I can take more and not

worry about an overdose because it goes in and out fairly quickly,

even if I overdose I can correct for it tomorrow.

With Armour on the other hand, there is the short acting T3 that I

know is making me feel better right away. But what about the T4 that

I may not even feel for several weeks? How can you dose by symptoms

when one of the hormones affects you weeks later? If I take enough

Armour so that the T3 makes me feel well today, how do I know that as

the T4 builds up that I will not become hyper-thyroid? I do not

understand the physiology well and I have not found any articles on

the T3, T4 short acting/long acting thing.

Thanks :-)

Kathy

> > >

> > > Starting on 1/4 grain is probably meant to make you react poorly to

> >

>

February 6, 2008

Kahty, you don't " feel " the T4. T4 does absolutely nothing in the body

except sit around and wait until it gets turned in to T3. T4 is merely a

" storage " hormone. Here are a few articles that talk about T3 and T4 " in

general " , but the better info can be obtained from the NTH group:

http://www.altsupportthyroid.org/t3.php

http://www.healthrecipes.com/armour_thyroid.htm

The NTH group:

http://health.groups.yahoo.com/group/naturalthyroidhormones

Symptoms of being hypErthyroid are quite dramatic and can include very

rapid heart rate (over 100), excessive sweating and uncontrollable

shaking, diarrhea, rapid and excessive weight loss, hair loss, etc.

Symptoms of overdose are much less dramatic and can include rapid heart

rate, excessive sweating, and shaking. It's important not to confuse over

dose symptosm with symptoms of weak adrenals, tho. Symptoms of weak

adrenals can include " air hunger " (needing to gulp air), hard pounding

heart (not necessarily rapid), and all while still feeling hypO.

The way to avoid feeling hypEr is to increase ONLY when hypO symptoms

return, so you won't be overdosing. Listen to your body and it will tell

you when it needs more - you'll start to feel like crap again. Trust me,

I've dosed Armour by symptoms since 2006. I " started " at 2 grains and am

now on 11+ grains - I am without a thyroid gland.

Sam

=====

> Sam,

>

> I understand dose by symptoms with a short acting hormone like

> oestrogel. I apply oestrogel in the morning, I can feel the effects

> right away, in 24 hours most of it is probably gone and I can take

> another dose, if during the day I need more I can take more and not

> worry about an overdose because it goes in and out fairly quickly,

> even if I overdose I can correct for it tomorrow.

>

> With Armour on the other hand, there is the short acting T3 that I

> know is making me feel better right away. But what about the T4 that

> I may not even feel for several weeks? How can you dose by symptoms

> when one of the hormones affects you weeks later? If I take enough

> Armour so that the T3 makes me feel well today, how do I know that as

> the T4 builds up that I will not become hyper-thyroid? I do not

> understand the physiology well and I have not found any articles on

> the T3, T4 short acting/long acting thing.

>

> Thanks :-)

>

> Kathy

>

>> > >

>> > > Starting on 1/4 grain is probably meant to make you react poorly to

>> >

>>

>

February 6, 2008

I totally agree, but you don't know what symptoms are there until up to

six weeks after you start a given dose.

Val

k9gang@... wrote:

Val, dosing by symptoms is the safest way to do Armour.

February 6, 2008

HypO symptoms can come back in as little as a week and as long as a few

months. It depends on the individual, how ill they were to begin with, and

a variety of other things.

I run the Yahoo Thyroidless group, and seriously I have lost count as to

how many times I am privately emailed this near exact sentence:

" I started Armour a week ago and I'm getting hypO

symptoms again! Should I go back on synthroid? "

The usual difference is the amount of time - anywhere from a week to a

month or more, and my answer is always the same: 'dose by symptoms'.

(it's creepy that it's always synthroid they mention)

Sam

=====

> I totally agree, but you don't know what symptoms are there until up

> to six weeks after you start a given dose.

>

> Val

>

> k9gang@... wrote:

> Val, dosing by symptoms is the safest way to do Armour.

February 6, 2008

Kathy, I doubt it matters significantly whether you take 1/4 or 1/2.

If 1/2 makes you feel better, just be aware of any symptoms of too much

- disturbed sleep, nervousness, etc. Of course, if the headaches

continue, that should tell you something as well. My daughter had no

hypo symptoms that she recognized. The biggest difference she is

noticing is less anger and more ability to concentrate. Her husband

noticed before she did. She is an attorney and too often found herself

at the end of the day with nothing accomplished.

I don't know what to think about the description of your "adrenal

rushes." I'm experiencing that nearly all the time. I call mine

"episodes." They begin every time I try to take Armour and take many

months to resolve. That might be an indication of adrenal

fatigue/exhaustion, but my cortisol is quite normal (blood, urine,

saliva). My aldosterone is elevated. I think the T3 in Armour further

elevates aldosterone but have only been able to find animal studies

about that being the case. I know that anxiety is common in people

with primary aldosteronism.

Val

Kathy wrote:

Thanks Val,

Do you think that since I have many hypo