Guest guest Posted March 8, 2011 Report Share Posted March 8, 2011 Bu the point is SR- and this is what we are specifically discussing at the moment- will do nothing to change this. It will not prevent those individuals who wish to charge exorbitant prices. It will not change the fact that there are those in the world who will exploit others. And it will not change the attitude of the sensationalist sections of the press who delight in highlighting the sort of practices you highlight. Best regards, Tim. From: anna.newton@... Sent: Tuesday, March 08, 2011 1:53 PM To: ukherbal-list Subject: Re: Re: Regulation Yes, Henrietta, I am outraged that somebody with no qualifications charges a lot and sells dodgy herbal supplements for vast amount of money. I am outraged that unsuspecting patients are fooled by such individuals. And I am outraged that we are lumped together with such individuals by press. Presumably you are happy with all that.Also, I never said that the charges reflect the competence. I said that I have come across quacks and that some charged a lot of money - that was all. I never said they were herbalists, although they prescribed herbs. Cheers > We seem to be at cross purposes here! You referred, in your first posted > message below, posted under the heading of regulation, to a herbalist who > was charging in your view excessive > fees. Your latest message now refers to poorly trained practitoners. These > are two distinctly separate matters. So my original questions remain > unanswered; that is, how will SR make any impact on the amount a herbalist > charges for services and herbs? If you're simply outraged that somebody manages to charge 150 whatnots a visit on a rather minimal education, where you paid hard cash for a solid standing -- well, _that_ has nothing to do with practitioner quality either, that's pure marketing. Make a few telly series, be charming enough, and you can charge the same ... .... not that I know any herbalists who'd _want_ to, but shrug. H. -- Henriette Kress, AHG Helsinki, Finland Henriette's herbal homepage: http://www.henriettesherbal.com Uusi kirja: http://www.henriettesherbal.com/fi/kayt-laak.html Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 8, 2011 Report Share Posted March 8, 2011 Dear Tim,I shall requote myself to make things clear:I said: " in the UK there are many practitioners who dabble with herbal medicine: I have come across about 6 in my area during the last 5 years. Their prescribing was not very effective (none had any training in herbal medicine...) " I do not consider people who dabble with herbal medicine (without any training) to be herbalists and I never said they were herbalists, I consistently referred to poorly trained practitioners who prescribed herbs. To answer your question on SR and its impact on our charges: I don't think it will have any impact because in the end we provide a private service and people are prepared to pay up to a point. The point of SR it to safeguard our profession, practice and access to all herbal preparations in law, not to regulate the charges.Cheers > > I know that we are all discussing this as ethical, professional herbalists - > whether pro or anti SR. But we shouldn't forget that there are many more > people out there who are not. Who are in it for the money or have read a few > books or done a couple of week-end courses. How many such have you come across in your career as herbalist? I know _loads_ of grannies who continue the traditions of their family, and do kitchen herbalism for their kids and grandkids. I know of quite a lot of herbalifers. I don't think legislation will ever touch them ... they're a MLM, they keep low, they go from living room to living room. I know _no_ herbal weekenders (or book-readers) who are in it for the money. And I believe that the way to educate the public about herbalifers and similarly silly MLMs is to, well, _educate_ them. The way to deal with grannies who keep their traditions alive is to, well, _learn_ from them. They have a lot to tell ... Best, Henriette -- Henriette Kress, AHG Helsinki, Finland Henriette's herbal homepage: http://www.henriettesherbal.com Uusi kirja: http://www.henriettesherbal.com/fi/kayt-laak.html Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 8, 2011 Report Share Posted March 8, 2011 Hi Nathalie, This has been going on for sooo long now! Currently section 12.1 allows anybody to call themselves a Herbalist of whatever strain and set themselves up and practise with whatever they see fit. I am a Chinese medicine supplier as well all GMP, all fully tested in Europe to European standards. However not THMPD and I practise total traceability too! Under SR I will be able to carry on using my TCM tablets and any that fall short of the mark should be eliminated! Lorraine Lorraine Hodgkinson MNIMH MRCHM HERBS AND HELPERS 6, Butts Fold, Cockermouth, Cumbria, CA13 9HY. UK. Tel: +44 (0) 1900 826392 Mobile: 07761 489838 (O2) www.herbalmedicineuk.com > Dear Lorraine, when i first started ordering from herb suppliers i was required to show my qualification (for Sch3 herbs). It's a relatively easy system that regulates itself, there are not in fact that many practising herbalists (Western herbalists) to really warrant state regulation. Is there really any evidence that 'unqualified' herbalists are a problem? I'd be very interested to see some actual numbers on this. Let's not forget that there are occasionally cases of Doctors who turn out not to be qualified at all! Frauds & phoneys always find a way through the net if they are determined enough. > > From contact with TCM herbalists & suppliers i have seen with my own eyes that there is manifestly a problem, most have no traceablilty AT ALL. Part of the problem seems to be that a large proportion of these compounds (tablets as well as creams etc) are imported from China and the manufacturers there don't appear to have much in the way of traceability & quality control. I'd suggest that the TCM practitioners put pressure on their suppliers to get their house in order. > I think we could with some justification say that this should have been taken care of a long time ago by the TCM herbalists/suppliers/PA's. > > All the best & isn't it lovely now the sun's out? > Nathalie > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I know that we are all discussing this as ethical, professional > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > herbalists - > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > whethe Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 8, 2011 Report Share Posted March 8, 2011 Hi Tim, I should have said " points " , as both paragraphs confirm what I have said. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I know that we are all discussing this as ethical, professional > > > > > > > herbalists - > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > whether pro or anti SR. But we shouldn't forget that there are > > > many more > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > people out there who are not. Who are in it for the money or have > > > > > > > read a few > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > books or done a couple of week-end courses. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > How many such have you come across in your career as herbalist? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I know _loads_ of grannies who continue the traditions of their > > > > > > > family, and do > > > > > > > > > > > > > > kitchen herbalism for their kids and grandkids. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I know of quite a lot of herbalifers. I don't think legislation will > > > ever > > > > > > > > > > > > > > touch them ... they're a MLM, they keep low, they go from living room to > > > > > > > > > > > > > > living room. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I know _no_ herbal weekenders (or book-readers) who are in it for the > > > > > > > money. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > And I believe that the way to educate the public about herbalifers and > > > > > > > > > > > > > > similarly silly MLMs is to, well, _educate_ them. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > The way to deal with grannies who keep their traditions alive is to, > > > > > > > well, > > > > > > > > > > > > > > _learn_ from them. They have a lot to tell ... > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Best, > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Henriette > > > > > > > > > > > > > > -- > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Henriette Kress, AHG Helsinki, Finland > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Henriette's herbal homepage: http://www.henriettesherbal.com > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Uusi kirja: http://www.henriettesherbal.com/fi/kayt-laak.html > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 8, 2011 Report Share Posted March 8, 2011 Dear Therri,I admire all herbalists who grow and make their own remedies - I have no time to do that (nor the land). But I also admire the modern developments that make herbal medicine more acceptable for a lot of patients (eg MediHerb tablets) and I know I cannot make such products myself because they require sophisticated equipment. So I want the preservation of right to practice  plus unchanged access to all unlicensed herbal products. The latter cannot be done without SR.CheersPS MediHerb tablets are exceptionally good (perhaps not for head hitting)... > > > > > > I know that we are all discussing this as ethical, professional > herbalists - > > > whether pro or anti SR. But we shouldn't forget that there are many more > > > people out there who are not. Who are in it for the money or have > read a few > > > books or done a couple of week-end courses. > > How many such have you come across in your career as herbalist? > > I know _loads_ of grannies who continue the traditions of their > family, and do > > kitchen herbalism for their kids and grandkids. > > I know of quite a lot of herbalifers. I don't think legislation will ever > > touch them ... they're a MLM, they keep low, they go from living room to > > living room. > > I know _no_ herbal weekenders (or book-readers) who are in it for the > money. > > And I believe that the way to educate the public about herbalifers and > > similarly silly MLMs is to, well, _educate_ them. > > The way to deal with grannies who keep their traditions alive is to, > well, > > _learn_ from them. They have a lot to tell ... > > Best, > > Henriette > > -- > > Henriette Kress, AHG Helsinki, Finland > > Henriette's herbal homepage: http://www.henriettesherbal.com > > Uusi kirja: http://www.henriettesherbal.com/fi/kayt-laak.html > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 8, 2011 Report Share Posted March 8, 2011 Hello , I too wish to to continue to practice, but am happy to limit my materia medica to tinctures, dried herbs and formulated capsules that I can make myself. So the option to keep us all happy is for those who wish to become SR’ed to do so, and in so doing have access to third party prepared formulations. For those who do not wish to be SR’ed, to continue to practice under 12(1) as it stands, and limit their materia medica accordingly. Then that keeps us all happy, and we can then put ourefforts back into caring for our patients. Best regards, Tim. From: anna.newton@... Sent: Tuesday, March 08, 2011 2:31 PM To: ukherbal-list Subject: Re: Re: Regulation Dear Therri,I admire all herbalists who grow and make their own remedies - I have no time to do that (nor the land). But I also admire the modern developments that make herbal medicine more acceptable for a lot of patients (eg MediHerb tablets) and I know I cannot make such products myself because they require sophisticated equipment. So I want the preservation of right to practice plus unchanged access to all unlicensed herbal products. The latter cannot be done without SR.CheersPS MediHerb tablets are exceptionally good (perhaps not for head hitting)... > > > > > > I know that we are all discussing this as ethical, professional > herbalists - > > > whether pro or anti SR. But we shouldn't forget that there are many more > > > people out there who are not. Who are in it for the money or have > read a few > > > books or done a couple of week-end courses. > > How many such have you come across in your career as herbalist? > > I know _loads_ of grannies who continue the traditions of their > family, and do > > kitchen herbalism for their kids and grandkids. > > I know of quite a lot of herbalifers. I don't think legislation will ever > > touch them ... they're a MLM, they keep low, they go from living room to > > living room. > > I know _no_ herbal weekenders (or book-readers) who are in it for the > money. > > And I believe that the way to educate the public about herbalifers and > > similarly silly MLMs is to, well, _educate_ them. > > The way to deal with grannies who keep their traditions alive is to, > well, > > _learn_ from them. They have a lot to tell ... > > Best, > > Henriette > > -- > > Henriette Kress, AHG Helsinki, Finland > > Henriette's herbal homepage: http://www.henriettesherbal.com > > Uusi kirja: http://www.henriettesherbal.com/fi/kayt-laak.html > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 8, 2011 Report Share Posted March 8, 2011 You are right - emails can be misinterpreted. However my original point stands and is mentioned by others - existing law already deals with issues of contamination and adulteration Regards Gascoigne -original message- Subject: Re: Re: Regulation From: anna.newton@... Date: 07-03-2011 22:51 Hi ,you keep misinterpreting what I say - . I think that we are all herbalists and I have great respect for other traditions, but historically in the UK it has been some Chinese (mainly) and some Ayuverdic herbalists that caused problems by prescribing herbal preparations " spiked " with orthodox drugs or heavy metals. These incidents have been invariably interpreted by the press as examples of what ALL herbalists do irrespective of tradition/training etc. That is what I was talking about - the public perception of herbalist (and the governmental bodies) perpetuated by the press.Regards > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I know that we are all discussing this as ethical, professional > > > herbalists - > > > > > > > whether pro or anti SR. But we shouldn't forget that there are > many more > > > > > > > people out there who are not. Who are in it for the money or have > > > read a few > > > > > > > books or done a couple of week-end courses. > > > > > > How many such have you come across in your career as herbalist? > > > > > > I know _loads_ of grannies who continue the traditions of their > > > family, and do > > > > > > kitchen herbalism for their kids and grandkids. > > > > > > I know of quite a lot of herbalifers. I don't think legislation will > ever > > > > > > touch them ... they're a MLM, they keep low, they go from living room to > > > > > > living room. > > > > > > I know _no_ herbal weekenders (or book-readers) who are in it for the > > > money. > > > > > > And I believe that the way to educate the public about herbalifers and > > > > > > similarly silly MLMs is to, well, _educate_ them. > > > > > > The way to deal with grannies who keep their traditions alive is to, > > > well, > > > > > > _learn_ from them. They have a lot to tell ... > > > > > > Best, > > > > > > Henriette > > > > > > -- > > > > > > Henriette Kress, AHG Helsinki, Finland > > > > > > Henriette's herbal homepage: http://www.henriettesherbal.com > > > > > > Uusi kirja: http://www.henriettesherbal.com/fi/kayt-laak.html > > > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 8, 2011 Report Share Posted March 8, 2011 I think the problem here is how we classify practitioners. There will always be a proportion within any group who will flout any code, moral standard or law. If a member of the public wants to try to access herbal medicine they may well look at the various professional bodies websites. The problem is anyone can set up a professional body and in herbal medicine there are many. Think how you would find a builder if you had no recommendations from friends and family. This is the danger area where the unscrupulous operate. I cannot give any answer but hope I have helped to define the problem. Sent using BlackBerry® from Orange Re: Re: Regulation From: anna.newton@... Date: 07-03-2011 22:51 Hi ,you keep misinterpreting what I say - . I think that we are all herbalists and I have great respect for other traditions, but historically in the UK it has been some Chinese (mainly) and some Ayuverdic herbalists that caused problems by prescribing herbal preparations " spiked " with orthodox drugs or heavy metals. These incidents have been invariably interpreted by the press as examples of what ALL herbalists do irrespective of tradition/training etc. That is what I was talking about - the public perception of herbalist (and the governmental bodies) perpetuated by the press.Regards > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I know that we are all discussing this as ethical, professional > > > herbalists - > > > > > > > whether pro or anti SR. But we shouldn't forget that there are > many more > > > > > > > people out there who are not. Who are in it for the money or have > > > read a few > > > > > > > books or done a couple of week-end courses. > > > > > > How many such have you come across in your career as herbalist? > > > > > > I know_loads_ of grannies who continue the traditions of their > > > family, and do > > > > > > kitchen herbalism for their kids and grandkids. > > > > > > I know of quite a lot of herbalifers. I don't think legislation will > ever > > > > > > touch them ... they're a MLM, they keep low, they go from living room to > > > > > > living room. > > > > > > I know_no_ herbal weekenders (or book-readers) who are in it for the > > > money. > > > > > > And I believe that the way to educate the public about herbalifers and > > > > > > similarly silly MLMs is to, well,_educate_ them. > > > > > > The way to deal with grannies who keep their traditions alive is to, > > > well, > > > > > >_learn_ from them. They have a lot to tell ... > > > > > > Best, > > > > > > Henriette > > > > > > -- > > > > > > Henriette Kress, AHG Helsinki, Finland > > > > > > Henriette's herbal homepage: http://www.henriettesherbal.com > > > > > > Uusi kirja: http://www.henriettesherbal.com/fi/kayt-laak.html > > > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 8, 2011 Report Share Posted March 8, 2011 Hi Nathalie, Yes it's easy to look at what's on the table and size up whether it suits us individually. However herbal medicine in the UK is much wider than our own worlds. Therefore because laws and legislation affect everybody toes are going to get crushed. I'm sure we all want the public to safely access Herbalists and herbal medicine. Therefore it's got to be clear who safe Herbalists are and when it comes to products what can be trusted. Im sure you buy stuff from the supermarket and take it as read that it's been prepared properly and is safe and free from 'nasties'. Also in choosing a service as important as healthcare I'm sure you'd want to know that the person administering it was properly trained and not just fresh off a couple of weekends or so! There are two extremes the blasé and dreamy end and how can this stuff match real 'medicine' end. Lorraine Lorraine Hodgkinson MNIMH MRCHM HERBS AND HELPERS 6, Butts Fold, Cockermouth, Cumbria, CA13 9HY. UK. Tel: +44 (0) 1900 826392 Mobile: 07761 489838 (O2) www.herbalmedicineuk.com > Hi Lorraine, glad to hear that you're all GMP'd up! > I agree that THMPD is a blunt instrument, probably those most affected should've looked for a way to get around it earlier. Candidly, as a herbalist who doesn't use third party (or tablets etc) i hadn't considered it a threat until SR began to use it as a reason for being. > Unfortunately unless we are now very carfeul i can't see SR & THMPD between them leaving much for those of us who prefer to remain outside the mainstream. > And for those of you who wonder why; its for the same reason that i don't want my NHS records online/my phone records kept etc etc - its a civil liberties/rights issue. > > But feeling quite cheerful today because i can see some lovely crocus and sweet violets out the window > Nathalie > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > From: Dr S Gascoigne <gasco@ <mailto:gasco%40eircom.net>> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Subject: Re: Re: Regulation > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > To: ukherbal-list <mailto:ukherbal-list%40yahoogroups.com> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Date: Sunday, 6 March, 2011, 20:33 > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > And will regulation solve this? I am medically qualified - regulated and > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > about to be 'validated'. I know of doctors who charge a lot more than > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > £150, who prescribe useless and dangerous medicines, who misdiagnose and > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > mistreat. Does this mean that regulation is the answer? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > An interesting item on File on Four today on Radio 4 about GP's - no-one > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > knows how effective they are because no-one is checking. What gain will > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 8, 2011 Report Share Posted March 8, 2011 Hello Therri, So if anyone can legally call themselves a practitioner as now and set up exactly as you and do everything you do without any training then how is that regulated? Lorraine Lorraine Hodgkinson MNIMH MRCHM HERBS AND HELPERS 6, Butts Fold, Cockermouth, Cumbria, CA13 9HY. UK. Tel: +44 (0) 1900 826392 Mobile: 07761 489838 (O2) www.herbalmedicineuk.com > Dear , I don't have any problem with your desire for SR, but I will have to take your word about the MediHerb tablets. My point about SR is that there is a middle way. You can have SR without changing section 12(1). You can be a regulated herbalist with all that entails, and as long as section 12(1) remains unchanged, I can be a unregulated herbalist with all that entails. The rights which you wish to preserve do not require changes to section 12(1). > > Regards, Therri > > From: anna.newton@... > Sent: Tuesday, March 08, 2011 2:31 PM > To: ukherbal-list > Subject: Re: Re: Regulation > > Dear Therri,I admire all herbalists who grow and make their own remedies - I have no time to do that (nor the land). But I also admire the modern developments that make herbal medicine more acceptable for a lot of patients (eg MediHerb tablets) and I know I cannot make such products myself because they require sophisticated equipment. So I want the preservation of right to practice plus unchanged access to all unlicensed herbal products. The latter cannot be done without SR.CheersPS MediHerb tablets are exceptionally good (perhaps not for head hitting)... > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I know that we are all discussing this as ethical, professional > > > herbalists - > > > > > > > whether pro or anti SR. But we shouldn't forget that there are many more > > > > > > > people out there who are not. Who are in it for the money or have > > > read a few > > > > > > > books or done a couple of week-end courses. > > > > > > How many such have you come across in your career as herbalist? > > > > > > I know _loads_ of grannies who continue the traditions of their > > > family, and do > > > > > > kitchen herbalism for their kids and grandkids. > > > > > > I know of quite a lot of herbalifers. I don't think legislation will ever > > > > > > touch them ... they're a MLM, they keep low, they go from living room to > > > > > > living room. > > > > > > I know _no_ herbal weekenders (or book-readers) who are in it for the > > > money. > > > > > > And I believe that the way to educate the public about herbalifers and > > > > > > similarly silly MLMs is to, well, _educate_ them. > > > > > > The way to deal with grannies who keep their traditions alive is to, > > > well, > > > > > > _learn_ from them. They have a lot to tell ... > > > > > > Best, > > > > > > Henriette > > > > > > -- > > > > > > Henriette Kress, AHG Helsinki, Finland > > > > > > Henriette's herbal homepage: http://www.henriettesherbal.com > > > > > > Uusi kirja: http://www.henriettesherbal.com/fi/kayt-laak.html > > > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 10, 2011 Report Share Posted March 10, 2011 Hello Sally, You must have been pretty gutted when you realised what you had purchased. But the incident you experienced illustrates that regardless of legislation, there will ALWAYS be those who can, and will, circumvent the most stringent legislation that is enacted. For instance, the likes of the noni juice salesman to whom referred, is likely to find more inventive ways to get round SR. The problem with adulteration of herbs with pharmaceuticals, contamination with bacteria, heavy metals etc. is that existing legislation covering such things has not been adequately enforced. So until that happens, the introduction of further layers of legislation seems to me not only to be futile, threatens the smaller scale producer (which gives the best possible community based situation for a herbalist to get to know and trust that producer) who I feel produces the best quality herbal medicines, and could engender the sense of false security. And There is an argument that the more complex the legislation, the more opportunity there is for less that honest producer to hide behind the complexity of that legislation. Best regards, Tim. From: Sally Owen Sent: Wednesday, March 09, 2011 5:03 PM To: ukherbal-list Subject: Re: Re: Regulation On a different note, but also illegal- I was once with friends hurrying through a chinese supermarket, buying tinned shitake, dried whole roots to cook with at home, chillie sauce etc, and I bought a tin of " herb jelly " without looking at it carefully. When i got it home, I researched the ingredients on t'internet, and found its main ingredient was endangered sea turtle, export of which is prohibited under CITES. Even if we make our own tinctures, sometimes those pesky foreign herbs are the ones that seem indicated. And I want to be able to rely on them to be them - and not mixed with endangered turtle. just saying Sally Owen Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 10, 2011 Report Share Posted March 10, 2011 Sorry Therri, I thought this was a peaceful and informative discussion for all. No intention to irritate anyone. Can I ask how I've offended you? Lorraine Lorraine Hodgkinson MNIMH MRCHM HERBS AND HELPERS 6, Butts Fold, Cockermouth, Cumbria, CA13 9HY. UK. Tel: +44 (0) 1900 826392 Mobile: 07761 489838 (O2) www.herbalmedicineuk.com > Lorraine, is your language deliberately inflammatory? > > Therri > > From: Herbs and Helpers > Sent: Thursday, March 10, 2011 5:57 AM > To: ukherbal-list > Subject: Re: Re: Regulation > > What would stop you dining Nathalie? Surely any bone fide Herbalist will be eligible to register. > > Lorraine > > Lorraine Hodgkinson MNIMH MRCHM > HERBS AND HELPERS > 6, Butts Fold, Cockermouth, > Cumbria, CA13 9HY. UK. > Tel: +44 (0) 1900 826392 > Mobile: 07761 489838 (O2) > www.herbalmedicineuk.com > > > > > Agreed. Unfortunately SR & reform of section12(1) as it is envisaged will leave many who wish to dine without access to the cutlery, dining service or menu. > > > > Apologies for pushing out the metaphor boat! > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > From: Therri Lahood <harkster@ > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > <mailto:harkster%40dsl. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 10, 2011 Report Share Posted March 10, 2011 Hello Tim, I was just looking at the MHRA legislation regarding THMPD and they have now tightened up the rules to say that any THMPD product coming into the UK must be made in an EU GMP certified facility. Also you will require an import license on such products. So it looks like the idea is to try and stop 'rogue' products from entering the country in the first place. There will of course always be the suitcase importers claiming personal use. Lorraine Lorraine Hodgkinson MNIMH MRCHM HERBS AND HELPERS 6, Butts Fold, Cockermouth, Cumbria, CA13 9HY. UK. Tel: +44 (0) 1900 826392 Mobile: 07761 489838 (O2) www.herbalmedicineuk.com > Hello Sally, > > You must have been pretty gutted when you realised what you had purchased. But the incident you experienced illustrates that regardless of legislation, there will ALWAYS be those who can, and will, circumvent the most stringent legislation that is enacted. For instance, the likes of the noni juice salesman to whom referred, is likely to find more inventive ways to get round SR. > > The problem with adulteration of herbs with pharmaceuticals, contamination with bacteria, heavy metals etc. is that existing legislation covering such things has not been adequately enforced. So until that happens, the introduction of further layers of legislation seems to me not only to be futile, threatens the smaller scale producer (which gives the best possible community based situation for a herbalist to get to know and trust that producer) who I feel produces the best quality herbal medicines, and could engender the sense of false security. And There is an argument that the more complex the legislation, the more opportunity there is for less that honest producer to hide behind the complexity of that legislation. > > Best regards, > Tim. > > From: Sally Owen > Sent: Wednesday, March 09, 2011 5:03 PM > To: ukherbal-list > Subject: Re: Re: Regulation > > On a different note, but also illegal- I was once with friends > hurrying through a chinese supermarket, buying tinned shitake, dried > whole roots to cook with at home, chillie sauce etc, and I bought a > tin of " herb jelly " without looking at it carefully. > When i got it home, I researched the ingredients on t'internet, and > found its main ingredient was endangered sea turtle, export of which > is prohibited under CITES. > > Even if we make our own tinctures, sometimes those pesky foreign herbs > are the ones that seem indicated. And I want to be able to rely on > them to be them - and not mixed with endangered turtle. > > just saying > > Sally Owen > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 10, 2011 Report Share Posted March 10, 2011 >> Lorraine wrote: >> > What would stop you dining Nathalie? Surely any bone fide Herbalist will >> > be eligible to register. > Therri wrote: >> Lorraine, is your language deliberately inflammatory? Lorraine wrote: > I thought this was a peaceful and informative discussion > for all. No intention to irritate anyone. Can I ask how > I've offended you? You assumed that everybody wants to be regulated. That's not so. (I also think that grandmas are bona fide herbalists (the ultimate ones, so to speak); however, they'll never be eligible for registration ...) H. -- Henriette Kress, AHG             Helsinki, Finland Henriette's herbal homepage:  http://www.henriettesherbal.com Uusi kirja: http://www.henriettesherbal.com/fi/kayt-laak.html Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 10, 2011 Report Share Posted March 10, 2011 Sorry for that assumption! I am presuming everybody on this list is a fully paid up Herbalists Herbalist. I would personally hope that SR would allow all those who should be there to be recognised as such. Of course it is a personal choice to register or not and I apologise to Nathalie if I've caused any offence by my comments. Lorraine Lorraine Hodgkinson MNIMH MRCHM HERBS AND HELPERS 6, Butts Fold, Cockermouth, Cumbria, CA13 9HY. UK. Tel: +44 (0) 1900 826392 Mobile: 07761 489838 (O2) www.herbalmedicineuk.com > >> Lorraine wrote: > >> > What would stop you dining Nathalie? Surely any bone fide Herbalist will > >> > be eligible to register. > > > Therri wrote: > >> Lorraine, is your language deliberately inflammatory? > > Lorraine wrote: > > I thought this was a peaceful and informative discussion > > for all. No intention to irritate anyone. Can I ask how > > I've offended you? > > You assumed that everybody wants to be regulated. That's not so. > > (I also think that grandmas are bona fide herbalists (the ultimate ones, so to > speak); however, they'll never be eligible for registration ...) > > H. > > -- > Henriette Kress, AHG Helsinki, Finland > Henriette's herbal homepage: http://www.henriettesherbal.com > Uusi kirja: http://www.henriettesherbal.com/fi/kayt-laak.html > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 10, 2011 Report Share Posted March 10, 2011 Hi Sally, with the power of consumer choice, use a strategy which has been known to be effective: read the label, talk to the shopkeeper, who may not be aware of the situation, and do not buy the product. Marilena. To: ukherbal-list From: herbsandhelpers@... Date: Thu, 10 Mar 2011 09:49:25 +0000 Subject: Re: Re: Regulation Hello Tim, I was just looking at the MHRA legislation regarding THMPD and they have now tightened up the rules to say that any THMPD product coming into the UK must be made in an EU GMP certified facility. Also you will require an import license on such products. So it looks like the idea is to try and stop 'rogue' products from entering the country in the first place. There will of course always be the suitcase importers claiming personal use. Lorraine Lorraine Hodgkinson MNIMH MRCHM HERBS AND HELPERS 6, Butts Fold, Cockermouth, Cumbria, CA13 9HY. UK. Tel: +44 (0) 1900 826392 Mobile: 07761 489838 (O2) www.herbalmedicineuk.com > Hello Sally, > > You must have been pretty gutted when you realised what you had purchased. But the incident you experienced illustrates that regardless of legislation, there will ALWAYS be those who can, and will, circumvent the most stringent legislation that is enacted. For instance, the likes of the noni juice salesman to whom referred, is likely to find more inventive ways to get round SR. > > The problem with adulteration of herbs with pharmaceuticals, contamination with bacteria, heavy metals etc. is that existing legislation covering such things has not been adequately enforced. So until that happens, the introduction of further layers of legislation seems to me not only to be futile, threatens the smaller scale producer (which gives the best possible community based situation for a herbalist to get to know and trust that producer) who I feel produces the best quality herbal medicines, and could engender the sense of false security. And There is an argument that the more complex the legislation, the more opportunity there is for less that honest producer to hide behind the complexity of that legislation. > > Best regards, > Tim. > > From: Sally Owen > Sent: Wednesday, March 09, 2011 5:03 PM > To: ukherbal-list > Subject: Re: Re: Regulation > > On a different note, but also illegal- I was once with friends > hurrying through a chinese supermarket, buying tinned shitake, dried > whole roots to cook with at home, chillie sauce etc, and I bought a > tin of " herb jelly " without looking at it carefully. > When i got it home, I researched the ingredients on t'internet, and > found its main ingredient was endangered sea turtle, export of which > is prohibited under CITES. > > Even if we make our own tinctures, sometimes those pesky foreign herbs > are the ones that seem indicated. And I want to be able to rely on > them to be them - and not mixed with endangered turtle. > > just saying > > Sally Owen > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 10, 2011 Report Share Posted March 10, 2011 Dear Lorraine, I think we need to make a difference between retail sale and practitioner sale. Retail is to the general public, and has very stringent GMP requirements, because a Recall Procedure (in case of a mistake in preparation) needs to be put into place, which is difficult if selling to the general public. So stringent hygiene, identification, testing and traceability measures are required, to ensure that the product poses the minimum of risk and the maximum of traceability. Practitioner sale is documented through case notes, with name, contact details and date of sale recorded. I f a mistake came through, for example through our suppliers, this would be traceable and the consumer can be adviced immediately to stop taking the medicine and take appropriate measures if needed. At a two day workshop in 2004 given by MHRA on wholesale and manufacturing licensing, the MHRA officials confirmed that the sale through a practitioner on a one to one basis after personal consultation is not seen as retail. Therefore, the manufacture by herbalists of medicines for their patients also needs less stringent GMP measures. The RCHM is a practitioner organisation, not a retail organisation. I am aware that you are selling your products quite widely, as you often promote them on this list, and therefore assume that you need really stringent EU GMP for your products, as you do not always have direct records of the consumer, if you are selling them on to other practitioners who then dispense them to their patients, which would probably be considered a retail activity. But a practitioner who gives them directly to their patients after having them made personally, from raw materials, can also ensure that Identification, Hygiene, Traceability and Contamination are according to standards. Anyone wishing to know what the MHRA guidelines are for herbal products for retail , should read the Orange Guide, available from WH (see MHRA website for real title), and adapt the requirements to their own situation. This would be advisable for anyone making their own remedies from raw materials (eg collecting herbs and making them into tinctures etc) for dispensing to their own patients. So I think that there is no need to take down the RCHM scheme, just because it does not suit your needs, does not mean it is not good for others. Kind regards, Marilena. To: ukherbal-list From: herbsandhelpers@... Date: Thu, 10 Mar 2011 05:55:18 +0000 Subject: Re: Re: Regulation Hello , I've remained outside this scheme for various reasons. Please don't be fooled though. The RCHM has no regulatory capacity over suppliers the MHRA is the regulator. All that's need to get into the ECHM scheme is for you to pay them to visit you. Please note the fact that any 'GMP' is accepted rather than what the MHRA sets down should ring alarm bells ... Please always ask questions of your suppliers I think you'll find that most rely in testing outside the EU. This is not acceptable to the MHRA who only recognise certified facilities. A lot of 'powders' may be borderline the standards that control what gets through should always meet EU levels. Best wishes, Lorraine Lorraine Hodgkinson MNIMH MRCHM HERBS AND HELPERS 6, Butts Fold, Cockermouth, Cumbria, CA13 9HY. UK. Tel: +44 (0) 1900 826392 Mobile: 07761 489838 (O2) www.herbalmedicineuk.com > Hi, > > Before everyone gets carried away and sounding like a branch meeting of > UKIP debating 'foreigners' - the main point here is about herbal > practice and herbal safety. > > The Register of Chinese Herbal Medicine developed a method of approving > suppliers of Chinese herbs in 2004 so that practitioners and patients > could be reassured about herbal quality. I personally have used Chinese > herbal powders for getting on for 20 years with no problem and I am > happy that they are what they claim to be and they are not contaminated. > > If you want to discuss other herbs, usually prepared and from mainland > China, then please do not associate them, implicitly or explicitly, with > the professional practice of Chinese herbal medicine. > > Regards > > Gascoigne > > > > > > On a different note, but also illegal- I was once with friends > > hurrying through a chinese supermarket, buying tinned shitake, dried > > whole roots to cook with at home, chillie sauce etc, and I bought a > > tin of " herb jelly " without looking at it carefully. > > When i got it home, I researched the ingredients on t'internet, and > > found its main ingredient was endangered sea turtle, export of which > > is prohibited under CITES. > > > > Even if we make our own tinctures, sometimes those pesky foreign herbs > > are the ones that seem indicated. And I want to be able to rely on > > them to be them - and not mixed with endangered turtle. > > > > just saying > > > > Sally Owen > > > > > > > > > Yes I'd agree, > > > Once you start looking below the surface, asking > > > a few questions then it can be quite scary. We with a Western mind > > > set 'assume' things are okay for various reasons. However with TCM > > > currently the only way to be sure is to have it tested in a European > > > lab. You can then verify to European standards the facts about > > > product, no argument. > > > > > > May sound scary but sometimes after European testing stuff has to be > > > sent back! > > > > > > A European COA is the only way to be sure the stuff is what it's > > > purported to be! > > > > > > Total traceability especially speed of response is also vital. It > > > allows you to reassue clients, provide them with hard data if needed > > > that you're doing it right and safeguarding their health. > > > > > > Lorraine > > > > > > Lorraine Hodgkinson MNIMH MRCHM > > > HERBS AND HELPERS > > > 6, Butts Fold, Cockermouth, > > > Cumbria, CA13 9HY. UK. > > > Tel: +44 (0) 1900 826392 > > > Mobile: 07761 489838 (O2) > > > www.herbalmedicineuk.com > > > > > > > > > On 9 Mar 2011, at 10:45, " natlychid2000 " <natly@... > > <mailto:natly%40chidley.org>> wrote: > > > > > >> Dear > > >> I'm not basing my comments on hearsay, i've had personal direct > > >> eyeball experience of TCM practitioner products in the last 4 weeks > > >> that were exactly as i have described, and it wasn't a small > > >> operation. > > >> Apologies to those who are doing the right thing but you have to > > >> admit that this has been, and continues to be, a real problem. > > >> I'm not in favour of herbs being treated as standardised extracts, > > >> tested as if they were pharmaceuticals, a small amount of traceable > > >> paperwork is, however, necessary. Particularly in products where > > >> you cannot use smell, touch taste to verify the contents. > > >> > > >> Looks like being another glorious day, wish i was in the garden! > > >> Nathalie > > >> > > >> > > >>>>>> > > >>>>>>> > > >>>>>> > > >>>>>>> From: Therri Lahood <harkster@ > > >>>>>> > > >>>>>>> <mailto:harkster%40dsl.pipex.com>> > > >>>>>> > > >>>>>>> Subject: Re: Re: Regulation > > >>>>>> > > >>>>>>> To: ukherbal-list > > <mailto:ukherbal-list%40yahoogroups.com> > > >>>> <mailto:ukherbal-list%40yahoogroups.com> > > >>>> <mailto:ukherbal-list%40yahoogroups.com> > > >>>>>> > > >>>>>>> Date: Monday, 7 March, 2011, 19:07 > > >>>>>> > > >>>>>> Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 10, 2011 Report Share Posted March 10, 2011 Hi sally, there is such a thing as critical mass..... each one of us is an individual. Even the government is made of individual people. Unless an individual takes some action, there will be no action. If you decide not to buy the product because it has an endangered turtle species in it, and you tell the shopkeeper about that, that person might not realise that, because they may not have time to check all the indredients of all the products they are selling. Or they may not think that the life of a turtle is important. o we can start to engage in discussions tlaks etc about why the life of one turtle is important, and that if we eat all the turtles, then one day there will be no turtle on this planet, which may have all sorts of consequences for other animals, because everything is interrelated. So if I can explain that to the shopekeeper, that person might not immediately agree with me or see the truth in that, but that person might start to think it over, and then when they are going to buy a new stock of products they might think twice about buying the one with the turtle in it, and might start to look at other ingredients of other products too. My own thought on these things also have come about not by themselves, but because someone started to talk to me about this, and so on, so now we are talking about it on this list and many more are reading this too, and that is how a critical mass is formed: that is how change actually happens. Marilena. To: ukherbal-list From: sally@... Date: Thu, 10 Mar 2011 11:01:13 +0000 Subject: Re: Re: Regulation Hi Marilenna how would one gaijin not buying a small tin of herb jelly help these turtles? However I am reassured by Lorraine's information regarding this matter. Sally > > Hi Sally, with the power of consumer choice, use a strategy which > has been known to be effective: read the label, talk to the > shopkeeper, who may not be aware of the situation, and do not buy > the product. > Marilena. > > > To: ukherbal-list > From: herbsandhelpers@... > Date: Thu, 10 Mar 2011 09:49:25 +0000 > Subject: Re: Re: Regulation > > > > > > > Hello Tim, > I was just looking at the MHRA legislation regarding THMPD and they > have now tightened up the rules to say that any THMPD product coming > into the UK must be made in an EU GMP certified facility. Also you > will require an import license on such products. So it looks like > the idea is to try and stop 'rogue' products from entering the > country in the first place. There will of course always be the > suitcase importers claiming personal use. > > Lorraine > > Lorraine Hodgkinson MNIMH MRCHM > HERBS AND HELPERS > 6, Butts Fold, Cockermouth, > Cumbria, CA13 9HY. UK. > Tel: +44 (0) 1900 826392 > Mobile: 07761 489838 (O2) > www.herbalmedicineuk.com > > > >> Hello Sally, >> >> You must have been pretty gutted when you realised what you had >> purchased. But the incident you experienced illustrates that >> regardless of legislation, there will ALWAYS be those who can, and >> will, circumvent the most stringent legislation that is enacted. >> For instance, the likes of the noni juice salesman to whom >> referred, is likely to find more inventive ways to get round SR. >> >> The problem with adulteration of herbs with pharmaceuticals, >> contamination with bacteria, heavy metals etc. is that existing >> legislation covering such things has not been adequately enforced. >> So until that happens, the introduction of further layers of >> legislation seems to me not only to be futile, threatens the >> smaller scale producer (which gives the best possible community >> based situation for a herbalist to get to know and trust that >> producer) who I feel produces the best quality herbal medicines, >> and could engender the sense of false security. And There is an >> argument that the more complex the legislation, the more >> opportunity there is for less that honest producer to hide behind >> the complexity of that legislation. >> >> Best regards, >> Tim. >> >> From: Sally Owen >> Sent: Wednesday, March 09, 2011 5:03 PM >> To: ukherbal-list >> Subject: Re: Re: Regulation >> >> On a different note, but also illegal- I was once with friends >> hurrying through a chinese supermarket, buying tinned shitake, dried >> whole roots to cook with at home, chillie sauce etc, and I bought a >> tin of " herb jelly " without looking at it carefully. >> When i got it home, I researched the ingredients on t'internet, and >> found its main ingredient was endangered sea turtle, export of which >> is prohibited under CITES. >> >> Even if we make our own tinctures, sometimes those pesky foreign >> herbs >> are the ones that seem indicated. And I want to be able to rely on >> them to be them - and not mixed with endangered turtle. >> >> just saying >> >> Sally Owen >> >> Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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