Guest guest Posted February 17, 2011 Report Share Posted February 17, 2011 I imagine you must be talking about a takeover bid by the EHTPA - can't see any of the others surviving once they get their PR company onto it - no such thing as a level playing field http://www.cogitamus.co.uk/?p=290 From: Jacqui Sent: Thursday, February 17, 2011 2:45 PM To: ukherbal-list Subject: Re: Regulation Well that would be reasonable. Do you think we will have one body for herbalists, at present we have several NIMH, AMH IRCHH,CPP URHP sorry if I missed anyone. Fees to belong to these PA's vary enormously. Wonder what will happen?? best wishes Jacqui > > In reply to Jacqui, it is not going to cost thousands, that is why the > profession opted for regulation via an existing body, i.e. the HPC > rather than setting up a new and separate body as the osteopaths and > chiropractors did (one each!). I believe the cost was well under £100 > per annum although I can't find it on their website now. > a > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 17, 2011 Report Share Posted February 17, 2011 I wonder how much that cost? A distorted democracy comes at a price. Tim Lane. From: Therri Lahood Sent: Thursday, February 17, 2011 3:10 PM To: ukherbal-list Subject: Re: Re: Regulation I imagine you must be talking about a takeover bid by the EHTPA - can't see any of the others surviving once they get their PR company onto it - no such thing as a level playing field http://www.cogitamus.co.uk/?p=290 From: Jacqui Sent: Thursday, February 17, 2011 2:45 PM To: mailto:ukherbal-list%40yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: Regulation Well that would be reasonable. Do you think we will have one body for herbalists, at present we have several NIMH, AMH IRCHH,CPP URHP sorry if I missed anyone. Fees to belong to these PA's vary enormously. Wonder what will happen?? best wishes Jacqui > > In reply to Jacqui, it is not going to cost thousands, that is why the > profession opted for regulation via an existing body, i.e. the HPC > rather than setting up a new and separate body as the osteopaths and > chiropractors did (one each!). I believe the cost was well under £100 > per annum although I can't find it on their website now. > a > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 17, 2011 Report Share Posted February 17, 2011 We must fight to the death to retain our right to make up and dispense medicines to our patients after consultations in the same time honoured safe way we have always done. It has been voiced in some circles that a GMP only situation would arise. Meaning that by default our right to make and dispense expired. I'm for legislation but not for any loss of of our rights. The full function of a Herbalist should be legally protected and strengthened. Also a path should be opened for other genuine professional Herbalists while leaving those 'pseudo' and unsuitable behind. Lorraine Hodgkinson Lorraine Hodgkinson MNIMH MRCHM HERBS AND HELPERS 6, Butts Fold, Cockermouth, Cumbria, CA13 9HY. UK. Tel: +44 (0) 1900 826392 Mobile: 07761 489838 (O2) www.herbalmedicineuk.com > Hi Zoe and all, > > feeling negative about it in some respects as the following from the DoH makes me wonder how long it will be before they intefere and change the section 12(1) act and what next, a u-turn on who can supply us? There seems to be a hint at production and making of medicines. See below the bit PERMIT AND REGULATE. If they are saying on one hand that medicines can still be made by individual herbalists a right that we want protected, how are THEY going to quality control what we make??? Alarm bells are ringing big time. Lets face it, DoH and others probably want a state controlled operation whereby you can only get your herbs from one of 2 suppliers that have GMP and likely we will be stopped from making our own. > > Just posted the merest bit of DoH, but encourage all of you to look more deeply. Also, what is going to be the cost to the herbalist, it will put people out of business because its going to costs thousands like the chiropractors and osteopaths...anyone car to comment???? > > " If practitioner regulation is in place for the purposes of creating an Article 5(1) scheme this also opens the way to reform Section 12 (1) of the Medicines Act 1968. Under Section 12 (1), practitioners may prepare unlicensed herbal medicines on their own premises for use following consultation with individual patients. It is intended to move to the position that only registered practitioners would be able to operate under Section 12 (1) after regulation of practitioners is in place " . > be underpinned by a strengthened system for regulating medicinal products. > > From the official government statement..... > > This approach will give practitioners and consumers continuing access to herbal medicines. It will do this by allowing us to use a derogation in the European legislation to set up a UK scheme to permit and regulate the supply, via practitioners, of unlicensed manufactured herbal medicines to meet individual patient needs. > > Best wishes > > Jacqui > > > > > > Well - it's done now. > > My instincts lean towards feeling negative but on the plus side I won't have to clean up the mess made by insane herbal bowel, liver cleanse, detox products prescribed by " holistic blah blahs " or undo the orthorexia and malnutrition caused by stoopid diets for " candida " . Or hilda style parasite cleanse capsules..... etc etc > > > > We must now stand REALLY STRONG and united to protect our rights as Medical Professionals and EXPERTS. The people we will be dealing with are anything but expert and know nothing about what we do. " What herb's good for Blah blah? " > > > > For me one of the most important things, especially given the global climate (of everything) is to maintain our rights to harvest, grow and make our own medicines. > > > > I went to an interesting talk by Dr Rosie s the other night. Apart from being a massive PR machine for her Health Creation program(Clever Rosie, Transition networks are a good PR target) it had some interesting stats on the growth of medical expenditure from the beginning of the NHS to 2020 by which time the expenditure on drugs will exceed our GNP. > > > > > > > > Zoe > > > > > > > > Medical Herbalist > > MNIMH CPP Dip. Phyt. > > Buteyko Breathing Practitoner > > > > " Wild Drugs " 'A Foragers Guide to Healing Plants' Gaia 2010 > > > > Bath > > 01761 439920 > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 17, 2011 Report Share Posted February 17, 2011 Thanks for this clarification ri Regulation I think we have to keep our eyes open, it seems to me the government can make things swing whichever way they want on any topic. When this debate started I was all for regulation as a means of protecting our profession, but having worked for a year in a clinic with a chiropractor I am not so enthusiastic. She tells me that they have been bound by red tape ever since they have been regulated, and they are not completely free to treat people how they want. There are guidelines to follow, and if they ignore the guidelines they are at risk of losing their right to practice. Plus she has lots of paperwork to fill in to prove she has followed the guidelines. What I want to know is, who will prescribe our guidelines? Is it the HPC? What do they know about the practice of herbal medicine? Now, if Conway [or someone seen as in a position of authority in the herbal world], were to write us some 'guidelines' that the HPC would be happy with, then we may be a bit happier. But really, WHO IS REGULATING US? I mean, who are these people in the HPC? People like Ernst? That would really worry me.... Maggie Pope Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 2, 2011 Report Share Posted March 2, 2011 Seems like it's business as usual around here, does no one else find the silence around SR deafening? Therri From: Therri Lahood Sent: Sunday, February 27, 2011 8:57 AM To: ukherbal-list Subject: Re: Re: Regulation www.homeopathyheals.me.uk/site/latest-news/573-state-regulation-for-practitioner\ s-of-herbal-medicine Cross-posted from Homeopathy Heals Me [campaigning website] Therri From: jones.lynda@... Sent: Friday, February 18, 2011 10:37 PM To: ukherbal-list Subject: Re: Re: Regulation Shame indeed!!! Sent from my iPhone Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 2, 2011 Report Share Posted March 2, 2011 Therri Lahood wrote: > Seems like it's business as usual around here, does no one else find the > silence around SR deafening? I'm not (yet) affected here in Finland, and I don't know that I will ever be. That being said: > www.homeopathyheals.me.uk/site/latest-news/573-state-regulation-for-practitioner\ s-of-herbal-medicine comes across as a paranoiac. She also calls herself " Dr " with no credentials whatsoever. Also, as far as I know, McI was pushing for UK regulation of herbalists LONG before anybody was talking about EU regulation of herbs. The two are not related, and continuing to say they are is muddled thinking. That article is crap. My own take on the imminent regulation of UK herbalists: * doctors still believe that herbs are balderdash * doctors still think that herbs must be dangerous if they work (digitalis is pulled out of the cupboard regularly as a demonstration of this) * doctors are _heavily_ influenced by pharmaceutical companies. Not perhaps by direct bribery (although that, too, happens), but mostly by trusting mainstream medical journals. The " unbiased " " scientific " research there is bought and sold by the pint by pharmacogiants. * herbs are cheap, can't be patented, and are as good or better for quite a lot of chronic diseases than mainstream medicines. Oops, there goes the profit. * who is influencing your HMC, which, if I understood things right, is about to regulate you? Doctors and pharmaceutical companies. And you are going to let that lot tell you what you can and cannot practice? Uh. Oh. Next, where are your _guarantees_ that you will have access to otherwise restricted herbs, once you're regulated? That should be clearly spelled out in laws that can't be changed at the drop of a hat. You should also do your very best to protect your 1968 herbalist laws. I do hope SR won't come back to bite you lot in the arse, very hard. H. -- Henriette Kress, AHG Helsinki, Finland Henriette's herbal homepage: http://www.henriettesherbal.com Uusi kirja: http://www.henriettesherbal.com/fi/kayt-laak.html Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 5, 2011 Report Share Posted March 5, 2011 aclarvin wrote: > > I know that we are all discussing this as ethical, professional herbalists - > whether pro or anti SR. But we shouldn't forget that there are many more > people out there who are not. Who are in it for the money or have read a few > books or done a couple of week-end courses. How many such have you come across in your career as herbalist? I know _loads_ of grannies who continue the traditions of their family, and do kitchen herbalism for their kids and grandkids. I know of quite a lot of herbalifers. I don't think legislation will ever touch them ... they're a MLM, they keep low, they go from living room to living room. I know _no_ herbal weekenders (or book-readers) who are in it for the money. And I believe that the way to educate the public about herbalifers and similarly silly MLMs is to, well, _educate_ them. The way to deal with grannies who keep their traditions alive is to, well, _learn_ from them. They have a lot to tell ... Best, Henriette -- Henriette Kress, AHG Helsinki, Finland Henriette's herbal homepage: http://www.henriettesherbal.com Uusi kirja: http://www.henriettesherbal.com/fi/kayt-laak.html Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 6, 2011 Report Share Posted March 6, 2011 Agree with you in part, Henriette. We should keep our traditions alive and those with actual experience (as opposed to academic education) have as much, if not more, true knowledge. But, I didn't say the 'week-enders' were in it for the money if you read my post carefully. But I have come across a number of people who have done this. Education is definitely the key - but what sort of education? For example, in the UK there are organisations on the internet offerring training as a herbalist and giving qualifications that don't exist with accreditation boards . Unless you start digging, it is easy to be taken in with logos etc. And I still think that we (as in everyone) have a big problem with what goes on on the internet because, like it or not, we are all tarred with same brush when cowboys call themselves herbalists and promote their herbal cures for money alone. Anne > > > > I know that we are all discussing this as ethical, professional herbalists - > > whether pro or anti SR. But we shouldn't forget that there are many more > > people out there who are not. Who are in it for the money or have read a few > > books or done a couple of week-end courses. > > How many such have you come across in your career as herbalist? > I know _loads_ of grannies who continue the traditions of their family, and do > kitchen herbalism for their kids and grandkids. > I know of quite a lot of herbalifers. I don't think legislation will ever > touch them ... they're a MLM, they keep low, they go from living room to > living room. > > I know _no_ herbal weekenders (or book-readers) who are in it for the money. > > And I believe that the way to educate the public about herbalifers and > similarly silly MLMs is to, well, _educate_ them. > > The way to deal with grannies who keep their traditions alive is to, well, > _learn_ from them. They have a lot to tell ... > > Best, > Henriette > > -- > Henriette Kress, AHG Helsinki, Finland > Henriette's herbal homepage: http://www.henriettesherbal.com > Uusi kirja: http://www.henriettesherbal.com/fi/kayt-laak.html > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 6, 2011 Report Share Posted March 6, 2011 There are initiatives out there to try to record these older memories - Ethnomedica (Kew) I think are looking for people to come on board to capture the information before it literally dies out. Two/three years ago I wrote a book for the Northumberland WIs which involved going round the county (and its a big, rural county) to individual interviews, group meetings, coffee mornings to collect their memories and recipes. The results were that very few of these older women were actually using the remedies that they talked about and that the range of herbs was incredibly limited. it was all in the past and not in the present. Anne > > Dear Anne, > It's more the flimsy bogus 'herbal education' sites that are in it for the money. I found a few sites some years ago luring people in who had a genuine interest in learning about herbal medicine, offering diplomas and telling them they were fit to practice after a 9 month or so on-line course and never having met a patient. > If we could FIND the grandmothers who still use herbal and traditional remedies, I would like to spend a few days with them and suck up their knowledge. But where are they? Because I couldn't find ANYBODY who knew ANYTHING about using herbs as medicine, I decided to train officially and get a degree. I am very thankful for my training, but the more I know the more I realise I don't know. > Maggie > > > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 6, 2011 Report Share Posted March 6, 2011 Dear Anne, Yes, I have joined the Ethnomedica project, which I wouldn't have known about if I hadn't studied and joined NIMH. And that is what it collects, MEMORIES. But it is such hard work to find anybody who makes remedies in their kitchen from plants they pick or are given. Maggie Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 7, 2011 Report Share Posted March 7, 2011 I've recently started working in product development for a dietary supplements manufacturer and have seen a few job ads for Medical Herbalists to join similar companies over the past few months. It's really encouraging to see that companies like this are recognising the need to bring experts in Herbal Medicine onto their teams, and I think it's a trend that will continue to grow in future. I spend a great deal of time in my new job negotiating the legislative minefield that's involved in ensuring that products legal to sell under both UK and EU legislation. The regs on what can and can't be said about products both in marketing and training material are extremely restrictive, to the point where I'm having to refer customers to practitioners (including a number of NIMH members) for advice. It's made me see regulation of Herbalists in a whole new light, as unless they're able to afford to get all their products licenced, manufacturers simply are not allowed to say what their products do and how to use them. The only other realistic option if someone wants holistic health advice is to speak to a practitioner such as a Herbalist. It's a bummer that we've had to fight for the right to carry on working over the past 19 years, but it's done now. If we want to make the profession thrive it's up to us to do it. At the end of the day, the decision to regulate us has been made, and whether or not we like it, there's no going back now. I never realised before starting this job just what a huge demand there is out there for sound advice on herbal healthcare, and how few people know about the services we can offer as Medical Herbalists. It's a terrible shame that we have such a low profile, and I have to say, we're the only ones responsible for doing anything about it. I'm lucky that my company agree that they can take care of preventative medicine and send the sick people to practitioners like Herbalists, and I hope the others follow. Like all professions, we need to move with the times and come up with innovative ideas to keep ourselves going. Isn't it time we stopped the whining and got on with raising awareness about what we do?. ________________________________ To: ukherbal-list Sent: Sat, 5 March, 2011 23:37:16 Subject: Re: Regulation  I know that we are all discussing this as ethical, professional herbalists - whether pro or anti SR. But we shouldn't forget that there are many more people out there who are not. Who are in it for the money or have read a few books or done a couple of week-end courses. You just have to look on the internet and see what herbs you can buy (or at least things that are given the name 'herbal') - 'herbal' slimming pills, herbs to make your hair grow, herbs to stop your hair growing .... Its big business for some who prey on the desperate and the gullible. The problem is that regulation will not stop this or even touch it. And then there are also the forces of capitalism (Big Pharma) who seem to have their eye on herbal matters too. Since their labs are coming through with fewer and fewer products and regulatory authorities are getting stickier about trial evidence,patentable herbal extracts are a nice new revenue stream. I read a lot of research papers for Greenfiles and am noticing a trend of more and more branded herbal product trials being reported. When you look into the product details, you find that it is an 'special' extract, protected by multiple patents. Maybe I'm being pessimistic, but I think the issues are wider than just being for or against SR. Whilst there will be areas that are well-represented by herbalists, there are also deserts and I don't think that the profile of herbalists is that high amongst the general public. Amongst the health professions - well, in a recent survey of done by the Drugs & Therapeutics Bulletin (mainly UK doctors) half of them said they got their information about herbs from Google, others got it from places such as Holland & Barrett or Boots. Why not from a proper herbalist? (I know I am assuming that H & B and Boots etc don't employ professional herbalists, so forgive me if anyone out there does work for them). Anne Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 7, 2011 Report Share Posted March 7, 2011 Hi , So SR is necessary in order to protect the public by weeding out unscrupulous CAM practitioners. Yet no clear evidence has been produced by the state that western herbalists are engaging in poor/bad practice or that patients are being abused or even that existing voluntary/self-regulating structures are failing to deal with any malpractice. Furthermore, there is no research that demonstrates that state regulation would in any way improve professional competence or enhance public protection and as points out medical doctors are regulated, yet cases of malpractice continue to occur. As I have said before, I am happy to support regulation for those herbalists who believe that their practice will be enhanced by working within a statutory framework. I have read the arguments but I am finding it hard to fathom why SR is diminished, in terms of best practice, safety etc, by independent herbalists working alongside it. Surely it will remain just as attractive to those patients who are reassured by a regulatory framework. It saddens me that herbalists are prepared to sacrifice diversity and patient choice in order to promote their preferred model when there is clearly a middle way. Therri Lahood From: anna.newton@... Sent: Monday, March 07, 2011 12:08 PM To: ukherbal-list Subject: Re: Re: Regulation Hi Steve,Regulation provides means of weeding out unscrupulous practitioners, orthodox or not. You can complain about misdiagnosing doctors to their regulators (but unfortunately not enough people do that). At the moment there is no way of stopping many useless CAM practitioners from practising. How much danger it is to the general public in comparison to the misguided prescribing by the doctors? Probably very little.However, one of the main points of pursuing the current SR is to safeguard the whole spectrum of what we can prescribe ie the unlicensed third party products. Regards > > > > > > I know that we are all discussing this as ethical, professional > herbalists - > > > whether pro or anti SR. But we shouldn't forget that there are many more > > > people out there who are not. Who are in it for the money or have > read a few > > > books or done a couple of week-end courses. > > How many such have you come across in your career as herbalist? > > I know _loads_ of grannies who continue the traditions of their > family, and do > > kitchen herbalism for their kids and grandkids. > > I know of quite a lot of herbalifers. I don't think legislation will ever > > touch them ... they're a MLM, they keep low, they go from living room to > > living room. > > I know _no_ herbal weekenders (or book-readers) who are in it for the > money. > > And I believe that the way to educate the public about herbalifers and > > similarly silly MLMs is to, well, _educate_ them. > > The way to deal with grannies who keep their traditions alive is to, > well, > > _learn_ from them. They have a lot to tell ... > > Best, > > Henriette > > -- > > Henriette Kress, AHG Helsinki, Finland > > Henriette's herbal homepage: http://www.henriettesherbal.com > > Uusi kirja: http://www.henriettesherbal.com/fi/kayt-laak.html > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 7, 2011 Report Share Posted March 7, 2011 Hi Therri,western herbalists are an exceptionally ethical bunch, but the cases of mispractice by the Chinese and Ayuverdic practitioners keep propping up, and yet we are lumped together by the public, government and the press (and quack busters). Perhaps you cannot prevent malpractice by doctors but you can bring them to justice - quite a few have been struck off.Anyway, the EU directive is here (only 2 months to go), and if we are not regulated we will not have the access to a lot of our medicines. I would not be happy with that.Best regards > > > > > > I know that we are all discussing this as ethical, professional > herbalists - > > > whether pro or anti SR. But we shouldn't forget that there are many more > > > people out there who are not. Who are in it for the money or have > read a few > > > books or done a couple of week-end courses. > > How many such have you come across in your career as herbalist? > > I know _loads_ of grannies who continue the traditions of their > family, and do > > kitchen herbalism for their kids and grandkids. > > I know of quite a lot of herbalifers. I don't think legislation will ever > > touch them ... they're a MLM, they keep low, they go from living room to > > living room. > > I know _no_ herbal weekenders (or book-readers) who are in it for the > money. > > And I believe that the way to educate the public about herbalifers and > > similarly silly MLMs is to, well, _educate_ them. > > The way to deal with grannies who keep their traditions alive is to, > well, > > _learn_ from them. They have a lot to tell ... > > Best, > > Henriette > > -- > > Henriette Kress, AHG Helsinki, Finland > > Henriette's herbal homepage: http://www.henriettesherbal.com > > Uusi kirja: http://www.henriettesherbal.com/fi/kayt-laak.html > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 7, 2011 Report Share Posted March 7, 2011 Hello , As far as I am aware, it is legally acceptable to charge whatever you like for services and goods, as long as these charges are made clear prior to the contract of sale being agreed. It is unclear to me how SR will prevent these sort of charges being levied. Do you envisage that the proposed SR legislation will include clauses governing the maximum charges herbalists can make? I also do not understand how an individual herbalist’s pricing has any bearing on fitness to practice. Best regards, Tim. From: anna.newton@... Sent: Sunday, March 06, 2011 7:18 PM To: ukherbal-list Subject: Re: Re: Regulation Dear Henrietta,perhaps in Finland it is only nice grannies, but in the UK there are many practitioners who dabble with herbal medicine: I have come across about 6 in my area during the last 5 years. Their prescribing was not very effective (none had any training in herbal medicine, and the patients have come to see me as a result), which perhaps was not dangerous but gives herbs and us bad name - we are then lumped together with those who really do not have a clue. And yes they were out there for the money: one guy charged £150 for a consultation ( " eczema " specialist) plus a similar amount for the medicines.Regards > > I know that we are all discussing this as ethical, professional herbalists - > whether pro or anti SR. But we shouldn't forget that there are many more > people out there who are not. Who are in it for the money or have read a few > books or done a couple of week-end courses. How many such have you come across in your career as herbalist? I know _loads_ of grannies who continue the traditions of their family, and do kitchen herbalism for their kids and grandkids. I know of quite a lot of herbalifers. I don't think legislation will ever touch them ... they're a MLM, they keep low, they go from living room to living room. I know _no_ herbal weekenders (or book-readers) who are in it for the money. And I believe that the way to educate the public about herbalifers and similarly silly MLMs is to, well, _educate_ them. The way to deal with grannies who keep their traditions alive is to, well, _learn_ from them. They have a lot to tell ... Best, Henriette -- Henriette Kress, AHG Helsinki, Finland Henriette's herbal homepage: http://www.henriettesherbal.com Uusi kirja: http://www.henriettesherbal.com/fi/kayt-laak.html Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 7, 2011 Report Share Posted March 7, 2011 Hi , There you go - Western herbalists are OK and others are not? You missed off the smiley I think from that comment - unless you are serious....... If we, as holistic practitioners continue to say, I am OK, you are not - then we are just the same as medics who denigrate alternative medicine in general. Is it herbs and the practice of herbal medicine which is important or little factional groups and subgroups? Regards Gascoigne > > Hi Therri,western herbalists are an exceptionally ethical bunch, but > the cases of mispractice by the Chinese and Ayuverdic practitioners > keep propping up, and yet we are lumped together by the public, > government and the press (and quack busters). Perhaps you cannot > prevent malpractice by doctors but you can bring them to justice - > quite a few have been struck off.Anyway, the EU directive is here > (only 2 months to go), and if we are not regulated we will not have > the access to a lot of our medicines. I would not be happy with > that.Best regards > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I know that we are all discussing this as ethical, professional > > > herbalists - > > > > > > > whether pro or anti SR. But we shouldn't forget that there are > many more > > > > > > > people out there who are not. Who are in it for the money or have > > > read a few > > > > > > > books or done a couple of week-end courses. > > > > > > How many such have you come across in your career as herbalist? > > > > > > I know _loads_ of grannies who continue the traditions of their > > > family, and do > > > > > > kitchen herbalism for their kids and grandkids. > > > > > > I know of quite a lot of herbalifers. I don't think legislation will > ever > > > > > > touch them ... they're a MLM, they keep low, they go from living room to > > > > > > living room. > > > > > > I know _no_ herbal weekenders (or book-readers) who are in it for the > > > money. > > > > > > And I believe that the way to educate the public about herbalifers and > > > > > > similarly silly MLMs is to, well, _educate_ them. > > > > > > The way to deal with grannies who keep their traditions alive is to, > > > well, > > > > > > _learn_ from them. They have a lot to tell ... > > > > > > Best, > > > > > > Henriette > > > > > > -- > > > > > > Henriette Kress, AHG Helsinki, Finland > > > > > > Henriette's herbal homepage: http://www.henriettesherbal.com > > > > > > Uusi kirja: http://www.henriettesherbal.com/fi/kayt-laak.html > > > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 7, 2011 Report Share Posted March 7, 2011 Hi ,you keep misinterpreting what I say - . I think that we are all herbalists and I have great respect for other traditions, but historically in the UK it has been some Chinese (mainly) and some Ayuverdic herbalists that caused problems by prescribing herbal preparations " spiked " with orthodox drugs or heavy metals. These incidents have been invariably interpreted by the press as examples of what ALL herbalists do irrespective of tradition/training etc. That is what I was talking about - the public perception of herbalist (and the governmental bodies) perpetuated by the press.Regards > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I know that we are all discussing this as ethical, professional > > > herbalists - > > > > > > > whether pro or anti SR. But we shouldn't forget that there are > many more > > > > > > > people out there who are not. Who are in it for the money or have > > > read a few > > > > > > > books or done a couple of week-end courses. > > > > > > How many such have you come across in your career as herbalist? > > > > > > I know _loads_ of grannies who continue the traditions of their > > > family, and do > > > > > > kitchen herbalism for their kids and grandkids. > > > > > > I know of quite a lot of herbalifers. I don't think legislation will > ever > > > > > > touch them ... they're a MLM, they keep low, they go from living room to > > > > > > living room. > > > > > > I know _no_ herbal weekenders (or book-readers) who are in it for the > > > money. > > > > > > And I believe that the way to educate the public about herbalifers and > > > > > > similarly silly MLMs is to, well, _educate_ them. > > > > > > The way to deal with grannies who keep their traditions alive is to, > > > well, > > > > > > _learn_ from them. They have a lot to tell ... > > > > > > Best, > > > > > > Henriette > > > > > > -- > > > > > > Henriette Kress, AHG Helsinki, Finland > > > > > > Henriette's herbal homepage: http://www.henriettesherbal.com > > > > > > Uusi kirja: http://www.henriettesherbal.com/fi/kayt-laak.html > > > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 7, 2011 Report Share Posted March 7, 2011 Hi , Yes as a TCM practitioner there are constant warnings about dodgy TCM tablets and I welcome some regulation in this area. However the bar set by THMPD is so high that no TCM products are through. Therefore the only way to continue to use these is via SR where I can commission a special for my patients etc. And re establish supply. Currently anyone can call themselves a practitioner under 12.1 and practice as a Herbalist. This just further illustrates that so form of regulation is needed. Lorraine Lorraine Hodgkinson MNIMH MRCHM HERBS AND HELPERS 6, Butts Fold, Cockermouth, Cumbria, CA13 9HY. UK. Tel: +44 (0) 1900 826392 Mobile: 07761 489838 (O2) www.herbalmedicineuk.com > Hi ,you keep misinterpreting what I say - . I think that we are all herbalists and I have great respect for other traditions, but historically in the UK it has been some Chinese (mainly) and some Ayuverdic herbalists that caused problems by prescribing herbal preparations " spiked " with orthodox drugs or heavy metals. These incidents have been invariably interpreted by the press as examples of what ALL herbalists do irrespective of tradition/training etc. That is what I was talking about - the public perception of herbalist (and the governmental bodies) perpetuated by the press.Regards > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I know that we are all discussing this as ethical, professional > > > > > > > herbalists - > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > whether pro or anti SR. But we shouldn't forget that there are > > > many more > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > people out there who are not. Who are in it for the money or have > > > > > > > read a few > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > books or done a couple of week-end courses. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > How many such have you come across in your career as herbalist? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I know _loads_ of grannies who continue the traditions of their > > > > > > > family, and do > > > > > > > > > > > > > > kitchen herbalism for their kids and grandkids. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I know of quite a lot of herbalifers. I don't think legislation will > > > ever > > > > > > > > > > > > > > touch them ... they're a MLM, they keep low, they go from living room to > > > > > > > > > > > > > > living room. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I know _no_ herbal weekenders (or book-readers) who are in it for the > > > > > > > money. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > And I believe that the way to educate the public about herbalifers and > > > > > > > > > > > > > > similarly silly MLMs is to, well, _educate_ them. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > The way to deal with grannies who keep their traditions alive is to, > > > > > > > well, > > > > > > > > > > > > > > _learn_ from them. They have a lot to tell ... > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Best, > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Henriette > > > > > > > > > > > > > > -- > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Henriette Kress, AHG Helsinki, Finland > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Henriette's herbal homepage: http://www.henriettesherbal.com > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Uusi kirja: http://www.henriettesherbal.com/fi/kayt-laak.html > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 7, 2011 Report Share Posted March 7, 2011 This is a matter of herb quality NOT fitness to practice- there seems a confusion in these discussions, and an inability to separate out the specific issues. Laws already exist to cover matters of quality. the fact that illegally poor quality herbs and preparations get to be dispensed, suggests to me that these existing laws are not being particularly effectively or comprehensively policed. Best regards, Tim. From: anna.newton@... Sent: Monday, March 07, 2011 10:51 PM To: ukherbal-list Subject: Re: Re: Regulation Hi ,you keep misinterpreting what I say - . I think that we are all herbalists and I have great respect for other traditions, but historically in the UK it has been some Chinese (mainly) and some Ayuverdic herbalists that caused problems by prescribing herbal preparations " spiked " with orthodox drugs or heavy metals. These incidents have been invariably interpreted by the press as examples of what ALL herbalists do irrespective of tradition/training etc. That is what I was talking about - the public perception of herbalist (and the governmental bodies) perpetuated by the press.Regards > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I know that we are all discussing this as ethical, professional > > > herbalists - > > > > > > > whether pro or anti SR. But we shouldn't forget that there are > many more > > > > > > > people out there who are not. Who are in it for the money or have > > > read a few > > > > > > > books or done a couple of week-end courses. > > > > > > How many such have you come across in your career as herbalist? > > > > > > I know _loads_ of grannies who continue the traditions of their > > > family, and do > > > > > > kitchen herbalism for their kids and grandkids. > > > > > > I know of quite a lot of herbalifers. I don't think legislation will > ever > > > > > > touch them ... they're a MLM, they keep low, they go from living room to > > > > > > living room. > > > > > > I know _no_ herbal weekenders (or book-readers) who are in it for the > > > money. > > > > > > And I believe that the way to educate the public about herbalifers and > > > > > > similarly silly MLMs is to, well, _educate_ them. > > > > > > The way to deal with grannies who keep their traditions alive is to, > > > well, > > > > > > _learn_ from them. They have a lot to tell ... > > > > > > Best, > > > > > > Henriette > > > > > > -- > > > > > > Henriette Kress, AHG Helsinki, Finland > > > > > > Henriette's herbal homepage: http://www.henriettesherbal.com > > > > > > Uusi kirja: http://www.henriettesherbal.com/fi/kayt-laak.html > > > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 7, 2011 Report Share Posted March 7, 2011 Dear , We seem to be at cross purposes here! You referred, in your first posted message below, posted under the heading of regulation, to a herbalist who was charging in your view excessive fees. Your latest message now refers to poorly trained practitoners. These are two distinctly separate matters. So my original questions remain unanswered; that is, how will SR make any impact on the amount a herbalist charges for services and herbs? Best regards, Tim. From: anna.newton@... Sent: Monday, March 07, 2011 11:20 PM To: ukherbal-list Subject: Re: Re: Regulation Dear Tim,I was not talking about bona fide herbalists but people who have done a weekend course or read a book or two and then treat unsuspecting patients with herbs about which they do not know very much. Please read the original email to which I responded, it will make more sense. There are quack out there, I have met a few, they were not fit to practice in my opinion (nothing to do with the money), but they charged a lot so they were not out there for altruistic reasons. One such individual called herself a " nutritionist " (did not belong to any association), and put one of my patients through some ridiculous diets and worming regimes (with herbs of course), although there was no evidence of him being infested at all. She practised on Harley Street and used to shout at patients (some obviously must have liked it). Another practitioner has done a weekend course in computer allergy testing, and then treated all his patients with Noni juice (he happened to be a Noni juice pyramid selling agent as well). Etc EtcRegards > > I know that we are all discussing this as ethical, professional herbalists - > whether pro or anti SR. But we shouldn't forget that there are many more > people out there who are not. Who are in it for the money or have read a few > books or done a couple of week-end courses. How many such have you come across in your career as herbalist? I know _loads_ of grannies who continue the traditions of their family, and do kitchen herbalism for their kids and grandkids. I know of quite a lot of herbalifers. I don't think legislation will ever touch them ... they're a MLM, they keep low, they go from living room to living room. I know _no_ herbal weekenders (or book-readers) who are in it for the money. And I believe that the way to educate the public about herbalifers and similarly silly MLMs is to, well, _educate_ them. The way to deal with grannies who keep their traditions alive is to, well, _learn_ from them. They have a lot to tell ... Best, Henriette -- Henriette Kress, AHG Helsinki, Finland Henriette's herbal homepage: http://www.henriettesherbal.com Uusi kirja: http://www.henriettesherbal.com/fi/kayt-laak.html Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 8, 2011 Report Share Posted March 8, 2011 Tim Lane wrote: > We seem to be at cross purposes here! You referred, in your first posted > message below, posted under the heading of regulation, to a herbalist who > was charging in your view excessive > fees. Your latest message now refers to poorly trained practitoners. These > are two distinctly separate matters. So my original questions remain > unanswered; that is, how will SR make any impact on the amount a herbalist > charges for services and herbs? If you're simply outraged that somebody manages to charge 150 whatnots a visit on a rather minimal education, where you paid hard cash for a solid standing -- well, _that_ has nothing to do with practitioner quality either, that's pure marketing. Make a few telly series, be charming enough, and you can charge the same ... .... not that I know any herbalists who'd _want_ to, but shrug. H. -- Henriette Kress, AHG Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Helsinki, Finland Henriette's herbal homepage: Â http://www.henriettesherbal.com Uusi kirja: http://www.henriettesherbal.com/fi/kayt-laak.html Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 8, 2011 Report Share Posted March 8, 2011 Dear , It's good to see it clearly stated which herbs we will continue to be able to use and those we will no longer be able to access post the introduction of the Traditional Herbal Medicine Products Directive, I often hear it said that western herbalists will not be able to access any herbs at all. It is by choice that I do not buy in any industrially produced or licensed preparations, so I wouldn't know a MediHerb tablet if it hit me on the head. I belong to a group of traditional western herbalists. We grow and make all our own tinctures and preparations. The few that we cannot produce ourselves, we buy from a small number of trusted suppliers whose practice fits within our ethos. It is thanks to section 12(1) of the Medicines Act that we are able to do this. If the aim of SR is to protect not only the title but the function of a herbalist then the Act will also need to be changed and if this goes as planned then only regulated herbalists will have access to herbs. This takes away my patients choice and my practice. Reforming section 12(1) is not necessary to comply with the Traditional Herbal Medicine Products Directive. SR herbalists can enjoy all the trappings of regulation, including a protected title and access to herbs, without changing section 12(1). Leaving section 12(1) in it's current form would enable non regulated, independent herbalists to continue practicing. Access to herbs would not be restricted to regulated herbalists. There are also potentially serious implications for SR herbalists should the Act be changed, for more info please follow this link: http://theherbarium.wordpress.com/category/5-the-law-herbal-medicine/h-we-all-ne\ ed-to-keep-section-121-unchanged/ Regards, Therri From: anna.newton@... Sent: Monday, March 07, 2011 11:35 PM To: ukherbal-list Subject: Re: Re: Regulation Hi Therri,Simply not true, you will not be able to access " industrially " produced preparations like tablets (bye, bye MediHerb tablets), capsules, or complex preparation involving many ingredients (unless they are licensed). Most Chinese herbal formulas in tablet form will be illegal to dispense and it will be illegal for the producers to sell such products. What will remain will be tinctures and dry herbs, but of course you will be able to make your own tablets if you wished.Best wishes > > > > > > I know that we are all discussing this as ethical, professional > herbalists - > > > whether pro or anti SR. But we shouldn't forget that there are many more > > > people out there who are not. Who are in it for the money or have > read a few > > > books or done a couple of week-end courses. > > How many such have you come across in your career as herbalist? > > I know _loads_ of grannies who continue the traditions of their > family, and do > > kitchen herbalism for their kids and grandkids. > > I know of quite a lot of herbalifers. I don't think legislation will ever > > touch them ... they're a MLM, they keep low, they go from living room to > > living room. > > I know _no_ herbal weekenders (or book-readers) who are in it for the > money. > > And I believe that the way to educate the public about herbalifers and > > similarly silly MLMs is to, well, _educate_ them. > > The way to deal with grannies who keep their traditions alive is to, > well, > > _learn_ from them. They have a lot to tell ... > > Best, > > Henriette > > -- > > Henriette Kress, AHG Helsinki, Finland > > Henriette's herbal homepage: http://www.henriettesherbal.com > > Uusi kirja: http://www.henriettesherbal.com/fi/kayt-laak.html > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 8, 2011 Report Share Posted March 8, 2011 Dear Lorraine, when i first started ordering from herb suppliers i was required to show my qualification (for Sch3 herbs). It's a relatively easy system that regulates itself, there are not in fact that many practising herbalists (Western herbalists) to really warrant state regulation. Is there really any evidence that 'unqualified' herbalists are a problem? I'd be very interested to see some actual numbers on this. Let's not forget that there are occasionally cases of Doctors who turn out not to be qualified at all! Frauds & phoneys always find a way through the net if they are determined enough. From contact with TCM herbalists & suppliers i have seen with my own eyes that there is manifestly a problem, most have no traceablilty AT ALL. Part of the problem seems to be that a large proportion of these compounds (tablets as well as creams etc) are imported from China and the manufacturers there don't appear to have much in the way of traceability & quality control. I'd suggest that the TCM practitioners put pressure on their suppliers to get their house in order. I think we could with some justification say that this should have been taken care of a long time ago by the TCM herbalists/suppliers/PA's. All the best & isn't it lovely now the sun's out? Nathalie > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I know that we are all discussing this as ethical, professional > > > > > > > > > > > herbalists - > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > whether pro or anti SR. But we shouldn't forget that there are > > > > > many more > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > people out there who are not. Who are in it for the money or have > > > > > > > > > > > read a few > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > books or done a couple of week-end courses. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > How many such have you come across in your career as herbalist? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I know _loads_ of grannies who continue the traditions of their > > > > > > > > > > > family, and do > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > kitchen herbalism for their kids and grandkids. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I know of quite a lot of herbalifers. I don't think legislation will > > > > > ever > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > touch them ... they're a MLM, they keep low, they go from living room to > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > living room. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I know _no_ herbal weekenders (or book-readers) who are in it for the > > > > > > > > > > > money. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > And I believe that the way to educate the public about herbalifers and > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > similarly silly MLMs is to, well, _educate_ them. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > The way to deal with grannies who keep their traditions alive is to, > > > > > > > > > > > well, > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > _learn_ from them. They have a lot to tell ... > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Best, > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Henriette > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > -- > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Henriette Kress, AHG Helsinki, Finland > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Henriette's herbal homepage: http://www.henriettesherbal.com > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Uusi kirja: http://www.henriettesherbal.com/fi/kayt-laak.html > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 8, 2011 Report Share Posted March 8, 2011 Hi Lorraine,this is precisely the point I was trying to get across to Tim. Thanks > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I know that we are all discussing this as ethical, professional > > > > > > > herbalists - > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > whether pro or anti SR. But we shouldn't forget that there are > > > many more > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > people out there who are not. Who are in it for the money or have > > > > > > > read a few > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > books or done a couple of week-end courses. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > How many such have you come across in your career as herbalist? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I know _loads_ of grannies who continue the traditions of their > > > > > > > family, and do > > > > > > > > > > > > > > kitchen herbalism for their kids and grandkids. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I know of quite a lot of herbalifers. I don't think legislation will > > > ever > > > > > > > > > > > > > > touch them ... they're a MLM, they keep low, they go from living room to > > > > > > > > > > > > > > living room. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I know _no_ herbal weekenders (or book-readers) who are in it for the > > > > > > > money. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > And I believe that the way to educate the public about herbalifers and > > > > > > > > > > > > > > similarly silly MLMs is to, well, _educate_ them. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > The way to deal with grannies who keep their traditions alive is to, > > > > > > > well, > > > > > > > > > > > > > > _learn_ from them. They have a lot to tell ... > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Best, > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Henriette > > > > > > > > > > > > > > -- > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Henriette Kress, AHG Helsinki, Finland > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Henriette's herbal homepage: http://www.henriettesherbal.com > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Uusi kirja: http://www.henriettesherbal.com/fi/kayt-laak.html > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 8, 2011 Report Share Posted March 8, 2011 Hello , Can you clarify which of these two points you were trying to convey- that in para 1 or that in para 2 in Lorraine’s message below? Best regards, Tim. From: anna.newton@... Sent: Tuesday, March 08, 2011 1:37 PM To: ukherbal-list Subject: Re: Re: Regulation Hi Lorraine,this is precisely the point I was trying to get across to Tim. Thanks > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I know that we are all discussing this as ethical, professional > > > > > > > herbalists - > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > whether pro or anti SR. But we shouldn't forget that there are > > > many more > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > people out there who are not. Who are in it for the money or have > > > > > > > read a few > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > books or done a couple of week-end courses. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > How many such have you come across in your career as herbalist? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I know _loads_ of grannies who continue the traditions of their > > > > > > > family, and do > > > > > > > > > > > > > > kitchen herbalism for their kids and grandkids. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I know of quite a lot of herbalifers. I don't think legislation will > > > ever > > > > > > > > > > > > > > touch them ... they're a MLM, they keep low, they go from living room to > > > > > > > > > > > > > > living room. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I know _no_ herbal weekenders (or book-readers) who are in it for the > > > > > > > money. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > And I believe that the way to educate the public about herbalifers and > > > > > > > > > > > > > > similarly silly MLMs is to, well, _educate_ them. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > The way to deal with grannies who keep their traditions alive is to, > > > > > > > well, > > > > > > > > > > > > > > _learn_ from them. They have a lot to tell ... > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Best, > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Henriette > > > > > > > > > > > > > > -- > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Henriette Kress, AHG Helsinki, Finland > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Henriette's herbal homepage: http://www.henriettesherbal.com > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Uusi kirja: http://www.henriettesherbal.com/fi/kayt-laak.html > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 8, 2011 Report Share Posted March 8, 2011 Yes, Henrietta, I am outraged that somebody with no qualifications charges a lot and sells dodgy herbal supplements for vast amount of money. I am outraged that unsuspecting patients are fooled by such individuals. And I am outraged that we are lumped together with such individuals by press. Presumably you are happy with all that.Also, I never said that the charges reflect the competence. I said that I have come across quacks and that some charged a lot of money - that was all.  I never said they were herbalists, although they prescribed herbs. Cheers > We seem to be at cross purposes here! You referred, in your first posted > message below, posted under the heading of regulation, to a herbalist who > was charging in your view excessive > fees. Your latest message now refers to poorly trained practitoners. These > are two distinctly separate matters. So my original questions remain > unanswered; that is, how will SR make any impact on the amount a herbalist > charges for services and herbs? If you're simply outraged that somebody manages to charge 150 whatnots a visit on a rather minimal education, where you paid hard cash for a solid standing -- well, _that_ has nothing to do with practitioner quality either, that's pure marketing. Make a few telly series, be charming enough, and you can charge the same ... .... not that I know any herbalists who'd _want_ to, but shrug. H. -- Henriette Kress, AHG             Helsinki, Finland Henriette's herbal homepage:  http://www.henriettesherbal.com Uusi kirja: http://www.henriettesherbal.com/fi/kayt-laak.html Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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