Re: Control vs. riding the wave

[mailto:ACT_for_the_Public ] On Behalf Of hbbr

Sent: Monday, 25 October 2010 2:44 AM

To: ACT for the Public

Subject: Re: Control vs. riding the wave

Hi ,

It's funny,

but when you give up needing/trying to be in control, you actually become more

in control! I think we all need to feel some semblance of control, and

that's OK, I think, as long as you hold it lightly. So be kind to

yourself and treasure those moments of being fully present! You can build

on that, for sure.

Helena

Control vs. riding the wave

I had another

moment of success last night. I must admit that I have not been practicing much

lately. I drove to the grocery store and felt my old nervousness (I had a panic

attack in that store the last time I was there). As I was driving, I told

myself that I was choosing to go to the store, and that I could choose to leave

anytime I wanted (something I learned from CBT for panic disorder). Something

shifted, and I felt more in control. I did not panic and paid more attention to

what I was doing and what was around me (as in, Notice 5 things).

My life the past couple months has felt out of control. The demons on the boat

(I like that analogy) were controlling my life. My panic felt like an external

entity, like a monster that was tormenting me daily.

For me, learned helplessness seems to be part of it. I learned that I was

helpless in the face of these demons; I felt I could not cope with panic or

with life.

I have had moments of being fully present with my pain and anxiety (I used the

healing hand at times). Sometimes it helped and sometimes it didn't. I know

that is to be expected. However, I feel I need to have some semblance of

control in order to function and move towards a productive life again. This may

not be in alignment with ACT principles, but this is where I am right now.

~ lisa

October 24, 2010

Do we have control over purely physical actions or can we control mental actions as well?Mental variables are thoughts and feelings. If we attempt to control mental actions, how do we not fall into the "happiness trap" by controlling feelings and thoughts?If we can only control physical actions, how about people with hardly any physical control like Hawkings?Powered by Telkomsel BlackBerryÂ®Sender: ACT_for_the_Public Date: Mon, 25 Oct 2010 06:46:41 +0800To: <ACT_for_the_Public >ReplyTo: ACT_for_the_Public Subject: RE: Control vs. riding the wave I think folks sometimes forget there is a huge amount of controlin ACT. ACT asks you to focus your time and energy on what you have mostcontrol over in life Â â€“ i.e. your actions. The more you focus on what is inyour control â€“ your actions - Â the greater your â€˜sense of self-controlâ€™. And ofcourse, the more you focus on what is largely out of your control Â â€“ most of yourthoughts and feelings â€“ the more â€˜out-of-control you feel. All the best,Cheers, Russ www.actmindfully.com.auwww.thehappinesstrap.com From: ACT_for_the_Public [mailto:ACT_for_the_Public ] On Behalf Of hbbrSent: Monday, 25 October 2010 2:44 AMTo: ACT for the PublicSubject: Re: Control vs. riding the wave Hi , It's funny,but when you give up needing/trying to be in control, you actually become morein control! I think we all need to feel some semblance of control, andthat's OK, I think, as long as you hold it lightly. So be kind toyourself and treasure those moments of being fully present! You can buildon that, for sure. Helena Control vs. riding the wave I had anothermoment of success last night. I must admit that I have not been practicing muchlately. I drove to the grocery store and felt my old nervousness (I had a panicattack in that store the last time I was there). As I was driving, I toldmyself that I was choosing to go to the store, and that I could choose to leaveanytime I wanted (something I learned from CBT for panic disorder). Somethingshifted, and I felt more in control. I did not panic and paid more attention towhat I was doing and what was around me (as in, Notice 5 things).My life the past couple months has felt out of control. The demons on the boat(I like that analogy) were controlling my life. My panic felt like an externalentity, like a monster that was tormenting me daily.For me, learned helplessness seems to be part of it. I learned that I washelpless in the face of these demons; I felt I could not cope with panic orwith life.I have had moments of being fully present with my pain and anxiety (I used thehealing hand at times). Sometimes it helped and sometimes it didn't. I knowthat is to be expected. However, I feel I need to have some semblance ofcontrol in order to function and move towards a productive life again. This maynot be in alignment with ACT principles, but this is where I am right now.~ lisa

October 24, 2010

Yes, we do have a fair degree of control over our â€˜mental

actionsâ€™; another name for this is â€˜thinkingâ€™. But we have nowhere near as much

control over our thinking as most of us would like to have. If I ask you to

think about your summer holidays for the next half an hour, you can do that. The

point is, as you do so, lots of irrelevant thoughts will automatically â€˜pop upâ€™,

out of your conscious control. Consciously clarifying your values and using

them to set goals goals would be an example of controlling your â€˜mental actionâ€™

or â€˜thinkingâ€™. And notice how very commonly, as you start doing such work, all

sorts of unwanted thoughts just pop up, automatically - out of your conscious control

(e.g. this is too hard; I canâ€™t do it; are these my real values?)

ACT only suggests you relinquish control of thoughts under very

specific circumstances - when:

a)

Control is impossible, or

Control is possible, but the control strategies get in the way

of living a rich full and meaningful life

It is that creates The Happiness Trap.

Hope this helps,

Cheers,

Russ

[mailto:ACT_for_the_Public ] On Behalf Of metta.freedom@...

Sent: Monday, 25 October 2010 9:00 AM

To: ACT_for_the_Public

Subject: Re: Control vs. riding the wave

Do we have control over purely physical actions or can we control mental

actions as well?

Mental variables are thoughts and feelings. If we attempt to control mental

actions, how do we not fall into the " happiness trap " by controlling

feelings and thoughts?

If we can only control physical actions, how about people with hardly any

physical control like Hawkings?

Powered by Telkomsel BlackBerryÂ®

From: " Russ "

Sender: ACT_for_the_Public

Date: Mon, 25 Oct 2010 06:46:41 +0800

To: <ACT_for_the_Public >

ReplyTo: ACT_for_the_Public

Subject: RE: Control vs. riding

the wave

I think folks sometimes forget there is

a huge amount of control in ACT. ACT asks you to focus your time and energy on

what you have most control over in life â€“ i.e. your actions. The more you

focus on what is in your control â€“ your actions - the greater your â€˜sense

of self-controlâ€™. And of course, the more you focus on what is largely out of

your control â€“ most of your thoughts and feelings â€“ the more

â€˜out-of-control you feel.

All the best,

Cheers,

Russ

[mailto:ACT_for_the_Public ] On Behalf Of hbbr

Sent: Monday, 25 October 2010 2:44 AM

To: ACT for the Public

Subject: Re: Control vs. riding the wave

Hi ,

It's funny, but when you give up needing/trying

to be in control, you actually become more in control! I think we all

need to feel some semblance of control, and that's OK, I think, as long as

you hold it lightly. So be kind to yourself and treasure those moments of

being fully present! You can build on that, for sure.

Helena

Control vs. riding the wave

I had another moment of success last night. I

must admit that I have not been practicing much lately. I drove to the grocery

store and felt my old nervousness (I had a panic attack in that store the last

time I was there). As I was driving, I told myself that I was choosing to go to

the store, and that I could choose to leave anytime I wanted (something I

learned from CBT for panic disorder). Something shifted, and I felt more in control.

I did not panic and paid more attention to what I was doing and what was around

me (as in, Notice 5 things).

My life the past couple months has felt out of control. The demons on the boat

(I like that analogy) were controlling my life. My panic felt like an external

entity, like a monster that was tormenting me daily.

For me, learned helplessness seems to be part of it. I learned that I was

helpless in the face of these demons; I felt I could not cope with panic or

with life.

I have had moments of being fully present with my pain and anxiety (I used the

healing hand at times). Sometimes it helped and sometimes it didn't. I know

that is to be expected. However, I feel I need to have some semblance of

control in order to function and move towards a productive life again. This may

not be in alignment with ACT principles, but this is where I am right now.

~ lisa

October 24, 2010

Hi ,

Thanks for this.

Your post has helped me pause and consider what my experience is, as I have had

thoughts that I suffer from what is commonly called

" Learned Helplessness " . I'm not so sure about that label anymore,

(or rather how helpful it is), but I sure know I do value finding my voice and I

value finding ways to stand with it as whole and complete--with no apology,

reason or fused attachment to outcome.

And I was thinking too that maybe there is a false choice in your title here,

that our experiences need not boil down to an either/or thing (control vs.

riding the wave.)

As I read your experience, sounds like you, reminded your mind that you,

are the chooser with many choices. You stood with your self, which is a

very compassionate gesture you seem to value.

You hovered over the choice point and at least for me, that's just an integral

part of riding the wave, riding the energy-- without adding or subtracting to

it, all the while you remained staying present and focused on your committed

goal of going out for a ride to the grocery store.

And in so doing, you felt that lovely semblance of control. You really felt in

the driver's seat. And you were!

I'm no expert by any means, but it sure seems ACT is about that liberation, not

so much about seeking or securing control per se.

There does seem to appear an increased sense of control that correlates with

practicing and living your values.

ACT is mostly about that last line in the Serenity Prayer, " The wisdom to know

the difference " .

In my experience, that's where the real 'control' or emancipation

lies--especially the wisdom to remain open to what life is telling me to value

and what it's telling me to let fall away. Now, and now again.

And that wisdom it seems (as I'm only now getting) is found by practice,

practice, practice and baby steps as mentioned in his earlier posts.

And that's just what you did last night, so congratulations to you and thanks

again for sharing your practice experience.

with heart,

Terry

>

> I had another moment of success last night. I must admit that I have not

> been practicing much lately. I drove to the grocery store and felt my old

> nervousness (I had a panic attack in that store the last time I was there).

> As I was driving, I told myself that I was choosing to go to the store, and

> that I could choose to leave anytime I wanted (something I learned from CBT

> for panic disorder). Something shifted, and I felt more in control. I did

> not panic and paid more attention to what I was doing and what was around me

> (as in, Notice 5 things).

>

> My life the past couple months has felt out of control. The demons on the

> boat (I like that analogy) were controlling my life. My panic felt like an

> external entity, like a monster that was tormenting me daily.

>

> For me, learned helplessness seems to be part of it. I learned that I was

> helpless in the face of these demons; I felt I could not cope with panic or

> with life.

>

> I have had moments of being fully present with my pain and anxiety (I used

> the healing hand at times). Sometimes it helped and sometimes it didn't. I

> know that is to be expected. However, I feel I need to have some semblance

> of control in order to function and move towards a productive life again.

> This may not be in alignment with ACT principles, but this is where I am

> right now.

>

> ~ lisa

>

October 25, 2010

Speaking about the Serenity Prayer, I used to have trouble understanding it. When I was struggling with depression, which seemed to stem from horrible stuff that happened years ago, well-meaning people would quote the prayer and advise me that I had no power to change the past and I should somehow acquire the "wisdom to know the difference" and let go--and serenity would ensue. Ahhhh, that's so simple, I would think. I must be an idiot for not being able to let this go. It took me years to understand that it wasn't the event (or the memory) that I had to let go of--it was my thoughts about the event--my mind telling me I deserved the abuse because I was unworthy, etc. I think the Serenity Prayer is often badly misinterpreted for that reason. I now see that I wasn't actually an idiot. I was discerning enough to realize that the struggle was with my thoughts and THAT was the source of my pain, not the event itself. When ACT came into my life, it all made perfect sense and came together for me. I now view the Serenity Prayer in an entirely different way, and how it was meant to be understood, I think.

Helena

Re: Control vs. riding the wave

ACT is mostly about that last line in the Serenity Prayer, "The wisdom to know the difference".In my experience, that's where the real 'control' or emancipation lies--especially the wisdom to remain open to what life is telling me to value and what it's telling me to let fall away. Now, and now again. And that wisdom it seems (as I'm only now getting) is found by practice, practice, practice and baby steps as mentioned in his earlier posts.

October 25, 2010

Helena,I get what you're saying. I suffer from depression too, and for a long time it was about stuff that happened growing up. I too could not let go (I felt so angry) ... my sister had moved on but I couldn't (or wouldn't). However, I am starting to see that it's my thoughts and feelings about those long ago events (in my case, emotional neglect rather than abuse) that keep me stuck in the past. I have not been able to fully accept how I was raised (in fact, I feel cheated). It's a process and I'm not there yet. But ACT (and mindfulness more generally) has started to awaken in me a desire to learn to accept, even if I haven't been able to embrace that yet. Tara Brach's writings started me on that road and although I still vacillate between giving into strong emotions that demand expression (ah, those angry demons) and a desire to make room for those feelings, I feel I am on the right track. My patience varies day to day; giving up (this new path) feels so easy at times.

~ lisa

Speaking about the Serenity Prayer, I used to have trouble understanding it. When I was struggling with depression, which seemed to stem from horrible stuff that happened years ago, well-meaning people would quote the prayer and advise me that I had no power to change the past and I should somehow acquire the " wisdom to know the difference " and let go--and serenity would ensue. Ahhhh, that's so simple, I would think. I must be an idiot for not being able to let this go. It took me years to understand that it wasn't the event (or the memory) that I had to let go of--it was my thoughts about the event--my mind telling me I deserved the abuse because I was unworthy, etc. I think the Serenity Prayer is often badly misinterpreted for that reason. I now see that I wasn't actually an idiot. I was discerning enough to realize that the struggle was with my thoughts and THAT was the source of my pain, not the event itself. When ACT came into my life, it all made perfect sense and came together for me. I now view the Serenity Prayer in an entirely different way, and how it was meant to be understood, I think.

Helena

October 25, 2010

Thanks, Terry. I agree that " learned helplessness " is a label that is not helpful. I wasn't sure how else to express it.True that it may be a false dichotomy. I felt that riding the wave required giving up control (or at least, my sense of control).

Choices and willingness have deeper meaning for me now. Before, they were just words to me (or that didn't apply to my life of " I must " ; " I have to " ; " I'm obligated to... " ). I was full of resistance and resentment towards co-workers, my boss, my significant others, my family ~ so much negative energy. It is quite freeing to know that I have a choice, and that life is about choices (okay, my aunt would always tell me the latter but it sounded like an empty platitude). I can choose in each moment of my life (my mantra: I am choosing in this moment). I had to realize this for myself. (I know that ACT is about doing, not about realizations, but the more I act, the more I realize these fundamental truths.)

I went to the store again today ... felt worse than Saturday and didn't want to go. But I did. Yes, I started to hyperventilate again ... I had that sense of breathlessness that I try to avoid. I did not run away (in my case, driving home as fast as possible). I had pockets of high anxiety interspersed with pockets of " openness. " I felt good and bad simultaneously. So, I keep noticing that my progress is not linear ... it's different every time. I wish it was linear but am learning to accept that it is not ... that non-linear progress (a few steps forward, a step or two back) is still progress.

~ lisa

Hi ,

Thanks for this.

Your post has helped me pause and consider what my experience is, as I have had thoughts that I suffer from what is commonly called

" Learned Helplessness " . I'm not so sure about that label anymore,

(or rather how helpful it is), but I sure know I do value finding my voice and I value finding ways to stand with it as whole and complete--with no apology, reason or fused attachment to outcome.

And I was thinking too that maybe there is a false choice in your title here, that our experiences need not boil down to an either/or thing (control vs. riding the wave.)

As I read your experience, sounds like you, reminded your mind that you, are the chooser with many choices. You stood with your self, which is a very compassionate gesture you seem to value.

You hovered over the choice point and at least for me, that's just an integral part of riding the wave, riding the energy-- without adding or subtracting to it, all the while you remained staying present and focused on your committed goal of going out for a ride to the grocery store.

And in so doing, you felt that lovely semblance of control. You really felt in the driver's seat. And you were!

I'm no expert by any means, but it sure seems ACT is about that liberation, not so much about seeking or securing control per se.

There does seem to appear an increased sense of control that correlates with practicing and living your values.

ACT is mostly about that last line in the Serenity Prayer, " The wisdom to know the difference " .

In my experience, that's where the real 'control' or emancipation lies--especially the wisdom to remain open to what life is telling me to value and what it's telling me to let fall away. Now, and now again.

And that wisdom it seems (as I'm only now getting) is found by practice, practice, practice and baby steps as mentioned in his earlier posts.

And that's just what you did last night, so congratulations to you and thanks again for sharing your practice experience.

with heart,

Terry

>

> I had another moment of success last night. I must admit that I have not

> been practicing much lately. I drove to the grocery store and felt my old

> nervousness (I had a panic attack in that store the last time I was there).

> As I was driving, I told myself that I was choosing to go to the store, and

> that I could choose to leave anytime I wanted (something I learned from CBT

> for panic disorder). Something shifted, and I felt more in control. I did

> not panic and paid more attention to what I was doing and what was around me

> (as in, Notice 5 things).

>

> My life the past couple months has felt out of control. The demons on the

> boat (I like that analogy) were controlling my life. My panic felt like an

> external entity, like a monster that was tormenting me daily.

>

> For me, learned helplessness seems to be part of it. I learned that I was

> helpless in the face of these demons; I felt I could not cope with panic or

> with life.

>

> I have had moments of being fully present with my pain and anxiety (I used

> the healing hand at times). Sometimes it helped and sometimes it didn't. I

> know that is to be expected. However, I feel I need to have some semblance

> of control in order to function and move towards a productive life again.

> This may not be in alignment with ACT principles, but this is where I am

> right now.

>

> ~ lisa

>

October 25, 2010

I love your last line!! I think that is so true. I think all of our progress is

nonlinear!1 But i love the way you worded that!

> > >

> > > I had another moment of success last night. I must admit that I have not

> > > been practicing much lately. I drove to the grocery store and felt my old

> > > nervousness (I had a panic attack in that store the last time I was

> > there).

> > > As I was driving, I told myself that I was choosing to go to the store,

> > and

> > > that I could choose to leave anytime I wanted (something I learned from

> > CBT

> > > for panic disorder). Something shifted, and I felt more in control. I did

> > > not panic and paid more attention to what I was doing and what was around

> > me

> > > (as in, Notice 5 things).

> > >

> > > My life the past couple months has felt out of control. The demons on the

> > > boat (I like that analogy) were controlling my life. My panic felt like

> > an

> > > external entity, like a monster that was tormenting me daily.

> > >

> > > For me, learned helplessness seems to be part of it. I learned that I was

> > > helpless in the face of these demons; I felt I could not cope with panic

> > or

> > > with life.

> > >

> > > I have had moments of being fully present with my pain and anxiety (I

> > used

> > > the healing hand at times). Sometimes it helped and sometimes it didn't.

> > I

> > > know that is to be expected. However, I feel I need to have some

> > semblance

> > > of control in order to function and move towards a productive life again.

> > > This may not be in alignment with ACT principles, but this is where I am

> > > right now.

> > >

> > > ~ lisa

> > >

> >

>

October 26, 2010

A lot of what you say resonates for me too. Congrats on going out

to the store a second time despite not wanting to and wading through all that

discomfort. I'm right there in the thick of that with you,

I'm rooting for you!

For me now this relinquishing control is also about letting go of my attachment

to outcome as I started to say.. Big time drainer, my fusion with the outcome,

all those expectations for specific

results.

I have a sibling who hasn't contacted me for a while and I am deeply

hurt. I grappled with whether or not to attempt to contact her

(it was 'her turn' so to speak), worried if that would appear too pathetic or

needy. What would she think? Would it work? Will contacting her get me the

results I expect?

I go ahead and make the gesture and reach out and let her know how much I miss

her. I make myself vulnerable. Chances are 50%-50% she'll contact me. All of

this is out of my control. And I watch my mind have a field day with this, how

I keep checking my messages to see if she's contacted me..as though I can't

breathe until she does..

And meanwhile everything else stops around me. All that matters is I hear from

her. And all the energy draining out of me and then suddenly a small wise

voice, tells me to stop, to breathe. I take a moment to breathe. All is well.

Breathe again, deeper. Better.

I realize that reached out it for NO reason other than I love her and want to

stay connected. So I do it to stand with my values. It may be that she doesn't

contact me. It's happened before. She come and goes..It may be that I may need

to really allow myself more time with the longing for a sister I wanted and

don't have (allow my sadness to come up more fully as part of my acceptance

work. More time with accepting that she isn't the sibling I had hope she'd be

and have that be really O.K. I mean REALLY O.K. Cause I have a life to live here

and the clock is ticking and this is just the kind of thing that I have allowed

to stop me again and again.

And I see with regard to what I do control, I still get to choose what to take

away from this. Do I go with the " She hates me, I'm a loser " theme..or do I sit

with my longing and notice that I stood with my value and that's all that

matters? I don't need to beat myself up or abandon all my caring because

someone who I love dearly didn't care back in the way my mind wanted

(insisted!). I mean, who knows what's going on with her? Could be any one of a

million things that have nothing to do with me. Now maybe there is a bit more

room for compassion-- for me, for her, for all of us.

And here I am. So what now? With all this want...what to do? Throw in the towel?

Not on my watch, kiddo. No-way, no-how.

This too shall pass. Life goes on. And I'm not going out with a tombstone saying

" She really wished things were other than they were " .

Thanks for listening to where I'm at. Thanks to all for creating this safe place

to do so.

Terry

> > >

> > > I had another moment of success last night. I must admit that I have not

> > > been practicing much lately. I drove to the grocery store and felt my old

> > > nervousness (I had a panic attack in that store the last time I was

> > there).

> > > As I was driving, I told myself that I was choosing to go to the store,

> > and

> > > that I could choose to leave anytime I wanted (something I learned from

> > CBT

> > > for panic disorder). Something shifted, and I felt more in control. I did

> > > not panic and paid more attention to what I was doing and what was around

> > me

> > > (as in, Notice 5 things).

> > >

> > > My life the past couple months has felt out of control. The demons on the

> > > boat (I like that analogy) were controlling my life. My panic felt like

> > an

> > > external entity, like a monster that was tormenting me daily.

> > >

> > > For me, learned helplessness seems to be part of it. I learned that I was

> > > helpless in the face of these demons; I felt I could not cope with panic

> > or

> > > with life.

> > >

> > > I have had moments of being fully present with my pain and anxiety (I

> > used

> > > the healing hand at times). Sometimes it helped and sometimes it didn't.

> > I

> > > know that is to be expected. However, I feel I need to have some

> > semblance

> > > of control in order to function and move towards a productive life again.

> > > This may not be in alignment with ACT principles, but this is where I am

> > > right now.

> > >

> > > ~ lisa

> > >

> >

>

October 26, 2010

Wow!! You were really articulate in that post!! I struggle a lot with the

expected outcomes thing. It really helped me to hear your perspective! I think

that is what stresses me so about my teaching. There is really no way for me to

control how those children are going to respond to me, yet my mind gives me the

" super teacher " expected outcome thing such as " if you are doing a good job you

should get such and such outcome " . I do realize as the ACT books have said

before, the reason all of this bothers me so is because I do care about the

students and feel such a tremendous responsibility for their growth and

development. I am trying to add more compassion for myself and them as I realize

there could be many reasons why they respond the way they do, not just that

there is something wrong with me or the way I am doing things. I think I need to

add more compassion towards myself when the anxiety shows up. i tend to think a

" good teacher " wouldn't let this bother them ,but my ACT knowledge is starting

to open the accepting door. It is hard to feel good about what I am doing when I

am not successful with a student. I don't like feeling like I am on a roller

coaster, ok about myself as long as I am successful with a child, but down on

myself when I am not successful. Any ideas anyone?

> > > >

> > > > I had another moment of success last night. I must admit that I have not

> > > > been practicing much lately. I drove to the grocery store and felt my

old

> > > > nervousness (I had a panic attack in that store the last time I was

> > > there).

> > > > As I was driving, I told myself that I was choosing to go to the store,

> > > and

> > > > that I could choose to leave anytime I wanted (something I learned from

> > > CBT

> > > > for panic disorder). Something shifted, and I felt more in control. I

did

> > > > not panic and paid more attention to what I was doing and what was

around

> > > me

> > > > (as in, Notice 5 things).

> > > >

> > > > My life the past couple months has felt out of control. The demons on

the

> > > > boat (I like that analogy) were controlling my life. My panic felt like

> > > an

> > > > external entity, like a monster that was tormenting me daily.

> > > >

> > > > For me, learned helplessness seems to be part of it. I learned that I

was

> > > > helpless in the face of these demons; I felt I could not cope with panic

> > > or

> > > > with life.

> > > >

> > > > I have had moments of being fully present with my pain and anxiety (I

> > > used

> > > > the healing hand at times). Sometimes it helped and sometimes it didn't.

> > > I

> > > > know that is to be expected. However, I feel I need to have some

> > > semblance

> > > > of control in order to function and move towards a productive life

again.

> > > > This may not be in alignment with ACT principles, but this is where I am

> > > > right now.

> > > >

> > > > ~ lisa

> > > >

> > >

> >

>

October 27, 2010

Yes, , I know whereof you speak; actually, we were cheated. Just about everyone has been cheated in one way or another since no parents are perfect, but I have a special understanding for those of us who didn't feel loved or protected as children; there is nothing more damaging to the psyche, IMO. It can take decades to undo a few year's damage from childhood, but as long as we are making progress, it's OK. You seem to be making good progress and are on the right path, as am I. ACT is the best thing I have found to help with my particular issues. We are not alone, and we will stay the course : )Helena

Re: Re: Control vs. riding the wave

Helena,I get what you're saying. I suffer from depression too, and for a long time it was about stuff that happened growing up. I too could not let go (I felt so angry) ... my sister had moved on but I couldn't (or wouldn't). However, I am starting to see that it's my thoughts and feelings about those long ago events (in my case, emotional neglect rather than abuse) that keep me stuck in the past. I have not been able to fully accept how I was raised (in fact, I feel cheated). It's a process and I'm not there yet. But ACT (and mindfulness more generally) has started to awaken in me a desire to learn to accept, even if I haven't been able to embrace that yet. Tara Brach's writings started me on that road and although I still vacillate between giving into strong emotions that demand expression (ah, those angry demons) and a desire to make room for those feelings, I feel I am on the right track. My patience varies day to day; giving up (this new path) feels so easy at times.~ lisa

Speaking about the Serenity Prayer, I used to have trouble understanding it. When I was struggling with depression, which seemed to stem from horrible stuff that happened years ago, well-meaning people would quote the prayer and advise me that I had no power to change the past and I should somehow acquire the "wisdom to know the difference" and let go--and serenity would ensue. Ahhhh, that's so simple, I would think. I must be an idiot for not being able to let this go. It took me years to understand that it wasn't the event (or the memory) that I had to let go of--it was my thoughts about the event--my mind telling me I deserved the abuse because I was unworthy, etc. I think the Serenity Prayer is often badly misinterpreted for that reason. I now see that I wasn't actually an idiot. I was discerning enough to realize that the struggle was with my thoughts and THAT was the source of my pain, not the event itself. When ACT came into my life, it all made perfect sense and came together for me. I now view the Serenity Prayer in an entirely different way, and how it was meant to be understood, I think.

Helena

October 29, 2010

Sorry to resurrect this thread, I really need to get this part right. Perhaps I should change the subject to values versus positive thinking?I've always thought that ACT is all about committing valued actions in the physical realm as opposed to in the thoughts realm. However, Russ' reply below seems to suggest that one can commit to valued actions in one's mind as well.Please work with me in this example. Let's say I'm stuck in a situation where there's not much to do physically like waiting in the airport and there's nobody around to talk to. After some trigger, the mind rants and the ugly feelings come. Step one would be to contact the present moment through noticing body sensations and environment. Practice expansion and make room for the scary feelings no matter how they persist. Then it's time to contact values, but there's nothing physical to do except in the mental realm. Is it okay for me to engage in topics that I value, like thinking about increasing my company's profit or playing with my daughter? How would that be different from practicing positive thinking? Is it ACT consistent for me to steer the thoughts toward the positive facts about my company, think about maneuvers within my control, and defuse from thoughts about undesirable possibilities that are beyond my control? This value versus positive thinking question has been in my mind for about a week, so I will greatly appreciate anyone's comments.Best Regards,MerlinPowered by Telkomsel BlackBerryÂ®Sender: ACT_for_the_Public Date: Mon, 25 Oct 2010 10:07:50 +0800To: <ACT_for_the_Public >ReplyTo: ACT_for_the_Public Subject: RE: Control vs. riding the wave Yes, we do have a fair degree of control over our â€˜mentalactionsâ€™; another name for this is â€˜thinkingâ€™. But we have nowhere near as muchcontrol over our thinking as most of us would like to have. If I ask you tothink about your summer holidays for the next half an hour, you can do that. Thepoint is, as you do so, lots of irrelevant thoughts will automatically â€˜pop upâ€™,out of your conscious control. Consciously clarifying your values and usingthem to set goals goals would be an example of controlling your â€˜mental actionâ€™or â€˜thinkingâ€™. And notice how very commonly, as you start doing such work, allsorts of unwanted thoughts just pop up, automatically - out of your conscious control(e.g. this is too hard; I canâ€™t do it; are these my real values?)ACT only suggests you relinquish control of thoughts under veryspecific circumstances - when:a) Control is impossible, orb) Control is possible, but the control strategies get in the wayof living a rich full and meaningful lifeIt is that creates The Happiness Trap. Hope this helps,Cheers, Russ www.actmindfully.com.auwww.thehappinesstrap.com From: ACT_for_the_Public [mailto:ACT_for_the_Public ] On Behalf Of metta.freedom@...Sent: Monday, 25 October 2010 9:00 AMTo: ACT_for_the_Public Subject: Re: Control vs. riding the wave Do we have control over purely physical actions or can we control mentalactions as well?Mental variables are thoughts and feelings. If we attempt to control mentalactions, how do we not fall into the " happiness trap " by controllingfeelings and thoughts?If we can only control physical actions, how about people with hardly anyphysical control like Hawkings?Powered by Telkomsel BlackBerryÂ® Sender: ACT_for_the_Public Date: Mon, 25 Oct 2010 06:46:41 +0800To: <ACT_for_the_Public >ReplyTo: ACT_for_the_Public Subject: RE: Control vs. ridingthe wave I think folks sometimes forget there isa huge amount of control in ACT. ACT asks you to focus your time and energy onwhat you have most control over in life â€“ i.e. your actions. The more youfocus on what is in your control â€“ your actions - the greater your â€˜senseof self-controlâ€™. And of course, the more you focus on what is largely out ofyour control â€“ most of your thoughts and feelings â€“ the moreâ€˜out-of-control you feel. All the best,Cheers, Russ www.actmindfully.com.auwww.thehappinesstrap.com From: ACT_for_the_Public [mailto:ACT_for_the_Public ] On Behalf Of hbbrSent: Monday, 25 October 2010 2:44 AMTo: ACT for the PublicSubject: Re: Control vs. riding the wave Hi , It's funny, but when you give up needing/tryingto be in control, you actually become more in control! I think we allneed to feel some semblance of control, and that's OK, I think, as long asyou hold it lightly. So be kind to yourself and treasure those moments ofbeing fully present! You can build on that, for sure. Helena Control vs. riding the wave I had another moment of success last night. Imust admit that I have not been practicing much lately. I drove to the grocerystore and felt my old nervousness (I had a panic attack in that store the lasttime I was there). As I was driving, I told myself that I was choosing to go tothe store, and that I could choose to leave anytime I wanted (something Ilearned from CBT for panic disorder). Something shifted, and I felt more in control.I did not panic and paid more attention to what I was doing and what was aroundme (as in, Notice 5 things).My life the past couple months has felt out of control. The demons on the boat(I like that analogy) were controlling my life. My panic felt like an externalentity, like a monster that was tormenting me daily.For me, learned helplessness seems to be part of it. I learned that I washelpless in the face of these demons; I felt I could not cope with panic orwith life.I have had moments of being fully present with my pain and anxiety (I used thehealing hand at times). Sometimes it helped and sometimes it didn't. I knowthat is to be expected. However, I feel I need to have some semblance ofcontrol in order to function and move towards a productive life again. This maynot be in alignment with ACT principles, but this is where I am right now.~ lisa

October 30, 2010

True Helena, they're value-guided actions. Prior to this discussion, I would label many items as control strategies, especially these three from Russ' list that echo well with the notorious 'Law of Attraction' (touchy subject?):âˆ™Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Think about what I am grateful forâˆ™Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Replay fond memoriesâˆ™Â Â Â Â Â Â Â . Practice self-compassionNow I can imagine doing 'thinking about what I'm grateful for' in service of some personal value and choose to persist in doing so when negative thoughts and actions arise. Defusion and expansion will be deployed as the situation calls in order to commit to the valued action. Before, I would scramble to find something physical to do because I thought the mental realm is only suitable for "non-action" approach.I dare myself to say that this is the part where powerful stuffs can then be integrated into ACT main structure. Pardon me for sharing my personal belief: I agree with some classical spiritual traditions that maintain that you will eventually manifest (or merge with) whatever object you persistently meditate on. Knowing that I can pick an object of meditation that fits with my value is like having a big storage of goodies suddenly opening in front of me. Cheers,MerlinPowered by Telkomsel BlackBerryÂ®Sender: ACT_for_the_Public Date: Sat, 30 Oct 2010 14:32:46 +0000 (UTC)To: ACT for the Public<ACT_for_the_Public >ReplyTo: ACT_for_the_Public Subject: Re: Re: Control vs. riding the wave Values just seem to be scary when we struggle with naming them, not to mention defining the word "value". After all, they just reflect what we really want out of life. BTW, the list Russ posted are not values, but value-guided activities. The value might be making good use of time, as when waiting in the airport. Helena Control vs. riding the wave> > > > I had another moment of success last night. I must admit that I have not been practicing much lately. I drove to the grocery store and felt my old nervousness (I had a panic attack in that store the last time I was there). As I was driving, I told myself that I was choosing to go to the store, and that I could choose to leave anytime I wanted (something I learned from CBT for panic disorder). Something shifted, and I felt more in control. I did not panic and paid more attention to what I was doing and what was around me (as in, Notice 5 things).> > My life the past couple months has felt out of control. The demons on the boat (I like that analogy) were controlling my life. My panic felt like an external entity, like a monster that was tormenting me daily.> > For me, learned helplessness seems to be part of it. I learned that I was helpless in the face of these demons; I felt I could not cope with panic or with life.> > I have had moments of being fully present with my pain and anxiety (I used the healing hand at times). Sometimes it helped and sometimes it didn't. I know that is to be expected. However, I feel I need to have some semblance of control in order to function and move towards a productive life again. This may not be in alignment with ACT principles, but this is where I am right now.> > ~ lisa>

October 30, 2010

Hi Merlin,

That was a great list from Russ, showing many simple ways in which we can act and think in accordance with our values. Whatever your personal beliefs, no need to apologize; if they are important to you, you can and should associate them with your values.

I think labels can be misleading since they don't come in one flavor as in "one label fits all" in a particular category. A lot depends on your purpose--why you take a certain action. For avoidance or not, for example.

Enjoy picking from your goody box!Helena

P.S. I hope you don't mind my asking: Is Merlin a male or a female name? Not that it matters--just curious!

Control vs. riding the wave> > > > I had another moment of success last night. I must admit that I have not been practicing much lately. I drove to the grocery store and felt my old nervousness (I had a panic attack in that store the last time I was there). As I was driving, I told myself that I was choosing to go to the store, and that I could choose to leave anytime I wanted (something I learned from CBT for panic disorder). Something shifted, and I felt more in control. I did not panic and paid more attention to what I was doing and what was around me (as in, Notice 5 things).> > My life the past couple months has felt out of control. The demons on the boat (I like that analogy) were controlling my life. My panic felt like an external entity, like a monster that was tormenting me daily.> > For me, learned helplessness seems to be part of it. I learned that I was helpless in the face of these demons; I felt I could not cope with panic or with life.> > I have had moments of being fully present with my pain and anxiety (I used the healing hand at times). Sometimes it helped and sometimes it didn't. I know that is to be expected. However, I feel I need to have some semblance of control in order to function and move towards a productive life again. This may not be in alignment with ACT principles, but this is where I am right now.> > ~ lisa>

October 31, 2010

Hi Helena,

I have to admit, I felt a flicker of nervousness when you said

this:

Â â€˜these three from Russ' list that echo well with the

notorious 'Law of Attraction' (touchy subject?):

âˆ™ Think about what I am grateful for

âˆ™ Replay fond

memoriesâˆ™

.. Practice self-compassion

When I do these activities I am in no way operating on the â€˜law

of attractionâ€™ â€“ a â€˜lawâ€™ which basically seems to state (in books such as Â The

Secret) that you can have whatever you want if you only believe it enough.

These activities above â€“ at least, as I do them - are not an attempt

to manifest objects through the power of thought alone â€“ they simply represent

mental activites that I do in line with important values such as gratitiude,

appreciation, and compassion.

Of course, itâ€™s okay for you to share your personal belief on

this list. And Iâ€™m wary that I might be perceived as attacking it. I hope you

donâ€™t feel attacked as you read on. Itâ€™s absolutely okay for us to have

differing beliefs, and to share them on this list. My aim in this post s not to

attack or denigrate your belief, but is simply to make crystal clear the major distinctions

between ACT and the â€˜law of attractionâ€™.

Firstly, itâ€™s worth noting that the super-rich authors of â€˜The

Law of Attractionâ€™ and â€˜The Secretâ€™ did not get rich purely by meditating on being

wealthy. They got rich by taking action to write and promote and create and

sell and market their books and products. No one ever got a loving longterm relationship

just by meditating on it â€“ you have to take action Â to make it work. No one

ever got a healthy body just by meditating on it â€“ you have to take action to

exercise and eat well etc. No guru or rinpoche or lama or zen master or swami ever

got an ashram or a temple just by meditating on it â€“ they went out and taught

and preached and gathered together disciples, students and patrons to finance

the building of such places.

It is no â€˜secretâ€™ that doing mental activities such as creating

a long term vision, forming action plans, thinking about what you want to

achieve and strategising about how you want to achieve it is, is very helpful

in helping you to achieve your goals. This is basic behavioural activation â€“ we

do a lot of this in ACT. And itâ€™s no â€˜secretâ€™ that thinking about what you want

in life can help you to stay focused and motivated, and to notice and take

advantage of relevant opportunities when they arise, thereby increasing your

chances of attaingin your golas. (Notice the word â€˜canâ€™ in that sentence â€“ it â€˜canâ€™

help you, but if you get too fused with what you wnat in life, it can also be

very unhelfpful!) However, recognising how these thinking strategies can help

is a long way from the extreme viewpoints of proponents of the â€˜law of

attractionâ€™.

I personally have seen clients massively and needlessly increase

their suffering through buying into the â€˜law of attractionâ€™. Hereâ€™s one example

â€“ a client who got repeatedly violently raped by her father from age 4 to age

15. After reading about the Â â€˜law of attractionâ€™ she came to the conclusion

that she Â must have attracted this to herself â€“ at some level she must have

wanted it to happen, and thus manifested it through her own thoughts. As you

can imagine, she was racked with guilt and anxiety over this idea. Â Another

client was recovering from obsessive compulsive disorder, OCD, when she read â€˜The

Secretâ€™ â€“ and it set her back, big time. Why? Because Â the law of attraction

states that if you believe something enough it will come true; it will happen;

it will manifest in reality. But successful recovery from OCD happens when you

realise that even though youâ€™ve been believing 100% for years upon years that

this really bad stuff will happenÂ - that youâ€™ll get HIV, or your house will

burn down, or your kids will die â€“ it does NOT actually manifest in reality.

SO once again, hoping you donâ€™t feel attacked, and Iâ€™m very

sorry if you do. I just felt compelled to tease out the enormosu differences

between ACT and the law of attraction.

All the best,

Cheers,

Russ