Re: types of mold that have caused sickness

December 11, 2008

Carl, Branislav and others,

Thanks for the invitation to participate! Trained as an organic

chemist, I do have some opinions.

Ammonia and formaldehyde are both gases at room temperature. What

people think of as " ammonia " and " formaldehyde " are actually solutions

of the gases in water.

What determines the volatility of a liquid is its boiling point. If a

" liquid " (like the hydrocarbon butane) boils below room temperature,

it is actually a gas at room temperature and pressure.

Butane in lighters is a good example of a highly " volatile " liquid. In

the lighter, it is under pressure but as soon as the valve is opened,

the pressure is reduced and the liquid starts to boil, becoming the

vapor that is ignited by the spark and consumed in the flame.

Liquids like methanol (wood alcohol), chloroform, acetone (nail polish

remover) and ether boil just above room temperature and are extremely

volatile. As a teacher (before I became chemically sensitive!), I used

to demonstrate the volatility of these solvents by splashing a little

on the blackboard; they would evaporate almost instantly.

Semivolatile organic compounds can be either liquids or solids at room

temperature, though most are liquids. (EPA has a list of pollutant

semivolatiles at:

http://74.125.47.132/search?q=cache:tKKoKABn-cYJ:www.epa.gov/reg3hscd/bfs/region\

al/analytical/semi-volitile.htm+what+is+a+semivolatile+organic & hl=en & ct=clnk & cd=\

1 & gl=us), and there are probably tens if not hundreds of thousands more organic

compounds that could be classified as semi-volatile.(Moth balls like napthalene

and paradichlorobenzene are semi-volatile solids you can

smell.)

Few if any of the highly toxic mycotoxins are volatile or even

semi-volatile; most (possibly all) are non-volatile, so exposure to

" vapors " of mycotoxins is not possible under normal temperature

conditions.(Of course, exposure to particles containing mycotoxin is

another issue entirely, and can be a very significant source of

exposure.)

Many of the microbial volatile organic compounds (MVOCs) fall into the

category of solvents. These are not generally regarded as highly toxic

(in the traditional sense)and I think that it is a mistake to assume

that MVOCs are a significant cause of mold illnesses. (There has been

some discussion of benzene with respect to MVOCs, and although this

hydrocarbon is a volatile solvent and carcinogenic, it is NOT an MVOC!

There is more benzene in a garage from gasoline evaporating than you

will ever see from mold growth.)

I have been in thousands of moldy environments where I have taken

multiple air and dust samples. In about half of these environments

where people were sick from mold exposure, there was not even a mold

(MVOC) odor!

I do believe (and I have seen) that there are cases of individuals who

are chemically hypersensitive and where MVOCs play a role in their

symptoms such as headaches or sinus problems, but in the large

majority of mold situations, particles (spores, microparticles, hyphal

fragments, etc.) are the culprits.

I believe that focusing attention on MVOCs as a major source of mold

illness is a waste of resources. There is very little evidence that

MVOCs (at typicla indoor concentrations) cause health symptoms, but

there are volumes of evidence that enzymes and other proteins,

endotoxins, glucans and mycotoxins cause health symptoms, and concerns

should be focused on these substances.

May

May Indoor Air Investigations LLC

Tyngsborough, MA

www.mayindoorair.com

www.myhouseiskillingme.com

978-649-1055

>

> RE: TYPES OF MOLD THAT HAVE CAUSED SICKNESS

>

> POSTED BY: \ " BRANISLAV\ " AREALIS@...

> EAGLEROCK5000

>

> Wed Dec 10, 2008 2:39 pm (PST)

>

> Carl,

>

> I agree, there are definitely semi-VOCs. In fact I think the most

> problematic microbial volatile compounds are semi-volatile, which is

> why they are so hard to get rid of. If they were totally volatile

> they

> would evaporate in several hours or days.

>

> Do you happen to know which micribial compounds can be classified as

> semi-volatile? Is there some list of these microbial semi-volatiles?

>

> -Branislav

>

December 11, 2008

, My garage is not closed off completely from basement and

basement air can get up into the house right now. Something on a list

of things to solve. It sounds from your post that gasoline from my car

can get into the house therefore. Does that sound likely or is it too

heavy to rise up into the house? If so, I need to find some way to at

least temporarily block air coming from garage. Thanks

(There has been

> some discussion of benzene with respect to MVOCs, and although this

> hydrocarbon is a volatile solvent and carcinogenic, it is NOT an MVOC!

> There is more benzene in a garage from gasoline evaporating than you

> will ever see from mold growth.)

December 11, 2008

Jeff, When you say 'proteins' can cause health problems in the air,

would that include cat dander? Dust mites would be protein but since

they aren't floating in air, perhaps their excrement contains proteins,

or dust mites are not a source of allergy due to proteins? Thanks

>

there are volumes of evidence that enzymes and other proteins,

> endotoxins, glucans and mycotoxins cause health symptoms, and concerns

> should be focused on these substances.

December 11, 2008

Barb,

Expanding spray foam can block just about any kind of infiltration if you

can get it into the right places as you spray it. (which sometimes can be

tricky)

Even the canned " Great Stuff " foam works very well at this.. (but you need

to continuously ventilate - well for 3-4 days after you spray it because it

emits toxic smalls as it cures.. )

> I need to find some way to at least temporarily block air coming from

> garage. Thanks

>

December 11, 2008

Thanks, Jeff. I learned a lot from your excellent explanation, as

always!

Carl Grimes

Healthy Habitats LLC

-----

>

> Carl, Branislav and others,

>

> Thanks for the invitation to participate! Trained as an organic

> chemist, I do have some opinions.

>

> Ammonia and formaldehyde are both gases at room temperature. What

> people think of as " ammonia " and " formaldehyde " are actually solutions

> of the gases in water.

>

> What determines the volatility of a liquid is its boiling point. If a

> " liquid " (like the hydrocarbon butane) boils below room temperature,

> it is actually a gas at room temperature and pressure.

>

> Butane in lighters is a good example of a highly " volatile " liquid. In

> the lighter, it is under pressure but as soon as the valve is opened,

> the pressure is reduced and the liquid starts to boil, becoming the

> vapor that is ignited by the spark and consumed in the flame.

>

> Liquids like methanol (wood alcohol), chloroform, acetone (nail polish

> remover) and ether boil just above room temperature and are extremely

> volatile. As a teacher (before I became chemically sensitive!), I used

> to demonstrate the volatility of these solvents by splashing a little

> on the blackboard; they would evaporate almost instantly.

>

> Semivolatile organic compounds can be either liquids or solids at room

> temperature, though most are liquids. (EPA has a list of pollutant

> semivolatiles at:

> http://74.125.47.132/search?q=cache:tKKoKABn-cYJ:www.

> epa.gov/reg3hscd/bfs/regional/analytical/semi-volitile.

htm+what+is+a+semivolatile+organic & hl=en & ct=

> clnk & cd=1 & gl=us), and there are probably tens if not hundreds of thousands

more organic compounds that

> could be classified as semi-volatile.(Moth balls like napthalene and

paradichlorobenzene are semi-volatile

> solids you can

> smell.)

>

> Few if any of the highly toxic mycotoxins are volatile or even

> semi-volatile; most (possibly all) are non-volatile, so exposure to

> " vapors " of mycotoxins is not possible under normal temperature

> conditions.(Of course, exposure to particles containing mycotoxin is

> another issue entirely, and can be a very significant source of

> exposure.)

>

> Many of the microbial volatile organic compounds (MVOCs) fall into the

> category of solvents. These are not generally regarded as highly toxic

> (in the traditional sense)and I think that it is a mistake to assume

> that MVOCs are a significant cause of mold illnesses. (There has been

> some discussion of benzene with respect to MVOCs, and although this

> hydrocarbon is a volatile solvent and carcinogenic, it is NOT an MVOC!

> There is more benzene in a garage from gasoline evaporating than you

> will ever see from mold growth.)

>

> I have been in thousands of moldy environments where I have taken

> multiple air and dust samples. In about half of these environments

> where people were sick from mold exposure, there was not even a mold

> (MVOC) odor!

>

> I do believe (and I have seen) that there are cases of individuals who

> are chemically hypersensitive and where MVOCs play a role in their

> symptoms such as headaches or sinus problems, but in the large

> majority of mold situations, particles (spores, microparticles, hyphal

> fragments, etc.) are the culprits.

>

> I believe that focusing attention on MVOCs as a major source of mold

> illness is a waste of resources. There is very little evidence that

> MVOCs (at typicla indoor concentrations) cause health symptoms, but

> there are volumes of evidence that enzymes and other proteins,

> endotoxins, glucans and mycotoxins cause health symptoms, and concerns

> should be focused on these substances.

>

> May

> May Indoor Air Investigations LLC

> Tyngsborough, MA

> www.mayindoorair.com

> www.myhouseiskillingme.com

> 978-649-1055

>

> >

> > RE: TYPES OF MOLD THAT HAVE CAUSED SICKNESS

> >

> > POSTED BY: \ " BRANISLAV\ " AREALIS@...

> > EAGLEROCK5000

> >

> > Wed Dec 10, 2008 2:39 pm (PST)

> >

> > Carl,

> >

> > I agree, there are definitely semi-VOCs. In fact I think the most

> > problematic microbial volatile compounds are semi-volatile, which is

> > why they are so hard to get rid of. If they were totally volatile

> > they

> > would evaporate in several hours or days.

> >

> > Do you happen to know which micribial compounds can be classified as

> > semi-volatile? Is there some list of these microbial semi-volatiles?

> >

> > -Branislav

> >

>

December 11, 2008

Barb,

Many allergens are proteins. Enzymes are a particular class of

proteins that catalyze chemical reactions like digestion. Cat and dog

dander contain protein allergens. The principal mite allergens are

proteases(protein digestive enzymes) and many mold allergens are

enzymes as well.

The dust mite allergens are mostly on the surface of the fecal

pellets but they are also within. Same for many mold allergens in and

on spores.

An interesting point about enzymes is that the reactions they

catalyze all take place in water so they must be soluble. This means

that enzymes dissolve and spread onto the mucous membranes when

inhaled.

Jeff

May Indoor Air Investigations

www.myhouseiskillingme.com

> >

> there are volumes of evidence that enzymes and other proteins,

> > endotoxins, glucans and mycotoxins cause health symptoms, and

concerns

> > should be focused on these substances.

>

December 11, 2008

Barb,

Infltration of vapors and gases from garages is very common. When

carbon monoxide detectors were first required (in Chicago I believe)

there were supposedly many " false " alarms. It was later learned that

the alarms were not false at all and that CO from garages was being

detected. So they made the alarms less sensitive!

Make the door tighter if you can.

Jeff

May Indoor Air Investigations

www.myhouseiskillingme.com

> (There has been

> > some discussion of benzene with respect to MVOCs, and although

this

> > hydrocarbon is a volatile solvent and carcinogenic, it is NOT an

MVOC!

> > There is more benzene in a garage from gasoline evaporating than

you

> > will ever see from mold growth.)

>

December 14, 2008

Just think about the carbon monoxide brought into the house when you move the

car in or out of the garage...

From: barb1283 <barb1283@...>

Subject: [] Re: TYPES OF MOLD THAT HAVE CAUSED SICKNESS

Date: Thursday, December 11, 2008, 12:07 PM

, My garage is not closed off completely from basement and

basement air can get up into the house right now. Something on a list

of things to solve. It sounds from your post that gasoline from my car

can get into the house therefore. Does that sound likely or is it too

heavy to rise up into the house? If so, I need to find some way to at

least temporarily block air coming from garage. Thanks

(There has been

> some discussion of benzene with respect to MVOCs, and although this

> hydrocarbon is a volatile solvent and carcinogenic, it is NOT an MVOC!

> There is more benzene in a garage from gasoline evaporating than you

> will ever see from mold growth.)

December 20, 2008

Jeff,

Sorry for the significant delay in responding to your very interesting

post.

>Few if any of the highly toxic mycotoxins are volatile or even

>semi-volatile; most (possibly all) are non-volatile, so exposure to

> " vapors " of mycotoxins is not possible under normal temperature

>conditions.(Of course, exposure to particles containing mycotoxin is

>another issue entirely, and can be a very significant source of

>exposure.)

As a former chemist I agree with everything you said until that point.

However, as a mold sensitive person I can't agree with the text that

begins from here:

>Many of the microbial volatile organic compounds (MVOCs) fall into

>the category of solvents. These are not generally regarded as highly

>toxic (in the traditional sense)and I think that it is a mistake to

>assume that MVOCs are a significant cause of mold illnesses. (There

>has been some discussion of benzene with respect to MVOCs, and

>although this hydrocarbon is a volatile solvent and carcinogenic, it

>is NOT an MVOC! There is more benzene in a garage from gasoline

>evaporating than you will ever see from mold growth.)

Apart from myself there are at least four persons in this group who

are extremely sensitive to mold, so much sensitive that if you give us

several objects of which only one is contaminated with mold toxins, we

can tell you from a few meters distance which object is the " bad one " .

It can be done in a room without any air current, so that dispersion

of fine particles is not possible. We will also detect the

contamination of the contaminated objects if they are wrapped in

plastic foil or enclosed in a cardboar box - because the offensive

volatile compound easily penetrates soft plastic and paper.

I think you would agree that the fact that we can feel the

contamination from such a distance WITHOUT any air current, and even

through plastic foil, can mean only one thing - we can sense a

volatile or semi-volatile compound.

Since real mycotoxins should be practically totally non-volatile, it

seems we react to MVOCs. But, we also usually don't sense any specific

odor when we feel the reaction. So, it is still a mystery what class

of chemical compounds make us ill. Is it MVOCs or some other

semi-volatile compounds produced by molds? I know for a fact that

ordinary MVOCs from moldy food or even slightly moldy wood that can be

found in the forest doesn't make me ill.

My assumption is that we react only to a certain class of MVOCs, and

that we react to such small concentrations of these substance that are

far below the odor detection limit.

Or, perhaps we react to some semi-volatile compounds that don't

strictly belong to MVOCs but are precursors for the generation of real

mycotoxins. One interesting example I recently found would be

trichodiene - a volatile diene (hydrocarbon) that is a building block

and precursor for trichothecenes. Scientists describe it as a

non-toxic metabolite, but for sensitized individuals like myself - who

knows?

http://moldenvironment.com/main/index.php?option=com_content & task=view & id=1121 & I\

temid=128

>I have been in thousands of moldy environments where I have taken

>multiple air and dust samples. In about half of these environments

>where people were sick from mold exposure, there was not even a mold

>(MVOC) odor!

I know exactly what you mean. There can be mold odor but people may

not experience any health problems, and vice versa.

However, I don't think that that is a proof that volatile and

semi-volatile compounds don't play a significant role in mold

sickness. As I said, I strongly believe that only very specific

volatile compounds are problematic, while the vast majority of smelly

MVOCs have little potential to cause problems. Also, it could be that

the concentration of the most offending MVOCs is just far below the

odor treshhold.

I suggest you read this article:

http://home-improvement-on-a-budget.blogspot.com/2008/06/odors-from-hidden-mold-\

and-your-health.html

>I do believe (and I have seen) that there are cases of individuals

>who are chemically hypersensitive and where MVOCs play a role in

>their symptoms such as headaches or sinus problems, but in the large

>majority of mold situations, particles (spores, microparticles,

>hyphal fragments, etc.) are the culprits.

Actually, I believe you are mistaken if you downplay the importance of

volatile mold compounds. While I don't doubt that spores and other

fungal particles can carry mycotoxins on themselves, the problematic

volatile compounds can pose problems even after every trace of fungal

matter has been lost. These mysterious so-far unidentified volatile

compounds truly behave as a " vapor " or gas. Their offgassing increases

if the temperature is raised, but the typical rate at which they

evaporate is so slow that they would probably take years (if not

decades) to completely evaporate. I also think that if you could have

enough of these semi-volatile compounds they would be in liquid form

at room temperature. Liquid that evaporates VERY slowly. Hence they

are often mistaken for real mycotoxins.

Last year the semi-volatile compounds that came from the AC units in

the building near mine caused me much more symptoms than mere

headaches and sinus problems. I experienced alternating diarrhea and

severe constipation, extreme chronic fatigue, vision problems, tooth

decay, pain in the lungs and stomach - which later probably led to

ulceration...

The offending compound was definitely semi-volatile because it could

offgas from objects without the presence of any air current in an

enclosed space. It could easily be transferred from object to object.

Its cross-contamination potential was absolutely impressive. Paper and

plastic objects were the worst because they could " soak up " the

volatile compound the most. Eventually I discovered that it could be

destroyed with ammonia. That is something that wouldn't be possible

with trichothecenes, correct?

Also, please consider that your colleague Steve Temes from IEQuality

group has a completely opposite opinion on the significance of

MVOCs for mold sensitive people:

iequality/message/15803

iequality/message/15795

Recently I exchanged several public posts with him regarding

identification of the most problematic MVOCs that cause sensitisation

and which people usually mistake for trichothecene mycotoxins:

(from 2007)

iequality/message/14657

(from 2008)

iequality/message/18158

iequality/message/17618

I would really like to know which semi-volatile MVOCs are the real

culprit of my problems. I know that many other mold sensitive people

would like to know that too. However, at the moment the whole issue is

unclear and obscured because usually the word " mycotoxin " is used to

describe obviously volatile compounds. Nobody does any testing in

order to identify the real trouble makers among MVOCs.

-Branislav

December 20, 2008

Branislav, I agree with you completely. I have had the same type of

experiences/reactions.

________________________________

From: Branislav <arealis@...>

Sent: Saturday, December 20, 2008 3:38:16 PM

Subject: [] Re: TYPES OF MOLD THAT HAVE CAUSED SICKNESS

Jeff,

Sorry for the significant delay in responding to your very interesting

post.

>Few if any of the highly toxic mycotoxins are volatile or even

>semi-volatile; most (possibly all) are non-volatile, so exposure to

> " vapors " of mycotoxins is not possible under normal temperature

>conditions. (Of course, exposure to particles containing mycotoxin is

>another issue entirely, and can be a very significant source of

>exposure.)

As a former chemist I agree with everything you said until that point.

However, as a mold sensitive person I can't agree with the text that

begins from here:

>Many of the microbial volatile organic compounds (MVOCs) fall into

>the category of solvents. These are not generally regarded as highly

>toxic (in the traditional sense)and I think that it is a mistake to

>assume that MVOCs are a significant cause of mold illnesses. (There

>has been some discussion of benzene with respect to MVOCs, and

>although this hydrocarbon is a volatile solvent and carcinogenic, it

>is NOT an MVOC! There is more benzene in a garage from gasoline

>evaporating than you will ever see from mold growth.)

Apart from myself there are at least four persons in this group who

are extremely sensitive to mold, so much sensitive that if you give us

several objects of which only one is contaminated with mold toxins, we

can tell you from a few meters distance which object is the " bad one " .

It can be done in a room without any air current, so that dispersion

of fine particles is not possible. We will also detect the

contamination of the contaminated objects if they are wrapped in

plastic foil or enclosed in a cardboar box - because the offensive

volatile compound easily penetrates soft plastic and paper.

I think you would agree that the fact that we can feel the

contamination from such a distance WITHOUT any air current, and even

through plastic foil, can mean only one thing - we can sense a

volatile or semi-volatile compound.

Since real mycotoxins should be practically totally non-volatile, it

seems we react to MVOCs. But, we also usually don't sense any specific

odor when we feel the reaction. So, it is still a mystery what class

of chemical compounds make us ill. Is it MVOCs or some other

semi-volatile compounds produced by molds? I know for a fact that

ordinary MVOCs from moldy food or even slightly moldy wood that can be

found in the forest doesn't make me ill.

My assumption is that we react only to a certain class of MVOCs, and

that we react to such small concentrations of these substance that are

far below the odor detection limit.

Or, perhaps we react to some semi-volatile compounds that don't

strictly belong to MVOCs but are precursors for the generation of real

mycotoxins. One interesting example I recently found would be

trichodiene - a volatile diene (hydrocarbon) that is a building block

and precursor for trichothecenes. Scientists describe it as a

non-toxic metabolite, but for sensitized individuals like myself - who

knows?

http://moldenvironm ent.com/main/ index.php? option=com_ content & task=

view & id=1121 & Itemid=128

>I have been in thousands of moldy environments where I have taken

>multiple air and dust samples. In about half of these environments

>where people were sick from mold exposure, there was not even a mold

>(MVOC) odor!

I know exactly what you mean. There can be mold odor but people may

not experience any health problems, and vice versa.

However, I don't think that that is a proof that volatile and

semi-volatile compounds don't play a significant role in mold

sickness. As I said, I strongly believe that only very specific

volatile compounds are problematic, while the vast majority of smelly

MVOCs have little potential to cause problems. Also, it could be that

the concentration of the most offending MVOCs is just far below the

odor treshhold.

I suggest you read this article:

http://home- improvement- on-a-budget. blogspot. com/2008/ 06/odors-

from-hidden- mold-and- your-health. html